Rumour vs Fact?

[StraightSilver]

In response to some comments that have been diretced at myself on various forums I thought I would start this topic.

If this is the wrong place please move it elsewhere.

Essentially I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions, but also try to guage opinion on the point of rumour threads relating to GW products, policies etc.

I would consider myself to be an avid gamer, what some people might consider obsessive.

I am fortunate enough to have been in the GW hobby for over 25 years, and in that time have met some great friends and made some very useful contacts.

I worked for GW in the late 80s / early 90s and in that time made some friends that I am still in contact with.

I visit Nottingham 3-4 times a year and am lucky enough to have friends who have worked directly for GW at Nottingham HQ, paint for 'Eavy Metal or who do freelance work for the company now.

So I would consider myself to be fairly well connected, but certainly don't consider myself to be any better connected than others on the internet, or believe that my opinion is any more valid than any body else's.

However I also have a job that allows me to spend possibly too much time on the internet which may be why sometimes I post on threads without considering the ongoing consequences.

I recently met up with an old colleague for lunch and over a quick pint had a great chat about some possible issues affecting GW right now.

I thought the community would be interested in the salient points of that meeting, but at no point did I say that my remarks should be taken as fact.

I woulldn't normally post random rumours from GW retail staffers (the infamous redshirts) but as this wasn't the case thought the points were worth posting.

Of course they were the opinion of one possibly disgruntled member of GW and so may be no more valid than the opinions of any other staff member or 40K fan, however it seemed interesting and worth mentioning.

The problem is because of GW policy whenever this sort of thing happens it is prudent to be a little circumspect in case somebody loses their job, and so anything posted comes across as wild speculation or hearsay, which of course it may well be.

However isn't that sort of the point of a rumours section on any forum.

You hear a rumour, put it out there and discuss its merits or flaws?

I do appreciate that sometimes things can be lost in translation, and that if every silly rumour or speculation was posted the internet would implode, but is one person's opinion really any more valid than any other?

Should we just not post something we have heard unless we can provide unequivical evidence of its veracity?

With GW's current news blackout, plus their policy of reprimanding staff for speaking out of turn this would be almost impossible.

Also the other thing that has happened with my comments was that other members on other forums have used them to start other threads, even posting them as an article on the front page of BOLS.

All this has resulted in is personal attacks against myself which I find a little hurtful, or maybe I am just being over sensitive?

As a result of all this I am considering simply not posting any info I receive for fear of ridicule, and jacking in my forum accounts so I can concentrate on painting my man barbies. :)

So the point of this thread is when should one post on a rumours thread? And why do people read a rumour and assume the poster is stating it as a fact?

Should News and Rumours be kept seperate?

[JxKxR]

I think you're being overly sensitive. Are you really going to get your feelings hurt because someone bad mouthed you over the internet???

*News Flash* There are trolls on the internet. :eek:

[StraightSilver]

You're probably absolutely right and I am being overly sensitive. ;)

I also have a habit of rambling off on a tangent when posting so my point may have got a bit lost amongst my self pity. :)

The point is if you hear something that you believe is worth posting but can't prove it as fact is it no longer of interest to the community?

And I don't really mind the comments on other forums, I am pretty thick skinned, but I reference them as an example that it seems very difficult these days to have a conversation on 40K forums without being trolled or flame baited.

[chapterhousestudios]

Keep doing what you are doing, but be mindful of the consequences.

If anyone could be called "sensitive" to such things as Internet Vitriol, it is me, of course my baby, my business I started up to support my family and myself are targets of such "trolling". You learn to accept that some individuals get a high off of the drama and badmouthing they do online.

I very much doubt these same person(s) would have the guts to do the same thing to someone in person and face the real life effects..

[Denzark]

StraightSilver

Sometimes (I generalise but from my experience) some of our international friends have trouble in translating English sarcasm, irony or subtlety. To avoid confusion, if you write a disclaimer such as:

***** Please be advised I am merely passing on RUMOUR and CONJECTURE as I thought it may be of interest to the gaming community. I am not offering a personal comment on the issue unless I specify otherwise and the information should be taken at face value - that is, as pure RUMOUR and CONJECTURE*****

Then even the most unsubtle should get the message without taking it personally and therefore negate any digs at you.

[JxKxR]

For what it's worth I enjoy reading rumors and the discussions that they spawn, and I ALWAYS bring my salt.

[Drew da Destroya]

I'd say keep posting them, but I also don't get myself involved in the arguments (er, discussions) that happen afterwards. I could see how it would be stressful to be the centerpoint of that, though.

The 40k rumor community was very spoiled for most of its life, as we'd know about new releases a year or more in advance. The Rumors were basically facts, and it's going to be a while before that attitude gets corrected, since most of the rumors these days are less set-in-stone, I guess.

[StraightSilver]

Cheers guys, if this week's taught me one thing it's that maybe I am a little naive where the internet is concerned. Maybe it's my age. :)

It's also taught me that people don't seem to be able to read between the lines (or maybe what is actaully written).

I think Denzark has it spot on, from now on I will have to put a disclaimer on! :)

But it's maybe also taught me that what I have up until now viewed as arrogance or rudeness is probably just people defending themselves against the mindless trollers, and that I shouldn't dismiss people on the value of their posts.

After all it's very easy to misinterprate people through text rather than being face to face, and it has made me appreciate that perhaps my opinions are not always valid as they are based on what I have read on the forums.

So I think I will limit my posts, but maybe won't stop posting altogether.

Admittedly though I really should be painting space marines right now rather than spending all night on the web! :)

[DarkLink]

It's always bugged me when idiots come on and are like "yeah, right, I bet you're making this up".

In all my time checking out rumors, the limited number of people who have sources of some sort have a pretty good track record. Not 100%, but that's because details change over the course of production or things get lost in translation. But you and others do a good job of disseminating information, and every time some know-it-all pops up blabbing on about how "that doesn't make sense, GW would never do that" I want to ask them what their evidence is to support their case or if they're the ones just making crap up.

I appreciate what you rumormongerers do for the community, and anyone who attacks you for doing us a favor can unplug their internet and hide under a rock.

[SotonShades]

Believe it or not I have actually been thinking the same thing today. While I'm not sure a separate thread is required for each, I would suggest titling the thread as "RUMOUR; Actual title of thread" for the kind of posts you tend to do Mr Silver, or "NEWS; Actual title of thread" for the posts eldargirl and DrLove42 often post regarding the likes of Forge World releases or chapterhousestudio's stuff and the like; anything that can be backed up by real evidence of something that is actually happenning or being released.

I enjoy reading the rumours that we get here. I really don't expect 99% of them to come true and find it quite humerous as to quite how angry many of our fellow BoLSers get regarding some of them. Equally, it can be frustrating when people take them as gospal and use them as evidence to support their own arguments of what will happen in other threads, with rumours feeding rumours. Still, maybe that's just my point of view.

Either way, keep it coming. Trolls will troll, flamers will flame and those of us with (mostly) cool heads will continue to support you :)

[Bigred]

Hi StraightSilver, (and Welcome!)

My advice after living every day under the scrutiny of the BoLS readership is to "not sweat the small stuff".

My general rules for rumors are:

1) Rumors are fun - post what you have
2) Tell the truth as you understand it (neighter embellish, nor sell the rumors short)
3) Don't worry if its 100% correct - its rumors after all. If people want 100% correct, they can buy the codex.
4) Mark your rumors as rumors - as long as you clearly state "RUMORS" don't worry if anyone else has the level of reading comprehension to understand what that implies. That's up to the readers, not you.

In short, have fun, spread around some gossip (clearly labeled as such), and don't look back. There is always more cool stuff on the horizon!

-Larry

[daboarder]

I wouldn't stress mate, this is an internet community so mostly what people type is going to be knee jerk reaction almost by definition. You've offered a viable suggestion and I would just ignore those who are rude.

[eldargal]

It can be tough passing on rumours, even for someone like me who doesn't even start them that often. Not so much here on the Lounge though. I don't think anyone has intended to be rude to you personally StraightSilver, I certainly haven't.:) I've a lot of respect for you, I just think in this specific case it is not plausible. Staff gossip, alcohol and a bit of righteous indignation of a company that perceive as copying them etc.

[ddsa86]

You should post what you want and whenever you want to. The Internet is about sharing information and the Internet and gaming community will always have that lot of people who always come at you with a less then positive attitude and will most likely post negative things against you when they disagree with your posts. With so little information coming out these days, I would encourage everyone to keep posting tidbits regardless if they are authenticated or not. Just make sure that you post it as a rumor and not fact. What makes my day is trolling for those little tidbits and coming up with my own conclusions on whether or not they are true or false. At a minimum, some of those rumors can keep you going especially when you are a 40k player / hobbyist who has a dated codex (BT for me).....

[wittdooley]

I disagree with everyone. I think you should, occassionally, just absolutely make stuff up. Think about it. you're a fairly trusted source. I would love to see people flip their shyt if you posted a rumour like this:


6th Ed. is going to introduce a type of horde attack simliar to 8th edition fantasy. Essentially, units with the HORDE USR can attack through one level of friendly models. Effectively, a swarm of 30 gaunts with the HORDE ability can surround a smaller unit and then actually receive attacks that benefit from their superior size.

or


6th ed will introduce an all new vehicle damage chart, rolled using 2d6 instead of 1d6. The rumour indicates that there will be more no effect results for vehicles, but also alludes to some really devestating consequences for poor rolls.

Hopefully you're more creative than me, but I think it would be hilarious if one of the more reliable rumourmongers did this from time-to-time for S's & G's.

[Old_Paladin]

I disagree with everyone. I think you should, occassionally, just absolutely make stuff up. Think about it. you're a fairly trusted source. I would love to see people flip their shyt...
Hopefully you're more creative than me, but I think it would be hilarious if one of the more reliable rumourmongers did this from time-to-time for S's & G's.

It would be even funnier if GW themselves did this (they do it on April 1st anyways).
They are trying to be so closed-lipped; tossing out the occasional fib would probably get people off their back (although a lot more leaks from them would be preferred).

[StraightSilver]

Cheers everybody, it's good to know that rumours are appreciated, but it has certainly taught me a thing or too.

The first thing is to precede any rumours with "RUMOUR": and to make it absolutely clear when something should be treated as such, even if you think you might have done.

But the other thing that has come out of all this for me is just how emotive a subject like 40K can be, which I hadn't realised until now.

Reading back through some of my posts I realise now that they could be considered by some to be inflammatory, and that's because I am passionate about my hobby but then so is everybody else.

It's also very easy to be biassed without even realising it. I will admit to a bias towards GW because that is where most of my influence comes from, but I can now accept that other people may be biassed in other ways, but shouldn't judge people on that.

So I suppose the point of this thread wasn't meant to be guaging people's opinion of me, but about how rumours are perceived and accepted, and how better to present them to the community.

There is also the cautionary tale that rumours have consequences, especially when two opposing parties are concerned, in this case GW and CHS.

So if you are going to post a rumour think of the consequences to both parties.

I will admit that my opinion towards CHS may have been biassed because of my long standing with GW, but over the last few days my opinions have changed considerably as I realise that it is all too easy to judge somebody on the basis of their activity on forums which also isn't fair.

And then there is also the possibilty that if you hear some juicy gossip from a GW staffer consider that they may get into trouble if you aren't circumspect about posting it.

I guess it's all a learning process.

The lesson I have learned from all this, and that I hope others posting rumours can acknowledge is that yes rumours should be reported. But like all good reporters you should always try to be objective, take into account both sides of the story, and consider the consequences of what you might be writing. Stay neutral, stay as accurate as you can and be aware that people can be very passionate about this sort of thing.

In terms of taking flak too, I must admit that I was possibly being overly sensitive, but that's something else I would advise other rumour posters, is learn to be thick skinned.

@ Eldargal: You have never been in any way rude, and I have never thought for a minute you were having a dig. I respect your opinion and you have always argued in a mature way, and have always been polite. I accept that in this instance that you have your doubts about what I posted, but that's not a problem at all. :)

I appreciate that not every body will agree and that's kind of the point of posting these things, to debate rumours and glean the truths from them.

But surely it's more productive to do that in a mature way, rather than disparaging somebody's character? I have been essentially labelled as an egostistical, lying, drunk working in the pocket of GW as some sort of secret agent..... :cool:

I have also received some rather unleasant PMs on other forums too, which have been reported but I feel were totally unnecessary.

I must admit though they were mainly on "another forum" who shall graciously remain anonymous, but I haven't had anything like that here.

I enjoy healthy debate, and will always admit when I am wrong. When I am passing on a rumour it is obviously already second hand, I do not pass on my own opinions or ideas and state them as a rumour as has been suggested.

So the crux is yes rumours should be put out there in a sensible, unbiassed way, but people responding to those rumours should discuss them in a mature and respectful way.

Or as somebody once said "why can't we all just get along?" :)

EDIT: And I also like the idea of putting out wild and crazy fake rumours! Maybe not just yet though... :)

[Drunkencorgimaster]

StraightSilver
Sometimes (I generalise but from my experience) some of our international friends have trouble in translating English sarcasm, irony or subtlety.

I agree and would add that some people apparently do not understand the very definition of the word "rumor."