Why bother with Sixth Edition?

[Staxer]

With all these rumours of the impeding sixth Edition release for 40K I have my doubts if I will actually buy it.

The reasons being cost and sticking to what I know despite its flaws.

If GW actually reduced the price of the rules from £35 to £15 would that not encourage most people including me to buy it.

If the rules they actually released worked correctly from the outset and not a radical change from the current rules. Warhammer Fantasy is very intimidating to learn when presented with such a huge rule book.

What do you think?

[theHman]

I think you should play a better game like warmachine.

40k's rules are bunk and always will be.
I should know, I started playing with Rogue trader and have watched GW over the last 20 years screw up their rule set time and time again.

[Mr.Pickelz]

When 6th ed does get released, their probably going to do something similar to 8th ed. fantasy, with the limited editions and such. I don't think they would do as many utensils as they had for fantasy, like the dice/fold out ruler/markers/etc... but if they were to make 40k dice, I'd probably pick up some. ;)

[Hive Mind]

40k's rules are fine. The problem is that a lot of people suffer from terrible reading comprehension and can't follow a logical thought process. They get confused about the rules and rather than recognising some internal deficiency, they externalise the problem (as is human nature) and blame the rules being "badly written".

All that said, I probably won't bother with 6th Ed. either. I can already tell it's just going to be a marketing tool to sell flyers.

[Wildeybeast]

If GW actually reduced the price of the rules from £35 to £15 would that not encourage most people including me to buy it.

I would suggest that a new 304 page hardback A4 size book with an number of pictures/illustrations for £15 is exceptionally good value. £25 would be a bit more realistic.

[Sanguineone]

I think I would probably stay with 5th edition. It would be my dearest hope that GW decides to support all the current armies out there and perhaps expands a bit more on 5th edition with the addition of a few more. Then when all that is out the way, be smart and cash in because believe me people would buy this..............do army specific expansions.
Tyranid player doesn't quite feel this eddition, something missing.........have a nice new Genestealer Cults Codex. Uses the same models and introduces a few new ones.
Spacewolf player lost interest in using named characters.........blam Wolfguard codex uber elite Wolf Lord lead units.
The potential is limitless for expansion, Unforgiven Codex, Exodite Codex, Mechanicum Codex, Ork Empires Codex, Craftworld specific codex...........and then....when it it completely broken, unbalanced, complicated, competative to the detriment of fun, and you just can't do anything more to it......and only then, bring out a 6th edition.

[Sanguineone]

I think I would probably stay with 5th edition. It would be my dearest hope that GW decides to support all the current armies out there and perhaps expands a bit more on 5th edition with the addition of a few more. Then when all that is out the way, be smart and cash in because believe me people would buy this..............do army specific expansions.
Tyranid player doesn't quite feel this eddition, something missing.........have a nice new Genestealer Cults Codex. Uses the same models and introduces a few new ones.
Spacewolf player lost interest in using named characters.........blam Wolfguard codex uber elite Wolf Lord lead units.
The potential is limitless for expansion, Unforgiven Codex, Exodite Codex, Mechanicum Codex, Ork Empires Codex, Craftworld specific codex...........and then....when it it completely broken, unbalanced, complicated, competative to the detriment of fun, and you just can't do anything more to it......and only then, bring out a 6th edition.

[Lerra]

The problem is, I don't want a 300-page full color tome. I'd rather have a compact, cheap, paperback rulebook like what came in the AoBR box. Have a collector's rulebook with the pretty pictures and the fluff. I'd rather not have to haul a 10-lb book with me to every game.

[Morgan Darkstar]

I think you should play a better game like warmachine.

40k's rules are bunk and always will be.
I should know, I started playing with Rogue trader and have watched GW over the last 20 years screw up their rule set time and time again.

Me and tens of thousands of people disagree with you, get back to your section under 40k and fantasy :p

[Wildeybeast]

40k's rules are fine. The problem is that a lot of people suffer from terrible reading comprehension and can't follow a logical thought process. They get confused about the rules and rather than recognising some internal deficiency, they externalise the problem (as is human nature) and blame the rules being "badly written".

Really? There are people like that? I can't think who you might be refering to :D

[vharing]

I think you should play a better game like warmachine.

40k's rules are bunk and always will be.
I should know, I started playing with Rogue trader and have watched GW over the last 20 years screw up their rule set time and time again.

It is people like this that make me hate Warma/Hordes. I am no longer part of the gaming club I was a member of for 8 years because of that. I have $500 worth of fantasy collecting dust because after 8th Ed no one would play it. I have $1500 worth of 40K sitting collecting dust because no one there would play that either. No one could be bothered to take the time to learn the ins and outs of the new rule system and so it was pushed aside. Every one at the club focused on the few weird things like dwarfs marching forests and lost interest. Everyone is so worried about game shattering changes to 40K but, everyone fails to think back to the transition 2nd to 3rd Ed. It was like going from high school back to kindergarten, but everyone kept playing and now we are looking at the dawn of 6th Ed.

[Pikante]

I look at it this way. Another edition another challenge, and another way to play the hobby I have been enjoying for years. Will it be perfect, no. Will it be amazing, probably not. Will it be different yes.

Overall I like the direction the game is going (And that's saying something as I mostly play nids) and you know, new stuff just means I can keep enjoying and have fun with said hobby. That's not for everyone and we all need to learn to respect that, but either way it's what will happen.

There is always the option of playing throw back games, as those are always allot of fun, and ironically after playing them make me respect the new edition, and see where improvements have been made.

tl;dr: the journey is more fun than the destination, especially with hobbies.

[Slug]

Because it's shiny and new, and the bargains I can get in Aus just keep making me come back. Really though that's why, Because it will be different, change everything up a bit, I'm sure old problems will get fixed and new ones arise, but hopefully that will led to my foot guard being superior and over all it will probably be better, plus I love the massive new books like fantasy have.

[Wolfshade]

I look forward to it. :D

I've been playing since 2nd edition and on balance each edition was an improvement on the previous. I am including 3rd edtion which I hated, curse you for taking my beloved 2nd ed. away. Each edtion brings in new ideas and new way of doing things some of them good some of them bad, but all based on information from having spent the past x years having the game played by non-designers.

3rd streamlined the game and made it much easier to play than 2nd edition, it also made it easier to play with larger armies (though some would say it was a tool to make people spend twice as miuch money to reach the same points limit, I would not disagree). It also made things less random.

4th got rid of that horrible cross fire rule and made some more tweaks but wasn't a major step forward

5th introduced true line of sight, gone are the days of "well yes you can see my marine, but its actually hidden" but now we have "I can see the top of your banner poll so I can shoot you but you can't shoot me!". Ramming came back as did running, and tin boxes became less voilitile. But most importantly of all the timeframe moved on. This was a major shift from the the imperium of man fighting to remain static to the imperium of man in decline.

I am very excited to see what comes next, also, if you look at the value of the starter box in 5th ed compared to previous it was tremendous in terms of quality of minatures and quantity!

[thecactusman17]

We wouldn't need a 6th edition if the game had well-written rules. Right now, a radical shift may very well help the game by clearing up constant poorly written rules being released by several of the current codex writers (her's lookin' at you, Matt). Then those rules are clearly not being checked to fit in with the other rules.

People at my FLGS are happily turning to Warmachine/Hordes, and the reason is the damn rules. When we play Warmachine, there are rules questions but that's because people are still unfamiliar with the basics, never mind all the weird combos you can do. In 40k, there are rules questions because the actual rules, sometimes especially after the "clarifications" in the FAQs, just don't make any sense. When you play WarmaHordes, there are defined rules, happily defined in the rulebook to the letter. Exceptions to those rules are laid out in plain English, and if you have a question about the wording, you can find an answer either in the rulebook or your favorite dictionary. One or the other.

40k can't even figure out when a psychic power is supposed to end, or which units should be legal in a normal game.

[Anggul]

As long as it doesn't fail like 8th ed Fantasy did (I'm gonna stick to 7th ed), I'll probably play it.

[Wildeybeast]

As long as it doesn't fail like 8th ed Fantasy did (I'm gonna stick to 7th ed), I'll probably play it.

You may not like the current fantasy rules, but to call it a fail is to suggest that they don't work. They work perfectly well (at least they will do when all the army books get updated), they just may not be everyone's cup of tea. I for one would like to see pre-measuring carried over from fantasy into 40k.

[Rapture]

Public Service Announcement:

Dear 'Warmachine is Better People',

With all due respect, we don't care what you think. If you want to play a game where some David Blane character with a 10 foot tall sword gets chased around by a walking license plate press, then that is fine. We will not look down on you for it (at least not publicly). However, we think that our rules, while not perfect, are satisfactory. More than half of us are fully capable of mastering the uber-complicated 'We'll Be Back' rule and some of us can even wrap our heads around the intimidating wound allocation system. As a matter of fact, most of us have the 7th grade education required to use context to wade through some of the muddy areas and come out unharmed. Besides, any angst that we feel against the rules is easily overcome by our superior models and large scale conflicts with actual tanks instead of horse drawn carriages.

Sincerely,
40k

End

A little more on topic:
I am worried about the introduction of flyers if it should happen. I think that a 4x6 table isn't quite enough room for a jet to be blasting around. for more than 1 turn. I might ignore them entirely even if they are a focus of the next rule set. Rumors so for have been pretty spotty and there is never any knowing about their reliability, but the idea of tiered USRs sounds interesting. I am a big fan of variation. So hopefully the 6th edition will allow for more unique opponents.

[DarkLink]

Warmachine is a pretty awesome game. And for people who don't want to deal with rules issues that don't have a clear resolution, it's far better at that than 40k is. You'll just have to put up with internet haterz who think that just because there's another good game that people are starting to play that obviously means that you think 40k is inferior in ever possible way :rolleyes:.

[MaxKool]

Really? There are people like that? I can't think who you might be refering to :D

Liar! There are no people like that... ;)
I just opened my brb today and found a whole bunch of things to do and it dosnt say I can't do them... So who needs 6th Ed hehe

I hope they include a definition of permissive ruleset in the opening pages...
Cause some morons don't understand what that means... Other than that I welcome or mighty 6th Ed overlords..

[Anggul]

You may not like the current fantasy rules, but to call it a fail is to suggest that they don't work. They work perfectly well (at least they will do when all the army books get updated), they just may not be everyone's cup of tea. I for one would like to see pre-measuring carried over from fantasy into 40k.

Have you ever tried to actually charge anything? You might fly forward quicker than is physically possible, or you might just fall flat on your face. In the little 8th ed I've played, most of the combat units spent more time failing charges which they should reasonably have been able to make than actually doing anything.

I really hope they don't carry over pre-measuring. However it was, I suppose, more of a blow to Fantasy (where you have to manoeuvre) than it would be to 40k.

[Slug]

On average though charging range will be determined by movement values not random luck, you do occasionally get a failed charge due to a double one but in general it works, plus when things do happen it's good it gives you the ability to form a grey zone where they have a higher chance of not getting the charge then hitting you, it adds some extra tactics about charges and I have one and lost games due to that grey area. Pre-measuring doesn't worry me anymore, it takes away some of the annoying things when you miss with cannons by an inch or less.

[Dyrnwyn]

6th ed? I haven't bothered to keep up with the rumors, but I will give it a look over when it comes out. I stopped playing 40k because of the boring, repetitive nature of 5th ed, and the increasingly silly fluff and rules. I hope 6th changes the game for the better.

[thecactusman17]

Liar! There are no people like that... ;)
I just opened my brb today and found a whole bunch of things to do and it dosnt say I can't do them... So who needs 6th Ed hehe

I hope they include a definition of permissive ruleset in the opening pages...
Cause some morons don't understand what that means... Other than that I welcome or mighty 6th Ed overlords..

Here's the problem: Warhammer right now isn't a "permissive" ruleset, because a permissive ruleset would still maintain rules consistency while encouraging you to create new scenarios with rules definitions to accomodate them. This is currently a game where codex writers don't even follow the limitations on special weapons in a squad that they wrote rules for.

Warmachine IS a permissive ruleset. You can easily create new rules, new system, new Jacks or battle engines (some of the first games I ever played involved our FLGS rep creating rules for ships! Ships!). And the crazy thing is, you can have those exist alongside the old models without issue because the rules are specific enough to handle what happens in any scenario, and the exceptions that you might create are just as clear because when there is a question, the ruleset usually STILL answers it. That's how comprehensive the system is.

If Warhammer 40k could manage that they really wouldn't need a new edition until they wanted to really change the game up dramatically.

[Hive Mind]

Calling the waahmbulance.

Did you know that 70% of the population being too stupid to understand Bertrand Russell's books doesn't make him a bad writer?

[The Madman]

Have you ever tried to actually charge anything? You might fly forward quicker than is physically possible, or you might just fall flat on your face. In the little 8th ed I've played, most of the combat units spent more time failing charges which they should reasonably have been able to make than actually doing anything.

I really hope they don't carry over pre-measuring. However it was, I suppose, more of a blow to Fantasy (where you have to manoeuvre) than it would be to 40k.

It is a poor shepherd to blame his flock.

[Wildeybeast]

Have you ever tried to actually charge anything? You might fly forward quicker than is physically possible, or you might just fall flat on your face. In the little 8th ed I've played, most of the combat units spent more time failing charges which they should reasonably have been able to make than actually doing anything.

Then that is either a)very bad luck on your part or b) very bad planning on your part. Measure the distance and subtract your movement from it. If you are left with a number of 6 or below, you have a good chance of making it and can feel hard done by if you don't. Anything over and you are chancing your arm a bit. I really don't see how this is anything more random or unreasonable than having to guess. And I was actually refering to premeasuring in general, rather than just charging. It seems retarded that your own men would not know how far their guns can fire and would blaze away at an enemy, only to find their bullets falling short. Premeasuring is designed to represent that your soldiers have some idea of battlefield distances and that your general is an at least halfway competent commander. And the fact that Dreadfleet also features pre-measuring would suggest this is the way the design studio is going now.

[Slug]

To be honest people who say premeasuring is unrealistic are wrong, no argument. Any decent artilleryman would be able to judge distances and anyone with a gun would know how far they can shoot, any decent junior officer would know roughly when to start a charge.
So if it's realistic in Fantasy then surely in 40k there would be range finders and such everywhere so it makes sense to have premeasuring in 40k.

[Anggul]

It is a poor shepherd to blame his flock.

I think you'll find I'm blaming the guy who sold me the sheep.

[dwez]

If GW actually reduced the price of the rules from £35 to £15 would that not encourage most people including me to buy it.

If recent GW behaviour has anything to go by then I'd expect the next version to be more expensive, but hopefully with considerably more stuff in the box and fancier figures. Equally Finecast was something a lot of folks thought would end up bringing prices down, surely they were going a non-metal route because of the soaring costs but no we all got stung for R&D, setup and miscast costs [although no tme as I've still not got any Finecast].

However I see the way they could potentially up the cost, add value and bring in new players:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1980465a_Blog170911_GamingMat_XL.jpg

Having created the sea-scape mat for Dreadfleet why not make a 6' x 4' version but for 40k [and WFB even]? The print quality on the sheet was awesome and I'm sure they could do a whole lot of alternate 'realms' to sell outside of the starter set like:


Cityscape
Chaos Waste
Ice planet
Desert
Jungle
Alien infestation
Oh, and Red Planet!


Sure there's a chance it'll cannibalize their realm of battle boards but they're £155 and not everyone is going to purchase that and want to paint it as well. They already do the Citadel Battle mat for £19 (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2060001) and I guarantee the Dreadfleet mat was cheaper to produce, which means a higher return on each one sold and with a few different designs they may even encourage folk to buy more than one battlemat.

Ultimately, if you finally add in the battlefield to their games which has always been missing there's a whole lot of new doors that will open for a 'starter set'. Beginner's will really feel they are getting bang for their buck. Just my thoughts.

[Wildeybeast]

Having created the sea-scape mat for Dreadfleet why not make a 6' x 4' version but for 40k [and WFB even]? The print quality on the sheet was awesome and I'm sure they could do a whole lot of alternate 'realms' to sell outside of the starter

You mean like this? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440158a&prodId=prod2060001

[dwez]

You mean like this? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440158a&prodId=prod2060001

Well that serves a purpose indeed but the incentive for GW not to continue with that is why i wrote this


They already do the Citadel Battle mat for £19 (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2060001) and I guarantee the Dreadfleet mat was cheaper to produce, which means a higher return on each one sold and with a few different designs they may even encourage folk to buy more than one battlemat.

The Dreadfleet mat has considerably more detail in the print and I'd imagine that there are plenty more companies out there who can print on heavy weight materials which increases competition which will bring down the cost for GW which allows them a greater profit than the few specialist manufactures who will be putting modelling flock onto some fabric/backing material.

Also the existing battlemat only gives that green pasture look whereas a printed one could be any of the half dozen or more battlefield types I listed or any they list on their 'how to paint bases' section:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=2&aId=9800023a&start=3&multiPageMode=true

[Emerald Rose Widow]

To be honest people who say premeasuring is unrealistic are wrong, no argument. Any decent artilleryman would be able to judge distances and anyone with a gun would know how far they can shoot, any decent junior officer would know roughly when to start a charge.
So if it's realistic in Fantasy then surely in 40k there would be range finders and such everywhere so it makes sense to have premeasuring in 40k.

Here is a better way to look at it, we are talking far far in the future. To this day we have advanced targeting technologies to make firing and hitting easier, as well as distance measurements. So to think that all these technologically advanced races cannot tell how far they can shoot.....its a bit silly to think that. I mean the only race that wouldn't have targetting devices are the tyranid, and even then they would have evolved basic ability to know how far you can shoot into their bioweapons and biomorphs.

so the fact that in a game where the technology for distancefinding does not exist can premeasure, but a technological era where they have the technology cannot always seemed odd to me.

[Tynskel]

who's to say that the bugs don't have targeting arrays. If you look at the animal kingdom, certain animals have accuracy over long distances just based upon their own sensory organs. These organs are well developed. Now imagine an organism whose whole mission in life is to make it easier for for the gun to hit...