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View Full Version : Can you take luck out of 40k



Ivarr
09-09-2009, 09:34 AM
Ok, so I need some input from the general populous here...I have notoriously bad luck with the dice...my Space Marines fail 2/3 of their armor saves, my Necrons get back up with a "we'll be back" roll about 1/5 of the time...after failing 2/3 of the armor saves...I am an average/above average tactician...been playing the game plenty long to understand what works, but with the dice stacked against me no one would ever know it.

Can the influence of the dice on the game be minimized? Is it possible to build an army that takes the luck out of the game? Is there a list that can reward good play while minimizing the punishment for having abysmal luck with the dice?

Please don't try to turn this into an argument about whether or not luck exists, as I have had that discussion with 100s of players...until they play me...then they apologize for my dice, shake my hand and join the rather large group of people who say "You won't believe it!" to the next guy who wants to debate the existence of luck.

In any case, I am very curious about suggested builds or army tactics...

VinceBlack
09-09-2009, 12:51 PM
Get yourself a copy of Dawn of War 2 and let that be that, 40k no dice. Other than that I have to say you are gonna have to bite the bullet and accept the fact that dice based games may not be for you. :(

entendre_entendre
09-09-2009, 09:13 PM
other than "roll-cheating" techniques (which is still cheating!), new dice? or after a game you could "go commissar" on one of your dice & smash it in front of your other dice as a warning. might help with the insubordination among the die ranks.

Red__Thirst
09-09-2009, 09:54 PM
Now now guys, why all the nay-saying? There are alternatives here.

Ivarr, you have an option here. Consider the following facts.

1.) There is a law of averages. You happen to fall on the downwards side of that slope sadly.

2.) In order to bring you back towards the golden mean, you have to try to eliminate some rolls, and at the same time add to or modify others in some ways.

Here's one suggestions for you. There are others but this one seems to jump out at me the most.

Play Salamanders Space Marines with the Vulkan He'stan character leading them. This gives you the following benefits.
- Twin-linking all melta and flame based weaponry (Guess what I reccomend you field?... Melta/multimelta/flamer squads)
- Fielding Terminators with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers (As he mastercrafts these weapons) And even if you roll very poorly, you can still make most of your terminator's armor saves on a 2+.
Now Flamers help here because they take out the all-important to-hit roll, you just place the template and whatever is touched is hit. You get to double-dip on this front as the weapon counts as twin-linked because of Vulkan and you can re-roll those pesky failed-to-wound rolls. This is what I meant when I said take out some rolls and add to/modify others.
Melta weapons are also very nice because they're twin-linked on the to-hit roll because of Vulkan, and then wound damn near anything on a 2+. Even rolling below average, you're not going to roll a 1 every single time.

Essentially, if you're trying to improve your odds, go for as much twin-linked stuff as you can and 'stack the odds' in your favor.

Here's an example list for you.

HQ: Vulkan He'Stan.

Elite: 2x 5 man terminator squads w/ Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields.

Troops: Tactical squads with multimelta heavy weapons and either melta or flamer as special weapons. Give your Sgt's powerfists and combi flamers or Combimeltas. Stick 'em in drop pods or rhinos, good to go.

Fast Attack: Bike Squad with 2 marines with flamers and an attack bike with a multimelta; another option is a few land speeders with a multimelta and heavy flamers

Heavy Support: Land Raider Remeemers, as every weapon on this bad-boy that isn't already twinlinked (The assault cannon) counts as twin linked (super flamer cannons & pintle multimelta) because of Vulkan.

That's essentially the gist of the army list. Of course add other things as desired, a chaplain as a second HQ, an assault squad instead of a bike squad (I prefer bike squads though, more expensive but have higher toughness, which means fewer wounds vs. Small arms fire, which means fewer saves you have to attempt) etc.. etc.. etc. :)

There are other options for other armies as well. If that doesn't pique your interest Ivarr, let me know on here and I'll share some other thoughts with you.

Hope that helps.

-Red__Thirst-

warpcrafter
09-09-2009, 11:00 PM
Red Thirst is right. Damn near the only things I can count on at range in my Ork army are the following.
Deff Koptas: Twin-linked big shootas.
Nobs: Combi-shootas, also twin-linked.
Burna Boyz: Flamers.

Honorable mention!
Mad Dok Grotsnik: Gives any unit cybork bodies for 5 pts per Ork. 5+ invulnerable save beats the hell out of a 6+ normal save any time. It nearly Doubles the points cost of Ork Boyz, but then again, in 5th edition horde armies are just stupid.

sorienor
09-10-2009, 06:53 PM
Heavy Support: Land Raider Remeemers, as every weapon on this bad-boy that isn't already twinlinked (The assault cannon) counts as twin linked (super flamer cannons & pintle multimelta) because of Vulkan.



sorry to derail the topic, but Flamestorm cannons do NOT become twin-linked with Vulkan because they are not "flamers" or "heavy flamers" but "flamestorm cannons" - which are not listed in the Vulkan entry.


Nobs: Combi-shootas, also twin-linked.

kombi-weapons are not twin linked.

warpcrafter
09-10-2009, 08:08 PM
sorry to derail the topic, but Flamestorm cannons do NOT become twin-linked with Vulkan because they are not "flamers" or "heavy flamers" but "flamestorm cannons" - which are not listed in the Vulkan entry.



kombi-weapons are not twin linked.

If they combine a shoota with a rokkit launcha or burna, then no but if they have two shoota barrels then they are essentially a twin-linked shoota.

MajorSoB
09-10-2009, 10:43 PM
OK, I know you wont like this answer but here goes anyways.

Luck does exist, both good luck and bad luck, but over time it all falls into a predictable statical average, period. In contrast to every addicted gambler who believe they are one roll or pull away from easy street, you are convinced that you are always one bad roll away from another loss. It doesnt work like that, yes we all have rolled bad ( I remember rolling ten saves on a squad of sister and failing them all and in the same tourney having a Baneblade destroyed from a single lascannon shot ( Odds are 1 in 648 under the old super heavy titan chart rules) ). What I am sure that is happening is that you do have a few rolls that beat the odd but they are quickly dismissed. Your luck is not all bad I am sure of that. Now on to your question...

There are armies that are "solid tournament builds" and there are armies that are "random fun armies". You can help take the numbers out of the game depending on the army then what you play in it. Some armies that rely heavily on luck are like Deamon armies (rolling first to get the right half in then relying on good scatters) and deep striking termie armies without teleport homers, in opposition to drop podding marines ( damn near impossible to loss to a poor scatter ). Some weapons are more random than others. Blast weapons that require a scatter dice deviate 2/3 of the time. Twin-linked weapons are much better than standard weapons. Are you placing your shots in low percentage areas? Do you lose shots due to range? Are you passing up easy shots for ones that will give your opponent cover saves? Are you targeting correctly in regards to range or target priority? How about close combat, are you picking your fights or foolishly charging Khorne Beserkers and Genestealers with little hopes of winning? Strategy can influence the luck you are having or not having. Are you constantly scouting or infiltrating units when you shouldnt? How about reserves, do you know when to hold units in reserve and when to deploy your entire force? Did you transport your Necrons through a nearby Monolith to get an extra chance of reactivating their WBB mechanism or fire the Monolith instead? Are you allocating you wounds properly in regards to your Marines or taking saves you should take? All these factor into game luck. Its just like sports like golf etc, when you hit high percentage shots rather than constantly taking risks it is reflected in your score. Are you playing risky or safe. Watch the really good players that play 40K. See if you can tell what they will do a turn or two in advance. Its just like chess, in order to be good you need to out think your opponent and prepare for his turn before he takes it. I am not saying this is the case but I have consoled an unlucky player who has lost when I know in my mind he never had a chance due to the army, weapons and strategies he played. Sure dice are a factor but only a small factor. Keep trying and learn from your mistakes, stop blaming your dice. Good luck!

Axel
09-10-2009, 11:37 PM
I used to think I was unlucky too, constantly moaning about how I failed so many saves or couldn't move through cover to save my life. Opponents would, in hindsight, treat this fairly politely. What I realised later is that dice-based games really are all about swings and roundabouts. So, I failed 9 out of 10 4+ cover saves? That just means I should hit 9 out of 10 4+ shooting attacks on my turn. On a hunch once, I kept a brief scribble pad handy during the game and recorded what the dice did to me during each game. I quickly discovered I wasn't unlucky at all, in fact I had a slightly favourable dice distribution (since corrected...).

What might be happening to you is what happened to me. You fixate on the negatives all the time and forget that perhaps you passed every single morale check for the entire game, or you hardly ever scatter blasts. Maybe your reserves always show up on Turn 2 or your outflanks uncannily hit the side you need them to.

The previous posters are correct in that some dice rolls can be removed from the game, while others can be stacked in your favour. Good competitive players will do this (like the Vulkan example above). The game is then more about maneuvering and tactics than "luck". That being said, real world battlefields are chaotic and random events do happen. Count yourself lucky that you can see the entire battlefield, have clearly delineated boundaries to your battlefield AND your troops (mostly) do exactly what you tell them to. Dice are, mercifully, the best things we have to represent that "fog of war" real commanders labour so hard against.