WAAAAARD! aka New Necron fluff.

[Grailkeeper]

Having had a look over the new necron fluff it seems to have been heavily "Warded".


In particular one character Trazyn the infinite Is going to cause some fanboy problems I predict. His collection of special items includes what is heavily implied to be a primarch as well as the preserved head of Sebastian Thor. I actually am more annoyed about the Head of Thor, this guy is a MASSIVE imperial hero, who to all intents and purposes ran the imperium at one stage. There is no way the imperium would let that go, and why would a necron want it? I could maybe see the attraction to a necron in having a being of great power like a Primarch under their control, but why would they want an imperial relic?I predict Trazyn will be the Necron Draigo when it comes to Fluff.



Thoughts?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Trazyn's kinda a hoarder. He likes collecting weird stuff. It's not "The Necrons" wanting the head, it's Trazyn, the individual, wanting the head. The Lords have personalities (well, they've had those before the 5th ed. 'dex too), and often times, eccentricities. Turns out spending millennia in a robot body can make you a little bit crazy!

Anyways, chances are the Imperium has no idea who took the head, where it's hidden, or even if it's gone. He could've just teleported in some scarabs to nab it for him. I don't think he'll be much of a Draigo (heck, even the Stormlord's fluff, while heavy handed, makes much mention of the guy's weakness as well as his strength). Ward isn't a universal constant, he can improve.

[Lexington]

A 5th Edition Codex - written by Mat Ward, no less - has terrible background?

Shocking.


Ward isn't a universal constant, he can improve.
Kinda says it all, don't it? Ward's writing isn't judged on quality, but on how much worse it could have been.

[PalinMoonstride]

They have to start hinting about primarchs here and there now if they want to bring them back in 6th or 7th edition.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Kinda says it all, don't it? Ward's writing isn't judged on quality, but on how much worse it could have been.

So true :')

[Gir]

Ward is the best Codex writer simply because of how much he pisses off hardcore nerds.

[eldargal]

This is probably true heh.

Ward is the best Codex writer simply because of how much he pisses off hardcore nerds.

I've not read the codex yet so I can't make a judgement, but who says the relics are genuine? It wouldn't be the first time a collector had fakes in his collection.;)

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Ward is the best Codex writer simply because of how much he pisses off hardcore nerds.

This is gold.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Ward is the best Codex writer simply because of how much he pisses off hardcore nerds.

Matt Ward is the king of trolls, he trolls an entire fandom mwahhhahahahahahah

[Deadlift]

What I have read in this months WD, I really like the fluff *ducks for cover*. The narrative style of the battle report and the short stories that go with it are great.
What I like so far is that the Crons have added flavour now, their fluff was once vanilla ice cream and now its Häagen-Dazs Bailys ice cream.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Ho-hum, another day, another dose of Matt Ward hate. Could someone start a thread complaining about how Gav Thorpe RUINED CSM FOREVER!!! while we're at it please? It'll save time.


Ward is the best Codex writer simply because of how much he pisses off hardcore nerds.

This is truth.


I actually am more annoyed about the Head of Thor, this guy is a MASSIVE imperial hero, who to all intents and purposes ran the imperium at one stage. There is no way the imperium would let that go

40K isn't real.

The reason for this happening is to show how hard the Necrons are. It's called

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect

And has been done purely to emphasise how dangerous the new Necrons are. It's the easiest way to get your new monster heel (in the bad guy sense) over with the fans.

What you are complaining about is actually called "writing", and there is something important you must remember. 40K doesn't belong to you. No matter how much money you spend, no matter how much time you invest, it's not yours and yours alone.


There is no way the imperium would let that go

is pure interpretation on your part. 40K isn't real; it's a game created by a company for the purpose of making money. In this case, by selling Necrons. How do we sell Necrons? By convincing the audience that they are a genuine threat in-universe, through the Fluff. Thus, the Necrons have Thor's head.

If GW wanted to, they can say that Necrons can have Guilliman's body and have stuck a Necron duplicate on Ultramar as a stealth attack unit. Why not? It's not real, it's just a story. If you like it or not, well that's neither here nor there. It's simply a question of taste.

I think I'm getting a little sick of all the hate dumb, fans getting angry about 40K like it's real. It's just writing, and yes, Matt Ward is a terrible writer of fiction. Complain about his dreadful purple prose, or his shocking use of hyperbole, or frankly anything at all other than "It ruins my suspension of disbelief!". Seriously, it's 40K. How on Earth can you have any disbelief left to suspend? According to the fluff Space Marines have a solidly fused ribcage for internal armour. Never mind the fact that the intercostal muscle between the ribs is WHAT WE USE TO BREATH. (See, that's where my suspension of disbelief kicks in).

It's like those people over here in the UK who watched BBC 1's "Merlin!, and complained that In Real Life, Guinevere wasn't black, despite the fact that THERE'S A TALKING FRAKKING DRAGON AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF WIZARDS DOING SPELLS!!! THERE IS NO REALISM HERE!!!

What this ultimately is, is a question of taste. Do you like snails ("realistic" fluff) or oysters ("high fantasy" fluff)? Matt Ward prefers oysters. Preferably rotten ones, but that's his taste. If it's not yours, find something else to do.

TL;DR version: More Matt Ward hate? Must be a day that ends in "y".

[Grailkeeper]

Meh I suppose asking for realism when it comes to undead future past robot zombies is a bit too much to ask.



I still reserve the right to be miffed on the internet.

[Fellend]

I'm more curious as to how this has gone by unnoticed. I guess that when entire starsystems disappear due to a mistake in the books it's not that strange to believe that they could steal a saints head but you'd think that someone would have noticed and started a crusade or two =)

[Anggul]

The Necron backstory (what we know of it so far) sounds infinitely better than the Grey Knight backstory, this hoarder guy's backstory actually sounds interesting, I don't understand what you find bad about it. A Necron Lord wants to hoard relics because they have personality now, what's wrong with that? It's not like he's running around the warp making gods his *****.

[Lexington]

How do we sell Necrons? By convincing the audience that they are a genuine threat in-universe, through the Fluff. Thus, the Necrons have Thor's head.
Heh. This seems up to the standard of those nitwits - grave robbery as the new gold standard of credible threat.


Seriously, it's 40K. How on Earth can you have any disbelief left to suspend?
To quote a favorite, "'Suspension of disbelief' is the natural reaction of a human being to a well-told story." What people are responding to isn't a lack of 'realism,' (c'mon, we're talking about a setting where space-faring races still settle conflict with knife fights), but the violation one feels when something that once had qualities to hook you emotionally is suddenly reduced to a grotesque, obvious sale. What 40K might have lacked in the questionably-valuable commodity of plausibility, it more than made up for by being resonant. Now the IP holders have decided that such quaint notions stand in the way of whatever cockamamie marketing scheme they've cooked up, and they're apparently quite happy to jettison it like so much detrius - much like the setting's creator, whose ***, you'll recall, they recently canned.


What this ultimately is, is a question of taste. Do you like snails ("realistic" fluff) or oysters ("high fantasy" fluff)?
I really don't get these descriptions of Ward's background as "high fantasy," "good vs. evil" or any of that other nonsense that so often gets attributed to him. "Bombastic," maybe, or "outsized," and definitely "stupid," but high fantasy's got an vital moral component that's completely absent from the background of Ward - or any other current Studio writer, for that matter.

More than anything with a quality literary genesis, the background of 5th Edition's pitiful Codexes resembles that of so many modern video games - stories of great, huffy protein sacks with simple emotions, pushed into conflict under thin pretenses for the simple sake of glorified boxing matches. I suspect this isn't coincidence, and that the objective here is to play to the XBox audiences, while also making their IP friendlier territory for licensees looking to play to similarly simple tastes.


Matt Ward is the king of trolls, he trolls an entire fandom
Pfff. Amateur hour. George Lucas has spent a mid-size nation's GDP to antagonize a fanbase fifty times the size of 40K's, and he's been doing it for over a decade. Ward doesn't even rate.

[wittdooley]

Sweet Lord... are we going to have more months of pubescent Mat Ward bashing.

If you're that much better, I suggest you send your drafts to GW.

Get over yourselves.

[eldargal]

Well there was also the fact it was a terrible, terrible show in many other ways.:p Actually I disliked that Guinevere was portrayed by a black actress not because it wasn't realistic (as you say, who cares, it is fantasy), but because if the BBC retold an African myth central to one of their cultures histories with a white actress playing the traditionally black heroine there would be outrage. From white intellectuals only, though. Really off topic though, sorry.



It's like those people over here in the UK who watched BBC 1's "Merlin!, and complained that In Real Life, Guinevere wasn't black, despite the fact that THERE'S A TALKING FRAKKING DRAGON AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF WIZARDS DOING SPELLS!!! THERE IS NO REALISM HERE!!!

[scadugenga]

@Malton: Dude, your anti, anti-Ward rant--when taken in consideration of your impassioned anti-GW-due-to-their-raving-sexism "Open Letter to GW" thread a few months back makes you look more than just a tad hypocritical. For those too new, or who may have forgotten, it's located here: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=11549

@Witt: Give it up, brother. People are going to criticize things they are bothered by. You do it yourself from time to time, and gods know I'm just as guilty. Since this is an online community of shared interest, it is exactly the place for them to be able to vent frustration amongst their peers.

Personally, I haven't read the fluff, so I have no idea on it's relative quality this time around.

I damn well know I'm not plucking down $33 for a codex on an army I have no interest in just to critique the author's well-established inability to write fluff.

Face it, Ward has earned the frustration and scorn from the playerbase.

And--I don't see either of you defending CS Goto's work... :rolleyes:

Edit: And utlimately, both of you, you choose what you want to read on the site. If you don't want to read about Ward, then don't read the post. If you choose to read an anti-Ward fluff rant, then that's on you guys, and not the author of said rant.

[eldargal]

Personally I think the new fluff sounds like an improvement, people keep talking about the old fluff being lovecraftian and terrifying but it was only if you wanted it to be. I just saw a bunch of boring robots killing stuff at the command of a bunch of extremely powerful beings that conveniently weren't warp entities that decided they preferred eating souls rather than feeding off suns. I think I'll give that a go myself, give up food for pixie dust just because.:rolleyes:

[scadugenga]

Personally I think the new fluff sounds like an improvement, people keep talking about the old fluff being lovecraftian and terrifying but it was only if you wanted it to be. I just saw a bunch of boring robots killing stuff at the command of a bunch of extremely powerful beings that conveniently weren't warp entities that decided they preferred eating souls rather than feeding off suns. I think I'll give that a go myself, give up food for pixie dust just because.:rolleyes:

The funny thing about it this is (to get tangental for a bit) a lot of people really dislike HP's writing style. It's a very love it or hate it kind of storytelling.

That, and the vast irony of how "geek-cool" it is to be down with the big slimy C, when so many of the "fans" have never read the actual work.

Or realize just how much of it is a "shared cosmology" that HP collaborated with other writer's of the age--including Robert E. Howard.

/tangent

[fuzzbuket]

Sweet Lord... are we going to have more months of pubescent Mat Ward bashing.

If you're that much better, I suggest you send your drafts to GW.

Get over yourselves.

necrons have taken over a few more worlds blah blah blah

have nice big necron battle story about cadia

expand on backstory and void dragon

section on how necrons are becoming more crazy/ individuial
----------------------------

flippin heck even if the guys collection was a inquisitor and a chaos marine, or even a chaos lord or marine captain. but a primarch and one of the greatest imperial heroes? thors head would be guarded so well that a full scale invasion of most of the segmentum solar would have to be invaded to even get close!

[Morgan Darkstar]

thors head would be guarded so well that a full scale invasion of most of the segmentum solar would have to be invaded to even get close!

"A Wizard Did It!"

[MaltonNecromancer]

Off topic
Actually I disliked that Guinevere was portrayed by a black actress not because it wasn't realistic (as you say, who cares, it is fantasy), but because if the BBC retold an African myth central to one of their cultures histories with a white actress playing the traditionally black heroine there would be outrage. From white intellectuals only, though. Really off topic though, sorry.


: Well, that's the cultural legacy of enslaving an entire race of people for you, then treating them like second-class citizens for no good reason for many hundreds of years. I like "Merlin" because it means Richard Wilson still gets work, and because I remember the dark, dark days of the 1990's when all we had on was "Quantum Leap" and "Star Trek: The Next Generation" *brrr*. I don't want to go back to that - two speculative fiction shows is not enough. Especially now I have "Fringe"...

On topic:
@Malton: Dude, your anti, anti-Ward rant--when taken in consideration of your impassioned anti-GW-due-to-their-raving-sexism "Open Letter to GW" thread a few months back makes you look more than just a tad hypocritical. For those too new, or who may have forgotten, it's located here: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.ne...ad.php?t=11549


I suppose so. Assuming endlessly bashing an individual person the same as bashing an artistic direction. Which I don't think it is, but then, there we are. All I really want is human female miniatures that aren't done like this:

http://www.overthinkingit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/hallecatwoman.jpg

Which I'm never, ever going to get from GW. Which makes me sad, because Infinity Miniatures are too expensive and metal. :(

[Uncle Nutsy]

"A Wizard Did It!"

best answer... ever!

[Fellend]

"A Wizard Did It!"

That Simpson episode was just on =)

[Lemt]

I didn't like GK and SoB fluff, but I must say I'm liking the new Necron fluff. Certainly a step forward from "we want to devour the galaxy, like the Tyranids".

[sangrail777]

Well, I got to say I do like the new Necron Fluff. The ideas and concept bring charector to an otherwise dull army. I liked the Necrons before and I think this is a good change. I'm very intrested in whats going to be in the codex.
My only problem so far is the Flayed Ones. Ehhh, I 2. These guys need something like a weapons upgrade, rending, I 4 at least. They just seem to lacking for a close combat unit. It be ok if they where troops I guess, but I think they are still elite.

[Luke Licens]

Pfff. Amateur hour. George Lucas has spent a mid-size nation's GDP to antagonize a fanbase fifty times the size of 40K's, and he's been doing it for over a decade. Ward doesn't even rate.

Quoted For Truth. :D

[Dastrike]

I will just say this one real fast, some players actually play the game for it's fluff and others play it for the competitive nature. There will be no true happy medium met from either side, so how about you pick up a real novel read it and then go roll some dice then argue over the rule set. Sounds like a solid Nerd afternoon.

[Hive Mind]

Hmm. I seem to have been repressed. Explain please mods.

How exactly is poking fun at people moaning about fluff they haven't read not relevant? Which board rules did I break?

[Morgan Darkstar]

Hmm. I seem to have been repressed. Explain please mods.

How exactly is poking fun at people moaning about fluff they haven't read not relevant? Which board rules did I break?

are you talking about this?



http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/10/10748/11006825.jpg


it's in the other thread! :D

[Hive Mind]

Yes, it seems that I'm unable to keep track of what thread I'm posting in after a few pops.

Apologies mods.

[Lockark]

So far I've been enjoying the Necron fluff. I hate to say it... But I legitimately think Ward wrote some GOOD fluff for once!
O____O

I feel alot of the hate at this point is people jumping on the Ward hate train.

Some wired fluff choices in C:SM, the stupid wargear names in C:BA, and finally the Khornet Grey Knights all bothered me. It was like every time he was trying to top him seld.

But so far thier hasn't been anything about the crons that have bothered me.

=O

I legit think Ward is Improving.

[Lane]

Ho-hum, another day, another dose of Matt Ward hate. Could someone start a thread complaining about how Gav Thorpe RUINED CSM FOREVER!!! while we're at it please? It'll save time.

I remember when Gav was writing Codex, I'd take him over Ward any day

Even though he is responsible for the idiotic mon-keigh joke.

[Lane]

Off topic
: Well, that's the cultural legacy of enslaving an entire race of people for you, then treating them like second-class citizens for no good reason for many hundreds of years.(

Dude, grow some balls.

Not all of us feel guilty about what people did in the past, nor do we feel ANY group deserves special treatment. You probably believe humans are responsible for Climate Change as well.

[Lockark]

Dude, grow some balls.

Not all of us feel guilty about what people did in the past, nor do we feel ANY group deserves special treatment. You probably believe humans are responsible for Climate Change as well.

So what your saying is that you don't accept science fact.... Are you some kind of nutter sitting around waiting for the second coming or something? Go back to your crazy person museum that claims Dinosaurs and Humans lived at the same time.


Oh hey. Look at that. I can also randomly drop politics into this thread, that has no reason to be here. Not to mentioning being controversial for the petite reason of trying to insult someone.

=|

Also please note. I don't have anything personal ageist you, nor do I have any attentions of talking about the semantics of Climate Change, Creationism, ect. I probably don't even necessarily disagree with some of your views. But the point is showing how quickly a thread can devolve when you start insulting people that way.

Unless of course that's what your trying to do. Then well... Congratulations I guess?

[JxKxR]

So what your saying is that you don't accept science fact.... Are you some kind of nutter sitting around waiting for the second coming or something? Go back to your crazy person museum that claims Dinosaurs and Humans lived at the same time.


This is BY FAR the best thing I have ever read on BoLS! :D

[Grailkeeper]

It doesn't take a farseer to see this ending up in the oubliette

[scadugenga]

I suppose so. Assuming endlessly bashing an individual person the same as bashing an artistic direction. Which I don't think it is, but then, there we are. All I really want is human female miniatures that aren't done like this:

http://www.overthinkingit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/hallecatwoman.jpg

Which I'm never, ever going to get from GW. Which makes me sad, because Infinity Miniatures are too expensive and metal. :(

Okay, a few things:

1) As the creator of the book, Ward is the architect of the"artistic direction" of the army. Art is more than pictures. As he's the sole person behind the artistic direction of the fluff, he's turned himself into a valid target for criticism of said direction.

2) Using a picture of DC's 52 Catwoman is not a valid comparison to 40k in any way, shape or form. It does nothing to validate your point or argument.

Infinity's not that much more expensive than 40k, these days. And as a small skirmish game, it's more affordable than 40k or WM/H.

To get offtopic with you--what, no Babylon 5 mention? Perhaps the best 90's sci-fi show period. :)

[eldargal]

Lets not start up about climate change, it is a far more complex issue than most people seem to realise and it is impossible to debate rationally because most people are too ideologically committed one way or the other.

Re: Ward, apparent most books are a group effort but there is only one main writer. Most of the background decisions have to be run past the head of IP or something as well, or so I was told. So Ward may be responsible in the sense that he wrote it but the fact it has gone to print indicates approval to some extent from the rest of the design studio/

[Kawauso]

I'm gonna chime in and say I like the new fluff. I'm glad Necrons have more to them now than being 'metal Tyranids'. And that all the lords seem to have fun, eccentric personalities, but the rank-and-file in the army are still soulless, silent robots.

That is all.

Mind you, I had almost no problems with the new GK fluff, either. The only thing that bugged me a little was Draigo writing his name on Mortarion's heart. But the rest all seemed fine to me.

I'm going to leave before I get stoned (by people suffering severe nerdrage) now. :)

[eldargal]

I like what I've heard so far as well, though I'm reserving final judgement until I've read it myself obviously. Even with GK it was only Draigo and the silliness with the SoB that bugged me, most of the background was fine. There are a few small things I dislike in practically every codex except the Eldar and Dark Eldar books. :rolleyes:

[MarneusCalgar]

I like the new background, even if it makes them be the New Tomb Kings of Space...

[Gotthammer]

Re: Ward, apparent most books are a group effort but there is only one main writer. Most of the background decisions have to be run past the head of IP or something as well, or so I was told. So Ward may be responsible in the sense that he wrote it but the fact it has gone to print indicates approval to some extent from the rest of the design studio/

See, my problem with Ward is his writing. So apparently this Necron has a primarch and Thor's head - so what? What does that add to the universe? It's the 40k version of a new character punching Superman out to show how badass they are.
He tends to put these bits in (like the BA/Cron teamup, GKs killing Sororitas) but not do anything with them. If it's just a "this up until now radically out of character/history changing/nearly impossible to explain thing happened" with no explaination it's dumb. Give me a reason how, why, and the effects it has.

If he'd explained why the Cron's and BA teamed up more than was said, I could buy it. If there was a reason why the incorruptable GKs would be corrupted where the Sororitas wouldn't be, tell us. And I'm hoping there is reason for how this lord got his hands on these great imprial relics more than just stating it as fact. Stating a retcon or major event as a fact and leaving at that is lazy writing.
It breaks the verisimilitude of the setting when it's just "these guys did this thing, despite it theoretically impossible and/or out of character, because that's what happened". If he'd said the GKs had killed the sisters for fear they'd fall, as even they were at risk, and their martyrdom gave their blood special properties to further protect the GKs, it'd work - the way it's written it doesn't.

Editorial concerns and page space obviously come into it, but I just don't like his writing for the most part.

[wittdooley]

You do understand that these are tiny *** entried in a codex, right?

Perhaps the real solution is for GW to say, "Eff all you internet whiners. Here are your rules. Screw your fluff."

I'll never quite understand it when people have a limit to which they're willing to extend their disbelief in 40k. Let me remind you this is a universe where 8-foot tall acid spitting superhumans fight 7 foot tall green monkey-men that are grown from spores and get larger based on how important they are.

"No! Draigo could not live like that. It just isn't possible!"

Facepalm.

[Gotthammer]

You do understand that these are tiny *** entried in a codex, right?

Yes, and if they'd been internally consistent or expanded thoughtfully on the background, I'd be interested. But they're just tacked on things that have huge consequences for the background as is, but aren't treated as anything more than footnotes. Also these tiny *** entries are the core of what the universe is built on, so when they don't make sense or contradict previous works, people question them.

For instance when Codex: Daemons introduced the idea that Nurgle keeps Isha prisoner, it was more than that - it explained why he was doing it (testing new plagues on her), and how it shaped the universe because of it (she sometimes is able to pass on cures to the mortal world). It's not simply a matter of "Nurgle is such a badass and rules diseases - he's so diseased that he's enslaved Isha to test plagues on."

It's not about suspension of belief, it's about consistency with itself - the writers have laid out certain groundrules for the universe, and this stuff contradicts them:

Angron, in the material world, took an entire company of Grey Knight Terminators to take out, with an entire army and the Space Wolves backing them up.
Compare to Draigo, who went to Mortarion's base, in the warp, fought his way through his guards single-handedly then defeated the Primarch himself, before escaping and being perfectly fine... I guess Mortarion and his crew were sick that day or sometihng (nyuk nyuk nyuk).

So yeah, if they're going to say a Daemon Primarch (or hell, a regular Primarch) is capable of destroying any non-Primarch opponent without too much trouble, and have examples of their actions standing as the gold standard of over the top annihilation for twenty years consistently, I will find it hard to believe this new guy could do all that in the given 'rules' of the setting.

[Dastrike]

You do understand that these are tiny *** entried in a codex, right?

Perhaps the real solution is for GW to say, "Eff all you internet whiners. Here are your rules. Screw your fluff."

I'll never quite understand it when people have a limit to which they're willing to extend their disbelief in 40k. Let me remind you this is a universe where 8-foot tall acid spitting superhumans fight 7 foot tall green monkey-men that are grown from spores and get larger based on how important they are.

"No! Draigo could not live like that. It just isn't possible!"

Facepalm.

You could easily do as such, to strip away all the fluff that most of this game is built around and just say "here is your straight rule set now sit down, shut up and roll your dice!"

To bring up that yes it is 8-foot tall acid spitting superhumans taking on the universe is no different then trying to tell people when something occurs in their Star Wars universe or their Star Trek universe. Yes some of the events that occur in either them can be beyond disbelief but isn't that why it is referred to as a world of sci-fi/fantasy because that is all that it is. Most of the players also read a lot of the novels that take you on adventures throughout the Warhammer 40k universe and then when something new comes out that takes what was written and throws it out the window they simply want to know what this is; for different reasons it can be a way for Games Workshop to build up some hype, or to instal a fail safe just in case sales for the game start sliding and they can bring it back by triggering said fail safes that have been implemented throughout a lot of the fluff. Who isn't to say that the Primarchs will return within the next three editions? It is just a simple fact of what can be going on and since none of us work for Games Workshop we can speculate.

A game with a story is more entertaining to play out then a game with nothing really there.

[eldargal]

But there is your problem, it occurred in the warp where there are no rules. Not in the material realm, not in an area where the warp leaks into the material realm but in the warp itself. Draigo was a little bubble of incorruptibility who got sucked into a realm of Chaos, ignoring the fact that for all we know it was a warp-delusion who is to say what might happen under those circumstances? For all we know the Chaos Gods let it happen for lulz. The Angron piece is different because it happened in the material realm or rules do apply, and Angron was both a primarch and a daemon so would be tough as something really tough.

It isn't my favourite piece of fluff but I really think people are making a mountain out of a molehill. It is one silly piece of fluff in a book that is largely extremely good.:)




It's not about suspension of belief, it's about consistency with itself - the writers have laid out certain groundrules for the universe, and this stuff contradicts them:

Angron, in the material world, took an entire company of Grey Knight Terminators to take out, with an entire army and the Space Wolves backing them up.
Compare to Draigo, who went to Mortarion's base, in the warp, fought his way through his guards single-handedly then defeated the Primarch himself, before escaping and being perfectly fine... I guess Mortarion and his crew were sick that day or sometihng (nyuk nyuk nyuk).

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I haven't even got to the end of this thread because I've just read some nobjockey comment about 'You don't own 40K, it isn't real you know blah blah blah'...

Why is there always some PEDANT pointing out obvious shyte like this? Do please leave the forums alone and masturbate quietly in the dark. This being a forum on a fictional world, EVERYONE can have an opinion and should be allowed to debate and talk AS IF THE 40K world WERE real without some smart arse gving it all, 'OH YOU AAAAARE A SAAAAD MAN FOR THINKING IT'S ALL REEEEEEAL, I'M SO CHUFFING INTELLECTUALLY SUPERIOR TO YOOOOO...' ad nauseum...just stick it up your bum mate...

Screw Ward's fluff, his rules are always mental, so you know this codex is going to be good. And Trayzn has got himself a big ole Primarch eh? Who do we want/not want it to be? WHo's in the running?

[wittdooley]

Screw Ward's fluff, his rules are always mental, so you know this codex is going to be good. And Trayzn has got himself a big ole Primarch eh? Who do we want/not want it to be? WHo's in the running?

I'm not British, so I never quite understand the context of mental.... It means good here, right? Ward's codecies have been the best of 5th edition, hands down (DE aside). He's the dude largely responsible for codecies where you can have multiple viable army build options.

I read nearly all the Black Library books, and If there was a 300 word entry in a codex about Dante and Hesperax having some kinky, rough sex, I'd hardly be bothered. Dude needs some play after being a Chapter Master for so long. That's why people getting so bent out of a shape over tiny entries regarding pragmatism (BA + Necron team up) or over-zealous mass murder (GK & Sisters) makes me roll my eyes. #Geddoverit.

And there's an entirely different thread regarding Trayzn, so I'd point you there for that discussion.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

So what your saying is that you don't accept science fact....

Man made climate change isn't a fact. There is actually more evidence to suggest it is a cyclical change in Earth's climate due to solar activity. There is no 'fact' when it comes to the real causes of climate change or if any actions we take can do anything about it.

Sorry, it just bugs me when people present that argument as fact.

[Gotthammer]

But there is your problem, it occurred in the warp where there are no rules. Not in the material realm, not in an area where the warp leaks into the material realm but in the warp itself. Draigo was a little bubble of incorruptibility who got sucked into a realm of Chaos, ignoring the fact that for all we know it was a warp-delusion who is to say what might happen under those circumstances? For all we know the Chaos Gods let it happen for lulz. The Angron piece is different because it happened in the material realm or rules do apply, and Angron was both a primarch and a daemon so would be tough as something really tough.

It isn't my favourite piece of fluff but I really think people are making a mountain out of a molehill. It is one silly piece of fluff in a book that is largely extremely good.:)


See, if it had said that Draigo was super powered himself due to being in the warp - drawing on the pure light of the Astronomicon or something - I'd be fine with it. But it doesn't.
Given there are descriptions of Daemon worlds that have things happening as per the material world (Black Sky, Dead Sun / Inquisition War / Grey Knights series), there's no basis to assume that's how Draigo won.

I'm not terribly upset by it, I've got my own personal canon, but it's not good writing to leave things full of gaping plot-holes.

[Drew da Destroya]

Man made climate change isn't a fact. There is actually more evidence to suggest it is a cyclical change in Earth's climate due to solar activity. There is no 'fact' when it comes to the real causes of climate change or if any actions we take can do anything about it.

Sorry, it just bugs me when people present that argument as fact.

Let's just stop now before the thread gets locked. Lock's comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek hyperbole for the purpose of making a point, so let it lie at that.


I'm not sure about the background yet. Like many others, I'll need to read the codex before making final judgments. I like that the Necron Lords are getting more interesting, but the whole "Thor's Head" thing gave me pause... How would he have even gotten it?

I also now wonder what they'll say, if anything, about the Dragon and the Outsider. Are they shards as well, now? I'd assume so, but still, lame. A chained god serving as the fuel for the Mechanicum's shared hallucination is a lot more interesting than a chained god's toenail.

Also, sure, GW can write whatever they want in their novels, codices, and whatever else they choose to publish, but if what they're writing is contradictory or overly ridiculous, it'll alienate their fanbase (see also customers and suckers). So sure, Dante and Lilith can get it on in whatever bizarre fanfic you have going, but if GW publishes something like that, it's so contradictory to both characters that the people who care about these things will be highly offended. And these little one-off unexplained pieces damage the overall "credibility" of the story being told by causing characters to act in an out-of-character fashion, or seemingly impossible things to happen.

[Lexington]

Perhaps the real solution is for GW to say, "Eff all you internet whiners. Here are your rules. Screw your fluff."
Or, as a business whose well-being depends on their customers' willingness to infuse them with cash, they could, say, address a deeply-held dissatisfaction with their products by adjusting the elements that are causing said dissatisfaction. I know it'd be hell on their corporate self-image as an immaculate entity, crafted wholly from the stuff of the divine, criticized only by the filthy and the indolent, but I'd call that a feature rather than a bug.

[Fellend]

To the people complaining about people complaining about the fluff: Basically it comes down to this. The world we invest emotions in suddenly takes a 180 turn and everything we know about it gets questioned: If Draigo is that mighty then why doesn't he help out more?
If Necrons invade Terra, why didn't they stop by and steal the Emperor's toilet?

Or incase you are interested in fluff I'll put it in simpler turns

Next episode of Grey's Anatomy: The chinese doctor is really a space dinosaur!
Next episode of Gossip Girl: Gossip Girl is revieled to be a space dinosaur!
Next episode of Dexter: Dexter is actually a space dinosaur!
Next episode of Twilight: Will Bella date Edward, Jacob or Rolf the Space dinosaur!
Star Wars Episode 7: It was Jar Jar Binks plan all along....

See how when you add really weird things into the story it turns really bad?
Especially when you then pretend that it never happened and the chinese doctor goes on to marry the space dinosaur and everyone pretends like this does not change things at all?

So yeah. Let people complain about space dinosaurs all they want. If you don't like it just say that you don't agree with them and leave them alone

[wittdooley]

Or, as a business whose well-being depends on their customers' willingness to infuse them with cash, they could, say, address a deeply-held dissatisfaction with their products by adjusting the elements that are causing said dissatisfaction. I know it'd be hell on their corporate self-image as an immaculate entity, crafted wholly from the stuff of the divine, criticized only by the filthy and the indolent, but I'd call that a feature rather than a bug.

Deep-Held dissatisfaction? Give. Me. A. Break.

The parts people get all yanked off about amounts to less than 3 full pages of codex fluff. It's laughable.

Felland...You analogy is poor. Making the leap in those shows to "space dinosaur" is absurd, clearly.

Blood Angels & Necrons (who we now know are clearly sentient, intelligent decision makers) team up due to pragmatic reasons to prevent their own annihilation - believeable.

Grey Knights killing allies to prevent demonic taint (heh, demonic taint) from getting out - believeable, as they DESTROY WHOLE WORLDS without thought.

Draigo, the biggest HardAzz of the most Badazz chapter, lost in the warp and being a warp-super hero - read that sentence. Does it even matter? For me it isn't that big a stretch. He's already a frakking superhuman... I'm sorry you didn't get your qualifying statement in his one page of fluff, Gotthammer. It was one page. A single page. Uno.

[Deadlift]

I really like the direction Matt Ward has taken the fluff, it's given the Necrons an identity that is unique now. The previous fluff as has been said was very similar to the Nids, in so far as both races were on a galaxy wide rampage, moving from one world to another destroying all life in the process. Not anymore.
The Necrons history with the old ones, the c'tan and the eldar now gives me more flavour and what their all about.
Each Overlord is unique now and each Necron world has it's own identity and purpose. Hell if you prefer your mindless automatons, their still there. Matts written that into the back story for one of the tomb worlds. Now however were able to
have a reason for having our own paint schemes etc. We can create our own Necron empire and justify it if we wish to (not something I care for tbh).
Obviously non of us have read the codex yet, but I am looking forward to it very much. Ok maybe some of what's written maybe a bit basic and OTT.
Personally im looking forward to reading my codex, painting some cool looking new stuff for my favourite army and then rolling some dice and having a beer with friends. Judging by Matt Wards previous work I suspect the Necrons are going to be much more fun now.

[Lockark]

Man made climate change isn't a fact. There is actually more evidence to suggest it is a cyclical change in Earth's climate due to solar activity. There is no 'fact' when it comes to the real causes of climate change or if any actions we take can do anything about it.

Sorry, it just bugs me when people present that argument as fact.

Realy Yes their is also a Solar Cycle. But we are also speeding up the Carbon Cycle with our actions. It's pretty well accepted it's multiple things at this point. But thier are aspects of climit change that we are in fact effecting.


But in the end you should read the rest of my post.


Oh hey. Look at that. I can also randomly drop politics into this thread, that has no reason to be here. Not to mentioning being controversial for the petite reason of trying to insult someone.



Now go back to your tuffo eating pinko hippy friends!
;)

[Hive Mind]

I adore the implication that a handful of people on the internet constitutes a "deep-held dissatisfaction" from the customer base.

Oh, the self-importance.

[Pendragon38]

you people can whine and cry all you want about ward. But like some of use we dont care its comming out and you cant do a damn thing about it. So pour yourself a pint and drink up for a new dex

[Lexington]

The parts people get all yanked off about amounts to less than 3 full pages of codex fluff.
Well, sure, the stand-out awfulness gets the intensity, but it's far from the only things people dislike about Ward's work. Midichlorians and Jar-Jar had the loudest denunciations back when Episode I was stinking up theaters, but that didn't make the inept storytelling and acting any better. If a semi crashes through one's house, it doesn't make the complaints any less sincere if they don't mention the debris. There's a huge hole! In the house! Etc.


I adore the implication that a handful of people on the internet constitutes a "deep-held dissatisfaction" from the customer base.
Yeaaaaaah, these threads just pop up across the intertubes - and cause enormous flamestorms that've caused popular forums to all but ban discussion of Ward's work - because there's just a couple of people who don't like the guy's beard or something. :rolleyes:

[Hive Mind]

Yeaaaaaah, these threads just pop up across the intertubes - and cause enormous flamestorms that've caused popular forums to all but ban discussion of Ward's work - because there's just a couple of people who don't like the guy's beard or something. :rolleyes:

Oooh my, not 'flamestorms' on the 'intertubes'. Won't somebody think of the children? The threads you talk of are conducted by a handful of loudmouthed, self-important posters. A drop in the ocean of GW's customer base. Just because they're the most vocal doesn't mean they're the most numerous.

But keeping on fighting the good fight, brother. I hope that one day you're as important as you seem to think you are. It will be a great day for Earth.

[Lexington]

The threads you talk of are conducted by a handful of loudmouthed, self-important posters. A drop in the ocean of GW's customer base. Just because they're the most vocal doesn't mean they're the most numerous.
That's the majority for you - always conveniently silent. :rolleyes:

Think us malcontents and rabble-rousers (or, 'self-important,' seemingly your favorite appellation) all you like, but the opinion's hardly a rare one. I've heard Ward's name cause a chorus of groans in game stores, and know players who've not even been in the game for a year that, very much of their own volition, hate his work. At least one well-loved BL author has canned a possible book series (http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/a-few-things/) because of the hack job Ward did on the GK book. Heck, even you don't seem much interested in defending the man's work so much as peevishly trashing people who voice discontent. His writing's clearly a net negative for the company - why keep him on for it?


I hope that one day you're as important as you seem to think you are. It will be a great day for Earth.
Now, now. I don't want the world. Just your half. ;)

[wittdooley]

His writing's clearly a net negative for the company - why keep him on for it?


What a foolish comment. Yes, please forget the fact that the whole of the codecies he's created have been fantastic in terms of game play. How many of those "groaners" or "rabble-rousers" are playing Blood Angels, or Space Marines, or Grey Knights? How many of them can even offer an informed opinion (and no, just because you wrote some fan-boy drivel doesn't make you a writer or a legitimate critiquer of others) on his writing? The fact that people complain SO much about the tiny amount they don't like (it isn't written poorly--people hate the hyperbole of it all) and conveniently forget the rest of the very capable codex really undermines those opinions.

Further, you extrapolate far too much from ADB post; he simply said that the fluff has changed. He doesn't place judgement on it at all. And it's true, it has changed. The Grey Knights have been presented as far more ruthless and perhaps less noble than previously. It would be easy for his plan to no longer fit within the newly established canon. He also notes that his first novel had grown to too great a length to potentially pursue more.

[Hive Mind]

That's the majority for you - always conveniently silent. :rolleyes:


The majority of GW customers don't even use websites like BoLS, Warseer et al. Assuming that they must, because you do, is just more self-importance. Sorry to keep using that but it fits you so well I'm unwilling to let it go.



Think us malcontents and rabble-rousers (or, 'self-important,' seemingly your favorite appellation) all you like, but the opinion's hardly a rare one. I've heard Ward's name cause a chorus of groans in game stores, and know players who've not even been in the game for a year that, very much of their own volition, hate his work. At least one well-loved BL author has canned a possible book series (http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/a-few-things/) because of the hack job Ward did on the GK book. Heck, even you don't seem much interested in defending the man's work so much as peevishly trashing people who voice discontent. His writing's clearly a net negative for the company - why keep him on for it?


I'm not interested in defending Ward's fluff. I think it's trash. That said, I think pretty much every written word that GW has ever produced that isn't a ruleset is total trash. Their ideas are good, if largely plagiarised, but the expression of them reads like a socially-retarded kid's English homework.

I take issue with your comments because you clearly assume that your opinion is so much weightier than anyone else's and you assume that you speak for everyone. You do not and no amount of anecdotal, hearsay 'evidence' will change that.

Oh, by the way; your claim about the Black Library 'author' (if you can correctly attach that word to someone who cranks out the literary abortions published by the Black Library) don't stand unless you stuff words into his mouth. Swing and a miss I'm afraid, lover.

[Lane]

So what your saying is that you don't accept science fact....

Oh hey. Look at that. I can also randomly drop politics into this thread, that has no reason to be here.

I do not doubt there is a shift in the climate, it happens on a regular basis.

What id dispute is man made change. Many of the claims are based on bad science and supported by suppressing alternate views/ discrediting opponents.

It's ironic that Al Gore made a statement that "people who disbelieve in [human caused] climate change are like racists'. Considering that racism was also supported by false claims and bad science.

The only human factors in climate change I know are fact are: It's big business and people are getting rich[er] often at the taxpayers expense.


As for randomly injecting politics Maltomeal played the "enslaving an entire race" card. That and he frequently spouts his "GW must hare women" crap when we all know they just want to sell toys to 14 year old boys.

[wittdooley]

Hive... You had me with you until your verbal assault of the Black Library.

A lot of it in the past has been bad. Perhaps even C.S. Goto would find your phrase "literary abortion" applicable...but presently? Come on, man.

As far as genre fiction goes, the recent Black Library offerings have been MORE than capable. Dembski-Bowden, in particular, has been pretty darn good. The last three or four Horus Heresy books have been really fantastic. They are certainly not "literary abortions." What, exactly, is your expectation of what the Black Library offers? Are any of their offerings going to win a Booker Prize, National Book Award, or Pulitzer? Perhaps not. But they're certainly in the running for Gemmels, Nebula's and Hugos. I've read both Windup Girl and Boneshaker, and yes, I believe A Thousand Sons is a better novel than both of them. IMO it will be a travesty if Prospero Burns isn't at least nominated for 2011, but I imagine the fact that the novels are part a series does not benefit them.

And for what it's worth... Heldenhammer, a Black Library novel by Graham McNeill, won the Gemmell in 09/10.

[Lexington]

What a foolish comment. Yes, please forget the fact that the whole of the codecies he's created have been fantastic in terms of game play.
Not talking about rules here, Witt - that's for different threads.


How many of those "groaners" or "rabble-rousers" are playing Blood Angels, or Space Marines, or Grey Knights?
Who knows? How many aren't playing these armies after reading the mess the Studio's made of the background lately? I know I aborted plans to get back into WHFB a few years back after flipping through Ward's O&G book, and vague notions of a Space Wolf force evaporated on contact with that book's sophomoric schtick. Background matters to people, and it'll drive them away if it's done badly. After all, GW's target market is teenagers. Give them a general sense that the Codexes are written for 'little kids' anymore - something that's always prevalent, but is becoming increasingly plain - and they'll bolt for the nearest exit.


Further, you extrapolate far too much from ADB post; he simply said that the fluff has changed. He doesn't place judgement on it at all.
Mm, fair, I did word that poorly - not saying it's because Dembski-Bowden changed his plans because he thinks the book is crap, but that Ward's writing simply puts people off. It dulls, irks and irritates, but inspires little. He's bad as a background creator for GW, and aside from long-standing Studio tradition of having the rules boys also write the fluff, I don't see why they keep him around for it.


The majority of GW customers don't even use websites like BoLS, Warseer et al. Assuming that they must, because you do, is just more self-importance.
Who's making assumptions here? I've never said anything of the like. There's certainly enough people creating and using blogs, forums and the like to talk about 40K to get a representative sample of the fanbase. I've never claimed that "everyone" hates Ward's work, but it's caused a bigger stir than anything I've seen before - and I remember when the 40K online community was a couple of Angelfire sites and the Igcom list.

[MaltonNecromancer]

To get offtopic with you--what, no Babylon 5 mention? Perhaps the best 90's sci-fi show period.

Oh how I loved Babylon 5... But that was on TV by the time I was at uni; the only sci-fi I had in my formative years was Doctor Who (up until it's cancellation) and then... nothing. Nothing with any blood, gore or horror. Nothing than freaked me out. TV was just so... so tame.
Now we have "Walking Dead", and so many wonderful, glorious nightmares. It's lovely. The only advantage the 90's really had was ladies' fashion. I will never get tired of indie britpop girls and their violent, bloodsoaked ways.



Not all of us feel guilty about what people did in the past, nor do we feel ANY group deserves special treatment.

Never said I feel guilty. Simply that I ain't dumb enough to think I've got N-word privileges just because I want them. And you shouldn't feel guilty; it's not about guilt. If you're feeling guilty (or think you should be) then you're doing it wrong. Guilt is for people who've done something wrong. What I'm talking about is respect for the past. It's about respect for those whose past is made up of atrocities, and understanding that those atrocities have cultural consequences in the present that won't and shouldn't be swept under the carpet just because the people who comitted them are dead. How long do you think New Yorkers will carry the memory of 9/11? The legacy of slavery carries a similarly heavy weight; it's not about special privileges, or treating people differently. It's about common decency. It's about remembering the past to avoid repeating it. You may have heard the phrase "Never forget"? While coined to express resolution in the face of the Shoah, the sentiment applies to all atrocities.

Now how about these Necrons, eh? Chins like Sir Bruce Forsythe.

[Hive Mind]

Hive... You had me with you until your verbal assault of the Black Library.

A lot of it in the past has been bad. Perhaps even C.S. Goto would find your phrase "literary abortion" applicable...but presently? Come on, man.

As far as genre fiction goes, the recent Black Library offerings have been MORE than capable. Dembski-Bowden, in particular, has been pretty darn good. The last three or four Horus Heresy books have been really fantastic. They are certainly not "literary abortions." What, exactly, is your expectation of what the Black Library offers? Are any of their offerings going to win a Booker Prize, National Book Award, or Pulitzer? Perhaps not. But they're certainly in the running for Gemmels, Nebula's and Hugos. I've read both Windup Girl and Boneshaker, and yes, I believe A Thousand Sons is a better novel than both of them. IMO it will be a travesty if Prospero Burns isn't at least nominated for 2011, but I imagine the fact that the novels are part a series does not benefit them.

And for what it's worth... Heldenhammer, a Black Library novel by Graham McNeill, won the Gemmell in 09/10.

A caveat then; to date I have only read the first four, maybe five, Ciaphas Cain novels, the first two Word Bearers novels, the Alaric (is it Alaric?) Grey Knight trilogy and all the Horus Heresy books up to Mechanicum which I'm currently halfway through.

[Fellend]

First: Defending my previous statement. I actually find a space dinosaur in grey's anatomy more realistic than a sudden new necron lord managing to invade Terra the worlds probably best defended place and steal the head of one of the greatest saints in the Imperial universe and then get away.
Or The whole draigo episode, space dinosaurs is once again more likely because there is nothing in the fluff of the mentioned shows that goes AGAINST it. There's nothing saying space dinosaurs can't exist more than relistic expectations.... oh wait, that... would be exact same thing.

Please leave the carbon conflict to another thread, or start PM:ing each other. It's really not the forum for it.

And finally, just let us complain about ward and his fluff. Personally I think the fluff is more important than the rules, I'd rather have a fluffy army than a top tier one . (not that I mind if it's both) therefor the fluff is important to me and to several others. If you don't want to discuss fluff don't read this thread. Let us that want to complain about how we could never steal the head because of A and B or what he must have done to get past A and B do so without you being condescending space dinosaurs.

For some of us discussing fluff is just as fun as playing a game, and I'd like to remind you that you are all playing a game! with plastic soldiers. Take a step down from your throne of self-importance and awesome-I-only-care-about-rules horse.

Show the same curtesy here that you would to a your opponent on the gaming table

[Anggul]

Good fluff is most certainly important.

While I can't stand most of the crap that Ward has written, so far the Necron stuff is sounding a lot better than his previous attempts, so I think everyone should really wait to read the codex before judging. There will probably be a couple of silly parts, but so far it's shaping up to be quite good. (Blood Angels was probably his best so far, which is amusing considering the whole Blood Angels-Necron thing).

So yeah, people can get better at writing, and considering how I usually can't stand Ward's fluff from the get-go, I'm feeling optimistic about this one. Perhaps a non-marine codex is just what he needed. Necrons aren't too far away from the power-armoured thing, but they're edging away from it, and gradual progression is a good thing.

[eldargal]

What makes you think they did that? Why does it have to be authentic, how would Trazyn know, afterall, without breaking into a heavily fortified and defended monastery to check. Every private collector of antiquities has fakes in their collection whether they will admit it or not, I don't see why Trazyn the Infinite would be an exception.:) Am I really the only one show thinks of the skull of John the Baptist age 12 when they read the bit about Sabastian Thors head?


First: Defending my previous statement. I actually find a space dinosaur in grey's anatomy more realistic than a sudden new necron lord managing to invade Terra the worlds probably best defended place and steal the head of one of the greatest saints in the Imperial universe and then get away. e

[Fellend]

What makes you think they did that? Why does it have to be authentic, how would Trazyn know, afterall, without breaking into a heavily fortified and defended monastery to check. Every private collector of antiquities has fakes in their collection whether they will admit it or not, I don't see why Trazyn the Infinite would be an exception.:) Am I really the only one show thinks of the skull of John the Baptist age 12 when they read the bit about Sabastian Thors head?


Well it's possible that it's a fake but... That seems like a convienent save.
I haven't actually read the necron book yet but if it says that he has Thor's head we have to assume that he has it. Otherwise it's kind of pointless to even mention it

But this is also disturbing because nothing else mention this happening so we can't know. All and all an annoyance

[wittdooley]

.
I haven't actually read the necron book yet but if it says that he has Thor's head we have to assume that he has it. Otherwise it's kind of pointless to even mention it



Ahem.. DING DING DING!

I'm sorry that you find space dinosaurs in Grey's Anatomy (hell I'm more sorry you watch Grey's Anatomy and admit that), a television show rooted in the REAL WORLD, more believable than an evil Space Robot stealing the head of a the fictional magistrate of a science fiction world. My condolences to your family.

@Anguul - Please, can you give me more examples of the "crap" Ward has written beyond the three tiny, tired examples? Or is it now that en vogue to hate on Mat Ward?

[isotope99]

I prefer the idea that he has the real one and the one on Terra is/was teh fake, part of a political cover up. ;)

[Deadlift]

I prefer the idea that he has the real one and the one on Terra is/was teh fake, part of a political cover up. ;)

Very cool idea.

I will admit to getting a bit f**ked off with the hate towards a codex that non of us have even read fully yet. What's interesting though is at my local store and amongst my wargaming friends there seems to be nothing but enthusiasm for the Necron update. I just dont get the negativity here, but are the posters who have it in for this release before it happens the same people than genrally moan at everything GW do ? I suspect so.

So Isotope how will this codex effect your Death Guard counts as army ? :), or have you something new up your sleeve :).

[Old_Paladin]

On the whole 'Thor's Head' issue.
There is a lot of assumptions going on here; mostly, that his body is on open display, on a very important planet, and that his corpse has a massive military organization on constant protective duty.

Since there is no chance his body is on a lesser shrineworld (like his homeworld); and shineworlds have never been invaded before *cough* Garm, *cough* Hagia.


I mean, Abraham Lincoln is a vital piece of American history and life; but his body is only in Springfield Illinois (pop. of less than a quarter million). If I had a lot of extra time and money on my hands, some extra skill sets (and a very warped state of mind); it could be possible for me to steal Lincoln's body, and people might never even know about it.

[Pendragon38]

With all the pissing in each others pots,about the good and the bad of Wards work. Look at it like this its been about 10 years since the crones have got a dex thats a good thing.and as long as it works, leave the hateing at home or should call this (The Real Life of bols)

[eldargal]

You'd be surprised how difficult it is to surreptitiously extract a body from a cemetary actually. Not that I'd know.


On the whole 'Thor's Head' issue.
There is a lot of assumptions going on here; mostly, that his body is on open display, on a very important planet, and that his corpse has a massive military organization on constant protective duty.

Since there is no chance his body is on a lesser shrineworld (like his homeworld); and shineworlds have never been invaded before *cough* Garm, *cough* Hagia.


I mean, Abraham Lincoln is a vital piece of American history and life; but his body is only in Springfield Illinois (pop. of less than a quarter million). If I had a lot of extra time and money on my hands, some extra skill sets (and a very warped state of mind); it could be possible for me to steal Lincoln's body, and people might never even know about it.

[isotope99]

Very cool idea.

I will admit to getting a bit f**ked off with the hate towards a codex that non of us have even read fully yet. What's interesting though is at my local store and amongst my wargaming friends there seems to be nothing but enthusiasm for the Necron update. I just dont get the negativity here, but are the posters who have it in for this release before it happens the same people than genrally moan at everything GW do ? I suspect so.

So Isotope how will this codex effect your Death Guard counts as army ? :), or have you something new up your sleeve :).

I'm thinking that army might actually be a 'counts as' too far and its currently on ice waiting for chaos legions. (I might change my mind when I get my hands on the actual codex though ;) praetorians/lychguard as scythe wielding bodyguards perhaps?)

Instead, I think another attempt at a mechanicum force could be on the cards, either using the necron or Tau codex, as I probably won't start it until spring 2012.

Next on my list is an eldar exodite force which I am just starting on now.

[Fellend]

Ahem.. DING DING DING!

I'm sorry that you find space dinosaurs in Grey's Anatomy (hell I'm more sorry you watch Grey's Anatomy and admit that), a television show rooted in the REAL WORLD, more believable than an evil Space Robot stealing the head of a the fictional magistrate of a science fiction world. My condolences to your family.

@Anguul - Please, can you give me more examples of the "crap" Ward has written beyond the three tiny, tired examples? Or is it now that en vogue to hate on Mat Ward?


You are obviously out just to troll.
It just happends that grey's anatomy is the only thing on before the average simpson/family guy sitcom hours start. It's a crappy show I admit, but it beats studying.
The point which you are purposefully ignoring is that Grey's anatomy is not the real world. It's a fictious world were the laws of reality is bent when it fits them (how long does it take to learn a new brain surgery technique, on average half an hour it would seem. the CSI shows are even better examples of this) But we accept it because it's allowed in that world, we know the boundaries of that world and space dinosaurs don't belong there.

We also know the defenses of Terra, we know the defenses of the surrounding worlds, the fleets and the space marines and we know the wrath of the Imperium because in that world we have precedents which shows what happends when someone mess with Terra. We also know that the imba Draigo hangs around on Titan and can walk whereever he pleases apparantly

And yet this guy walks in and steals it (i'm going to go with stealing because invading well.... lets just say that SOMEONE would notice if Terra was invaded)

This is just as messed up with the established story line as a space dinosaur in your average soap opera.

[wittdooley]

You are obviously out just to troll.
It just happends that grey's anatomy is the only thing on before the average simpson/family guy sitcom hours start. It's a crappy show I admit, but it beats studying.
The point which you are purposefully ignoring is that Grey's anatomy is not the real world. It's a fictious world were the laws of reality is bent when it fits them (how long does it take to learn a new brain surgery technique, on average half an hour it would seem. the CSI shows are even better examples of this) But we accept it because it's allowed in that world, we know the boundaries of that world and space dinosaurs don't belong there.

We also know the defenses of Terra, we know the defenses of the surrounding worlds, the fleets and the space marines and we know the wrath of the Imperium because in that world we have precedents which shows what happends when someone mess with Terra. We also know that the imba Draigo hangs around on Titan and can walk whereever he pleases apparantly

And yet this guy walks in and steals it (i'm going to go with stealing because invading well.... lets just say that SOMEONE would notice if Terra was invaded)

This is just as messed up with the established story line as a space dinosaur in your average soap opera.

I'm growing concerend that you really fail to see the difference in the two...

Besides, how much information do we even have on Sebastian Thor? I mean seriously. As others have alread intimated, how do we know his remains even resided on Terra. We. Don't.

And just because it's on before Simpson/Family guy is really no excuse to watch Grey's Anatomy.

Jesus, people on these boards just love to expand something very tiny into a full-overblown movement. Quite amazing. I actually hope Ward writes the tiny bits into the codecies on purpose, and right now he and the dev staff at GW are reading boards and laughing at the idiocy being employed on them. Astounding.

[Charistoph]

Comparing Grey's Anatomy to real life is like comparing 40K to real combat.

And if you hate what Ward writes so much, don't buy his codecies and encourage your friends not to. If enough players avoid his codecies, he will be fired, end of story. At the very least, you won't be reading it so you at least have that.

[Fellend]

I'm growing concerend that you really fail to see the difference in the two...

Besides, how much information do we even have on Sebastian Thor? I mean seriously. As others have alread intimated, how do we know his remains even resided on Terra. We. Don't.

And just because it's on before Simpson/Family guy is really no excuse to watch Grey's Anatomy.

Jesus, people on these boards just love to expand something very tiny into a full-overblown movement. Quite amazing. I actually hope Ward writes the tiny bits into the codecies on purpose, and right now he and the dev staff at GW are reading boards and laughing at the idiocy being employed on them. Astounding.

Actually I think they are a pretty happy that people spend that much time discussing their fluff. And while I admit I jumped on the whole kept-on-terra bandwagon (as I said I haven't read the codex) the facts remain more or less the same. It's going to be one hellishly guarded relic and fleets would be deployed to hunt it down.

Whether I watch greys anatomy or not is really irrelevant. I was just making examples. (I have yet to watch an episode of Gossip girls for example)
Also it is a good excuse, because it really does beat studying curriculumtheory. But then again so does jamming nails into your eyes

You do realize that you are infact doing the same, actually you are making into an argument because most of us were discussing "omg this is insane this doesn't fit with the other fluff" and then you actually made it into an argument by being a troll that first enters the argument on the opposing side, knowningly inflame passionate people then pretend to play it all cool and act like everyone else is such a moron for hanging around and discussing this while you are infact doing the exact same thing.

Basically you are jeff winger from Community minus the good looks (well I don't know what you look like, so I'm not calling you ugly, I'm just saying I can't see you)

[Fellend]

Comparing Grey's Anatomy to real life is like comparing 40K to real combat.

And if you hate what Ward writes so much, don't buy his codecies and encourage your friends not to. If enough players avoid his codecies, he will be fired, end of story. At the very least, you won't be reading it so you at least have that.

So... Yes on space dinosaurs in the next season?

[wittdooley]

You do realize that you are infact doing the same, actually you are making into an argument because most of us were discussing "omg this is insane this doesn't fit with the other fluff" and then you actually made it into an argument by being a troll that first enters the argument on the opposing side, knowningly inflame passionate people then pretend to play it all cool and act like everyone else is such a moron for hanging around and discussing this while you are infact doing the exact same thing.


I'm not trolling anyone. I'm contiually (fail to) try and illuminate how ridiculous the hate for Ward's fluff is, particularly since so much of it is predicated on THREE SMALL PIECES. Were the entirety of his books awful, I'd agree; but they aren't. The Space Marine book is very good. The Blood Angels book is very good. The Grey Knights book is very good. Are they all filled with hyperbole? Well of course. Each codex is written from the perspective of the Imperium, so of course their best and greatest heroes are going to be expanded upon with extended hyperbole. But to have three otherwise very good books be so consistently lambasted by people, and to have the author criticized in an unreasonably mean-spirited way, for what amounts to three pages of fluff (out of over 300, mind you) is, IMO, absurd. I'm as passionate about the fluff as the next person. I write extensive reviews of every Black Library book I read. However, I'm reasonable enough to overlook a bit of overzealous hyperbole and not let it ruin what are otherwise very good books.

[andrewm9]

I'm not trolling anyone. I'm contiually (fail to) try and illuminate how ridiculous the hate for Ward's fluff is, particularly since so much of it is predicated on THREE SMALL PIECES. Were the entirety of his books awful, I'd agree; but they aren't. The Space Marine book is very good. The Blood Angels book is very good. The Grey Knights book is very good. Are they all filled with hyperbole? Well of course. Each codex is written from the perspective of the Imperium, so of course their best and greatest heroes are going to be expanded upon with extended hyperbole. But to have three otherwise very good books be so consistently lambasted by people, and to have the author criticized in an unreasonably mean-spirited way, for what amounts to three pages of fluff (out of over 300, mind you) is, IMO, absurd. I'm as passionate about the fluff as the next person. I write extensive reviews of every Black Library book I read. However, I'm reasonable enough to overlook a bit of overzealous hyperbole and not let it ruin what are otherwise very good books.

Is there a middle ground? I think Mat Ward writes ridiculous things into his fluff. I'm sure he does it on purpose to illustrate something about his army. Its over the top and I don't like it because it seems a little chidlish, but he does write the best codices in the game. I don't mean the most 'awesome' or 'always going to win' but relatively well thought out rules that work within the scope of the current edition. Thats what I mean by best.

[Deadlift]

Is there a middle ground? I think Mat Ward writes ridiculous things into his fluff. I'm sure he does it on purpose to illustrate something about his army. Its over the top and I don't like it because it seems a little chidlish, but he does write the best codices in the game. I don't mean the most 'awesome' or 'always going to win' but relatively well thought out rules that work within the scope of the current edition. Thats what I mean by best.

Or fingers crossed this time rules that will work well within the next edition.

[Fellend]

I'm not trolling anyone. I'm contiually (fail to) try and illuminate how ridiculous the hate for Ward's fluff is, particularly since so much of it is predicated on THREE SMALL PIECES. Were the entirety of his books awful, I'd agree; but they aren't. The Space Marine book is very good. The Blood Angels book is very good. The Grey Knights book is very good. Are they all filled with hyperbole? Well of course. Each codex is written from the perspective of the Imperium, so of course their best and greatest heroes are going to be expanded upon with extended hyperbole. But to have three otherwise very good books be so consistently lambasted by people, and to have the author criticized in an unreasonably mean-spirited way, for what amounts to three pages of fluff (out of over 300, mind you) is, IMO, absurd. I'm as passionate about the fluff as the next person. I write extensive reviews of every Black Library book I read. However, I'm reasonable enough to overlook a bit of overzealous hyperbole and not let it ruin what are otherwise very good books.

Sadly as a author (or generally public people) you have to accept that people are going to hate you and write long rants about much you suck compared to their favorite author. Just as you get to bask in the praise and adulation from the fan boys.
And all it takes is one piece of fluff to change the entire setting. (See previous statements about space dinosaurs).
Just think about what midoclorians (?) did for star wars. Suddenly the force wasn't a mysterious thing in the universe. Something that only a few chosen could sense. It was reduced to something measurable. I don't remember exactly but i'm pretty sure they took a blood sample.
Now with that in mind. Think of the various omnious and awesome Darth Vader lines "The force is strong in this one" ... Not ... really as impressive anymore.

The same way the codex creep pushes down the might of everything. New veteran variants = Space marine's aren't as cool
Veteran spam = Guardsmen become even worse
Lemans in squadrons = One leman isn't that impressive anymore

These are acceptable because they are slow changes, they adjust our perspective only slightly. While as Draigo, walking into the chaos realm and kicking *** with one hand behind his back. Mocking one of the great evil powers of the universe which have been pretty much untouchable untill now...
That is ... poor writing, and should be criticized. While it would be nice with formative assessment of his work, well it's not like he would read it and take it to heat anyway so we might as well just use summarative assement.

Yes I spent my evening studying that crap, I'll make you suffer for it

[Kawauso]

These are acceptable because they are slow changes, they adjust our perspective only slightly. While as Draigo, walking into the chaos realm and kicking *** with one hand behind his back. Mocking one of the great evil powers of the universe which have been pretty much untouchable untill now...
That is ... poor writing, and should be criticized. While it would be nice with formative assessment of his work, well it's not like he would read it and take it to heat anyway so we might as well just use summarative assement.


The thing is though, Draigo accomplished precisely nothing in doing so.

None of his actions have a lasting impact because he's in the Warp. So sure, he's going around roughhousing daemons and knocking down their buildings...but then they're just like "that ******* again? Damn kids..." and things go back to normal.

So I really don't get why people are that upset over it...
The only part of it that doesn't sit well with me, personally, is that Draigo tagged Mortarion's heart. Burning Nurgles jungle, though? Or knocking down some buildings in the Impossible City? Sure, why not? Everything just resets itself after he's left, and the daemons go back about their business.

I wouldn't call it bad writing. He's done nothing to diminish the threat of Chaos. Absolutely nothing. The only time he ever does any legitimate good for the Imperium is when he slips back out into the material realm again...and then he's just another Space Marine hero. I think the only reason he can do any of those things in the Warp in the first place is because he's an insanely powerful psyker and he's in a realm of psychic energy and willpower to begin with. Add to his prodigious psychic ability the fact he's encased in the best armour and wards the Imperium has for its psykers, and it's easy to see how he remains free of the Warp's malign influence. Terminator armour enables Marines to teleport through the Warp in safety, remember.

In the material world, though? Powerful psyker, sure, but Draigo's not toppling buildings and torching jungles there.

Just doesn't seem like a big deal to me, or that out of place, really. Maybe I'm just more tolerant of changes to the fluff than most people.

[Drew da Destroya]

He's done nothing to diminish the threat of Chaos. Absolutely nothing.

I would argue against this part, specifically. He does diminish the threat of Chaos in the eyes of the reader. Sure, he doesn't do anything lasting (except maybe tagging Mortarian), but his actions manage to make Chaos seem silly and powerless in their own backyard. I mean, if one random jerk can wander around the realms of the Chaos Gods with impunity, and not even Khorne can collect his skull, it makes them all look impotent.

Nurgle can keep Isha caged, and she's literally a god. They can't stop one jerk in shiny armor? On their own turf, where they should be at the apex of their power? Sure, Draigo is a powerful Psyker, and has willpower out the wazoo, but Khorne has all of the anger and rage of nearly every sentient being in the known Galaxy, if not Universe, including Draigo himself. It cheapens everything else written about the Chaos gods to allow for something like that. It cheapens the Chaos Primarchs. It cheapens Chaos itself. Chaos as a whole looks weaker because of one page of throwaway fluff.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Draigo sold his soul to Tzeentch for his rugged good looks and unparalleled psychic ability. Shortly after the transaction was finalized, Draigo roundhouse kicked Tzeentch in the face and took his soul back. Tzeentch, who appreciates irony, couldn't stay mad and admitted he should have seen it coming. They now play poker every second Wednesday of the month.

:p :D

[eldargal]

I just had this image of Draigo played up Nathan Fillion when I read that, not sure why.:rolleyes:


Draigo sold his soul to Tzeentch for his rugged good looks and unparalleled psychic ability.
:p :D

[Morgan Darkstar]

I just had this image of Draigo played up Nathan Fillion when I read that, not sure why.:rolleyes:

I guess I can see Draigo being as annoying as captain hammer :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DELA0geqPtE

[Rissan4ever]

I guess I can see Draigo being as annoying as captain hammer :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DELA0geqPtE

LOL! I love you guys!

[Drew da Destroya]

Draigo sold his soul to Tzeentch for his rugged good looks and unparalleled psychic ability. Shortly after the transaction was finalized, Draigo roundhouse kicked Tzeentch in the face and took his soul back. Tzeentch, who appreciates irony, couldn't stay mad and admitted he should have seen it coming. They now play poker every second Wednesday of the month.

:p :D

lol. Well played. I could accept this as a fair reason.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Sadly as a author (or generally public people) you have to accept that people are going to hate you and write long rants about much you suck compared to their favorite author.

Man, that is for sure. I have been on the recieving end of that crap. I only got one review on Amazon and the dude chewed me up:(

[Hive Mind]

Do you really live in Toad Suck? The missus is obsessed with that place.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Look, let's just all agree that I have the biggest wang and forget about it

[Morgan Darkstar]

Look, let's just all agree that I have the biggest wang and forget about it

But is it Numberwang? :D

[eldargal]

Anything with Felicia Day AND Nathan Fillion is going to be good. If only we could get them to breed and produce little Felifillion hybrids.


I guess I can see Draigo being as annoying as captain hammer :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DELA0geqPtE

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Do you really live in Toad Suck? The missus is obsessed with that place.

Technically I live directly on the other side of the Arkansas River (hence "East" Toad Suck) but I can see the bustling Toad Suck downtown from the back of my porch. There is the gas station, a few houses, the Mexican Apostolic church, the camping park, and last but not least the Army Corps of Engineers' Lock and Dam.

That pretty much covers everything. I could probably help hook your wife up with a Toad Suck hat or t-shirt. They sell them at the gas station.

[scadugenga]

I just had this image of Draigo played up Nathan Fillion when I read that, not sure why.:rolleyes:

Nathan Fillion, while being an awesome actor--is just too tiny to be Draigo.

[eldargal]

Pfft, that is why god invented special effects.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

If it works for Tom Cruise anything is possible.
Agree Nathan Fillion is a great actor.

[Zweischneid]

Kinda says it all, don't it? Ward's writing isn't judged on quality, but on how much worse it could have been.

Yup. Coulda been Phail Kelly. Should thank God ten times each day for every Codex that freak doesn't ruin.

[DrLove42]

Yup. Coulda been Phail Kelly. Should thank God ten times each day for every Codex that freak doesn't ruin.

Get off my forum :P

Phil Kelly is 10 times the writer that Ward will ever be

[Lexington]

Phil Kelly is 10 times the writer that Ward will ever be
I wish. Kelly's had the advantage of books that were more reprint than re-write, plus one book that had been in development forever (and still wasn't very good). When he's actually crafted something from scratch - the Space Wolf book - he's on a level with Ward. It's sad, really.

Tho, I've got to say, I've gotten an illicit look at the Necron book today, and what I've seen so far is surprisingly readable. Though, as a caveat, I haven't gotten to the Battles section, which is where Ward's worst work usually comes out of.

[eldargal]

You would have to be insane to say the Dark Eldar book was more reprint than rewrite, and it is the best codex there is at the moment. Not perfect, but the best internal balance, the best external balance and the background is fantastic. I think Ward does a perfectly fine job too, barring the odd bit of over the top fluff, but I would maintain Phil Kelly is marginally better.

If we include WFB:

1. Phil Kelly
2. Jeremy Vetock
3. Mat Ward
4. Robin Cruddace

In my opinion.

[wittdooley]

So far I've thumbed through just a bit of the Necrons dex, including the battles section. It's really well written. I'm sure people are going to complain about the Helbrect story. People are already complaining about Tazryn. I'm sure people are going to complain about the Khan story, as well. To those people I say this:

You're all whiny little nancies.

From what I've read, the book is well written and does a really great job of giving the Necrons an interesting background. It is no longer boring Lovecraftian garbage (BTW.. I think Lovecraft is supremely overrated, and I think Cthulu is stupid.). I really like the Khan story. It fleshes out the notion that some of the Necrons have honour. I like that Khan rescues Nightspear. It's noble, as Nightspear helped to save Khan's life. I also like that the codex incorporates fluff from Black Library novels. This, to me, helps to bring both universes together cohesively.

[lattd]

I wish. Kelly's had the advantage of books that were more reprint than re-write, plus one book that had been in development forever (and still wasn't very good). When he's actually crafted something from scratch - the Space Wolf book - he's on a level with Ward. It's sad, really.


I have to question your assumption here the space wolf is more of a rewrite than the DE codex, the only things new in the SW codex was the lone wolf and thunderwolves of which one fits perfectly with the space wolf fluff and the other is questionable at best.

The Eldar codex only requires a few repoints and rules modifications to bring it up to date with 5th, i would say thats a pretty good job.

[Lexington]

You would have to be insane to say the Dark Eldar book was more reprint than rewrite, and it is the best codex there is at the moment.
Right, it's the one I was referring to that had been in development for ages, and Jes Goodwin's hand was clearly on the steering wheel for a lot of that. It's probably the best-written Codex of 5th Edition, sure, but it's still hollow and textureless. Lots of great concepts, but expressed through flat Dark Elf stereotypes, all fey moo-ha-ha villainy and witless taunts. Kelly's books haven't been such crap as Ward's (and they're both sadly under the "Saturday Morning Superhero" edict handed down from higher up the GW food chain) but the only real distinction is Kelly's stronger prose hand.


I have to question your assumption here the space wolf is more of a rewrite than the DE codex, the only things new in the SW codex was the lone wolf and thunderwolves of which one fits perfectly with the space wolf fluff and the other is questionable at best.
Well, you have to realize that Kelly's other books - Eldar and Orks, specifically - were about 70% word-for-word reprints of RT/2nd Edition material. The Space Wolf Codex had much more original writing in it, and portrayed them as a gaggle of sophomoric lunkheads, apparently in a mishandled attempt at comedy. It's a really terrible book.

[lattd]

I disagree that the space wolf codex makes them feel like sophmores, I saw it as they were jolly hardy men, just as happy fighting as they would be drinking the night away.

[wittdooley]

Right, it's the one I was referring to that had been in development for ages, and Jes Goodwin's hand was clearly on the steering wheel for a lot of that. It's probably the best-written Codex of 5th Edition, sure, but it's still hollow and textureless. Lots of great concepts, but expressed through flat Dark Elf stereotypes, all fey moo-ha-ha villainy and witless taunts. Kelly's books haven't been such crap as Ward's (and they're both sadly under the "Saturday Morning Superhero" edict handed down from higher up the GW food chain) but the only real distinction is Kelly's stronger prose hand.


Well, you have to realize that Kelly's other books - Eldar and Orks, specifically - were about 70% word-for-word reprints of RT/2nd Edition material. The Space Wolf Codex had much more original writing in it, and portrayed them as a gaggle of sophomoric lunkheads, apparently in a mishandled attempt at comedy. It's a really terrible book.

You think pretty highly of yourself, eh?

I offer for you to submit the codexes and other works you've written to us, so we can really understand the lofty soapbox you continue to preach from. Perhaps you have better dark elf archetypes you can submit to Mr. Kelly and Mr. Goodwin that would help them, since they struggle so much.

[scadugenga]

You're all whiny little nancies.



You're starting to think just a bit too highly of yourself there too, Witt.

Pot, Kettle, et al.

Tell you what, you pay me..oh, $50k a year (a decent reduction in my current salary) and I'll write you all the codices you want. (With the correct use of the plural of codex, no less...) Wait...I'll need to pay for my own healthcare--you better make that $60k a year.

I'll even have a tighter release schedule for you, to boot. :P

I'll have fluff that remains faithful to the canon, yet is original and interesting, and I'll make sure the rules are balanced within the codices so that there are no "codex creep" catcalls.

And I bet I can find more interesting and unique nomenclature than Ward too. (to whit: blood a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h...equipment, and the ever so inventive "Nemesis/Doom" iterations in another of Ward's books.)

[wittdooley]

You're starting to think just a bit too highly of yourself there too, Witt.

Pot, Kettle, et al.

Tell you what, you pay me..oh, $50k a year (a decent reduction in my current salary) and I'll write you all the codices you want. (With the correct use of the plural of codex, no less...) Wait...I'll need to pay for my own healthcare--you better make that $60k a year.

I'll even have a tighter release schedule for you, to boot. :P

I'll have fluff that remains faithful to the canon, yet is original and interesting, and I'll make sure the rules are balanced within the codices so that there are no "codex creep" catcalls.

And I bet I can find more interesting and unique nomenclature than Ward too. (to whit: blood a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h...equipment, and the ever so inventive "Nemesis/Doom" iterations in another of Ward's books.)

I presume that means you have a lot of writing and wargame rule writing experience? Calling people pre-*****ing about the Necron dex is hardly any kind of reflection of what I think about myself.

Thanks for your grammar correction. I'm well aware of the plural for codex, though I seemed to not use it there. I appreciate that your argument is strong enough that you need a to learn me some grammar, too.

You should write your own codex then and submit it to GW since you're clearly better than what they presently have. Congrats to you for that. Don't really know what the **** your problem is with me lately on the boards, but I sure do look forward to you swooping in from the moral and intellectual high ground to educate all of us ignorant folk.

[Hotsauceman]

So far I've thumbed through just a bit of the Necrons dex, including the battles section. It's really well written. I'm sure people are going to complain about the Helbrect story. People are already complaining about Tazryn. I'm sure people are going to complain about the Khan story, as well. To those people I say this:

You're all whiny little nancies.

From what I've read, the book is well written and does a really great job of giving the Necrons an interesting background. It is no longer boring Lovecraftian garbage (BTW.. I think Lovecraft is supremely overrated, and I think Cthulu is stupid.). I really like the Khan story. It fleshes out the notion that some of the Necrons have honour. I like that Khan rescues Nightspear. It's noble, as Nightspear helped to save Khan's life. I also like that the codex incorporates fluff from Black Library novels. This, to me, helps to bring both universes together cohesively.

Wait? Khan As ins korsarro Khan?
Or Jaghatai?
What ever, Im gong to have to read the Codex now.

[scadugenga]

I presume that means you have a lot of writing and wargame rule writing experience? Calling people pre-*****ing about the Necron dex is hardly any kind of reflection of what I think about myself.

Thanks for your grammar correction. I'm well aware of the plural for codex, though I seemed to not use it there. I appreciate that your argument is strong enough that you need a to learn me some grammar, too.

You should write your own codex then and submit it to GW since you're clearly better than what they presently have. Congrats to you for that. Don't really know what the **** your problem is with me lately on the boards, but I sure do look forward to you swooping in from the moral and intellectual high ground to educate all of us ignorant folk.

1) I went to graduate school for creative writing and literature. So yes, I have the capability and the experience to be able to write professionally. I have over 20 years of experience playing this game through every edition. So yes, I can easily write a codex with confidence. (Sadly, writing really doesn't pay the bills. Funny how it's right up there with teaching in that regard. :))

2) My "codices" comment was a dig at GW, and not at you.

3) I'll write my own codex when someone pays me to do it. You don't get something for nothing. Which was the whole point the absurdness of the "offer" you made to Lex, and now in a more a**holish fashion to me.

4) My "problem" with you is that you have turned, rather abruptly, from an intelligent writer of well-thought out comments on this board to someone who is essentially nothing but a Mat Ward Apologist troll.

Ad hominems, check. Straw man, check. Wow, Witt. Not only are you being arrogant, aggressive and a bit snide, but you're intentionally misinterpreting my statements and making erroneous predictions based on assuming the role of being a victim.

Personally, I miss the old Witt, who was a valued contributor to the Forums, and not the new incarnation you seem to have turned into.

Tell you what, you don't have to worry about me trying to have a discussion with you anymore. It's clearly not going to be productive or even civil. And I wouldn't want you to feel you have to keep adopting the role of being "victimized" by big, bad, scary intellectual-bully me.

And I didn't even call you a cretinous pillock...

Perhaps I've missed my true calling.

[Fellend]

Can someone with the codex give me an update on this Helbrect story?

[wittdooley]

Helbrect battles stormlord. Stormlord wins battle. Instead of killing helbrect lops his Hand off to humiliate him and remind him of his failure.

Yes to Korsarro Khan.

See my PM scad.

[Deadlift]

The Necron fluff really is pushing them forward as being noble in battle isn't it. You know letting people go because they fought with honour etc etc, the new fluff is riddled with it. I kind of like it.

[ZenPaladin]

Well I think they are going a little out of their way to show some of the more honorable Phaerons so as to contrast with the old Necrons. There seems to be a lot more who are squashing their foes like bugs than there are ones who are giving them a chance to surrender.

I've slogged through this thread in an effort to see if my one gripe with the fluff was brought up by anyone. Either nobody thought of it or most don't have a problem with it. Don't get me wrong I really like the new direction of the fluff. Having Thor's head and or a Primarch doesn't bother me too much. (I'm honestly leaning toward it's a fake or he's just that damn tricky and makes judicious use of mindshackle scarabs)

What does bother me though is the Necrons have no means of FTL travel or communication of their own. In fact in the section on the Dolmen Gates it's specificaly said they would be screwed without them. Yet they are supposed to have had a mighty galatic civilization for thousands of years before the co-opted their tiny part of the webway.

That just kinda sticks in my craw and I was wondering if anyone else was bothered with it or had thoughts on it.

[Jambo]

tryzan the del boy of the necron world lol

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

I am annoied at the complete loss of the Pariah fluff (not so fussed with Pariahs as a unit), that piece of fluff was so relevant to the Imperium too, and it's a shame they removed it. Everything else I am good with :)

[Kawauso]

Has anyone seen Trazyn the Infinite's fluff? Specifically, the letter he wrote to Inquisitor Valeria from the GK codex? It's hilarious. :D

[BigGrim]

Has anyone seen Trazyn the Infinite's fluff? Specifically, the letter he wrote to Inquisitor Valeria from the GK codex? It's hilarious. :D

I frickin' love that blurb! It's genius!

[Swordthain]

I really don't care for the new fluff. I think the greatest problem with it is that it demonstrates a failure to internalize and apprehend the paradigmatic elements of the setting of the 40K universe. Heavy influence from the Dune series is evident in early fluff, and we have observed a steady digress away from that initial metanarrative. The new Necrons are a manifestation of what amounts to nearly a different paradigm of existence from where it all started years and years ago. The more that I work to try to see this latest codex as a completely new manifestation, a completely different race than what I knew before (the Old Necrons, if you will), the more palatable it becomes. This does not help the maturity of the writing, unfortunately, which is written as though by a fourteen-year-old who is convinced his sadly poor iambic pentameter has any real value simply because he put his heart into it. From a literary-critical point of view, the fluff is downright painful. Philosophically, the new fluff is equivalent to a tween's understanding of ontology.
I had a hard time with some of the new rules, and the one-dimensional game concept of the faction is now a thing of the past; however, they seem like they'll be reasonably balanced and afford many, many more options than the Necron player has ever enjoyed before. I will miss T5 Immortals with S5, AP4, Assault 2 weapons. But they are 11 points cheaper than they were before -and they're Troop choices. All-in-all, I am appeased, at least, with the new rules. It'll be great for players who don't have attachments to the "Old Necrons"--you know, new players coming in to pick up Necrons for the first time. For those of us who have stuck with Necrons for the past decade, I have to say it kinda' sucks...

[Galadren]

Helbrect battles stormlord. Stormlord wins battle. Instead of killing helbrect lops his Hand off to humiliate him and remind him of his failure.

Just as an addendum: later on Helbrecht tracks this Necron down and boards his ship. He then proceeds to send the Necron running. As he couldn't kill the Necron who took his hand, Helbrecht settles for pointing the Necron's ship at a sun and letting it fly.

[wittdooley]

I really don't care for the new fluff. I think the greatest problem with it is that it demonstrates a failure to internalize and apprehend the paradigmatic elements of the setting of the 40K universe. Heavy influence from the Dune series is evident in early fluff, and we have observed a steady digress away from that initial metanarrative. The new Necrons are a manifestation of what amounts to nearly a different paradigm of existence from where it all started years and years ago. The more that I work to try to see this latest codex as a completely new manifestation, a completely different race than what I knew before (the Old Necrons, if you will), the more palatable it becomes. This does not help the maturity of the writing, unfortunately, which is written as though by a fourteen-year-old who is convinced his sadly poor iambic pentameter has any real value simply because he put his heart into it. From a literary-critical point of view, the fluff is downright painful. Philosophically, the new fluff is equivalent to a tween's understanding of ontology.
I had a hard time with some of the new rules, and the one-dimensional game concept of the faction is now a thing of the past; however, they seem like they'll be reasonably balanced and afford many, many more options than the Necron player has ever enjoyed before. I will miss T5 Immortals with S5, AP4, Assault 2 weapons. But they are 11 points cheaper than they were before -and they're Troop choices. All-in-all, I am appeased, at least, with the new rules. It'll be great for players who don't have attachments to the "Old Necrons"--you know, new players coming in to pick up Necrons for the first time. For those of us who have stuck with Necrons for the past decade, I have to say it kinda' sucks...

I'm sorry you miss your old, shallow Necrons with the glossed over fluff and relatively no backstory.

From a literary criticism point of view, I wholeheartedly disagree with your take on the fluff. It is well written, clever and self-referential in many places (see the aformentioned Trazyn bit), and does really nice job of connecting both back to previous codices and established Black Library fluff.

[eldargal]

I must say, having just read the Necron codex, I'm very impressed with it. The fluff is suitably impressive for the most technologically advanced race in 40k without being stupidly over the top.

[MajorWesJanson]

Trayzn is perhaps the best character added to 40K in years.

[eldargal]

Agreed, he is certainly in my top five 40k characters and if you said a Necron would make the list a couple of months ago I would have said 'lol:rolleyes:'.
:rolleyes:

[Swordthain]

I'm sorry you miss your old, shallow Necrons with the glossed over fluff and relatively no backstory.

Is that at all what I said? I think not. What I said is that I miss the fact that the new fluff fails to reflect solidarity with the paradigmatic elements from which it supposedly springs. The fluff from the previous book was indeed incomplete. It needed fleshing out and a philosophically-insightful writer to guide it into maturation. This was unfortunately not accomplished in the new book. What we received instead is an amaturish attempt at a Necron comic book. Hence, what is missed is the metaphysical imagination that once gave the Necrons their mystique as a faction in the 40K universe.

[wittdooley]

I just want to be clear:

You just used Necron, paragidmatic elements, philosophically insightful, metaphysically insightful, and Warhammer 40k in the same paragraph.

And you allude to the fact that 40k, what with the 8-foot tall genetically enhanced killing machines, ramshackle spore-people, and space elfs isn't already a bit comic-booky.

I'm just saying.

[Pendragon38]

I just want to be clear: You just used Necron, paragidmatic elements, philosophically insightful, metaphysically insightful, and Warhammer 40k in the same paragraph. And you allude to the fact that 40k, what with the 8-foot tall genetically enhanced killing machines, ramshackle spore-people, and space elfs isn't already a bit comic-booky. I'm just saying. you smell something...oh someone got burned

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Swordthain has any degree of consideration for those who communicate outside the sphere of his/her lexicon. Perhaps you would be better served conversing in a less subjective and more phrenic way?

Nyuk nyuk nyuk...

[Swordthain]

I can see I'm wasting my time...

[wittdooley]

Because clearly your 4 posts indicate an inordinate amount of time spent.

[Duke]

Exactley what does post count have to do with Necron fluff? On topic please.

Duke

[eldargal]

The thing is, what you think Necrons were before didn't exist. You and many other Necron players projected their own wishes and preferences onto a largely empty canvas. Under those circumstances nothing was going to be good enough. But the fact is if you think 40k has been anything other than over the top, comic book style pulp fiction you are either delusional or woefully ignorant of the settings history. They didn't represent a different paradigm of existence within the 40k universe, they were robots powerered by souls using technology rather than Warp energy, you just wanted them to represent a different paradigm of existence. Because their fluff was so scant you were able to convince yourself this was so.

When people talk about the loss of the Lovecraftian Necrons of old, to use one example, the fact is they are bemoaning the fact that what they imagined Necrons to be no longer meshes fully with the background, not any change on GWs part. Of course there is nothing stopping you having Necrons which are the soulless servants of a Lovecraftian entity if you want, Necrons are nothing if not varied now.


I'm sorry you miss your old, shallow Necrons with the glossed over fluff and relatively no backstory.

Is that at all what I said? I think not. What I said is that I miss the fact that the new fluff fails to reflect solidarity with the paradigmatic elements from which it supposedly springs. The fluff from the previous book was indeed incomplete. It needed fleshing out and a philosophically-insightful writer to guide it into maturation. This was unfortunately not accomplished in the new book. What we received instead is an amaturish attempt at a Necron comic book. Hence, what is missed is the metaphysical imagination that once gave the Necrons their mystique as a faction in the 40K universe.

[Necron2.0]

I can see I'm wasting my time...

Indeed. This place isn't quite as bad as Warseer, but there are elements of it here. Take heart, and welcome to the minefield. :)

Oh, and by the way, you're not the only one who's not exactly thrilled with the fluff changes, as evidenced by the 15 pages of this thread. ;)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

It cracks me up how Matt Ward Trolls sooo many nerds.

The only problem I have with the new back story is this.

Silent King sees Hive Fleet, then let's team up with Blood Angels to destroy said hive fleet. Yaaay!~ \o/\o/\o/

-insert persona reading said fluff-

"That can't be right..." -doubletake-"...wtf?!" 0_o

[Necron2.0]

It cracks me up how Matt Ward Trolls sooo many of my brethren.

Given the nature of this forum and the subject matter thereof, fixed that for you. ;)


The only problem I have with the new back story is this.

Silent King sees Hive Fleet, then let's team up with Blood Angels to destroy said hive fleet. Yaaay!~ \o/\o/\o/

-insert persona reading said fluff-

"That can't be right..." -doubletake-"...wtf?!" 0_o

As I've said >>here<< (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=166509), my only issue with the fluff is the "why" of the big sleep. It is nonsensical.

The only other issue I have, in general (besides GW's obvious money-suck issues), is in how ridiculous some of the models look now - especially the overlords. Every time I look at one, I start singing "Who's the leader of the club that's made for you and me? M-I-C, K-E-Y. M-O-U-S-E!"

[Dont-Be-Haten]

x.x I would never claim anything as my "bretheren..." Akward. Anyways, you can always green stuff cooler headpieces -nodnod- n.n

[Popkhorne]

Having just joined, I'm really suprised at the sheer volume of Matt Ward apologists on this forum. It seems like every time somebody complains about his writing one of you guys just jumps in to laugh at them and call them a nerd, seriously YOUR ON A 40k FORUM for gods sake, we're all nerds, have a little solidarity. Fans have spent their time and money supporting this game and have every right to complain about aspects of it that disagree with them, having opinions is nothing to be ashamed of. Some of you like Matt Ward, some of you don't but dont act like somehow your cooler than everybody else because you dont care. Your not cool and neither are any of us so get over it. We know its just a game, we know none of this is real but we still enjoy discussing it because its fun for us and frankly thats what forums are for, discussion, not stroking your ego, so deal.



/rant


...also the new fluff blows.

[DarkLink]

I actually like Ward's fluff. The whole "OMFGWTF, Driago just tore down the gates of some great chaos city inside the warp and beat khorne to death with his own tower!!!" absurdity is exactly what 40k was built on.

Yes, it's ridiculous. That's kinda the point. Whiners take 40k too seriously. If you want high quality stuff to take seriously, 40k has never been the place for it, and if you genuinely think it was/is, you need to broaden your horizons.

[Popkhorne]

I actually like Ward's fluff. The whole "OMFGWTF, Driago just tore down the gates of some great chaos city inside the warp and beat khorne to death with his own tower!!!" absurdity is exactly what 40k was built on.

Yes, it's ridiculous. That's kinda the point. Whiners take 40k too seriously. If you want high quality stuff to take seriously, 40k has never been the place for it, and if you genuinely think it was/is, you need to broaden your horizons.

Except your taking the fluff just as seriously, just with the opposite opinion. Wards fluff isn't bad because its ridiculous its bad because its poorly written. Way to imply that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a pedantic nerd.

[Levitas]

Reminder that Rogue Trader had 'space squirrels' in it. Just saying.

I think the fluff for metal egyptian robots is pretty good. I mean, throughout all the books there is crazy stuff, from party hard space elves to space vampires with bat nipples. Its the craziness that 40k was built on and what stimulates the imagination.

man, space squirrels were so broken.

[Chumbalaya]

Having just joined, I'm really suprised at the sheer volume of Matt Ward apologists on this forum. It seems like every time somebody complains about his writing one of you guys just jumps in to laugh at them and call them a nerd, seriously YOUR ON A 40k FORUM for gods sake, we're all nerds, have a little solidarity. Fans have spent their time and money supporting this game and have every right to complain about aspects of it that disagree with them, having opinions is nothing to be ashamed of. Some of you like Matt Ward, some of you don't but dont act like somehow your cooler than everybody else because you dont care. Your not cool and neither are any of us so get over it. We know its just a game, we know none of this is real but we still enjoy discussing it because its fun for us and frankly thats what forums are for, discussion, not stroking your ego, so deal.



/rant


...also the new fluff blows.

Pot, kettle, have you met?

Newcrons are best crons.

[wittdooley]

Except your taking the fluff just as seriously, just with the opposite opinion. Wards fluff isn't bad because its ridiculous its bad because its poorly written. Way to imply that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a pedantic nerd.

Except that it isn't. He's a decent enough writer. No better, no worse than any of the other codex writers. The Matt Ward haters are butthurt over what amounts to about 4 pages out of 400 pages of codex. That's 1%. Not to mention his army books provide multiple viable army builds. I'll take it any day of the week.

The necron dex is great. The crons barely had any fluff previously, and now they have a fun, diverse army book that provides them with a Ton of character and, again, multiple viable army builds.

Also. If you're claiming that all dudes interested in 40k are on the same level of Nerdiness, you're incredibly naive. It's like that whole girls and the feel better friend. If you don't know who the feel better friend is, it's you. If you think all dudes playing 40k are as nerdy as you, you're probably on the SUPER nerdy, I never played sports, girls make me nervous side of the nerd kingdom. It's just how it is.

[DarkLink]

Except your taking the fluff just as seriously, just with the opposite opinion.

How is "whoooo! stuff just blew up, and that's awesome" taking it too seriously?

Like all the reviews for John Carter. Either they're all "it sucked, because it wasn't gritty enough" or "that was a pretty cool movie, it was absurd adventuring".

40k fluff is fun, because it's absurd. Who cares if Ward's fluff is absurd in a slightly different way, or it Ward's fluff contradicts some older fluff?

[darthslowe]

I love the new Necron fluff. It gives personality to the poor space robots. I didn't really like having three mindless killer armies (Orks count because they fight and kill for no reason other than that is what they were made to do, yes they have character, but I didn't like that there were so many armies that didn't have reasons to fight other than that is what they were made for). I also don't mind the Blood Angels/Necrons alliance. If the Necrons are as old as all that there is a good chance they have fought the Tyranids before and understand what is going on, therefore, they would want to stop the Tyranids just as much as the Blood Angels. It's sort of hard to rule the galaxy when there is no galaxy to rule.