Eldar: Scatter Laser vs Starcannon?

[Order_from_Chaos]

Hey there,

I am thinking about starting a Eldar army and was wondering which is more effective the scatter laser or starcannon. I have read some stuff about forcing saves with scatter laser is better but then FnP will make it even less effective. Is it just better to go with all starcannons in order to wipe those pesky marines off the table? Or go with the cheaper Scatter laser option and use fire dragons to take on all those high armored infantry/vehicles?

Thanks

[fuzzbuket]

dependes on what you need it for

scatter pros:
high S
lots of shots( so if its low BS you can still hit)
cons:
low AP
average at tank busting

starcannon:
High S
low A
cons:
less shots
not good at tankbusting

and there you have it! also eldar missles and birght lances for tankbusting.

IHMO i normally use scatter laser on war walkers, and load everything else shuriken cannons and EMl's

[Scion_of_Terra]

The merely average BS of Eldar also needs to be taken into account. Since all eldar units that take starcannons/scatter lasers are BS 3, you want to be able to compensate for that. Even Guide can only get you so far; a Guided starcannon will hit 1.5 times on average, compared to the scatter laser's 3. Now, back in the day, when starcannons had 3 shots and scatter lasers had D6, I would have said take starcannons every time. Now, I'd recommend scatter lasers. Just make sure that you can swap them out - with a new BRB and codex on the horizon, be prepared for a sudden change.

[Xenith]

Star cannons are better at killing marines in the open. As soon as cover becomes involved, the starcannon is better in all respects.

I also did the math a while ago, and statistically, a scatter laser is also better at killing AV10/11 than an EML. Cant remember what the result for AV12 was, but the BS3 really, really hurts missiles.

[DarkLink]

In general, scatter lasers mixed with guide are the way to go for Eldar. You get lots of light anti tank and anti infantry all in one go, and since Eldar vehicles tend to be expensive that flexibility is a big plus. You also have Fire Dragons and a couple other sources to give you decent high ap fire, so you can stick with scatter lasers for the most part.

What you really have to compare to are Eldar heavy ant tank weapons. Most Eldar lists will be lacking in stuff that can kill AV 12+ at range, which can be a problem. Unfortunately it's not a problem that's easy to get around.

[Xanadu]

Starcannon vs Infantry @ BS3

GEQ: 0.83
XEQ: 0.83
MEQ: 0.83
TEQ: 0.55

Scatter Laser vs Infantry @ BS3

GEQ: 1.11
XEQ: 0.83
MEQ: 0.55
TEQ: 0.27

Starcannon vs Infantry @ BS4

GEQ: 1.11
XEQ: 1.11
MEQ: 1.11
TEQ: 0.74

Scatter Laser vs Infantry @ BS4

GEQ: 1.48
XEQ: 1.11
MEQ: 0.74
TEQ: 0.37

Guided BS3 Star

GEQ: 1.25
XEQ: 1.25
MEQ: 1.25
TEQ: 0.83

Guided BS3 Scat

GEQ: 1.66
XEQ: 1.25
MEQ: 0.83
TEQ: 0.41

Guided BS3 Star

GEQ: 1.48
XEQ: 1.48
MEQ: 1.48
TEQ: 0.98

Guided BS4 scat

GEQ: 1.97
XEQ: 1.48
MEQ: 0.98
TEQ: 0.49

Scat/ Star @ BS3 (destr)

AV10: 0.33/0.16
AV11: 0.22/0.11
AV12: No destr poss outright
AV13: No destr poss
AV14: No destr poss

Scat/ Star @ BS4 (destr)

AV10: 0.44/0.22
AV11: 0.29/0.14
AV12: no destr poss outright
AV13: No destr poss
AV14: No Destr poss


Right,

Pretty much - Scats shred infantry, starcannons are better vs MEQ and TEQ.
Scats are better vs vehicles though. By a long old shot. Ap2 does nothing for them here.

Still, Stars aren't as good as meltaguns for shooting heavy infantry - you can get lots more Fire dragons than you can starcannons.

Yes, i did do all the maths in excel, and no I can't share the document - i broke it.

[Order_from_Chaos]

Hey Xanadu,
I'm not familiar with the definitions for GEQ , XEQ , MEQ , TEQ I'm new to the forums if you could clarify so that I know in the furture that would be awesome :D

[thecactusman17]

G, M, and T are fairly clear: He's talking Guard, Marine, and Terminator equivalents.

But X?

Possibly Ork/Tyranid equivalents? X for xenos?

[eldargal]

Bear in mind that starcannons are 40-66% more expensive than scatter lasers depending on the vehicle type taking them. The fact is while starcannons are moderately better at MEQ and TEQ you can have more scatter lasers than you can starcannons in an army. I tend to fire dragons and nightspinners against terminators (don't laugh, nightspinners slow an already slow unit down sometimes killing some with the initial shot and the dangerous terrain test) or I kite them and igonre them with nightspinners help.

[Xanadu]

Xeq is 4+ save, t3 guys.

Ie eldar aspects, tau fire warriors and guardsmen with the 4+.

I like to include in in my mathhammering,

[scadugenga]

To really look at it--you need to see things from a historical perspective:

1st-2nd ed: Scatter Laser was whoppingly cool. 6 shots at St 6, 60" range. It was hella effective.

1st-2nd ed: There was no such thing as a Starcannon. Eldar used Plasma weaponry like everyone else.

3rd ed: Scatter Laser gets the huge (and I mean HUGE) nerf: 36" range, d6 shots. That's right...33% of the time it was less effective than a IG multilaser, and only more effective 50% of the time. The safest military job in the eldar warhost was to be a scatter laser crewman...

3rd ed: Starcannon: This was a new weapon for the eldar, and it quickly became the pride and joy of eldar farseers everywhere. (There was no "autarch" listing before 4th ed.) Str 6, AP 2 and Hvy 3. 3 shots, consistently killing MEQ/TEQ (before thundershields got to be 3++ period) when cover wasn't so readily available.

There was no reason to take anything BUT a starcannon in 3rd ed eldar, save for a few bright lances here or there to deal with enemy armor. (3rd ed fire dragons were only Str 6 melta back then.)

4th ed. saw that there was a need to switch things up. They made the Scatter Laser a Hvy 4 weapon, to be always better (slightly) than a multilaser, and more attractive for at-range firing than a Shuriken Cannon. The Starcannon rec'd an arguably needed, but necessary nerf to Hvy 2.

4th Ed still favored the starcannon slightly because cover was still not as prevalent as in the current 5th edition paradigm.

Now, a 4th ed codex in a 5th ed world:

Yes, Starcannon still bypass MEQ armor quite reliably, at 50% of the shots.

However, 4+ cover is so readily available as to potentially make the Starcannon the "scatter laser of 3rd edition."

Eldar shooting in the 5th edition world really relies more on volume of fire than quality of shots hitting the target. It's better to force more save rolls than have fewer shots that still get a cover save.

So, to my way of thinking, the Scatter Laser is back in the running over the Starcannon, but it still does cost more than the basic Shuriken Cannon, which is Hvy 3 and 24" range.

Ultimately--take what you want--just be aware of how your choice works within the current paradigm.