Need help:Recommending Eldar or Space Wolves to a new guy interested in starting 40k

[Wildcard]

So, as the topic says. We got a new guy interested in starting a 40k hobby. His prime candidates for army are either Eldar (cos of their sleek and cool looks) or Space Wolves (cos of their Viking / northerner- looks)..

Now, we have only small ring of friends playing, and no-one has any idea of the armies in question (save for the fluff bits)..
So, i ask for those of you who know better:

- How are these armies to play?
- Either of them particularly welcoming / forgiving for a new guy (rules,gameplay, modeling & painting wise)?
- What are the best and worst parts of both armies?
- For what type of player would you suggest picking one OR what would be the reasons for dropping the army altogether?
- Basically, pros and cons
- Your point of interest / note that i might have overlooked / missed?

We are friendly bunch of people, with some adapted rules / houserules to let multiple players play in one game. Winning is fun, yet we don't deliberately go for the "cheesy builds" that one can see in the tournaments (atleast to my understanding :) )

And, if this matters (although it really shouldn't imo), our main group consists of IG/GK, Chaos SM / Necrons, Orks (with a hilariously high similarities to the mentalities of the persons playing them i might add) plus we have occasional Blood Angel fellow and Tau/Dark Eldar guy..

I think its safe to say that when recommending either of the armies, there is no need to include Imperial Armour / Apocalypse, even though we do have apoc,IA1 and the new IA apoc 2nd edition - These would come to the hobby (for this guy) at the later state :)

Thousand thanks in advance

Wildcard

[wittdooley]

Well lets see. I'll take a stab at this question:



- How are these armies to play? - Either of them particularly welcoming / forgiving for a new guy (rules,gameplay, modeling & painting wise)?

They both can be plenty competitive in the present 40k landscape with, IMO, the Space Wolves being a far more forgiving factions, as can sorta be said for any of the marines. With counter-charge, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters (IMO the single best unit in the game due to their versatility), and JotWW the Space Wolves can be very, very good. Eldar, much like their DE brethren, can be very much a glass cannon. They rely on synergies and really good movement to work well. Eldrad is still probably one of the best HQs in the game, but there is certainly a steeper learning curve to the Space Elves.



- What are the best and worst parts of both armies?
Crap like the Goat Wolves and other WAAC-douchers playing spammy lists that include 6 razorbacks. The space wolves are really, really solid all around.
For eldar, I'd honestly say the worst part of the army is that most of your models will be required to be metal if you want to use any of the elite aspects.


For what type of player would you suggest picking one OR what would be the reasons for dropping the army altogether?

I really like the Space Wolves, I truly enjoy playing with them, and I refuse to use any of the spammy net lists. I like to run my Thunderwolves, sure, but they're always accompanied by like, 30 fenrisian wolves; It's a very furry list. I'll reiterate that I think the Space Wolves are going to be far easier for a new player to learn, if only because the Eldar are a very nuanced and subtle force that rely on all the pieces working together.

Cheers.

[Jambo]

So, as the topic says. We got a new guy interested in starting a 40k hobby. His prime candidates for army are either Eldar (cos of their sleek and cool looks) or Space Wolves (cos of their Viking / northerner- looks)..

Now, we have only small ring of friends playing, and no-one has any idea of the armies in question (save for the fluff bits)..
So, i ask for those of you who know better:

- How are these armies to play?
- Either of them particularly welcoming / forgiving for a new guy (rules,gameplay, modeling & painting wise)?
- What are the best and worst parts of both armies?
- For what type of player would you suggest picking one OR what would be the reasons for dropping the army altogether?
- Basically, pros and cons
- Your point of interest / note that i might have overlooked / missed?

We are friendly bunch of people, with some adapted rules / houserules to let multiple players play in one game. Winning is fun, yet we don't deliberately go for the "cheesy builds" that one can see in the tournaments (atleast to my understanding :) )

And, if this matters (although it really shouldn't imo), our main group consists of IG/GK, Chaos SM / Necrons, Orks (with a hilariously high similarities to the mentalities of the persons playing them i might add) plus we have occasional Blood Angel fellow and Tau/Dark Eldar guy..

I think its safe to say that when recommending either of the armies, there is no need to include Imperial Armour / Apocalypse, even though we do have apoc,IA1 and the new IA apoc 2nd edition - These would come to the hobby (for this guy) at the later state :)

Thousand thanks in advance

Wildcard

hey mate i know this probablt not the best of help lol but one of the guys from my little group of 40k players has both eldar and SW. He has been saying that the eldar, at the moment, seem to be outdated compared to other armies but he still likes to use them from time to time. His space wolves are pretty badass and imo they look smart but he hasn't used them in a long time.

I always believe that you should go for the army that really apeals to you both the fluff and the look of the army and worry bout the use of the army when you have decided because i do think that any army in the right hands is deadly.

hope that helped a little lol

[MaltonNecromancer]

Space Wolves are, as stated, a very strong army. They have a variety of interesting builds, both of the competitive and fluffy varieties. Their real weakness is their lower-than average leadership, but otherwise they're generally a more assault version of standard Space Marines (they lose some of the "vanilla" Marines' more varied options.). They aren't as fast as Blood Angels, and they aren't as hyperbolic as the Grey Knights, but they're very strong indeed.

Eldar are an extremely high skill army; I absolutely would not recommend them to a new player... unless they liked the models, in which case, go for it. Aesthetics trumps competitive edge every time in my book. They always have been, but the fact their codex is clearly out-of-date is the thing that hampers them most. They have some excellent strengths - a full-on Dire Avenger bladestorm is a thing to behold. They also have some really nifty HQ choices.

However, if your mate is prepared to wait, I'd advise that they do so. Eldar should be getting almost all of their Aspect Warriors re-released as Finecast in the very near future, as well as an updated codex in a year or so; if it's anything like the current range (especially like the new Dark Eldar codex) it should be pretty damn good.

So: if impatient, Space Wolves. If predispose to wait, Eldar.

[Grailkeeper]

Space wolves will probably be cheaper

[Necron_Lord]

I have to agree with what has been said by the others. Both are good armies, so it depends on what he wants. Space Wolves are more current and easier to use. A drawback is that some of their good units have to be converted. I am thinking of Thunderwolf Cavalry and Wolf Lords with Thunderwolf Mounts. Eldar models are nice looking but are specialized so you need lots of different units. This can get expensive.

Your friend should ultimately get the army which appeals to him the most based on looks, fluff and cost for in the long run those will be the only factors which matter.

[Grimnar42]

Just tell him go for the one that really grabs him everything else becomes easier if you are right into the models and the fluff

[scadugenga]

Your friend is almost, but not quite going to the opposite sides of the spectrum.

Eldar

First and foremost--Eldar are a thinking-person's army. There is no point & click to the Eldar. That being said, the Eldar are a lot of fun to play. They aren't quite as fragile as their dark brethren, but they are nowhere near as resilient as the various Marine iterations.

Eldar are a mobile army. You need to stay moving or you are going to get hurt.

They have arguably the best psychic defense in the game, but thanks to GW "re-envisioning" the imperial psykers--I don't think they can reasonably expect to claim "king-of-the-hill" in the psychic power department anymore. Perhaps they'll fix that in 6th?

Space Wolves

The Wolves are perhaps the most forgiving of all the Marine chapters--they're just that good all around.

They have great psychic powers, Long Fangs, TWC...the list goes on. There's a reason people play this army a lot. It has power with a capital P.

[Wildcard]

Thanks alot so far for really good points and nice info. I will relay your wisdom to the fellow in question :)
Lets see what will be hes' reaction and can he make the choice based on this info :)

[Nosmo75]

For what type of player would you suggest picking one?Wildcard

MaltonNecromancer really hit the nail on the head with this ingenious answer:

"If impatient, Space Wolves. If predisposed to wait, Eldar."

That perfectly (albeit simply) sums up the people who play those armies respectively. :D

[Wolfshade]

I would suggest space wolves, the 3+ save is very forgiving when starting out. Eldar are more tricksy to play but when done by an experianced player are immense

[A Barb]

Space Wolves is a good army and one of the ones I have trouble with! Eldar are okay, but their codex needs to be redone. I say go with those red head killing space marines! :D

[Wildcard]

Okies, so now the friend in question has chosen Eldar. Next question is, where to start?

If he would start with compulsory 1hq and 2 troops, what would you suggest? (just to get the games running).
Also, as i dont know anything about the 'current trends' or 'solid builds' from eldar codex, are there any suggestions or guidelines you could toss that i could pass down to my friend?

Any unit(s) that are must? Something that one should avoid at all costs? As i dont know the synergy or roles of the choices in the codex i am totally lost (and i wouldn't like to say "just choose something", even though picking units that just pleases you most is usually the best way to encourage to continue and ignite the spark to the full :) )

So:
- Single tips / general unit role breakdowns
- Small-medium armylists against marine / horde races - not necessarily upgrades and sharp pointcosts, just general guidelines, i.ex 'always take few squads of dire avengers as your troops, and remember to include wave serpent with role 'x' in mind'. Or always take jetbikes and vehicles in squadrons etc etc :)

As always, all creative comments are warmly appreciated :)

[scadugenga]

Congrats on your friend picking the Eldar. (My primary army since 1988...)

You cannot go wrong with looking at the required picks first.

The eldar are primarily a force that mandates two things: synergy and mobility.

The good thing about the HQ slot, is that you have a fairly decent number of quality choices.

The bad thing about it is that there's very little-to-no flexibility in each choice option.

The mandatory HQ recommendation for me is always going to be a Farseer. Since 3rd edition, they've been the real go-to choice for creating a solid army.

The Farseer is what is going to tie your army together. It is the ultimate tool for "buffing" your force. Guide means you hit more often. Doom means you get more wounds, and Fortune keeps models on the table longer. In a pinch, Mind War can be used as an assassination/unit control tool as well. Seer Runes and Runes of Warding are both highly recommended. You can toss him on a jetbike--but this is not a good idea unless he has a bunch of other jetbikes around him. Safety in numbers. :)

Now the internet will tell you to forget the farseer, and get Eldrad instead. That's up to your buddy. Personally, I hate fielding special characters and have not used Eldrad--ever. And I get along just fine without him.

The Troops section is really divided into two camps: The really useful, and the "blahs."

The really useful:

Dire Avengers: Eldar took a massive nerf-hit in the transition to 3rd ed. Our main basic weapon (Shuriken Cats) had their range cut to 12", and with 4th ed/5th ed rules it got nerfed further when basic weapons were always allowed to shoot twice up to 12". The current Dire Avengers have their Cats go out to 18", and the exarch allows for some nice abilities.

Pathfinders: BS4 Sniper-rifles-on-steriods with no terrain penalties, scout, infiltrate, and a + 2 to cover saves. Pricey, yes--but if you absolutely need to hold an objective against units not armed with template (flamer) weapons this is your go-to unit.

Guardian Jet Bikes: Until the new DE 'dex, 22pts a pop was a nice bennie to have with an Eldar jetbike. Reavers totally make them overpriced in comparison, but they still allow for great mobility and objective claiming late in the game.

The Blahs:

Guardian Defenders: Basically imperial guardsmen with a better I value, the potential to have a Warlock upgrade, and a single (yes, single) heavy weapon that can move and fire. The IG Platoon (1 Troops choice) is a minimum of 55 guys for 130 points. A max Guardian Squad (without warlock) is 20 guardians for 160 points plus heavy weapon (mandatory) fees. Right now they underperform and cost way too much to be all that useful.

Guardian Storm Squads: Pretty much the same problem as the Defenders. CC aspect warriors, or a Seer Council Warlock squad do the job so much better.

Rangers: For 5 points less than the Pathfinder upgrade--it's almost always worth taking Pathfinders over rangers for the additional +1 to cover saves and the weapon counting as an AP1 hit on the to-hit roll of 5+ instead of the Ranger's 6.


For me--with the eldar, I really like having a good solid investment in the Troops category. You get a lot of bang for your points there. A full Dire Avenger squad bladestorming with a twin-cat exarch is pumping out 32 Str 4 AP5 shots. 27 of them are at BS4 and 5 at BS5. If their guided, everything is twin-linked, and if the target is doomed, you're re-rolling failed "to wound" rolls. I've erased max-sized Tyranid Warrior units with bladestorming Avengers. It's a good feeling. :)

And it is statistically possible (though highly unlikely) for your pathfinders to "one-shot" AV12 armor. (Rending AP1 sniper weapon.)

[Wildcard]

Awesome post, thanks for it :)

I know that after that the next step is still some time away, but anyway what about a quick rundown of the following units:

- Swooping hawks (vs) Warp Spiders
- Wave Serpents (in general) and when compared to Falcons (seems alot similar to me, save for the transport capacity)
- Fire Dragons must choice for popping up tanks and transports? Or is there a unit(s) with similar roles?
- War Walkers & Fire Prisms (more info the better, friend starting eldar specifically asked from these)

--
Few notes i've glimpsed from the rules:
- Is it true that with star engines you can potentially go 36" in a round (24" for flat out + 12" for not shooting?)
- Banshee masks (ignore grenades part): They ignore each and every grenade there is (GK rad & psykostroke, plaguemarine blight grenades, normal frag grenades (mean do they negate the assaulting players Initiative-modifiers when assaulting in cover... etc. in short: Truly all of them? :) )
/EDIT
-All the bonuses / special rules you get from aspect Exarchs & Phoenix Lords: Do they affect only the exarch/phoenix lord, or all members of the squad they are joined with?
EDIT/

[lattd]

Warp spiders, despite me loving hawks as they are such cool models, spiders are better at just about everything.
Waver serpents are the only transport where as a falcon is a heavy support.
Fire dragons are the best anti tank and anti terminator units in the game let alone the eldar codex, wraithlord and prism can do anti tank as well.
War walkers can pump out more shots but prism can give more bang for that one shot.

[scadugenga]

Swooping Hawks

Jump Infantry that can (with the exarch and skyleap) pogo to and from the board, dropping essentially a mortar round each time they land.

Primary weapon is a 24" AP5 Assault 2 lasgun. It blows. Hawks, more than any other unit in the eldar army, got nerfed in the transition from 2nd ed to the current style of play. I used to love using Hawks. They were frequent game-winners for me in 2nd ed. Now--not so much. Still pretty-looking though.

Warp Spiders

Jump Infantry with Marine armor. A short range, but brutal anti-infantry weapon, plus the ability to make a second jump move in the assault phase. Pricey unit, but overall effectiveness exceeds that of the Swooping Hawk imo. Not as pretty looking though. ;)

Wave Serpents (as lattd stated earlier) are the only dedicated transport in the Eldar army. They are quite good, but very pricey in the current discounted-points era of 5th Edition. You can have 3 rhinos for 1 Serpent. That being said, they make melta, lascannons & other Str 9-10 weaponry sad. Unfortunately, no assault ramps, so any CC unit is going to be left sitting in the open for a turn before they can charge. Falcons are a Heavy Support choice, so they have to be measured against all the other lovely HS options in the Eldar 'dex. That and they only have a 6 man capacity. It can hurt.

Fire Dragons are the pre-eminent anti-tank in the eldar force. That being said, they are usually the biggest target in your army as well. Just for that reason. There are other anti-tank units in the army, but nothing with quite so much AP1.

War Walkers I have to admit--I really love using war walkers in the current edition. No longer open topped, and the huge torrent of fire you can put out with dual scatter lasers is (and should be) terrifying for your opponent to face. They are still very fragile, but they also scout--so you can outflank them and get lovely side & rear shots on your opponent's armor when they arrive.

Fire Prisms I do like the Prism, but it's one of those units where you really need 2 to get the most out of their potential. (twin linking and boosting the power on the shot.) However, to do that, you're using 66.66% of your Heavy Support slot to do that. And they are also fragile, even with the holo-field upgrades. 5th edition has not been friendly to skimmers...

As to your questions:

1) Yes, you can go 36" in the turn with Star Engines. However, the FAQ ruling states that you get the extra 12" movement in the shooting phase, which to me seems to be quite ridiculous.

2) Banshee Masks only ignore the initiative bonus from grenades. So they would still be affected by the funky GK grenade stuff. Hopefully that door now being opened, we'll see some cool eldar grenades in the new codex (whenever it gets released....)

3) Phoenix Lord powers are a bit funky--some affect the entire unit (Karandras' stealth, for example) while others are just the P-Lord. (EG: Jain Zar's furious charge is just for her, not the unit.) Common sense should be used to ensure you and your opponent are in synch.





[ QUOTE=Wildcard;164621]Awesome post, thanks for it :)

I know that after that the next step is still some time away, but anyway what about a quick rundown of the following units:

- Swooping hawks (vs) Warp Spiders
- Wave Serpents (in general) and when compared to Falcons (seems alot similar to me, save for the transport capacity)
- Fire Dragons must choice for popping up tanks and transports? Or is there a unit(s) with similar roles?
- War Walkers & Fire Prisms (more info the better, friend starting eldar specifically asked from these)

--
Few notes i've glimpsed from the rules:
- Is it true that with star engines you can potentially go 36" in a round (24" for flat out + 12" for not shooting?)
- Banshee masks (ignore grenades part): They ignore each and every grenade there is (GK rad & psykostroke, plaguemarine blight grenades, normal frag grenades (mean do they negate the assaulting players Initiative-modifiers when assaulting in cover... etc. in short: Truly all of them? :) )
/EDIT
-All the bonuses / special rules you get from aspect Exarchs & Phoenix Lords: Do they affect only the exarch/phoenix lord, or all members of the squad they are joined with?
EDIT/[/QUOTE]