blood angels vs grey knights

[Bibbums]

i am thinking if starting ba's, however as a close combat orientated army how can they beat the stronger gk, should space marines be the better option?

[celestialatc]

As a GK player, the BA units that scare me at the Furiso Dreadnought with the blood Talons (I think that's the gear that adds attacks as it hits). It is awesome in CC and tough for GKs to kill if it keeps hitting and keeps adding those attacks! You just have to hope your Hammer survives.

Also, BA are not just CC heavy. They also can be melta heavy. If you know you are going to have a hard time in CC, stay out of it and just go with meltas! A bunch of Sangunary Guard with inferno pistols are awesome. And with Dante you can make surgical strikes and if you get into CC atleast they have power weapons. Sure you will probably not go first but you can get some attacks in.

Just remember, GKs almost never negate 3+ armor in shooting, so you can use that to your advantage and get the powerful shots in. Sure the GKs can have a lot of shooting but at least you will get your armor save 95% of the time.

[A Barb]

i am thinking if starting ba's, however as a close combat orientated army how can they beat the stronger gk, should space marines be the better option?

I am a BA and I have had good luck with GK's. The Furioso draws a lot of fire because it can cut through units like butter. Also Flamestorm cannons are a space marine killer. In almost every game the flamestorms on the LRR have killed a unit with the first shoot. You do need to think your moves out because GK's can hurt you fast with fire.:D

[Sanguineone]

Space Marines will allow you to use some of the more traditional military formations........I think(I'd have to check the codex Astartes for that). Line formations with Thunderfire support. Check out the first Salamanders book for a really great description of what I mean.
Or the Blood Angels......still have some of the support options that codex chapters have but you will have to gear your tactics to getting in their face rather than forming a square.
Can you edit the name of thread? Throw Ultramarines in there and maybe some will get back to you with their tactics so you can take your pick.

[Denied]

As a GK player, BA is a viable opponent. This is not the case with Vanilla Space Marines at the moment. The best built SM lists will get wrecked by even a semi competent GK list. BA has two really good list structures out there for competitive play and both can do a lot of damage to GK lists, Razorback spam and Storm Raven/ Drop pod assault. Both of these lists are strong in the tournament scene at the moment, and with reason. SR/DP Assault gets in your face and even though GK's are strong in CC, they are nothing when compared to a furioso dread or death company. Razor spam allows you the ability to out range GK Psycannons and a lot of high STR low AP shooting, this means things are going to die, and then you back it up with your assault abilities and mobility and your sitting pretty.

Remember GK's are strong at mid range their entire tactic is to shoot you with a hail of Storm Bolters and Psycannons and then assault softened targets with their I6 halberds (or Death Cult Assassins). It's a hard one two combo if they pull it off, but if you can out range/ maneuver them you will be able to steal charges and avoid a good amount of fire power.

Also as a BA player you have good access to cheaper AV14 vehicles and most of the GK lists that are in the tournament scene have a hard time with multiple AV14 vehicles on the board.

[Kawauso]

As a GK player, BA is a viable opponent. This is not the case with Vanilla Space Marines at the moment. The best built SM lists will get wrecked by even a semi competent GK list.

I 100% disagree.

My SM army has never had a problem with the new GK and has won against them consistently.

My BA army has a much tougher time, because it's all jumpers and usually winds up being a smaller, even more elite force than the GK builds it goes up against.

[plawolf]

BA really got shafted hard by the GK Halberts and cleansing flame, as they are supposed to be the super-aggressive in-your-face CC army, but they fall flat on their face when going against GKs because of Halberts and CF.

A lot of BA players have trouble with GK because their default strategy of 'get into CC ASAP' just doesn't cut it most of the time, and their lists and players often struggle to come up with a viable plan B.

Most GKSS will only have swords because of cost, so these are the guys your RAS should be focusing on, and with priests support, you should go first and really do a number on them before they can swing back, if they get to swing back at all.

Against termis, Paladins and Purifiers, your best bet would be to stay out of CC and shoot them first.

GKs don't have AP3 weapons for their infantry, and only the odd rending psycannon shot will ignore PA, but you will still get a FNP save against that if you have a priest nearby (as you should). OTOH, BA can load up on a lot of plasma and melta weapons. I prefer plasma on account of the extra shot and longer range. So in a shooting match, BA could hold their own, and would certainly have a much better chance than taking on GK termis and elites in CC.

BA's ability to take storm shields in honor guard and vanguard squads could also be exploited, since Draigo seems to be hogging Titan's only storm shield. That should help your heavy hitters to stay around long enough to do some damage in CC.

As others have pointed out, GK infantry units lack long range firepower, but this is almost always compensated by the mandatory 2-6 psyrifle dreads. These guys will eat razor spam for breakfast and come back asking for more.

However, these guys will also always be packing twin autocannons, so just drop some RAS with powerfists on them. Even if you don't kill them, that should tie the dreads up for much of the game.

If the GK player pulls other units back to help the dreads out, great, 5 men RAS are expendable for BA, so just focus and kill the rest of the GK army now that they are split up. This will screw GK up even more when its an objective game.

[Wildcard]

and only the odd rending psycannon shot will ignore PA, but you will still get a FNP save against that if you have a priest nearby (as you should)

Not 100% sure, but i think rending shot makes that shots AP2, which is on the list that does not allow FNP.
I dont have rulebook with me right now, so i cant check the pages or quote it for you, but anyway i think its the case

[Wolfshade]

Not 100% sure, but i think rending shot makes that shots AP2, which is on the list that does not allow FNP.
I dont have rulebook with me right now, so i cant check the pages or quote it for you, but anyway i think its the case

Yup, if you can't make an armour save against it you can't use feel no pain

[A Barb]

With playing GK it is all about planing your moves. Against GK Halberts and depends on the squad I hit them with Mephiston. I have had very good luck with wiping them out with him. A BA player just needs to use his/her speed to pick your battles. Also I have more trouble with Wolves not GK, but that is me. :D

[DarkLink]

As a GK player, I've always had an easy time dealing with Mephiston. Feed him a sacrificial unit, then counter assault (because even in objective games you should never spread out more than necessary, and even then only at the last minute). Plus, half the time Mephiston's gotten into assault with a full 10 GKSS I've managed to kill him with just them. And if my opponent dedicates a RAS to the assault as well, that's just more easy prey for me. 10 GKT plus a Grand Master with grenades will kill almost anything on the charge.

[Kawauso]

Yup, if you can't make an armour save against it you can't use feel no pain

Not exactly.
FNP is negated by AP1, AP2, anything that would cause ID (i.e. S8 vs. T4), and weapons that ignore armour saves in close combat.

AP3-6 can all have FNP saves taken against them.

[Hive Mind]

You can make armour saves against AP3-6. Nothing has an armour save of 1+ so you can't make armour saves against AP1-2 so you can't take FNP rolls if you can't make an armour save against it.

[plawolf]

Not exactly.
FNP is negated by AP1, AP2, anything that would cause ID (i.e. S8 vs. T4), and weapons that ignore armour saves in close combat.

AP3-6 can all have FNP saves taken against them.

No brainfart on my part originally. Rending wounds will not allow a FNP save as it does not allow an armor save (in shooting or CC) and is even listed as an example of things FNP is not allowed against in the BBB.

[Da Gargoyle]

I am interested to note that in a number of the threads no body has mentioned the assasin options available to GK. In the two GK armies I gamed against the other night, both used a Vindicare Assassin with exitus rifle which seems to allow them to nominate a target and get a higher percentage kill with the rifle. It also has a reasonable option for taking out vehicles and ignoring invulnerable saves. Combined with a Storm raven the first GK army I fought was quite formidable and unbeaten in 3 games for the night. I lost by not killing the Storm Raven contesting an objective.

I would imagine that a specialist BA army would be quite vulnerable to this combination. Lots of ranged shots that could be rerolled and the capacity to deliver a GK dread anywhere on the battle field assault that turn. This may also include assault troops in support of the dread.

[Denied]

I am interested to note that in a number of the threads no body has mentioned the assasin options available to GK. In the two GK armies I gamed against the other night, both used a Vindicare Assassin with exitus rifle which seems to allow them to nominate a target and get a higher percentage kill with the rifle. It also has a reasonable option for taking out vehicles and ignoring invulnerable saves. Combined with a Storm raven the first GK army I fought was quite formidable and unbeaten in 3 games for the night. I lost by not killing the Storm Raven contesting an objective.

I would imagine that a specialist BA army would be quite vulnerable to this combination. Lots of ranged shots that could be rerolled and the capacity to deliver a GK dread anywhere on the battle field assault that turn. This may also include assault troops in support of the dread.

The thing is in the tournament meta the Vindicare is too expensive for an easily killed unit. I have played (using IG) against 3 GK players who took a Vindicare and the assassin was dead before he did anything of use.

Also Storm Ravens tend not to be prominent in GK list because again its too expensive and only AV12 so its not going to last long. In high point games where you can afford to play with like 2-3 SR it is more viable, but if its a choice between another GKSS in a Rhino/ Razorback or a SR I will take the GKSS.

[Bibbums]

thanks for the help

[edde79]

As a GK player, BA is a viable opponent. This is not the case with Vanilla Space Marines at the moment. The best built SM lists will get wrecked by even a semi competent GK list. BA has two really good list structures out there for competitive play and both can do a lot of damage to GK lists, Razorback spam and Storm Raven/ Drop pod assault. Both of these lists are strong in the tournament scene at the moment, and with reason. SR/DP Assault gets in your face and even though GK's are strong in CC, they are nothing when compared to a furioso dread or death company. Razor spam allows you the ability to out range GK Psycannons and a lot of high STR low AP shooting, this means things are going to die, and then you back it up with your assault abilities and mobility and your sitting pretty.

Remember GK's are strong at mid range their entire tactic is to shoot you with a hail of Storm Bolters and Psycannons and then assault softened targets with their I6 halberds (or Death Cult Assassins). It's a hard one two combo if they pull it off, but if you can out range/ maneuver them you will be able to steal charges and avoid a good amount of fire power.

Also as a BA player you have good access to cheaper AV14 vehicles and most of the GK lists that are in the tournament scene have a hard time with multiple AV14 vehicles on the board.

can you post approx list for SR/ DP assault?
Never seen that one...

[Dok]

All PA blood angels is one of the armies I have a tough time beating with my GK. They have the mobility to dictate where combat will take place and the firepower to take down my vehicles and squads with 2 meltas per unit. Devastators are particularly hard to deal with as they will generally have fnp and cannot be killed or suppressed in one **** like most HS vehicles can.