Why the Dark Eldar can build and deploy 'superheavies'.

[eldargal]

I posted this over on Warseer, decided to post it here too.

I am getting quite irritated at people perpetuating the erroneous idea that larger 'superheavy' vehicles are atithetical to the Dark Eldar background and playstyle. Here is precisely why it is wrong.

Dark Eldar Designer Round Table - Miniatures. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d9ed6okRXo) From 6:40 to 6:50 or thereabouts Jes Goodwin says:

..this overall feel of a cloud of stuff all the way from these ones (indicates raiders, Ravagers etc) and actually even though you know even though we've not made models of these we envisage the fact that somewhere above this you'd have raiders or slave barges that are this size (indicates a shape approximately 2-2.5ft long and 1ft tall).

So the father of the Eldar and the author of both Codex: Eldar and Codex: Dark Eldar envisage them having enormous, 'superheavy' vehicles floating about. You can't really argue with that. Then factor in the BFG ships which are vastly larger than anything in 40k scale and we know they build and utilise vessals far larger than anything you will see on the 40k tabletop. If you look carefully at the backdrop to the video you will see a large scale DE ship as well, it and others also appear on boxart like this (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1420352a_99120112011_DERavagerXBox1_873x627.jpg).

The second point that was brought up in the news and rumours section (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320357) recently was that it didn't make sense for the Dark Eldar to have larger vehicles because they couldn't deploy them through the webway because the portals were too small.

The only source cited for this was p13 of the current Codex: Eldar (the one written by Phil Kelly, one of the chaps whoenvisages large DE flyers) where it says that spacecraft are limited to the larger, arterial passages and that most passages are limited to 'strike forces' of infantry and 'small vehicles'. Now this is in a book about Craftworld Eldar who deploy things ranging in size from Vypers to Scorpions, Vampire Raiders and Phantom Titans.

But somehow we are expected to believe the Dark Eldar, who inhabit the largest webway port node with more links accross the galaxy spanning Eldar Empire than any other are going to have trouble deploying anything larger than a void raven. It is nonsense,

Page 8 of the DE codex; 'Some of these gateways into realspace are small and dim, but the arterial portals above the largest city-states blaze with ethereal light. Each can accomodate a pirate fleet with ease...
...Commoragh was originally the greatest of the webway port-cities, able to transport a fleet to any of the most vital planets of the Eldar Empire.
Page 13; Vect transports a Space Marine strike cruiser to Commoragh.
Page 14; A portal large enough to allow transit to two dozen SM strike cruisers is opened above the city.
Returning to the C:E quote, 'small vehicles' means just that, small vehicles. It is merely an assumption that this refers simply to the 'smallest' vehicles, especially since the Eldar are known to deploy much larger craft than anything in the DE codex at present. No one argues that these are antithetical to Craftworld Eldar, yet for some reason the same can't be said of the race occupying the largest webway port city in existence.

It seems obvious to all but the most blinkered and stubborn mind that the Dark Eldar have the capacity to both construct and deploy large (in the 40k sense) vessals and deploy them throughout the galaxy using the Webway. Not only that the author of their current rulebook and the man who invented them both 'envisage' them doing just that so it is quite clearly intended to be a facet of the race, albeit one that is beyond the GW scope of scale (but not beyond Forge Worlds).

I imagine the confusion comes from words like 'titan' and 'superheavy'. The Dark Eldar do not use walkers, so titans in the Craftworld sense would be unfitting but superheavy is a misleading term. Taken literally nothing about the Dark Eldar is superheavy, one imagines even their largest vessals would be constructed of lightweight materials and have anti-grav engines like the raiders. But that is not to say they needn't be large. We know the Dark Eldar assault entire worlds in their largest raids and carry away millions or more at a time, there is simply no way they could do this using only raiders.

So there you have it, precisely why I think it is quite clear that the Dark Eldar are intended to utilise large vessals and the idea that they can't deploy them due to webway constraints is simply unfounded.

Comments, constructive criticism and whatnot welcome.

[Etra]

I watched the youtube clip, and totally, you've got a point - the Dark Eldar could have superheavies.

But because they could have a something doesn't mean they'll have those somethings in any meaningful quantity - would a Dark Eldar pirate fleet you envision be a match for an Imperial crusade fleet?

Or a Tau patrol?

Or an Ork Rok?

What other races do as a manner of routine, the feeling is that would be the exception for the Dark Eldar. That while they could have superheavies, and I'll concede probably do, it wouldn't be common practice for them. The philosophy and play-style of the race is to be nimble and agile - not hulking and and sun-blocking. It wouldn't make sense for a race of pirates to zip around in massive ships that can't make a speedy getaway.

The Imperium has superheavies, in laughable abundance. That's what they do. I think that's the point critics are making when they express objections to Dark Eldar having superheavies - it's not that DE can't have them, just that they wouldn't have them, or they wouldn't have enough of them to include in the army lists.

*** *** *** *** *** ***

I mostly talked about spaceships, but let's talk about ground units:

How many Stormblade superheavy tanks do you think the Imperium has? Now by what factor would just the Stormblades alone completely dwarf a Dark Eldar counterpart? The DE could have massive ground vehicles - but would they?

Would the DE even show up for a fight if Tau were floating Manta's around, or if the Orks had a Gargant stomping about?

[eldargal]

I can't help thinking you didn't read the post, as most of your points are addressed in it.

See this is exactly what I'm talking about, no one is saying the Dark Eldar would have lumbering, clunky machines. But they do have large scale ships that are every bit as fast as their smaller ships. Read the bit where I talk about the problems with the term 'superheavy' please.

The Dark Eldar crippled the Imperium naval base at Bakka, the base for an entire SEGMENTUM ie one quarter of the Imperium (p129 of the BRB). Eldar pirates captured an IG troop ship with five million Guard on board (p127) and the DE codex has them capturing a SM strike cruiser and stripping an entire Tau world of its population.

As to stormblades, how isthat relevent? The Imperium can't deploy them all in one place, they don't know where the Dark Eldar will strike next and the Dark Eldar have been knownto divert Waaghs and tyranid hive fleet tendrils to worlds they want to attack but deem too heavily defended.

[Etra]

Because it's not in their character. The flavor of the race is defined in the hedonism of the individual - this contradicts the concept of thousands if not tens of thousands of DE working in tandem to achieve a goal as abstract as fleet maintenance.

No doubt, the Dark Eldar have committed incredible feats of daring that betray their true strength. That being said, how of this is planning and how much of it is luck?

How easy would it be to cripple an Imperium naval base if you have complete surprise and the weapons to do it with? I can't help but compare that with the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, where it was basically a perfect storm brewing against the Americans.

The same goes with capturing a troop ship, regardless of the number of personnel on board. Hell, with the way the books go about describing how perilous warp travel can be, how it's more luck than science, it sounds like isolating a troop ship from it's escorts would be cake, and taking over the bridge being a simple matter of working up the will to do it. If they don't see you coming... the tabletop game will teach you how vital going first can be.

The same goes for the Agri world. If the Dark Eldar are a predator waiting in shadows, then certainly they're going to do something nasty. But bandying about those accomplishments like those are standard goals the Dark Eldar can achieve at any old time misrepresents the truth - that those were the exceptional acts of an ambush predator against an unsuspecting victim.

I bring up the IG superheavies to make a point of scale: whereas a Dark Eldar showing of force is an occasion, the IG performing the same action (in the lore) is as common as Tuesday. You say the IG would never be able to put all their eggs in one basket, but presume the DE can.

You're right, the IG don't know where the DE will strike. And that uncertainty is the DE's greatest weapon. The DE don't need world-ending starcruisers or earth-churning leviathans when all they've ever needed is the element of surprise.

[eldargal]

Dark Eldar wouldn't be maintaing the fleets, that is what slaves are for. It is slaves who build the things in the first place, no Dark Eldar would be bothered with that sort of thing.

See now you are getting desperate, the Dark Eldar have a history of launching daring attacks against unsuspecting targets, fortified or otherwise, you can't just dismiss it as luck. Of course there is an element of luck, but planning, skill and technological superiority play a big factor.

You also can't just dismiss every major attack against the Imperium by DE as being exceptional, you have no basis to make that judgement. I could equally argue that every mentioned Space Marine victory is the exception. We hear about them because they happen, simple as that. They are illustrative, not exceptional.

And once again, they have ships that dwarf anything we see on the 40k tabletop in BFG, so why do people thinkg some giant slave barge is too much? It is absurd.

Yet again you assume I'm talking about huge starcruisers or superweapons, read the first post. We are talking about large scale raiders and slave barges, not enormous capital ships or cumbersome tanks and titans.

[Etra]

The complex activities involved in fleet maintenance (much less fleet operation) in addition to the enormous resources required (a lot of mouths to feed, and that's just people) make a slave-based operation impractical. It's more than chaining a man to a peg and forcing him to shovel coal, it requires knowledge and training that a standard person wouldn't have. Unless the DE slaves are adepts of the Mechanicus, their ships aren't going anywhere...

...which is why they wouldn't have the massive ships I outlined, or the larger-than-normal ships you desire. What - they're too preoccupied to do the work, but not so preoccupied as to watch slaves toil about their drudgery? Or how a slave will be too dumb to know quite what they're doing, but not so dumb as to bring the house of cards crumbling down? Or sabotage their own prison?

If the Dark Eldar are so vigilant to prevent sabotage, then why don't they just do the work themselves? Similarly, if the slaves are so smart as to run the ship, then why don't they just run it into the ground? It's just impractical for the Dark Eldar to operate as their codex would describe, as it describes it. There are no Dark Eldar engineers or scientists? Yea, that's why the Somali pirates are out there in dinghies - you don't see them sinking Carrier groups because that is beyond their means. Not to say one of them can't blow a hole in the side of the USS Cole.

The Dark Eldar can give the Imperium a bloody nose - never anything more.

The basis of judgement I have in stating the Dark Eldar victories as flukes are as follows:

The Imperial Guard depicted in their millions holding their ground against the Ork Waaghs and Tyranid Hive Fleets the DE may send at them.
Space Marines numbering only a sparse few slaughtering hundreds or thousands of times their number. And they keep doing it, day in day out, year in year out, over and over.
The Constantinus Iconoclasm from the CSM codex (pg 18) is an amazing example of Space Marines burning out and just killing everyone. Have you ever heard of a Dark Eldar who was pushed too far and gave it up?

No. Because the Dark Eldar don't show up for work every day. But the Imperium does. Remember the movie Public Enemies, with Christian Bale and Johnny Depp? Recall the scene where the mob boss tells Depp his operations, how Depp stole ~$75,000 in a bank heist, but how these phones make that money in a day, and they keep making it every day.

That's the Dark Eldar in comparison to the Imperium.

When the Imperium shows up in force, the Dark Eldar step out of the way. There is no account of the DE standing their ground and fighting to the last man if they didn't have to. They don't do that. Instead, they wait for the juggernauts to pass and then strike the rear lines. They'll rack up an impressive K/D ratio and then extoll their own greatness - nevermind that their achievements are only so great because they avoided the real fights.

And if you're going to make the conscious decision to avoid the big fights, then what do you need big guns for?

[DrLove42]

I think any DE SH would be a flier, in the vein of a Manta.

I have four points for this, in favour of DE SH

1) DE Leaders are very emotionally unbalenced. They strike me as the type that would take a personal vendetta seriously. If a Imperial Leader snubbed them they'd want revenge. Now if that planet is heavily occupied they'd need something to break through. DE aren't stupid. They wouldn't attack a large complex with just raiders. They'd bring in the big guns.They could do a Lady Malys in the story and divert a Rok into the formation, or they might view using a lesser race as a cheat and do it themselves

2) The Tantalus. This is a huge vehicle, coming close to the size of a Baneblade. And yet its not "classed" as a Superheavy, just a regular transport. But is proof that bigger vehicles are possible

3) Eldar Superheavies. I'm under the imprssion that a lot of the Craftworld's super heavies were designed, or at least used or imagined before the fall. So it makes sense the DE have the same sort of knowledge. Yes they don't grow things out of Wraithbone, but they do know the designs. Also all the Eldar outcasts who contact both worlds have some slender access to them. And anything can be bought in the Black markets of Commaragh

4) The description of the Phantom Titan in th new IA Apoc book. its describes webway portals being stretched and opened wider when a Phantom is deployed. So it suggests the webways tunnels are not fixed, and can be manipulated to allow larger things through

[eldargal]

I agree, but add to that the possibiliy of giant coven constructs and mabe Wych cult controlled gargantuan creatures.:)

The webway portals being stretched to accomdate larger vehicles isn't new either, the 3rd ed Codex: Eldar talk about a small webway portal ableto be expanded from 13.5 metres to 40-50 metres though it is speculatiom by an Imperium scientist.

[Valkerie]

Another point in favor of superheavies is that it would be an enormous status symbol. 'Look how rich and powerful I am, I can afford a superheavy.' Granted, they might not use them very often, not wanting to risk that big an investment, but I imagine that any Kabal or Coven that is or wants to be taken as a major power would have a few around. In fact, it might be seen as proof that you've reached the big leagues. :)

[Etra]

I wrote a great response to Eldargal and it said a moderator had to approve it first. It's been two days and my post hasn't appeared - what's the story with that?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Commoragh's a pretty huge place, lots of resources etc., and plenty of madmen in control of it all - big murder-machines are kind of a given!

Gameplay-wise, most of the Eldar super-heavies would probably work out for them - it's pretty easy to argue that the Eldar flyers/titans are pre-fall designs (plus, a Dark Eldar Phantom would look awesome).

That and Tyranid Super-heavies/Squiggoths to represent the greatest exploits of the Haemonculi and Beastmasters.

[eldargal]

Well, Craftworld Eldar vehicles are made of wraithbone so they wouldn't work too well, and the implication from the DE codex is their vehicles are closer to pre-fall vehicles.

[GrenAcid]

@up
TBH I dont have more to say other than: "You are right!"



I wrote a great response to Eldargal and it said a moderator had to approve it first. It's been two days and my post hasn't appeared - what's the story with that?
Maybe cuz its rubbish?

[eldargal]

One thing to remember is that pre-Fall the Eldar were so advanced that as far as we know they didn't need a conventional military. Why bother when if a race attacks you you can turn their suns on and off like lightbulbs? After the fall the DE began convrting pleasure yachts and whatnot into Raiders and Ravagers to help them raid for souls and the Craftworld began either designing new vehicles to fit with their Path system or refitting existing vehicles as well, we don't know. But given that the raider is explicitly stated to be 'like the gliding pleasure boats of the ancient Eldar' and as far as I recall no Craftworld are given a history like that, I think it is safe to assume that the Craftworld vehicles were relatively new designs or post-Fall designs.

[Freefall945]

I'm largely with Eldargal on this one. Notable points for and against that I have gleaned from your posts:



Against Dark Eldar Super Heavies:

a) The webway portal debarcle, or the “Super Heavy Ship in a Bottle”.

b) The comparitive -rarity- of such vehicles making them a non-issue for table-top affairs.

c) The 'minor' threat of the Dark Eldar meaning a tactical prohibition on such items.


For Dark Eldar Super Heavies:

a) Jes Goodwyn, and by extension Games Workshop, says “Why not?”

b) Ancestral Connection to the Eldar, who -do- deploy super heavies.

c) A lack of cogent points in the previous category to prohibit such things.

Expanded in turn...

Against:

a) Webway Access, Ship in a Bottle:

Eldargal has threshed this point sufficiently well to require little extra clarity. There is only one thing that fluff deems as “too large” to go through the webway in optimal conditions, and that is a Craftworld. The Eldar rely on keeping their Craftworld's exact locales obscure and undesirable to protect them (also deadly eldar to protect them. >.>) As far as we can tell, things Craftworld and up can not be Web-wayed. That's all. Large vehicles should pretty much be a cinch.

b) Comparitive Rarity, Exception Not the Rule.

Well, we're not really told how many Dark Eldar there are. We expect them to be “few” compared to Orks or Humans but we have no right to fix numbers where there are no blanks provided. In 3rd/4th Ed, it seemed the “harassing pirate” angle was played up more than it is presently when the designers of the present codex rightly decided “why would anyone want to play a race in the 41st millenium that can not have any measurable impact on events?” and broadened the fluff to include the jaw-dropping daring as referenced by Eldargal up there. Dark Eldar, and by extension and weapons they have to offer, are great enough in quantity to be considered a galactic menace, not a piracy foot-note.

As a side note, any credibility to the Rarity argument was washed away by psycannon rounds recently enough. The fact that there are, like, a thousand grey knights, constituting a tiny blip in a very specialized arena of the Imperial juggernaught, was important to keep in mind back in Codex: Daemonhunters. Now, the Games Workshop fluff-dispensers give us a much more laid back “Meh” when broached with that suggestion, leading to the understanding that the rarity of something in the vast scale of the 41st millennium should not prevent you from having fun by playing it. Ultimately, vast universe, laughter of thirsting gods, you will not be missed et al applies to all of us.

c) The Minor Threat, Light Skimmers or Bust.

Related to the previous point, the idea that the Dark Eldar represent a small threat which could not benefit tactically from having super-heavies because of its hit-and-run existence also falters at point of numbers, and the codex transition.

What is prohibited by Dark Eldar tactics, specifically, is-tanks- which are not the same as Super-heavies. Eldar Tanks are expected to be both hit-and-run vehicles, and to be able to withstand moderate punishment in a protracted engagement. Dark Eldar do not enter protracted engagements. There is nothing on this side of the Webway they would want to protect so dearly that they would risk their lives for it in a vehicle that was designed with the expectation of -actually being hit-. Dark Eldar tactics do not suggest, “do not fly around in large vehicles”, but rather “do not get hit, we are not good at it”.

All this means is that a Dark Eldar superheavy would be designed with the philosophy of untouchability in mind. The question becomes... Is that possible?

For:

a) Why Not?

Why not indeed, Jes? Anyone with even an ounce of creativity can imagine a Dark Eldar vehicle the size of a super-heavy which is not just a fat, armour-plated blade-tank. The fact that...

b) Eldar Super-heavies...

...exist suggests capability to operate in the super-heavy medium, but it would be important that they were specifically Dark Eldar, and not just Dark Scorpions or Dark Phantom Titans.

c) The lack of cogent arguments...

Is a fancy way of saying “Why not?” again.


I must stress again that an acceptable offering of a Dark Eldar super-heavy would have to be something special. Dark Eldar suffer from an aesthetic overlap – they are sleek and alien like the Craftworld Eldar, but dangerous and evil to behold, like Chaos.

The prevalence of blades in their silhouette combats both these things. It mark them as different from the Eldar by their -violence- and cruelty, but separates them from Chaos more implicitly.

The Chaos silhouettes feature spikes, not blades, and while this may seem like a superficial difference, the truth is the difference can not be overstated.

Spikes suggest thuggery. Brutality. They suggest a slamming, gut-peircing impact. Incidental trauma. Bodies speared on the spikes jutting from a chaos Rhino and left to hang there, just because they got in the way. Ruthlessness. Fiendish indifference to suffering. Collateral damage.

Blades, by contrast, suggest wickedness. Sadism. They imply rapid, non-fatal strikes. Deliberate laceration. Warriors sliced and ruined long before they are executed – if at all. Intention. Malevolent investment in suffering. Murder.

A spike is rammed into the target over and over with the greatest force for maximum damage. A blade requires movement, calculated precision, and patience.


Huh. Sorry if that got a little -weird- there. My mind kind of ran away with me. :)

[DrLove42]

Nicely expanded argument

I make my point agaisnt your "rarity" point though. The Phantom Titan is rare. The wraithseer, according to its fluff, has only a few working and are mostly lost and buried. The Phoneix lords only turn up for the largest of battles.

The DE are actually very numerous. Between slaves, cloned warriors and the fact that the Hemonculus can almost prevent perma-death they have very large numbers.

And yes on the imperium point - theres only 20-30 Purifiers in the entire galaxy and yet they always all seem to turn up for little battles



And as for untouchable non-tanks approach. I imagine DE superheavies would be Superheavy Fliers.

[lattd]

I would see Dark Eldar super heavies as either fighter/bombers, a barge with a super shadowfield or whatever bits Urien and his pals decided to chuck together and give life, sorta like a hell pit abomination from scaven with more guns and more anger.

[eldargal]

Yep, rarity isn't a problem, otherwise we wouldn't have SCs who are more than rare, being unique.:) Infact the codex also has a unique vehicle, the Dias of Destruction.

Personally I see two likely types of DE superheavy and one less likely:

Large fliers.
Coven constructs.
Large wych cult beasts. <--less likely but plausible, we know they like to capture big critters.

Nothing with legs, not even coven constructs, the talos and cronos float afterall.

[DrLove42]

Nothing with legs, not even coven constructs, the talos and cronos float afterall.

Super Grotesque! The result of 100 space marines sown together!

And not in a human-centipede kinda way :eek:

[eldargal]

Personally I think anything larger than a talos should float like a talos.:)

Some examples I threw together, obviously I'm not advocating these exactly as is some bits may be over/underpowered and I've no idea what appropriate costs would be, but they are just examples of what I envisage for them:


'large raider'
AV 12/12/10, Supersonic, Flyer, Hover, Open Topped.
2 Structure points
3 Heavy 3 Dark Lances
Transport Capacity 24.

Raider upgrades with appropriate costs.

'slave barge'
AV 12/12/10, Supersonic, Flyer, Hover.
3 Structure points
6 Splinter Cannons
Transport Capacity 30

Special ability:
Slave run: One enemy unit passed over by the slave barge in its movement phase suffers 2D6 S7 AP4 attacks.

Special equipment: Grapples: Allows two units to be targetted with slave run.

Raider options with appropriate costs.

etc.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Huh, I'd always assumed that Craftworld Eldar equipment was pretty representative of pre-fall eldar military (since Craftworlds are wraithbone vehicles, in a sense, and were made in the fall-era), while the Dark Eldar switched to the stuff they have now due to losing psychic capability (therefore Wraithbone) and being kind of insane (who needs a well armoured/shielded Falcon when you can rocket around in a paper-thin raider?) Don't have anything that concrete to back it up, though.


Well, Craftworld Eldar vehicles are made of wraithbone so they wouldn't work too well, and the implication from the DE codex is their vehicles are closer to pre-fall vehicles.
Iwasn't quite going for "they have exactly the same super-heavies", but that they may have super-heavies of similar build/armament made out've the technology used by the Deldar.

Since both factions have access to similar weaponry (Lance, haywire and plasma tech), it seems plausible that there was some form of pre-fall military lying around - it doesn't seem incredibly sensible that the Imperium has standing armies, since they access to pinpoint orbital bombardment and such. Seems to be one of the fun conceits of the setting.

[eldargal]

Well yes in terms of materials wraithbone would closer to pre-fall materials, but in terms of designs it seems the Craftworlds underwent considerable periods of change. Funnily enough the Dark Eldar are much more 'conservative than the Craftworlders, it is they who hold onto the vision of pre-Fall Eldar civilization even if they're powers are much less than pre-Fall Eldar.

[Anggul]

"the Dark eldar consider the Voidraven to be the ultimate in heavy weapons deployment"



Yes they have bigger things, but that doesn't mean they're for combat. As our main man said, slave barges and such. No doubt they have weapons systems, but I don't think they'd be used for the Dark Eldar lightning warfare.

[Freefall945]

A fine quote, but that simply means that the Dark Eldar do not see any better way to deploy gunboats. It is entirely possible, you might say, that the voidraven is superior to the superheavy hypothetical gunship I am prepared to call the Hellshrike because it is smaller, zippier, and better at bringing its array to bear.

[eldargal]

Freefall is right, all that quote could refer to is the fact that the void raven is the preferred choice for deploying void lances, the heaviest armaments we know the Dark Eldar to possess. It is a considerable leap to say there are no larger combat craft than that.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Well yes in terms of materials wraithbone would closer to pre-fall materials, but in terms of designs it seems the Craftworlds underwent considerable periods of change. Funnily enough the Dark Eldar are much more 'conservative than the Craftworlders, it is they who hold onto the vision of pre-Fall Eldar civilization even if they're powers are much less than pre-Fall Eldar.
Are there any sources on the craftworlds' level of change? (Genuinely curious, not familiar with their fluff beyond their codicies/Imp. Armours.)

The Deldar always struck me as the more "inventive" of the two, since their main transport is derived from non-military designs (my previous assumption was that Falcons were a standard military transport pre-fall, which the deldar could no longer maintain/build.) It seems reasonably clear that the basic tech for Vypers/Venoms and many of the aircraft is sourced from pre-fall stuff, though, since they're a common factor between both factions.

And yeah, agreed that the Voidraven isn't necessarily the biggest, just the favorite. Having 5 Voidravens over 1 bigthing would be preferable, similar to how 5 Stormravens are better than 1 Thunderhawk. Doesn't mean that the big thing wouldn't have its uses, though.

One thought - perhaps the deldar superheavies might incorporate the advanced armourplating/forceshields currently seen only in the Dias of Destruction. Maybe the huge raider would be an AV13 non-fast skimmer, contrasting to the fragile speedster craft zipping around it.

[Archon Charybdis]

Personally I think anything larger than a talos should float like a talos.:)

I largely agree, though I have to admit I've often considered getting a Brass Scorpion to make an "Erebus Torture Engine." The first time I saw it I thought: "Khorne my ***, that's clearly a DE super heavy." Sleek? Agile-looking? Semi-organic? Tortured slaves plugged in the back to power it? Checks all around.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/BRASS-SCORPION.html

[eldargal]

Well it is complicated. Much of the Craftworld technology is post-Fall, Warp Spiders, Night Spinners and whatnot. And the entire Aspect system. Whereas the Dark Eldar are completely wedded to the idea of maintaining pre-Fall Eldar culture despite it causing the Fall. They do share some common vehicles, as you say, but it is interesting how much moredifferent they are to the Craftworld vehicles than the Dark Eldar.


Are there any sources on the craftworlds' level of change? (Genuinely curious, not familiar with their fluff beyond their codicies/Imp. Armours.)

The Deldar always struck me as the more "inventive" of the two, since their main transport is derived from non-military designs (my previous assumption was that Falcons were a standard military transport pre-fall, which the deldar could no longer maintain/build.) It seems reasonably clear that the basic tech for Vypers/Venoms and many of the aircraft is sourced from pre-fall stuff, though, since they're a common factor between both factions.

And yeah, agreed that the Voidraven isn't necessarily the biggest, just the favorite. Having 5 Voidravens over 1 bigthing would be preferable, similar to how 5 Stormravens are better than 1 Thunderhawk. Doesn't mean that the big thing wouldn't have its uses, though.

One thought - perhaps the deldar superheavies might incorporate the advanced armourplating/forceshields currently seen only in the Dias of Destruction. Maybe the huge raider would be an AV13 non-fast skimmer, contrasting to the fragile speedster craft zipping around it.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I definitly agree with "superheavy" sized Haemonculi constructs. Bigger than the Talos and Chronos. Haemonculi are pretty individualistic so I wouldnt say it is -impossible-. Plenty of potential for some truly sick design and imagery there.

Giant slave-barges were mentioned too - this could be a very fitting and nightmarish vessel if realised - imagine if it was done like a giant floating concentration camp that looked like it was built by Pinhead? the death-screams would be enough to make the most hardened space marine cry I think.

[Old_Paladin]

Isn't this a moot argument? Seeing as the Dark Eldar already deploy superheavy flyers.
VOID-DRAGON-PHOENIX (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/VOID-DRAGON-PHOENIX.html)

Well... I guess its more that Eldar Corsairs deploy super-heavies; and the Dark Eldar just 'rent' them as needed.


I don't see why this concept bothers some people. The Dark Eldar use starships; why wouldn't they deploy giant death/torture machines?
If you have to suck up 5+ billion souls from an Imperial Hive City; at some point after hunting through the streets for the fun of the chase, it'd just be easier to bring in a 100 foot long version of the Chronos and finish everything off.

[Archon Charybdis]

The VDP is not a super heavy, it just packs a crap-ton of firepower.

[Old_Paladin]

Oops, my mistake.
I was thinking of the Vampire (all those eldar aircraft look the same to me).

[Wildeybeast]

Well it is complicated. Much of the Craftworld technology is post-Fall, Warp Spiders, Night Spinners and whatnot. And the entire Aspect system. Whereas the Dark Eldar are completely wedded to the idea of maintaining pre-Fall Eldar culture despite it causing the Fall. They do share some common vehicles, as you say, but it is interesting how much moredifferent they are to the Craftworld vehicles than the Dark Eldar.

So do the DE have Titans? I would have thought they would have chosen not to use them, given that the Craftworlders would normally deploy them in protracted battles where they need to bring massive firepower to bear and that sort of warfare is anathema to DE, but do they actually have any?

[eldargal]

Personally I doubt it, having a walker however large and lithe doesn't really fit with the DE given that every vehicle they have floats in some fashion.

[Thornblood]

Titan wise - could there be a giant Talos-construct thingy??? Maybe one made out of a Tyranid Bio-Titan??

Fauna in 40k go as big as Void whales. We could have a Haemonculous experiment or a Wych beast that was big- maybe only as big as the FW Greater Daemons and avatar though. Or to start with...

Also, as we know the Dark Eldar are Pirates and capture ships (such as the aforementioned Space Marine Strike Cruiser), they could capture vehicles that don't require too many crew to be hard wired or spiritually attuned to the craft. Would they then use them in battle??? We are headed towards a more sophisticaed and depraved orky looted vehicle concept here though.

The super heavy three sailed giant raider thingy on the box art looks awesome. It also looks more heaviloy armoured and like it mounts a turret on the forecastle.

[DrLove42]

Also, as we know the Dark Eldar are Pirates and capture ships (such as the aforementioned Space Marine Strike Cruiser), they could capture vehicles that don't require too many crew to be hard wired or spiritually attuned to the craft. Would they then use them in battle??? We are headed towards a more sophisticaed and depraved orky looted vehicle concept here though.

.

I don't see DE looting vehicles. Slaves maybe. But the technology no. The greatest tech in the Imperium is a childs toy to the DE. Its very beneath them

[Thornblood]

Thats why I asked. I think your right, I cant see them using them in battle. What do you think they do with looted superheavies? Inhabitanting them has just as much detest to it as using them in battle.

However I am thinking bomb ships and lures- using distress beacons to lure Imperial forces to the crippled craft and then out jump the deldar.

Where do they put them? Just a pocket dimension filled with giant trophies? Maybe left as breeding grounds for the races that inhabit them to supply cormorrogh with slaves?

[DrLove42]

Well unlike their craftworld brothers all DE weaponry is manufactured (by slaves) not grown. So they've got to get minerals and rescources from somewhere

I like the idea of a seperate area in the webway that is just a graveyard of ships from every race, floating silently in the cold.

2 things to consider though

a) The Rise of Vect story talks about them fighting over salvage rights to the Space Marine cruiser. So amy be they do strip parts?

b) After leaving a ship in Commaragh and ending up getting Marinified i'd imagine there a bit more careful about distress beacons and the like now

[Anggul]

Freefall is right, all that quote could refer to is the fact that the void raven is the preferred choice for deploying void lances, the heaviest armaments we know the Dark Eldar to possess. It is a considerable leap to say there are no larger combat craft than that.

Without meaning to sound childish, I think you're just clutching at straws.

I have no doubt they have heavier firepower, but said firepower would most likely be their spacecraft. A slave barge is hardly a battle-ship, even though it would inevitably be armed. Yes they'd have bigger craft, but primarily for transport of captives after battle, anything else would be too big a target for them I think.

[Multigeneral]

Wow. All this talk about DE superheavies has me imagining a massive anti-grav barge (think the QE II of pain and suffering) cruising about an imperial planet as the slightly faster Raiders zip up, unload thier soon-to-be-slave cargo, and tear back into the fray for another run. It's massive aethersails signalling doom to the poor slobs not yet caught, as enemy fire patters harmlessly off its super night shields. Slaves are currency to the DE so it would no doubt be well armed to protect it from potential rescuers and other DE kabals! Not recreatable on a scale that would allow it to be used in game, but impressive none the less, and perfectly reasonable in my opinion.
I can also see massive, cobbled together floating monstrosities being used just for the shear amount of terror they would cause among the prey. Mmmmmm, terrory goodness......like cupcakes made with tears.

[eldargal]

Not clutching at straws, just pointing out the language is open to interpretation. Nothing in the quote says outright they do not have larger combat vehicles, just that voidravens are the preferred choice.


Without meaning to sound childish, I think you're just clutching at straws.

I have no doubt they have heavier firepower, but said firepower would most likely be their spacecraft. A slave barge is hardly a battle-ship, even though it would inevitably be armed. Yes they'd have bigger craft, but primarily for transport of captives after battle, anything else would be too big a target for them I think.

[Thornblood]

Anggul, you cant deny the Deldar superheavy in the background of the Ravager box.

[DrLove42]

Anggul, you cant deny the Deldar superheavy in the background of the Ravager box.

Never noticed that before. At first glance it looks like 3 raiders on top of each other, but the sails give it away

Its a pretty ugly thing though :P

[Thornblood]

If Forgewordl played with the design it would look amazing, because, I have that much faith in Forgeworld's amazing aesthetics and design doodles.

It is basically I giant Raider. Which means the shape changes slightly because of the handrails don't have to be so big and therefore don't take up such a big part of the silhouette. Big cannon turret thingy on the forecastle though. Its a concept, its not developed yet (it may never be).

I think its a small spaceship on the Hellions box. However as the Tau Manta has provoked; where does a superheavy start becoming a battleship? (Its probably before the Hellion thing).

We could have some nice evolution from raider into ship as the superheavies get bigger.

I still want to see a FW Avatar/Greater Daemon sized Talos.

[DrLove42]

Said it more than once, but just gonna say it again

http://http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091202162510/starwars/images/thumb/d/d4/Sailbarge-chron2.jpg/685px-Sailbarge-chron2.jpg

[eldargal]

I think the thing on the Hellion box is without doubt a space ship, it seems to be further back than the buildings and yet it is larger than them. It must be huge.

[Valkerie]

I like the idea of pocket dimensions full of large trophies!:D In fact, I would imagine that the bigger and more powerful Kabals , (such as Vect's), each have their own dimension full of captured vehicles. I see it as a very impressive status symbol for the Kabal. For instance, having a captured Emperor Titan (hung about with Imperial corpses, of course) absolutely shouts "We are powerful and bad ***! Don't mess with us!"