Counter Counter-Charge

[ArchonPhelps]

My DE was playing against SW and a question arose. If I have a Phantasm Grenade Lancher, which counts as defensive grenades, and I assault his squad he rolls for counter charge, +1 attack as if he was charging.

Would my grenades cancel his +1 attack?

[Hive Mind]

Don't have the rulebook to hand but my guts says no. AFAIK defensive grenades only rob the +1A for assaulting and the SWs aren't assaulting.

[Old_Paladin]

It's in the Space Wolves FAQ, page 4.
The wolves still get the counter-attack bonus; the feeling is that it doesn't really make sense that the assaulting unit gets both an assault bonus, then a defensive bonus.

[ArchonPhelps]

It's in the Space Wolves FAQ, page 4.
The wolves still get the counter-attack bonus; the feeling is that it doesn't really make sense that the assaulting unit gets both an assault bonus, then a defensive bonus.

Thanks for the info. I feel stupider than normal. I like how they say about the bonus then they say that you can use multiple grenades in a different FAQ. Silly GW

[Old_Paladin]

Don't feel stupid; a lot of people don't agree with their FAQ's.
They do seem somewhat random at time. It can be a guidline at times; but the FAQ's aren't exactly written in stone. If they wanted those rules to be clear and consistant, they'd do an erreta and add a line to defensive grenades and counter-assault.

I'm personally in the air about the interactions with furious-charge, counter assault and defensive grenades.
And think the FAQ for stealth is the worst one I've ever seen (it is RAW, but it clearly wasn't thought out).

[Hive Mind]

I personally think Counter-Assault and Defensive Grenades have a fairly simply relationship. The wording for CA says they get the +1A "as if they were assaulting" and not that the CAing unit "counts as assaulting".

If they counted as assaulting then they wouldn't get the +1A. Since they're not assaulting, they do. IMO, of course.

[Old_Paladin]

The 'counts as' and 'acts as if' have always seemed a little too close for my taste. That if hints that it might not be the same; but it's still using the rule, so shouldn't it follow all the conjoined rules.
But GW is infamous for using similar words to both mean different things and the same thing.

It would be very clear if they simply put CA units "gain +1 attack, but do not count as/act as if assaulting." One word, completely clear, no issues (it would also solve the furious charge issue too).
But they don't treat their errata like that.

[Hive Mind]

To me 'counts as' means that in all respects they are treated as doing whatever action they 'count as' doing while act 'as if' is used to confer a specific benefit from that action without also being subject to any burdens.

For example, would a Counter Attacking unit that was in the middle of a large piece of Area Terrain count as assaulting through cover? Clearly not as the rule is written but if they counted as assaulting rather than acting as if they were assaulting then yes, they would

[ArchonPhelps]

If they just wanted you to get the +1 attack then they should have wrote that instead of "count as charging". Yes I know GW is not that smart. But you see why that is why I asked.

[Dominic]

Also, we think it is a bit
rich for an assaulting unit to get the bonus for attacking
and defending, so no, defensive grenades cannot be used
to negate the bonus attack from counter-attacking.

From the Space Wolves FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620228a_Space_Wolves_Version_1_1.pdf) just for the exact wording of the rule :)