Iron Hands First Company

[foostoofoo]

So here I have an issue, I am slowly chipping away at my iron hands first company of 100 veterans in total.
So far I have about 50 termis and and now plan on moving onto the veterans without terminator armour, so I am a bit stuck on what to do with models, there are the vanguard squad (plan to buy 2 boxes), the sternguards (plan to buy 2 boxes) the mk 1 vets (plan to buy 2 boxes) and finally the mk 2 vets (plan to buy 2 boxes), so that would bring me up to 90 vets, now I don't want to buy any more termis or any of the boxes I just said (I wasn't keen on buying 2 of each box due to then having 2 of each model but with a bit of mixing and matching they will look cool :) ) so now my question is, what do I use for the last 10 vets, I toyed with the idea of dark angels vets, but they would'nt really fit in with the rest. So can any think of some nice looking models that could be converted or any other veteran lookin guys I could use? Thanks :D

[ThePov]

Well, you could always use the Red Scorpion Vets from Forge World to do a couple Squads in Pre-Heresy Armor. Since the Iron Hands are Pre-Heresy, it will likely look cool. Just a reminder, though, Iron Hands Vets would likely have a LOT of augmentation, and all the boxes you mention above are metal, which makes using the Iron Hand Marines upgrade stuff tough. Still, go for it! I love your commitment. I eventually want to put together a full company, but it's going to take me a WHILE at this rate...

[The AKH]

You could use the Iron Hands conversion pack to kit out the last 10 guys... unless of course you've already used bitz from it on all your other models! :P

[Vash113]

Well I dunno if you know, but the Iron Hands do not have a Veteran 1st Company.

The Iron Hands are organised into 10 Clan Companies, each an independant group with it's own recruitment, it's own Veterans and it's own mobile Fortress Monastery. There is no Chapter Master either, but a Clan Council with senior representatives from each Company that come together to make Chapter wide decisions.

Not to mention that the Iron Hands probably don't even have close to 50 suits of Terminator Armor after the complete loss of the Morlock's during the Dropsite Massacre in the Istvaan system. Those they do have are granted to senior officers and sergeants and rarely if ever consolidated into squads so as to spread the influence and inspiration of the glorious technology as widely as possible.

I guess if you don't mind the Chapter's fluff so much then you could finish a 1st Company project, but if you really want to build a fluffy Iron Hands list your best bet is probably the Space Wolves strangely enough.

[energongoodie]

Well I dunno if you know, but the Iron Hands do not have a Veteran 1st Company.

The Iron Hands are organised into 10 Clan Companies, each an independant group with it's own recruitment, it's own Veterans and it's own mobile Fortress Monastery. There is no Chapter Master either, but a Clan Council with senior representatives from each Company that come together to make Chapter wide decisions.

Not to mention that the Iron Hands probably don't even have close to 50 suits of Terminator Armor after the complete loss of the Morlock's during the Dropsite Massacre in the Istvaan system. Those they do have are granted to senior officers and sergeants and rarely if ever consolidated into squads so as to spread the influence and inspiration of the glorious technology as widely as possible.

I guess if you don't mind the Chapter's fluff so much then you could finish a 1st Company project, but if you really want to build a fluffy Iron Hands list your best bet is probably the Space Wolves strangely enough.

This fluff seems to have been over ruled.
There is a reference in the new space marine codex to the Chapter Master of the Iron hands. He is quoted as saying he longs for the day when all his chapter can ride to battle in Razorbacks, or words to that effect. I do not have the codex in front of me, sorry.
As for the terminators, I've never liked the idea that they haven't got many. As a First founding chapter I like to think they would have had loads, not just the ones the Morlocks were wearing.

I agree that the Space wolf codex seems to be a great basis for the Iron hands. When I want an assaulty army I shall bring my wolves. When I want tooled up troops and an awesome dreadnought, I'll bring my Iron Hands models.

[Fantomex]

This fluff seems to have been over ruled.
There is a reference in the new space marine codex to the Chapter Master of the Iron hands. He is quoted as saying he longs for the day when all his chapter can ride to battle in Razorbacks, or words to that effect. I do not have the codex in front of me, sorry.
As for the terminators, I've never liked the idea that they haven't got many. As a First founding chapter I like to think they would have had loads, not just the ones the Morlocks were wearing.

I agree that the Space wolf codex seems to be a great basis for the Iron hands. When I want an assaulty army I shall bring my wolves. When I want tooled up troops and an awesome dreadnought, I'll bring my Iron Hands models.
True, the new codex does mention a chapter master, but methinks that was just GW forgetting what they've already written..
As far as I'm concerned, the Iron Hands are large oversized clans, there are certainly more than 1000.
Plus, I'd argue against old fluff saying "only 8 dreadnoughts" and "barely any termies", I'd figure the SM best buddies to the Adeptus Mechanicus would get their hands on anything they wanted..

Foostoofoo, it's nice to see someone else who is as big into Iron Hands as me!
Obviously for veteran models you could do all sorts of posed wonderment, at the moment I'm converting Huron Blackheart into a Master of The Forge, might pop and get some help from a new dremel tomorrow with the arrival of a paycheque..
Have you considered cutting the Iron Hands bitz legs up into separate legs, using them with separated regular legs?
The gorgeous Iron Warriors Warsmith and the Iron Warriors bitz?
Guitar strings? Plastic rods?
Also, got any pix?
I'd love to see what you''ve come up with!:D

[foostoofoo]

Just another quick question, how many dreadnoughts are there in an average 1st company and thanks guys for the input about them not having a first company, I realised this after 25 termis and wasn't prepared to change by then :) Ive decided on another 10 vanguard models (but plan on changing the weapons and converting the models)

[Vash113]

This fluff seems to have been over ruled.
There is a reference in the new space marine codex to the Chapter Master of the Iron hands. He is quoted as saying he longs for the day when all his chapter can ride to battle in Razorbacks, or words to that effect. I do not have the codex in front of me, sorry.


Yes I know of the quote but are you seriously suggesting that one quote retcons the entire previous fluff of the Iron Hands including the Horus Heresy material, the book the Iron Hands and the Index Astartes article? I most certainly think not. Now if there was something more concrete, sure, but one quote means nothing. It could fluff wise be a case of misatribution. A scribe wrights down "Chapter Master" when the title is really Master of the Chapter in reference to the Master of the Arsenal, Master of the Fleet etc, and the Iron Hands may still hold such titles though probably with slightly different roles and proceedures than other Chapters. The map towards the front of the Codex is another good example, it puts one of the Chapters assigned to defend the Eye of Terror halfway across the galaxy...

So until there is something more concrete than a quote I'm going to put that one down to Mat Ward's oversight and/or ignorance. Besides even if you hold it as absolute that still only retcons the bit about no Chapter Master and even that could be limited, perhaps the Clan Council elects a figurehead Chapter Master every now and then in dire situations like the invasion of Medusa, we don't know, there could be dozens of explenations.



As for the terminators, I've never liked the idea that they haven't got many. As a First founding chapter I like to think they would have had loads, not just the ones the Morlocks were wearing.


Highly unlikely, even though the Iron Hands are a first founding Chapter and have good ties to the Mechanicus, Terminator Armor was in the prototype and field testing stages during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, no one Legion had that many suits and quite a few chose to give them all or the vast majority to their Veterans. Sure some may not have been used on Istvaan, but the vast majority would have been, and every single one would have been impossible to recover.

Plus the Iron Hands had two successors with which to divide their remaining armor up with and Terminator armor post Heresy is either incredibly slow or outright impossible to manufacture. Not to mention that while the Iron Hands have good ties to the Mechanicus they can't exactly demand replacements for those they lost on Istvaan. Sure they would have acquired some over the millenia but I find it ludicrous to think they would have managed to get more than a few dozen suits at the most given the rarity and demand, not to mention cassualty rates and the manner in which the Iron Hands use them.

Like it or not a limited number of Tactical Dreadnaught suits is part of the Iron Hands fluff, as is a maximum of 7 Dreadnaughts in the entire Chapter. Sucks to be them sometimes huh?


Just another quick question, how many dreadnoughts are there in an average 1st company and thanks guys for the input about them not having a first company, I realised this after 25 termis and wasn't prepared to change by then :) Ive decided on another 10 vanguard models (but plan on changing the weapons and converting the models)

Fair enough, as for the Dreads, well the Iron Hands only have 7 total but if your doing a 1st Company anyway I guess you could toss that out the window. But you could always convert the Terminators to be Pre-Heresy or even just paint them that way the Iron Hands scheme really didn't change it would mostly be in the little details and use them as Pre-Heresy Morlocks... just sayin.

[energongoodie]

[QUOTE=Vash113;18102]Yes I know of the quote but are you seriously suggesting that one quote retcons the entire previous fluff of the Iron Hands including the Horus Heresy material, the book the Iron Hands and the Index Astartes article? I most certainly think not. Now if there was something more concrete, sure, but one quote means nothing.

Yes. I am suggesting that. I do not no how long you have been playing, but I have been in 40k a while. In this time I have seen a lot of changes to a lot of things.
Fluff is just that. It isn't solid. GW can change anything they like. The emperors personal Legion were the Dark Angels, Leman Russ was a space marine commander with cybernetic lungs. Space Marines were exclusively hive ganger scum formed into super soldiers. Genestealers had cults and no big tyranid buddies on hive ships. There is loads more.
If GW have decided that the Iron Hands adopted certain aspects of the Codex Astartes after the Heresy then they adopted certain aspects of the Codex Astartes after the Heresy. Whether there is an Iron Hands Novel that says different or not. Simple.
You can't cling on to certain these things you have read and take them as gospel, as great as they might be, cause they are out of our control and are always subject to change. These changes can be generated by business concerns and the generation of new army's. i.e Tau, Black Templars, Tyranids, that then need shoe horning in to the 40k universe. They can be interest driven, like the Iron Hands. Not so many people are in to them so they get relegated to borderline Vanilla marines in the Fluff.
Just roll with the punches and make your army how you want your army to be.
The game came first. The fluff came after.

All Fluff changes. Just ask the Rainbow Warriors.

[josiah]

you could make the last 10 honor guard simple and ez. honor guard should most definitely be 1st co.

[Vash113]

You can't cling on to certain these things you have read and take them as gospel, as great as they might be, cause they are out of our control and are always subject to change. These changes can be generated by business concerns and the generation of new army's. i.e Tau, Black Templars, Tyranids, that then need shoe horning in to the 40k universe. They can be interest driven, like the Iron Hands. Not so many people are in to them so they get relegated to borderline Vanilla marines in the Fluff.

All Fluff changes. Just ask the Rainbow Warriors.

Regardless, you are missing the point. It is one quote, one shockingly small quote and the only, ONLY thing about it that is curious is that it is attributed to an Iron Hands Chapter Master. So your saying that one attribution overwrights hundreds of pages of material? Please, that's just lame.

Besides while fluff does change, while things do evolve, there has to be somewhat concrete evidence for that evolution to occur. One attribution hardly is substantial enough to say the Chapter now has a Chapter Master let alone that ALL of the Iron Hands background has been retconned. As I mentioned before there are dozens of possible explenations, mis-attribution by Imperial authorities, a temporary honorary position given to a respected Council member during a crisis similar to the "Castellan of Cadia" position of Ursurkar E. Creed, and the invasion of Medusa during the 13th Black Crusade would certainly be justification for such a thing. Or perhaps the Iron Hands put up a prop Chapter Master to appease Inquisitorial curiosity at some point, etc, etc, etc. Only one possible explenation is that the Iron Hands must now have a Chapter Master, just one, there are many other equally likely explenations and even then to assume that the Iron Hands must be a Codex Chapter now is a gross exageration and twisting of the fluff.

It's not gospel, it's demanding proper evidence before abandoning the older material. Veterans used to be versatile, well rounded units, the new Codex relegated them to specialised positions of Vanguard or Sternguard but there are pages of fluff on that in the new Codex making the change clear and obvious. Ambiguity is not proper textual evidence.

Likewise if every mistake in the fluff justifies a retcon I could say Land Raiders now all have rear hatches thanks to that little mistake in the Salamanders book that just came out. Is that really justification for a retcon? Of course not, it's an easily understood mistake by an author who either didn't know or forgot. There are literally hundreds of such things throghout the fluff, GW doesn't do a whole lot of editing to the fictional content in either novels or codexies. Why would a single quote necessarily be any different? It's one quote, there's nothing solid or unambiguous to back it up and it contradicts all other material on the subject, so are we to assume that GW has cassually tossed away over a decade of established fluff or isn't it more likely that somebody adding filler quotes just used the first Chapter that came to mind without necessarily knowing the background of said Chapter?

Fluff changes, but ya gotta do better than one quote attribution to prove the Iron Hands now have an overall Chapter Master. But even then that's absolutely all you can prove with that quote and nothing else.

Anyway my appologies for getting into a debate in foostoofoo's thread and sidetracking it. This will be the last I'll say on the subject, besides there really is nothing else to say.

That said good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some pics of your converted Vanguard.

As for the Honor Guard they are not necessarily members of the First Company, rather I'd say they are probably either divided amongst the Companies as the fluff for the origional Ultramarines Honor Guard suggested or they are likely simply permanently attatched at Command Level like their non-honor brethren the Command Squads.

[MajorSoB]

Two thoughts on this subject...

1) Vash is absolutely right in his quotation of the Iron Hands fluff. There has always been some ambiguity as to the actual structure of this chapter due to the clans that exist. It seems to suggest that clan structure overrides the traditional company structure. Also he is dead right that there are only 7 dreadnaughts known to this chapter as well as most of its terminator armor being lost during the great betrayal of the Horus Heresy. The remaining suits were distributed to tactical squads to inspire and uplift moral. This aspect was represented in past versions of the rules as well as the absence of chaplains, a role the Iron Fathers are supposed to fill. This is the background of the chapter but...

2) People play this game for a wide variety of reasons. If making a first company inspires you then do what your heart tells you to do. Just understand that some old timers and purists will not accept it. Heck I play in an area where you are belittled if you play chaos without sacred numbers. Find the mention of sacred numbers in the current codex...LOL.

[energongoodie]

Sorry for Hi-jacking your thread. I'll start a 'Fluff argument thread' later.
As for the Iron Hands, I'm looking forward to seeing some photos.
As far as model suggestions go, I've been using Necron parts, I think, moderately succesfully. I shall post some pictures soon.
Lets keep the Iron Hands loving up and generate enough love to get us a Codex!

[ryuhei2000]

Not to mention that the Iron Hands probably don't even have close to 50 suits of Terminator Armor after the complete loss of the Morlock's during the Dropsite Massacre in the Istvaan system. Those they do have are granted to senior officers and sergeants and rarely if ever consolidated into squads so as to spread the influence and inspiration of the glorious technology as widely as possible.

these kind of posts always pop up on any topic concerning iron hands fluff, here is the break down to correct and illuminate any who need more info on the ironhands.

chapter master
- there is a position of chapter master, to the best of my knowledge the last one was stronos, the inventor of the razorback, hence the lascannon and tl plasma-gun razorback, commonly known as the stronos pattern, this was over four millenia ago.
- a chapter master is chosen from the council in times of requirement, via a vote, this can only be an iron father.

council
- the council is comprised of sixteen members, an iron father and a venerable dreadnought from each of the 8 clans.

terminators
- terminators are simply used for a different function by the iron hands, yes squads of them are fielded, however a very important role for them is as an inspirational/aspirational tool
- morlocks are very different from terminators, these are the guys who were seriously reduced at the istvaan 5 dropsite massacre, these guys really go to show how influential a force the ironhands were, only the morlocks were taken to istvaan, because the ferrus wanted to get there quick, being a primarch you don't have to wait for your bodyguard to head home before you go kick some heretic butt, plus with over 30,000 morlock fitting cosily into one ship, you've got quite a force at you beck and call.
- so morlocks (basicly twin lightning claw terminators) whose sole task is to protect ferrus mannus were the ones who went to istvaan 5, and were wiped out, not the legions' entire compliment of terminators and veterens.

dreadnoughts
- okay i've never found where is says there is only 7 dreadnoughts in the iron hands chapter, and no one could provide me with a source, i have however found an old book which refers to the ultramarines 'hesitation' on insulting the ironhands given their mo and their literal legion of dreadnoughts. a nifty plus from istvaan 5, plenty of bodies to fill dreadnoughts.

istvaan 5
- obviously a big point in the iron hands history was istvaan 5, but i've covered most of that in the previous paragraphs, so now i'm going to use some logic to dispell some of the misunderstandings which have risen from this incident.
1. repopulation of the iron hands, the idea that the ironhands suffered enough damage as to limit them almost 10,000 years later is frankly preposterous, the salamanders on the other hand were wiped out to a dozen men, and yet they're now considered to be a major power for the imperium, the same goes for the ravenguard.

these are the facts as i've collected them, if there are any disputes then go for it, i'll gladly listen to anything different, i like excuses to delve into the ironhands fluff, it's a massive challenge, because gw seems to hate the ironhands, why i don't know.

but the most important thing to remember about fluff is that it's all wrong, there is no constant, the fluff in the codicies is wrong, and changes with every single book, the black library is written by people who don't necesarilly know anything about 40k, and so on, the only thing i can say at the end of the day is, what is above is what i believe, what do you believe?

but i also cant wait for pictures, with grey knights out tomorrow i'll be finishing my guys off asap, and will post when i can.