Eldar Phantom Titan - IA2 - Second Edition

[Ghost of War]

So I just opened this badboy..

They redid the rules on this monster. Not sure anyone will ever let me play it without vortex missiles and grenades now. Its IMHO extremely OP. I cant imagine a Warlord beating it now (without mentioned Vortex Missiles)

p126.
ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDs
Everytime a hit is scored against an Eldar Titan that moved in the previous turn, the Eldar player rolls a dice. On a result of a 4 or more, the hit is discarded. If a Titan did not move it in the previous turn, it does not get this holo field save.

Entries on models with a titan holofield.

ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS: As long a sa vehicle moved in the previous turn, it gains a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks.

So take these two items.

The Phantom got an overhaul.

A. Phantom Starcanon went up to 4 shots
B. You can no longer ignore stunned and move it to gun shaken and get the 4+ save. Not the steersman empowers a 3+ save vs Stunned, and Gun Shaken (like the Lynx)
C. See below.

IMPROVED ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS
If the titan has not moved.. it has a 4+ inv
IF the titan moved at all.. that save becomes a 3+ invuln save
Also.. if something goes into hand to hand vs a Phantom titan that has moved (and its not a Gargant or enempy super heavy walker) it hits the Eldar titan on 6s.

So basically...

You shoot it 10 times.. 5 are ignored on simple odds

Maybe two crack the AV13? Which there is a 3+ inv save because it moved

You stun the driver? shake a gun? 3+ save via the steersman

You blow up a gun? 4+ gun crew save.

Understandably my friends are appauled. Makes me a little sad as I spent 4 months building and painting this thing.

[eldargal]

Huzzah, finally Eldar get something truly fearsome.:)

[Night System]

Isn't it like 2500 points though? you kind of expect it to be that tough for those points.

Also it only has 2 main guns, so in theory can only effect 2 units a turn, unlike a warlords 4 units a turn.

[DrLove42]

Firstly you're wrong with the Holofields. Holofields don't stack, the FW rules designers told me so in person. So no 4+ to avoid, the 3+ invulnerable. You just get 1 save...the 3+ if moved, or the stationariy 4+


As opposed to a warlord titan which; The first 6 shots that roll high enough to do damge are ignored completly. Then at the end of each turn it rolls 7-9 dice for its structure points and gets 1/3 of them back everytime.

Then it has 4 massive guns all with the 4+ saves. It has better armour, all round. I'd take the option of having 4 multiple SD 10" every time. A reaver can have 9 Strength D weapons for nearly half the cost.

If it gets immobilised it doesn't care. Damage control? Easy.If the Eldar get immobilised its much more screwed

Overall don't count a Warlord or a reaver down agaisnt it. They're hard as nails

But the Phantom is more so...just not as hard as you think cos holofields don't stack!

And your friends can be appauled. Next time they put down a Vendetta or Storm Raven as a flier slap them. They're half the price of Eldar aircraft and are better at nearly everything.

The same goes for AA...Hydra vs Firestorm? Half the price and get 4 twinlinked S7 shots on two different guns against 6 S6 twinlinked? And don't get me started on Manticores....and all the other majorly bent stuff nearly everyother army has in Apoc. Give the Eldar one thing thats good....at that cost theres not going to be many of them out there

[eldargal]

Does the Phantoms D-Cannons still ignore void shields? Because if so then keep it moving and it ill probably kill a Warlord. Even with the current rules my ProxyPhantom tended to come out ahead against Warlords more often than not.

Are the rules for the Phantom CCW in the book? I wish my copy would arrive, slowest delviery from FW ever.:(

[Ghost of War]

DrLove.

I would be inclined to agree with you. But I have the final print of the book on my lap right now.

So.. I don't

And our flyers are sick as hell now.

Holofield ignores 50% of the hits and then on the entry for Titan Holofield via the planes dat sheers.. it also grants a 4+ inv save vs damage

two saves.. different phases.. totally legal - and mean.

The Vampire Hunter just became a true beast.

[Duke]

Eldargal is right. I also play tested my Phantom against a Warlord and my Phantom won more often than not. I used two D-Cannons.

Duke

[Ghost of War]

Eldargal (heart!)

Yep..

the D-can ignores fields still.

the CCW rules are in.. +3 attacks, standard titan close combat weapon (+2 damage on chart) and comes with a starcanon mounted on the side.. S6 Heavy4 ap2

[eldargal]

In that case:

Phantom > Warlord.

One hundred points more.

One hundred percent sexier.

:rolleyes:

Can someone tell me if the CCW is good? My brain is refusing to cooperate.

[DrLove42]

TCCW is good....but have to sacrifice one of the guns to get it. And thats a high cost to pay for a slight increase in close combat against big stuff. Although thanks to the beefyness of the rules, gargantuan creatures are the only thing that scares me against it in CC, cos they ignore the "only hit on 6's" thin. So if you face a lot of Giant Deamons or Bio-titans....might be worth droppping the cobra cannon for it


DrLove.

I would be inclined to agree with you. But I have the final print of the book on my lap right now.

So.. I don't



Its true. I don't have the book yet, mine was dispathced this morning


And our flyers are sick as hell now.

Holofield ignores 50% of the hits and then on the entry for Titan Holofield via the planes dat sheers.. it also grants a 4+ inv save vs damage

two saves.. different phases.. totally legal - and mean.


I Specifically asked Alan Bligh (the guy who writes the rules) if holofields stack on fliers or tanks with the flat out save. He said no

Trust me...I wish they did. And we will probably still house rule it that they do.

But FW's official line is they don't.

(Also asked him if AP1 and Strength D stacked on the damage table - As in the Sunstorm Sqn. They don't)

Eldar fliers are good....but compare a Nightwing to a Valk. 275pts to about 130pt. 2 S8 Lance shots and 6 Cannon shots against 3 twinlinked S9 shots. Av 10 against av 12. Both get a 4+ save if counting as a flier, the only time the eldar does and Valk doesn't is against a Hydra.

Nightwing vs Razorwing. 275 points vs 150-200pts. AV 10 alround. 2 lances and 6 cannon shots, vs 2 lances and 6 cannon shots AND 4 missiles. One with a 4+ save, other with a 5+ save.

Eldar fliers are seriously hurting these days. Kings of 4th ed rules Apoc, but suffering in a world of 5th ed plastic codex entry fliers.

Also...


. I used two D-Cannons.

Duke

Can you sue two D cannons? I thought it was one of each? Again...don't have the rules on me yet...

[Defenestratus]

That CCW has the same rules as the regular titan CCW except that its got a dumb starcannon on it. Woopdee.

I agree that the phantom is beastly. It should be. Sadly it still gets ROFLstomped by my friend Imperator/Emperor titan that launches over 24 Str D pie plates a turn. Oh well, at least it will last longer than half a shooting phase now! :P

I have to disagree about the Vampire though. Its still overcosted crap. If what DrLove says is true, that the designers just intend the holofields to give you the 4+ save against Hydras, then its the most overcosted, underperforming piece of wargear crap in the entire 40k universe. It makes my vamp hunter sadface.

However, my group had decided - even before this book came out, that the holofield work against hits, then the flyer 4+ cover save works against penetrations/glances so they are worth a damn.

We also determined that AP1 and Str D +1 on the damage charts stack since there's no other difference between AP2 and AP1 otherwise and if it didn't stack then it should just be AP2 instead

Ghost, don't worry, I'm working on turning Sean around on playing against your Phantom. He's got that reaver and it can put up a decent fight.

(BTW a real good way to get rid of those peksy void shields is to use that ghost walker formation with 10 war walkers with all scatter lasers. Pop em up in front of the Titan, pewpewpew... all the void shields are gone. Thats how I deal with the imperator - followed up by 20 fire dragons who barely get the job done)

[Ghost of War]

Once again DrLove.. wait till you get the book

the holofield states in black and white.. negates hits. On the entry for the flyer, it states it also gets a 4+ inv against damage delt

AP1 and Destoryer are black and white states in multiple places they that DO NOT stack .. so that one is put the bed. So yes your righ tthere.

They literally took the arguement your stating.. the eldar fields arguement that is.. and spelled it out in black and white plain english.

[DrLove42]

This is the ultimate RAW vs RAI here

We have RAW vs REATDMTTBSBHIPCI (Rules Exactly As The Devloper Meant Them To Be, Said By Him, In Person Confirming It)

Again I don't have the rule book.

But the guy who wrote the rules, when asked, specifically about about this exact thing, in person said they don't stack. I don't see how this can be debated.

And again...i don't have any of the books on me. The Apoc book and Imp Armour Apoc 1 were written in the dying days of 4th ed. Flat out fliers didn't have saves. They downgraded all hits to glancing. the 4+ was godly. Now everyone gets it as a cover save. One of the biggest GW rules philosophies is that models can only have 1 save (excluding FNP)

Trust me - I wish you were right. I wish GW would give them two saves. But as it stands they don't according to REATDMTTBSBHIPCI

[Ghost of War]

But the guy who wrote the rules, when asked, specifically about about this exact thing, in person said they don't stack. I don't see how this can be debated.


Because it wouldnt stand up in any gaming circle when the question comes up. Your word while it may be well and good - equates to what most people hear s "a local redshirt told me xxxxxxx"

And its not RAW vs RAWEREAFDAFDSFGDS - get the final print of the book and just read it :P

We can debate till hell freezes over once we both have the final print material - until then its impotent.

-the unfortunate simple fact is to get pretty much anyone to play against a Phantom who does not own a Warlord.. we will likely have to play the fields exactly how your stating them. With a couple other nerfs to how its written up as is.

[SotonShades]

p126.
ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDs
Everytime a hit is scored against an Eldar Titan that moved in the previous turn, the Eldar player rolls a dice. On a result of a 4 or more, the hit is discarded. If a Titan did not move it in the previous turn, it does not get this holo field save.

Entries on models with a titan holofield.

ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS: As long a sa vehicle moved in the previous turn, it gains a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks.

.................................................. .................................................. ..


IMPROVED ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS
If the titan has not moved.. it has a 4+ inv
IF the titan moved at all.. that save becomes a 3+ invuln save
Also.. if something goes into hand to hand vs a Phantom titan that has moved (and its not a Gargant or enempy super heavy walker) it hits the Eldar titan on 6s.



2 questions (more for me to get things straight in my own mind than anything);

Firstly, are both deffinitions of ETHs in the same book? When that happens in GW and FW books, rules in a unit entry trump rules in the codex/book trump rules in the BRB. This would suggest, to me, that if the vehicle is simply listed as having Eldar Titan Holofields, they discard hits against them on a 4+ if they moved in the previous turn. However, if in their unit entry they have the second definition saying they they get a 4+ invulnerable save if they moved, they only get a 4+ invulnerable save if they moved and not ignore hits on a 4+ and then get a 4+ invulnerable save. This works whether it is titans or flyers. For the flyers, you don't get an invulnerable save AND a cover save at any point in 40k. Depending on if they have the deffinition in their entry saying you can ignore hits, then you would potentially ignore the hit and then get the cover save.

Next, does the Phantom have Eldar Titan Holofields (ETHs) or Improved Eldar Titan Holofields (IETHs)? If it only had the later, then only that deffinitition applies; granting a 4+ invulnerable save, or 3+ if it moved in the previous movement phase. The previous point becomes completely invalid as it doesn't have ETHs. Their rules, whichever deffinition or combination you are using, are completely replaced.


BRB says that vehicles take cover saves when they take a glancing or penetrating hit (Pg 62, 1st Column, last but 2 paragraph), so the vehicles would still get their Primary Weapon saves (which are taken after the damage table roll has been made, so obviously after the precious cover/invulnerable saves have been taken) as an exception to only getting a single save against an attack, more akin to a FNP save.

[Gotthammer]

There are Eldar Titan Holofields (which the Phantom doesn't have), with a 4+ 'discard'/Invulnerable if you moved, and Enhanced Eldar Titan Holofields (which the Phantom has) with a 4+ invulnerable all the time, 3++ if you move.

So regardless of stacking, the Phantom only has one of those pieces of equipment, so would only get one save.


As it happens I did a mock battle with the Phantom's beta rules against a Warlord (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2011/04/arena-of-death-phantom-vs-warlord.html). It's power is partly dependant on distance, loadouts, and whether you stack StrD and AP1.
The results would be much different now with the improvement to Spirit Guides and the Invuln save, so I think they'd still be evenly matched now even without AP1/StrD stacking.

[eldargal]

I didn't think the Imperator Titan had official rules yet? Also the Phantom has always been the match for Warlords going back to Epic, not the Emperor so I wouldn't expect it to take down one of those on its own.

I'm not sure of the issue with holofield saves, a save which negates hits and then another save against damage rolls aren't the same as getting two saves against hits as you would with flat out + holo fields? Its early in the morning so perhaps I'm just misreading something.:rolleyes:

[Gir]

I didn't think the Imperator Titan had official rules yet?

GW website. That sucker is 4000pts.

[eldargal]

Oh, must have missed it scrolling through the two hundred odd Imperium datasheets to find the four Eldar ones.:rolleyes:

Still, I wouldn't expect a Phantom to go toe to toe with a Emperor class titan and survive so I'm ok with that. I wish my copy would arrive, it was dispatched on the 29th and people in other countries are getting theirs before me.:( Bloody Royal Mail.

Also my group houseruled AP1 and D to stack regardless of what FW said because we thought it was silly otherwise.

[Ghost of War]

Well yeah we did at my club as well, why even have AP on a destroyer weapon? It's silly.

But.. then again we also realized that the Eldar really had most of the D, and really the only ap1 D (in our club).. so we probally wont make them stack going forward.

Also the Eldar now have the big new kid on the block so I need to throw a few bones now and then to ensure I get to use the big toy

[DrLove42]

Our house rules say anything thats official can be used. So anything in a GW book, WD, IA or a GW offical data sheet can be used. You only need permission to use a unregistered thing, or something that is official, but not a real model
(AKA No this cardboard box is an Imperator!)

So if they say you cna't use the model you paid £500 for show the finger :P. Its Apoc, its about fun and you never complained about that Reaver....

[eldargal]

Yup, when I was proxying the Phantom I got some complaints from some of the more competitive players in the group. Pointed out the they are still far, far ahead of Eldar in terms of strong FW love and they can't complain now just because Eldar have something genuinely fearsome.

I have to admit rolling two 5s for my Double D-Cannon structure points when I shot a Reaver once didn't help things. Teehee.

[eldargal]

Well my copy just arrived, at last.:)

The Phantom gets a 4++ save against incoming attacks, 3++ if it moves, from holofields and ignores Driver Shaken and Gun Crew Stunned results on a 3+ with Spirit Guides. They must stack as the spirit guide is an ability to discard damage results, not a save against them.

[DrLove42]

My copy turned up last week, but missed the postie, collected this afternoon

The Phantom's 3+ save is if it moved this turn or the previous turn. So unlike the rest of the eldar vehicles it doesnm't have to constantly move to stay alive. He can move on alternate turns....kinda cool

Also ....now i've got my copy...coming back to the debate of if the Eldar aircraft are too expensive. Compare the Nightwing to the new rules for the DE Raven strike fighter. Both AV 10 all round. Both BS4. Both are fliers, both have 2 lances.

The new rules for the DE give it the option of a 5+ invuln in addition to its 4+ flat out. In addition its cannon fire 10 shots, not 2 firing 6 in total. It also has a rule making its deepstrike more accurate, somehting that doesn't really affect fliers.

And somehow the DE flier is only 125pts, compared to the 285pts that the Nightwing is. For what is virtually exactly the same.

The only thing the Eldar has that the DE doesn't is AA mounts on its cannon, a 1 better save against a Hydra and a smaller minimum move. Are thoses things really worth 160 points? I could get another DE plane for that!

Still want to say the Nightwings aren't overpriced?

[eldargal]

Well I use Nightwings only for AA, so in that sense they are superior to the Raven as they are really good AA. The Nightwing also has the advantage of having a model that doesn't look like utter rubbish.:)

Also it isn't just Eldar stuff that is overpriced, I noticed a lot of IG tanks that cost twice the codex version but are only marginally more effective.

[Defenestratus]

Well I use Nightwings only for AA, so in that sense they are superior to the Raven as they are really good AA.

Then compare the phoenix to the Storm Raven.

Both are aircraft, both are supposedly ground attack roles. However, one of them has a 350 point price tag and one of them has better guns, a transport capacity, better armor and improved melta resistance but costs 150 points LESS.

The former can turn tightly and use some of its guns to shoot at other planes (ineffectively usually since they are all AV12 now).

[DrLove42]

Not to mention hover mode and the ability to drop a dreadnaught right into combat...

[Defenestratus]

Not to mention hover mode and the ability to drop a dreadnaught right into combat...

Oh yes - sorry.

Having both Apoc sized Eldar and Blood Angel armies - I can say that the Stormravens are worth every single penny in apoc.

The only reason why my opponents hate my Eldar fliers is because I field 5 of them. Otherwise they would get ignored (as they were when there was only 1 of them)

[Regnir]

I just took some time to crack open my copy. The below is wrong. I have been keeping quiet because I play locally with GOW.

IA apocalypse introduces a new piece of vehicle wargear that the Phantom has. It is called "Enhanced Eldar Titan Holo Fields" and grants a 4+ invulnerable if stationary, a 3+ invulnerable if it moves, and CC attacks from non titans/gargantuans need a 6 to hit it.

The Revenant has a pieces of vehicle war gear called "Elar Titan Holo Field" that ignores hits on a 4+.

"Eldar Titan Holo Field" and "Enhanced Eldar Titan Holo Field" are different vehicle war gear with different names. The new book, in the back, specifically calls out Eldar Titan Holo Fields by name. Even though the names are similar, they are not the same, nor does the rules for "enhanced Eldar Titan holo fields" state that "in addition to the normal Elar Titan holo field rules, you get x y and z".

I see this as "your phantom does NOT ignore hits on a 4+ and then takes a further invulnerable save" because the Phantom does not have "Eldar Titan holo fields". It has the enhanced version. Also, I see the Eldar Titan Holofield entry on page 127 or whatever as a replacement to the rule for wargear by the same name printed in earlier books. So the Revenant would follow the rule on 127 instead of it's entry. It would not follow both rules. It would have only been less confusing if they had both been printed in USR like format on page 127.

I see this as related to the old claim that the Hierophant would get. 3+ invulnerable save because of the Warp Field Psychic Power which no longer exists as a psychic power. Neither is particularly confusing to me.


So I just opened this badboy..

They redid the rules on this monster. Not sure anyone will ever let me play it without vortex missiles and grenades now. Its IMHO extremely OP. I cant imagine a Warlord beating it now (without mentioned Vortex Missiles)

p126.
ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDs
Everytime a hit is scored against an Eldar Titan that moved in the previous turn, the Eldar player rolls a dice. On a result of a 4 or more, the hit is discarded. If a Titan did not move it in the previous turn, it does not get this holo field save.

Entries on models with a titan holofield.

ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS: As long a sa vehicle moved in the previous turn, it gains a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks.

So take these two items.

The Phantom got an overhaul.

A. Phantom Starcanon went up to 4 shots
B. You can no longer ignore stunned and move it to gun shaken and get the 4+ save. Not the steersman empowers a 3+ save vs Stunned, and Gun Shaken (like the Lynx)
C. See below.

IMPROVED ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS
If the titan has not moved.. it has a 4+ inv
IF the titan moved at all.. that save becomes a 3+ invuln save
Also.. if something goes into hand to hand vs a Phantom titan that has moved (and its not a Gargant or enempy super heavy walker) it hits the Eldar titan on 6s.

So basically...

You shoot it 10 times.. 5 are ignored on simple odds

Maybe two crack the AV13? Which there is a 3+ inv save because it moved

You stun the driver? shake a gun? 3+ save via the steersman

You blow up a gun? 4+ gun crew save.

Understandably my friends are appauled. Makes me a little sad as I spent 4 months building and painting this thing.