What's with Razorback spam?

[foostufoo]

Just seen it mentioned a few times now, probably a nooby question.

Was wondering what all the fuss was about Razorback spam?

Cheers in advanced! :)

[SonicPara]

It is an (relatively) inexpensive way to get armor on the table and, since they are transports, they can also be used as armored scoring units. Sure anti-tank weapons will shred AV11 but the Razorback essentially protects your troops from the opponent's small-arms fire so they typically have more staying power than a 5-man unit of footslogging marines.

They also come with an array of weapon options that allow you to kit them for anti-tank or anti-infantry.

[Hive Mind]

It's just another way that unimaginative players can use their unimaginative armies to defeat other armies without actually having to bother doing any thinking.

I'm led to believe that some tournaments (most notably Flaccid Boyz, if my sources are correct) have introduced a system whereby whichever competitor can cram the most Razorbacks in their army wins without a dice even being thrown. Makes things a lot faster.

[DarkLink]

In addition to large amounts of armor for protection, you get some other advantages. A 5 man unit of Marines with a meltagun and a Razorback with a heavy weapon, for example, has more high str/ap weapons per point than taking full 10 man squads. So overall you have more lascannons, plasmaguns, meltaguns and the like in your army.

Secondly, Razorback spam is what you can call MSU (multiple small units). They are very efficient in the shooting phase, because they can spread out their firepower and target a lot of different units.

As an example, compare a unit of Paladins with 4 psycannons to a4, 5 man Grey Knight Strike Squad units with a single psycannon each. The Paladins can only target one thing with their psycannon, and that will probably result in a lot of overkill. Plus, if your opponent has more than 6 units then your Paladins can't hurt all your opponent's units, even over the course of the game.

The MSU Strike Squads, however, can target multiple units per turn. You can potentially pop 4 enemy vehicles. Or if you need to kill a particular unit, you can target it with one psycannon at a time. If you're lucky, the first psycannon will kill it, and you can shoot other stuff with the other 3 psycannons. Paladins can't do that.




So MSU (and Razorback spam by extension) have a mathmatical advantage in offensive shooting by being able to target more enemy units and to utilize their firepower more efficiently.

MSU is, however, more fragile in general. It's not that hard to kill a single Razorback or 5 man squad of Marines, so it's possible to roll up an MSU army one unit at a time if you can survive their firepower. This is particularly true in close combat, where bodies matter. A dedicated assault unit can walk through an entire army of 5 man Marine units if they can avoid getting shot to death.

Lastly, MSU armies tend to have a large footprint. Because you have so many vehicles, you take up a lot of physical space on the board. This is generally bad, because if your opponent's army is smaller and more concentrated than yours then you might not be able to bring your entire army to bear against theirs. Your front units will be in shooting range, but your back units will have obstructed line of sight and will be far enough away that your shooting will be limited and you won't be able to move into assault if need be. Thus, a concentrated enemy can overwhelm your frontline of units before your backline can do anything to help them, and then half your army is dead compared to their few casualties.


In general, though, offense trumps defense and shooting is more valuable than close combat (keep in mind you have to destroy all those razorbacks before being able to assault the Marines inside, which is tough for most armies to do reliably). Thus, MSU is pretty popular amongst tournament players.

[Tynskel]

Generally, if people played with more terrain, too many tanks becomes a major drawback.

[Da Gargoyle]

I reckon Hive Mind is a little harsh in his inference that razor back users are unimaginative. I rather think the enemy that can't handle them is unimaginative. I do use the Eldar equivalent though, the old wave serpent, usually kitted with missiles or scatter lasers. They cost more than Razor Backs but are tougher, carry more troops and hit as hard.

As for the razors, missiles from the front or flank them and S6 or better from the sides. If you can get them to blow, you might have less than 5 marines to pummel.

And I've been meaning to ask Hive Mind, whats so bad about being touched by a noodly appendage? If you win it means calamari for tea

[Hive Mind]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being Touched by His Noodly Appendage. It is, on the contrary, a blessing.

All hail the FSM.

[Da Gargoyle]

"There is absolutely nothing wrong with being Touched by His Noodly Appendage. It is, on the contrary, a blessing. "

Ahh!! And thus I have been educated a little more in this strange universe.:p

[DarkLink]

I reckon Hive Mind is a little harsh in his inference that razor back users are unimaginative.

There is a sort of counter-culture movement within 40k that holds that anyone that doesn't play the game the way they think it should be played is either stupid or a douche. Ignore the hypocricy, and play whatever army you like, for whatever reason you like.

[doom-kitten]

Curious here but would a Five man combat squad with melta, powerfist, razorback with Lascannon be cheaper than a 10 man tactical squad with meltagun, missile launcher, powerfist and rhino? I don't have the marine codex to look this up. Personally I think it's not unimaginative now that I read DarkLinks post but rather a smart way to get around not being able to seperate fire and would be a pain to play against in an objective based scenario.
Of course putting out the cash for enough Razorbacks would be daunting :D (coming from someone who shelled out for 8 rhinos).

[DarkLink]

Vanilla Marines don't really do razorback spam very well. The other Marine codices have more special rules that make the small units useful.

In general, you're going very minimal on upgrades, so no powerfist. You're already in trouble if you get into CC anyways, so most people don't bother throwing points on a bad bet.

But just for comparison, look at a SW spam list:
5 Grey Hunters, meltagun, Wolf Guard with combi-melta, Razorback with Lascannon/TL Plasma rifle.....178

You get 6 guys, 2 meltaguns, a TL plasma rifle and a Lascannon. Take 4, two with melta and two with flamers, and that's some pretty solid firepower. In just troops, you've got enough firepower to kill vehicles from across the board, really kill light vehicles and/or units with 2+ saves, and you have 4 units that can spread out and claim objectives while your opponent is busy dealing with your more aggressive units like Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Maxing out each squad forces you to take Rhinos instead of Razorbacks, so you pay points in order to lose a lot of your flexibility only to gain a few more bodies and an extra special weapon (which doesn't make up for the ones you lost downgrading your Razorback).




Those 4 units cost ~700pts. 3 units of 9 with a standard and wolf guard with powerfist and combi weapon costs 600pts. Razorback spam gets you 4 rhino chassis, 24 guys with four special weapon, four combi weapons, four lascannons and four TL plasmaguns for 16 special weapons total. Non-spam gets you 30 guys, 3 vehicles, and only 6 special weapons instead of 16, though you do get powerfists.

See the difference?

[w7west]

Razorbacks are good because they are cheap and each army has options to make them excellent heavy weapon platforms.

Blood angels have fast razorbacks iirc. This is balanced because they are not immune to shaken and stunned.

GK razorbacks are immune to shaken and stunned and have tw heavy bolters at str 6. This is balanced because they are not fast.

Wolf razorbacks are easy ways to get lascannon + twinlinked plasma guns. This is balanced because space wolfs can only take three longfang squads.


The reason why they are really good is you can put purifiers inside of them. Who cares what the transport does, these guys are gonna win anyway, its what they do!!

Now objectively speaking, I would say the true strength of the razorback is simple and is a result of a different facet of this game right now. MSU is the best way to go since many armies can spam good weapons in small squads and still be effective and able to score while being cheap. Obviously they will want a transport so that their small number is not much of a weakness.

So the choice is either take a rhino, or a razorback. Rhinos are neat and have fire points. Razorbacks are like 15 points (could be 20? sounds expensive for a Ward codex tho) more for three twinlinked bs4 str 6 range 36" shots that ignore 1's and 2's and can still carry your MSU's around. So does exact same thing as rhino just you get another heavy weapon to shoot at the other guys razorbacks.

If you are wondering, yes the game is currently focused on who has the best tactics for killing razorbacks with their razorbacks. These years will be known as the Ward ages and will be a mark of shame in the long history of the 40k universe.

is a small point increase worth

[DarkLink]

Uh-huh. Yeah, razorback spam is pretty good, but it's not that good. It's only one of a half dozen viable SW/BA builds, and the defining feature of razorspam GK list aren't razorbacks, they're Purifiers who happen to have some razorbacks.

You cannot complain about Ward's codices causing razorspam, because the premier razorspam army (space wolves) is Kelly's work, and all of Ward's codices have an extremely wide variety of very competitive lists, far be it from the supposed end-all of razorback spam.

[Denied]

So, the question is are you set on playing generic codex space marines for some reason? It sounds like you need to buy and build a bunch of guys as it is, and if you want to create a competitive list (ie Razor spam) you are better off building a Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Grey Knights (I am a fan of the last one myself).

[Xenith]

They cost more than Razor Backs but are tougher, carry more troops and hit as hard.

The key thing is the cost: You can get 2 las/plas razors for the same cost as a single serpent.

[DarkLink]

And not only does a wave serpent not carry more troops or have more firepower than two lasplas razorbacks, but in order to be more durable you really need to turboboost, preventing you from doing anything else at all.

[Old_Paladin]

Actually,
The serpent can carry 12 troops; so it's equal to 2 razorbacks capacity.
The serpent is AV 12 on the front and the sides, plus it has the energy field special rule; all that and holo fields means it doesn't need to be moving flatout all the time to be safe.

The razorback has the weakness of only being able to fire a single weapon, unless it says still (except the blood angels version), the serpent doesn't have that problem. And the range of weapon loadouts for the serpent means you can tailor it to its cargo and your play style a lot better then the razorback.

I'm not saying either is better; they're both built differently and play differently, even given similar roles.
I'm just saying don't sell the one short.

[DarkLink]

First off, I said that wave serpents couldn't carry more than two razorbacks, not that they had a smaller capacity.

Secondly, whether or not one AV12 chassis is tougher than two AV11 ones is situational, and of course offense is the best defense in many cases so the razorbacks have an advantage there. It's cover saves and fortune that makes Eldar vehicles so notoriously tough.

Thirdly, two moving razorbacks have as much firepower as a stationary wave serpent. This is especially true in that Eldar rely heavily on mobility, whereas Marines don't. It's fine for a couple of razorbacks to sit still or only move 6" for significant portions of the game in most Marine lists. Mech Eldar need to be constantly zipping around to take advantage of their mobility, limiting their firepower just as often as you might with the razorbacks.


So, yes, wave serpents are faster. But they're not necessarily tougher, and they don't have as much firepower.

[Old_Paladin]

I still think serpents are more offensive then razorbacks.

The serpent can move 6" then throw down 7, S:6 shots, 4 of which are twin-linked (or move 12" and not take the additional 3 non-linked shots). That's a nice, well-rounded piece of firepower; lots of shots, good strength, can be used against light-vehicles or infantry.
The closest razorback that comes to that level of firepower is 'assault cannon' back, and those aren't that popular (except maybe with GK's).

Part of offense is the troops the transports can carry; and really, 5-6 marines aren't that offensive (and aren't overly survivable once their paperbox gets popped).
10 direavengers, with bladestorm and a farseer with guide and doom, are offensive.


The razorback also has the problem that it cannot build many synergies or combo's (you don't see any 5-man vanguard squads with a chappy in a razorback; or 5-man sternguard with a hellfire round equipped Captain).
You build one type of team and then have to take 3-4 of them to get the job done, as one alone will never really accomplish anything. They can end up being very tactically inflexable.

[DarkLink]

And two lasplas razorbacks can throw down 2 str 9 and 2-4 str 7 shots, all at AP 2. And they're BS4. And half of them are twin-linked.

And if we're comparing the dudes inside with Dire Avengers, then we can make an appropriate comparison. Two razorbacks means twelve Marines, two meltaguns and two combi-meltas (or flamers instead of melta, as appropriate), to use my example earlier. Blood Angels would get Marines with FNP, and have Fast vehicles as well. Grey Knights would have Purifiers, and we all know how that goes.

Against a horde of orks, yes, the wave serpent with dire avengers is better. Against armies with lots of vehicles and/or MEQ (aka most competitive armies) I'd take the dual razorback squads.


Not saying that wave serpents are bad, though they are a bit overpriced, but razorbacks with Marines are more flexible, better against the majority of armies in the game, and in general have better units in their armies to back them up. That's the important thing to remember, that there are other units in the army. We're not just looking at one wave serpent full of dire avengers versus two razorbacks full of Marines here. We're comparing a small part of two armies. In the case of razorbacks, we have some very potent strengths (tons of high strength and high ap shooting for very cheap), and any weakness can be covered by other supporting units in the army, such as THSS terminators in a Land Raider for counter assault. Simply from the state of competitive play, we can see empirical evidence that wave serpents and dire avengers generally lack the support to back them up the same way as with razorspam.

[Old_Paladin]

I hope you realize their is no universal 'state of competitive play'
The best you can say is 'the metagame in my region'

It's attitudes like that, that still see Orks as a top tier army. People say Orks aren't competitive, but 'competitive' players take almost only las/plas with melta; then get stomped by an average ork army, because they aren't ready to deal with it (then usually treat the ork player with distain, and say his winning army isn't maximinzed for the competitive level).

Personally, i'd rather save 50 points and take an AV13 predator with auto/las; then have full squads in rhino's.
___________________

Actually; I'll average out 2 las/plas razorback teams with dual melta shooting at MEQ in 4+cover; vs. a single serpent with scatter + 10 avengers with bladestorm.

2 'back squads [using the one-shot meltas]:
melta/plas (8) - 2.2 kills
bolts (12) - 1.3 kills
or [saving/already used combi's]
melta/plas (6) - 1.7 kills
bolts (16) - 1.8 kills

1 serpent team
scatter (4) - 0.83
avengers (30) - 3.3

So even against a combat team of marines in a woods, you'll need at least a third razorback team.
This is my problem with MSU (other then people acting like KP's shouldn't be part of the game, because of this); you talk about them being good because they can split their fire and hit lots of different targets. On average though, you have to combine many squads fire into a single target to do anything worth while.

[DarkLink]

Orks are plenty competitive. I've consistantly seen ork players in the top finishers at the tournaments I've gone to, right alongside SW, IG, GKs and the other 'top teir' lists. And, yes, there is a sort of universal meta, though you'll only see it at tournaments big enough to draw a very wide variety of players. Locally you're not likely to have a quality player for every type of competitive build, so you don't have to worry about orks if no one plays them for example.

And again, I'm not saying the wave serpents full of dire avengers are bad. Nor am I saying that they compare poorly in a vaccum one on one against razorspam units, though I will point out that your wave serpent and DA combo are almost pure anti-infantry whereas the razorspam units can kill anything from Land Raiders to Terminators to GEQ.

What I'm saying is that this is a pointless comparison. We could try comparing Fire Dragons to Land Raiders and see which is a better deal there, but two different units that fill two different roles from two different codices with two different sets of supporting units to cover their weaknesses leads us to the same circular arguing.




Incidentally, your last argument, that you have to combine firepower from multiple units, is in no way a disadvantage. In fact, that is exactly how MSU lists gain their shooting advantage. You are operating at almost 100% shooting efficiency, and you have a higher density of 'power' weapons than you would otherwise. You can fit more plasma/melta/lascannon/missile launcher shots into a Marine list going MSU, and you can utilize those shots much more efficiently than you would otherwise. That gives MSU a quantifiable advantage over non-MSU lists, assuming your codex does MSU well (which mostly limits MSU to SW, BA, DE, and GK). All you've done is demonstrate that spamming low quality shooting is better at killing Marines hiding in cover than using expensive heavy weapons to do that. Your example leaves out the fact that those heavy weapons are much, much better at killing certain other things like monstrous creatures, enemy vehicles and nasty units like Paladins. You're cherry-picking an example that favors the one thing that your combo does better than MSU (anti-infantry), when that isn't even the role of razorspam units. As I mentioned above, you're trying to compare two different units that do two different things and have two different sets of supporting units to cover their weaknesses.


I'll also point out that I'm not claiming that MSU is the best type of competitive list out there. It does, however, consistently do well in tournament settings. Space Wolf and Blood Angel MSU armies are quite potent, as are GK armies (though I feel that GKs do better going a different route). I'm not a fan of full MSU DE armies, their units are too fragile to pull it off, though Trueborn in Venoms certainly aren't a bad thing.