Specialist Games and Why Dreadfleet Matters

[wittdooley]

I wrote up a little opinion piece of my thoughts on why the production of Dreadfleet--not the game itself--matters to both GW and to us hobbyists:

Why Dreadfleet Matters (http://wp.me/p1Cyjr-7p)

Would love some other opinions on the matter. Enjoy!

[Lord Azaghul]

So I should buy the product just because its NOT part of the main 3 lines of there product?

Did I miss something there wittdooley?

I've seen the sprues sure they are detailed, but the product doesn't interest me...I've already found a great naval game.

I'm not arguing that this released pushes something else back - I'm indifferent to that...but...

What does interest me is GW developing 'in game' balance in their major systems, and that's the one thing I'm NOT seeing from them.

[DrLove42]

Good article.

I hope for BB next year as an anniversary thing, then maybe Gothic,

But games like Gothic, Epic and Necromunda are likely to be ehavily redone, if not done at all. Theres a difference in having a entirely enclosed boxed game, and a specialist game where you buy other armies for.

It like Man O War to Dreadfleet. Rather than having lots of races, its unified fleet of "characters" with 2 distinct sides. I don't see a fleet of Eldar, Tau and the Imperium in a box vs a Ork, Nid & Chaos force

[wittdooley]

I don't think you need to buy it at all. I meant support in the loosest sense: vocal support, really. We all know that GW has people looking online at gauging the reactions to their products. All companies do.

My argument was more that the release of Dreadfleet bodes well for OTHER products you may be more interested in and that those will most assuredly be of high quality.

Forget about the Dreadfleet "game" and consider how releasing it impacts those other points I made. That's all really.

FWIW, I own Uncharted Seas and Dystopian Wars fleets, and love both games.

Also: To play a full game of Uncharted Seas or Dystopian wars with terrain and a full army (lets say a starter fleet box) would cost nearly the same as Dreadfleet :)

[wittdooley]

Good article.

I hope for BB next year as an anniversary thing, then maybe Gothic,

But games like Gothic, Epic and Necromunda are likely to be ehavily redone, if not done at all. Theres a difference in having a entirely enclosed boxed game, and a specialist game where you buy other armies for.

It like Man O War to Dreadfleet. Rather than having lots of races, its unified fleet of "characters" with 2 distinct sides. I don't see a fleet of Eldar, Tau and the Imperium in a box vs a Ork, Nid & Chaos force

Oh yes. I think with a 25th Anniersary BB we'll see 4-6 teams in the box with lots of other non-essential goodies (bleachers, benches, a nice mat).

As for the others: I will pee just a little if GW ever releases an updated Adeptus Titanicus boxed set with Knight Titan lances.

[Lord Azaghul]

Forget about the Dreadfleet "game" and consider how releasing it impacts those other points I made. That's all really.

FWIW, I own Uncharted Seas and Dystopian Wars fleets, and love both games.

Also: To play a full game of Uncharted Seas or Dystopian wars with terrain and a full army (lets say a starter fleet box) would cost nearly the same as Dreadfleet :)

Ah thanks for the clarification.

Cost: sure its comparable, however I think the long term utility goes to spartan games.
I think the only thing that really caught my eye was the terrain in DF, and not all of it either - I'm getting a bit worn out on 'Skulls make of skulls to resemble and even larger skull in a sea of skulls'.
However some of the other island stuff in a separate sprue sale might be interesting...

[Psychosplodge]

I have the feeling that if they did revisit specialist games they'd butcher them.
Necromunda would become 40 models a side and without the complexity that gave it the RPG element, mordheim would go the same way. Gorkamorka would require a speedfreaks army and still play through quicker than before...

Or they could re-release the old rules without butchering them and support them properly.

Which is more likely?

[westside]

Personally I imagine corporate 'let' Kelly do Dreadfleet because they knew not many would really want it.
It was all just kinda of a set up (out of all the SG games Man O War was probably the lowest selling).
The designers probably start chomping at the bit, saying they'd like to do something different. They have a 'meeting' discuss ideas, corporate sets requirements (has to be 'fantasy'), then corporate picks the one they know will flounder (pun intended).
Why would I say such a thing?
Corporate makes statements in their reports to shareholders that they won't make products that compete with the 'core games'.
Corporate pretty much sabotaged all the Specialist Games by making them direct order only, can't play in stores, semi official policies, like 'can't mention the games', etc. When corporate (and the guys at Forgeworld) point out what low seller Specialist is, all I gotta say is, "wonder why? you stuck them the direct order twilight zone". If an Independent retailer can stock Spartan Games, I'm sure they would and could sell Specialist Games if they were allowed to.
After it takes Dreadfleet six months to sell out (sell out probably descreetly in a land fill) Corportate can refer to the 'Dreadfleet Debacle' for the next ten years anytime a designer brings up doing anything remotely not related to the core games.
Yes, I do believe head office was willing to blow some capital just so they could prove to staff how wise and savvy they are. It's not like they didn't do it before with Jervis and Fanatic (Specialist Games).

[westside]

Ah thanks for the clarification.

Cost: sure its comparable, however I think the long term utility goes to spartan games.
I think the only thing that really caught my eye was the terrain in DF, and not all of it either - I'm getting a bit worn out on 'Skulls make of skulls to resemble and even larger skull in a sea of skulls'.
However some of the other island stuff in a separate sprue sale might be interesting...

If your looking for 'long term utility' why not just play 'Star Fleet Battles' it's been around for about 35 years. Not a skull in sight, and certainly not a game that is just 'craps' with minatures.

[eldargal]

Don't be stupid, by that logic Space Hulk would have required forty terminators and one hundred genestealers to play.

I read recently from one of the former GW insiders on Warseer, blongbling I think, that the SGs were never intended for more long term support than they get now, the rules and models being available and nothing more. What we are seeing with Dreadfleet are new, limited edition SGs and if they are successful we will see more.


I have the feeling that if they did revisit specialist games they'd butcher them.
Necromunda would become 40 models a side and without the complexity that gave it the RPG element, mordheim would go the same way. Gorkamorka would require a speedfreaks army and still play through quicker than before...

Or they could re-release the old rules without butchering them and support them properly.

Which is more likely?

[Deadlift]

My problem with Dreadfleet was just the sheer amount of time and space given over to its "advertisement" I can understand why, but it got so much it actually put me off the the game. The copy I bought is staying in the cupboard for a year or two before hitting ebay.

Even the Dark Eldar over kill wasn't that bad in comparison

[eldargal]

There wasn't any Dark Eldar overkill. They had the first ever complete revamp of an armies entire range and they received a commensurate amount of attention.;) They are also widely regarded as the most beautiful models GW have ever produced, which also warrants attention.

[Psychosplodge]

Don't be stupid, by that logic Space Hulk would have required forty terminators and one hundred genestealers to play.

I read recently from one of the former GW insiders on Warseer, blongbling I think, that the SGs were never intended for more long term support than they get now, the rules and models being available and nothing more. What we are seeing with Dreadfleet are new, limited edition SGs and if they are successful we will see more.

Sorry maybe was too subtle, if you noticed I missed warhammer quest off because like space hulk is a complete game in a box.
Maybe I was exaggerating a bit but every edition of 40k seems to have points costs dropping so you need more models for the "standard" size game hence the idea following into the specialist range.
Up until they removed the boxsets from the shops there always seemed to be at least one article in WD supporting the specialist games. But I can remember when my local store stopped running "veteran" nights and effectively banned specialist models...

[Deadlift]

There wasn't any Dark Eldar overkill. They had the first ever complete revamp of an armies entire range and they received a commensurate amount of attention.;) They are also widely regarded as the most beautiful models GW have ever produced, which also warrants attention.

Of course there was Dark eldar over kill :) there was bloody weeks upon weeks of articles on the GW site that seemed to go on forever, however I will grant you it was an importent release and long over due (just not for me) But when Necrons hit I expect the same treatment and then Eldargirl you too can enjoy being bombarded with an army you have no interest in :p

as for your article Wittdooley well I think this sentence hit the nail on the head.

"You can think Dreadfleet is too expensive, or that it simply isn’t your thing. That’s fine. But seeing new products from GW that deviate from their core three product lines should be the focus, and THAT should garner your support"

Exactly, Im no fan of LOTR but I can appreciate the creative and financial impact it had at GW upon its first release and the beneficial knock on effect it had for all its games.

[eldargal]

It was like a week or two of articles. And it had non-DE stuff interspersed as well. I always have to put up with being bombarded with stuff about armies I don't care bout, we call them 'Space Marines'.:p

[Necron2.0]

If your looking for 'long term utility' why not just play 'Star Fleet Battles' it's been around for about 35 years. Not a skull in sight, and certainly not a game that is just 'craps' with minatures.

Boo-Yah!! Shout out for my (still) favorite game in the whole world! Been playing since it was a pocket game (like the original Car Wars). The problem with SFB, though, is the rules have been designed and written by mathematicians and engineers. They are absolute and definitive, with no ambiguity whatsoever, but they are the size of a phone book, and mostly all hard, crunchy rules. That's why it has morphed somewhat into Federation Commander.

As for Dread Fleet ... well, for me, the thing is I play a lot of games (have for years), and while for some people GW and its products may be their whole universe, for me it's an "also ran." There is a much wider world out there, and GW is not in the center of it.

The danger for GW is they have a plethora of specialist games, and they don't support them (at least this is what I understand from friends more into GW than me). For any business, expansion can be a good thing, but only if that expansion goes in ways attractive to the established customer base, or else it targets a known customer base not currently exploited (for lack of a better word) by the company. Otherwise, expansion is death, because it is expenditure with no return.

[westside]

The only GW games I play are Specialist, GW has been gone so long I think them sticking their noses back in would be unwelcome. I don't think anyone who plays Epic would really want their collections invalidated by some 15mm one off Box set. Just like the people that still play Man O War aren't thrilled with Dreadfleet.

Specialist Games doesn't have the profit margin GW wants from a product, Specialist Games doesn't have the sales because GW won't allow independant distrubution and relegated them to direct order.

Lets face it GW wouldn't actually be thrilled if you wanted to play a game in the 40k universe and you choose Epic instead of 40k$$$$$.
Dreadfleet is nice, I even bought the ebook, sounds fun, don't know if I will ever find the time to paint it up like it probably deserves, just not as interesting to me as Epic or Battle Fleet Gothic.

[wittdooley]

The only GW games I play are Specialist, GW has been gone so long I think them sticking their noses back in would be unwelcome. I don't think anyone who plays Epic would really want their collections invalidated by some 15mm one off Box set. Just like the people that still play Man O War aren't thrilled with Dreadfleet.
.

Oh you're just silly. People that aren't thrilled are no different at hipsters that claim their favorite indie band sold out because their albumn went platinum (see: Leon, Kings of). The Dreadfleet ships look so superior to the Man o War ships its a bit embarassing.

From my experience, people that only play Specialist Games pride themselves on their ability to come up with homebrew rules. If that were truly the case and it wasn't the sense of exclusivity that playing a specialist game provides, then they should be foaming at the mouth to home brew some rules for the Dreadfleet ships.

And when GW releases a one-off box of Adeptus Titanicus with tons of wonderfully detailed plastic Titans, I will gladly flaunt them in the faces of the people that play Epic (of which I am one) that don't want their 'colllections invaded.'

[westside]

Oh you're just silly. People that aren't thrilled are no different at hipsters that claim their favorite indie band sold out because their albumn went platinum (see: Leon, Kings of). The Dreadfleet ships look so superior to the Man o War ships its a bit embarassing.

From my experience, people that only play Specialist Games pride themselves on their ability to come up with homebrew rules. If that were truly the case and it wasn't the sense of exclusivity that playing a specialist game provides, then they should be foaming at the mouth to home brew some rules for the Dreadfleet ships.

And when GW releases a one-off box of Adeptus Titanicus with tons of wonderfully detailed plastic Titans, I will gladly flaunt them in the faces of the people that play Epic (of which I am one) that don't want their 'colllections invaded.'


If not wanting to be part of Codex creep, expensive 'must have to win a game model' of the month, GW heroic 28mm madness is just silly, guess that's me. (I don't really want to paint that many large figures with that much detail). Oh, and silly me, likes the 40K 'universe', but rather play a strategic war game instead of an 'over grown' skirmish games.

People are already selling Dreadfleet ships on Ebay for 'Man O War', and as you clearly pointed out, the Specialist Gamers will no doubt rely on themselves to create the rules for the ships. (they kinda got used to doing that, thanks for encouraging independence GW)

If GW actually ever releases a one off box of Adeptus Titanicus (don't hold your breath, GW will be quite busy with the Hobbit and pandering to Warner Brothers for the next four years) sure I and other Epic players will buy the game, and more likely than not use the Titans and scenery in Epic. If it's off scale, I probably will get it anyway, a Titan only game would be fun again, and yes if my gaming group doesn't like the rules we will change them.

As for Dreadfleet, it's nice, but for me and I think quite a few others it's not terribly exciting (to be fair GW Fantasy never really caught my imagination). I think I would look more favorably on Dreadfleet if such offerings weren't limited release and so sporadic.

As it stands, even though I really like alot of what GW has created I can't say I feel real supportive of their sporadic limited releases and direct order only distribution of Specialist Games. Silly me.

[westside]

Not silly because I prefer stable strategic wargames to 'over grown' skirmish games
Not thrilled about Dreadfleet because it's a sporatic limited release.
Nice minis, guess people are already buying them for Man O War on Ebay.
Word I used was 'invalidated' not 'invaded'. Nice shiny new models would always be appreciated, if they are the wrong scale, Meh, whatever.
And yes I would like Adeptus Titanicus, and yes I would probably make up my own rules.

[doom-kitten]

Why is there a Dreadfleet anyway? Wheres the models for the armies that have been long overdue? Why are they making a limited Edition game when they should be updating ranges so everyone can enjoy the bounty of the Dark Eldar. Yes the game will bring in money but so will the long awaited Tervigon and oh a plastic Hive Tyrant, while we're at it what about a covertable kit for the Cygor for the beastmen. While I'm ranting here, why did my army gat this piece of crap magazine codex when it could have had a real release with shiny new kits and fine cast imagine the money there. But no we get a boat game, yay that so exciting. Thank you GW for another game that has nothing to do with the countless projects you haven't even started yet. Sorry about the rant but thats what I typed and unless my computer freezes again thats what will be posted.