Ork Shooting (don't laugh you'll be scolded)

[eldargal]

So, I made the mistake of loling at Ork shooting on the Lounge Blog on some issue or other which was really just a platform for a fungus infection joke that no one got. Someone pointed out that point per point Orks are as efficient at shooting as Dire Avengers.

10 Dire Avengers @ 120pts:
20 shots, 13.3 hit, 6.7 wound no save to the Ork= 6.7 dead orks or 33.5%.

20 Ork shoota boys @ 120pts:
40 shots, 13.3 hit, 8.8 wound, 4+ save on the DA - 4.4 dead DA or 44%.

But if we take into account casualties caused by the Dire Avengers:

14 Ork shoota boys
28 shots, 9.3 hits, 6.2 wounds, 3.1 dead DA or 31%

So twice as many Orks kill half as Dire Avengers as Dire Avengers kill Orks for a 2% lower efficiency.

Now from here on things get worse.

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch w Bladestorm and twin catapults @ 152 points.
30 shots, 20 hit, 10 wounds, no save so 10 Orks deceased or 40%.

25 Orks with shootas @ 150 points.
50 shots, 16.6 hit, 11.1 wounds, 5 DA deceased or 50%

But if we take into account casualties:
12 Orks shoot 24 shots, 8 hit, 4.6 wounds, 2.3 dead DA or 23%

So am I right to laugh at Ork shooting? Because honestly if they shoot first I'm incompetent.To be honest if I don't have at least one other shooting unit nearby to support the DA and an assault unit to assault the depleted Orks I'm also incompetent. Not to mention parking the DA wave serpent in front of them to foul up assault lines and give them cover and innumerable other factors.

In the three years since the Ork codex was released I've never felt Ork shooting to be a threat and I've never had an army shot up by them. Now I should say I am NOT underestimating Orks, I've just never been given cause to worry about their shooting.

So am I lucky, or is Ork shooting the least worrisome aspect of fighting them?

P.S. Nightspinners > Orks on foot.

[Ulf]

1.: On the blog you said something about fleet being a reason why DA win a shootout against boys with shootas. Can't find it anymore since you (someone else?) edited all your posts to "..." so I can't quote you on it, but you might remember it anyway. How could fleet be a advantage in a pure shootout?

2.: You neglect the big shootas. 36" range and 3 shots at Strength 5 per 10 boys - whos getting the first shots now, eh? :) I'm not gonna mathhamer it out to the end here, but the avengers lose in a theoretical 1vs1 setting.

3.: You neglect cover. Orks don't have armor, so they go for cover. Try factoring in a meagre 5+ cover save... doesnt look good for the DA.

4.: It's just plain shoota boys pitted against DA,high volume low str shooting specialists. Anything even close to a draw should not be laughed at. ;)

[eldargal]

I didn't mean to say fleet, and then I forgot what I was trying to say.:rolleyes: As to big shootas, the initial post was on a point per point basis and involved 30 Orks which cost more than the Dire Avengers did so adding big shootas for even more cost would have swung the comparison out of balance by close to 45 points or something. The only reason I brought in the Exarch and abilities was the fact the points were becoming unbalanced. If you spend a lot more on a fully kitted out shooty Ork mob, then of course it will outshoot a single DAsquad but you are paying 33% more to do it with three times the troops.

I play on fairly terrain heavy boards and even then Orks have trouble finding cover for a whole mob of 20+ without obscuring LOS entirely. But again the comparison was a basic Ork vs DA thing with as few variables as possible.

I deleted the posts because the whole 'yeah, but a 1v1 comparison doesn't work anyway' thing had started. I know, the fact is I wouldn't even be shooting that Ork unit if I wasn't sure I could cripple or destroy it and stop it shooting back in the first place, but that would make a poor comparison.:)

[DrLove42]

Ork shooting is actually pretty scary some times. Buy into the adage "throw enough **** and something will stick"

Your points vs points thing then all needs to take into account the fact the Orks will probably own in combat.

I think points vs point you should be comparing them against the same target. How many Marines does a squad of DA kill, and how many does an equivilent points cost of Orks kill?

Also it highly amuses me that an Ork with a Rokkit Launcher is as accurate at shooting down aircraft as a Marine...(both needing 6's). I've always thought to shoot a flier you need to hit normally, then roll 6's

[eldargal]

Fair point, I guess I've become too good at not giving the opportunity. It takes a huge lot of poop thrown to stick to a wave serpent or holoFalcon.:)

I don't try and kill Marines with DA but (I think) a full DA squad with exarch etc. would kill an average of 3.3 Marines to 25 Orks 3.7.

The way I see it Orks on foot are just begging to be shot with nightspinners and even dispersed shots from fire prisms, then bladestormed, shot at by scatter lasers and then assaulted.

[DrLove42]

The way I see it Orks on foot are just begging to be shot with nightspinners and even dispersed shots from fire prisms, then bladestormed, shot at by scatter lasers and then assaulted.

Or Venoms, Cannons, Splinters, Flamer Weapons, Leman Russ Shells, Vindicator Rounds, Whirlwind Shots, Tyrannofaxes...etc.etc...

Basically Orks in the open die :P

[eldargal]

Yup, and Nightspinners are especially good as they have he barrage rule so cover is less effective. Even if the Orks are in cover, well if they are keeping to cover they aren't waaaghing towards my units so I've succeeded in reducing their mobility, another plus for Eldar.

[Ulf]

Big Shootas are only 5 pts a piece, so they work pretty good at equal points. No need to go 33% over the DA, 1:1 is what we're talking about, right?

Any comparison not including upgrade options like the exarch or big shootas would be kinda strange, since nobody uses the units like that. Plus, if the Exarchs do Bladestorm, they can't shoot the next turn, which is pretty bad...

Cover is easy. First, as a shoota boy, you dont care if your enemy has cover, since you dont penetrate his armor anyway. So you can simply walk behind your fellow orks. Second, you don't need to hide all 20+ boys in terrain to get cover - half the unit is enough. Its not that farfetched to assume Orks use cover, it happens, believe me.

Now to back it up with some mathhammering, since thats the only thing kids today believe in:

24 Shoota Boyz
2 Big Gunz
154 Points

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch with twin catapults
Bladestorm
152 Points

Orks are set up in cover, DA are forced to move in due to limited range.

Eldar get first turn, move+run from 36+ inches to 24+ inches distance.
Orks shoot big gunz, 6 shots, 2 hits, 5/3 wounds, 5/6 dead DA.

Eldar move to 18+ inches. (they could instead run get into range 1 turn sooner, but they would be in range of the regular shootas then without being able to shoot them first, so thats a baaaad idea)
Orks shoot. Big gunz kill 5/6 as above.

Eldar move to 18- inches and unleash their bladestorm. 7 1/3 DA shoot 22 shots. 14 2/3 hits, 7 1/3 wounds, 3 2/3 dead Orks after cover saves. Exarch has 5 shots, 5 1/6 hits, 2 1/12 wounds, 1 1/24 dead orks. Lets call that 5 dead Orks.

Orks shoot back. 2 Big shootas kill 5/6 DA as above. 17 Shootas, 34 shots, 11 1/3 hits, 7 5/9 wounds, 3 7/9 dead DA.

So far, we have 2,5 dead DA due to big shootas, plus 3 7/9 due to shootas, lets call that 6 dead DA (60%) vs 5 dead Orks (~21%). I even rounded some numbers in favour of the Eldar. And the DA cant shoot next turn due to bladestorm. I call that a win for the Orks.

[eldargal]

See that's the thing, why would I move the DA into range in the first place? If you are out of range of my shuriken catapults then you are well away from assault so I don't care, I'll just trust to cover and your abyssmal BS to protect me from the big shootas. This is the problem with adding in a majorvariable like a new weapon with a different range, like I said the initial comparison was point per point and then 10 DA vs 30 Orks, so that is what I was working with.

Eldar will hit with two thirds of their shots, Orks will miss with two thirds of theirs. I don't fear Ork shooting.:)

[Ulf]

Eldar will hit with two thirds of their shots, Orks will miss with two thirds of theirs. I don't fear Ork shooting.:)

So if you get shot at with BS 1 and 600 shots thats not as bad for you as 6 shots with BS 5? :)

[eldargal]

That would be an extreme example, but I wouldn't fear getting shot with 60 BS2 shots anymore or less than I would getting shot with 20 BS4.:) When I'm facing Orks, their shooting is not first on my mind, avoiding assault is. Marines, on the other hand, worry me with both, for example. Even when I'm facing thirty shoota boys, I'm more worried about making sure I thin them enough for my scorpions to finish them off than I am about what they might shoot.

So thirty Orks fully kitted out might be a match for ten Dire Avengers, but I still don't equate that to worrying about Ork shooting.

[Old_Paladin]

It's not about the shooting; it's really about the combined-arms (almost like the eldar, really).

Shoota boyz aren't just for shooting. They can move, shoot, take a round of return fire, move and shoot again, then charge into combat.
Ork vehicles are also open-topped, allowing that 12 or 20 strong unit to fire out on the move(something craftworld Eldar cannot do).

Ork shooting is pretty good, but it's the icing on the cake of a decent melee unit.
The Dire Avengers aren't that good in melee; unless you're Exarch takes defend and a shimmershield, but then you've given up shooting for balance, something the orks don't have to do.

Once you expand beyond single units; orks get mek-bosses for walking cover (100 points for 1/3 less losses is pretty good). [of course, this opens up the option of the dire avengers being led by a farseer with guide, doom and fortune; huh, it's almost like there's many levels of skill and thought to the game...;)]



I wouldn't fear getting shot with 60 BS2 shots anymore or less than I would getting shot with 20 BS4.:) When I'm facing Orks, their shooting is not first on my mind, avoiding assault is.

I'd be worried by 60 BS2 shots, that's 20 str:4 hits; vs. the less then 14 hits with the other example.

If their shooting is not on your mind, that's and ork players advantage; its a phase that you've written off that they can be pretty effective in.

[eldargal]

Well that is the problem isn't it, I made a joke about Ork shooting, someone comes back with a 1v1 comparison which is hardly accurate, I respond to it and then someone comes back with '1v1 comparison are silly' so I delete everything and start this to discuss it.:p Ork boys might be better shots than DA when you outnumber them 2 or 3 to one, but that just means that Ork boys do more damager when they outnumber the opponent, not that Ork shooting is excessively bad. I fear rapid firing bolters a lot more.

You all make a lot of good points but I can't help feeling that if Orks trash my army through shooting, then that is more my failure than their ability. I mean most of my units are in a Wave Serpent, which is probably the toughest transport in the game (nothing over S12 and only one D6 for penetration) and between massed shuriken cannon, scatter laser and night spinner fire and subsequent assaults against weakened units I tend not to see that much shooting from regular boyz.

See I don't dismiss Ork shooting, not exactly. I've just never had any significant damage done to me because by the time shoota boys get to shoot I've either shot them to pieces or assaulted them and they can't shoot. It is another reason I hate theoryhammer.

Ulf, the initial comparison was not of my choosing. I joked about laughing at Ork shooting, someone says 'yeah well Orks and DA are the same' as if that is an end to it and I get drawn into this whole silly debate.:p

[Ulf]

That would be an extreme example, but I wouldn't fear getting shot with 60 BS2 shots anymore or less than I would getting shot with 20 BS4.:) When I'm facing Orks, their shooting is not first on my mind, avoiding assault is. Marines, on the other hand, worry me with both, for example. Even when I'm facing thirty shoota boys, I'm more worried about making sure I thin them enough for my scorpions to finish them off than I am about what they might shoot.

So thirty Orks fully kitted out might be a match for ten Dire Avengers, but I still don't equate that to worrying about Ork shooting.


Of course it's an extreme example. I chose it so you may come to the conclusion that BS is not everything when it comes to shooting, the number of shots is equally important, next to some more stats. You can't reduce the problem to "but Eldar have more BS". And if you take all relevant factors into consideration (granted, in a somewhat abstract scenario, but thats what theoryhammer is all about - as long as you stay somewhere in the realm of "this could happen on a table") and do the math for X vs Y, shoota boys win. You're free to call Ballistic Skill on my math, and I'm free to disagree with yours.. but the initial question was about X vs Y, and as long as we don't stray to things like "but shoota boyz would be killed by unit Z if they did this and that", I don't see the DA coming out of this comparison in one piece. Even in your own, strongly biased example from the initial post, things dont look too well for the DA if you take into consideration that they cant shoot the turn after bladestorm..

[Multigeneral]

Should you be afraid, not really. Should you respect it, definatly. I once had an entire Eldar army shot out from under me by a local Ork player trying out a maximised shooty list. He never even bothered to charge into combat. Now if you'll excuse me, I must spend the rest of my life attempting to live that loss down. (crawls back into his damp hole)

[Slacker]

Sounds like you fear getting shot at by Orks the same way I fear getting assaulted by Eldar. :p

In all seriousness, I view any damage Orks can do by shooting as gravy on top of their assault capabilities, and can often be that little difference needed to win in close situations.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I'd be worried about a build that took serious amounts of blast template stuff, but not their basic shooting. Despite the str 4, that BS2 immediately renders it moot.

In assault, though: terrifying.

[Paintraina]

Eldargal, you make a fair point. In a vacuum, your dire avengers should work over Ork Boyz in shooting point for point. You would hope this to be the case since they are aspect warriors after all.

However, I try to point out that in 5th ed, my boyz are going to have a cover save most of the time. In my opinion, cover becomes easier to generate the larger your unit is. Once you factor this in, the scales tip in favor of the ork shoota boyz pretty dramatically.

This is of course a matter of generalship, and if you can catch the boyz with their pants down (ohhh the innuendo) you will, and should, blow them away.

I'll explain the cover issue in further detail in next week's article.

[mstersmith]

Eldargal, you make a fair point. In a vacuum, your dire avengers should work over Ork Boyz in shooting point for point. You would hope this to be the case since they are aspect warriors after all.

However, I try to point out that in 5th ed, my boyz are going to have a cover save most of the time. In my opinion, cover becomes easier to generate the larger your unit is. Once you factor this in, the scales tip in favor of the ork shoota boyz pretty dramatically.

This is of course a matter of generalship, and if you can catch the boyz with their pants down (ohhh the innuendo) you will, and should, blow them away.

I'll explain the cover issue in further detail in next week's article.

This right here. While most boyz Ork armies are laughable due to the time constraints in tournies the Kann wall with 90-120 shoota boyz with 3 big shootas per a mob is 156 shots at 18" and 9 36" str5 big shoota shots. Depending on how they arm their kanns it can be a great amount of fire power.

[eldargal]

See this is what I mean. I don't worry about Ork shooting because I'm too busy trying to thin their numbers before they get into assault. I'm not trying to downplay the threat of Orks, I find them more intimidating to play than most other armies other than mech IG.:)


Should you be afraid, not really. Should you respect it, definatly.

[fuzzbuket]

your forgetting something

1) bouncing 18' range : YOU MAY NOT SHOOT ME
2) the combo of runinng and BLADESTORM!

[Da Gargoyle]

I gamed a guy for a while who used Ork shooting to his advantage. He put 10 lootas together and targeted
vehicles. If he got a good roll for shots there was a better than even chance one of my skimmers was downed.

What I think might be a fairer comparison in your scenario is ard boys v DA. You would get 11 boys, a nob and big shoota for roughly the same as 10 DA with the exarch firing an avenger catapult. I can't remember, can nobs kit out with big shootas any more?

It introduces the armour save and forces you to come to the orks because of that big shoota range. Otherwise everyone else is on an assault 2 18 range. DA better accuracy, Ork tougher and negates an armour save or two with the big shoota/s

Wot u fink?