Thinking of starting a HE army...

[Lord Azaghul]

Yes even after all my ANTI -GW ranting.

I snagged my 8th ed hardcover rule set back from a friend who's had it for about 6 months now...in fact the last time I picked up a gw fantasy model was about a year ago, and probably a bit longer.

I decided that GW has a very lovely aesthetic - visually they have created a few beautiful/visual realm.

Ironically enough it was looking into 'other' fantasy games that caused me to pick up my GW books again.

I order the Kings of War 2nd edition rules set - Parts of it I like, parts I don't, overall I feel its too simplistic, almost a WIP so to speak. But its still kind of fun, and very light - and I do appreciate that a lot.

8th ed really only has 2 or 3 solid problems (shooting nerf and magic OP) - and it is the tourny scene that really make it worse then it should be.

HOWEVER - I firmly believe GW is massively overprice, and since I have no intention of playing in any GW run tournies ( I find the concept of Ard Boyz offensive, and at odds with a 'gentlemanly' game)
- I'm going to buy mostly mantic models. That set are just so much more affordable. I'm effectively buying 2 mantic HE battalions. Which is somewhere around 100 models and 2 warmachines - for about 80 bucks (yes that is well below mantic retail too)

In turn I do still believe that GW has 'nicer' models then mantic, but I'd like to see mantic develop better kits in the future - hence my support - but I want to see GW stick around (I've already given them plenty of support) - I just don't think the models are worth anywhere near what GW demands.

I still have a few qualms with GW - mainly HOW they release armies and updates. But maybe after a year or so of a WHFB hiatus, I'm ready to try it again - if it doesn't work out - well then I can use my GW dwarves and my mantic Elves for some nice saturday afternoon KoW gaming.

[wittdooley]

Do you actually like how the mantic elves look? You went on and on about the GW aesthetic being better, so I'm just a touch confused.

[Lord Azaghul]

Do you actually like how the mantic elves look? You went on and on about the GW aesthetic being better, so I'm just a touch confused.

Yeah - I noticed that while writing it. :confused:

Fair question!

The GW aesthetic IS better - but its more then I'm willing to pay for.

When I first saw the mantic elves they were the one army that I actually DID like. I found the dwarves a little too boxy. I did like the mantic undead - I like the uniquely european feel that they have.

I already have about 8k in GW dwarves (first army) so I didn't really want to 'mix' looks with them.

Honestly I wish I felt comfortable buying the same amount of GW models - the HE models are fantastic - but to me - the price is the point. I'm basicly getting 2x the models for half the price with mantic. I'm ok with that.

I'm hoping to find a love of WHFB again. I used to be a die hard for that game. At one point or another I"ve owned about half the armies in the system (never HE though)

I just wanted something fun to build - quick to paint up - and if it ends up not working I'm NOT out 250$

And I also think I'm still not ready to buy gw products again, and I'm hoping mantic games can step it up eventually.

Basically I"m to the point where I"m willing to give GW games another try, thanks to their OVERALL aesthetic - but im not to the point when I want to pay those prices (again).

And mantic on the other hand - I think they are off to a reasonable start. I want to see them continue to develop there rules/models. I'm willing to them a shot/my money.

The HE looked like an opportunity for me to give both a shot.

[wittdooley]

Have you considered trying to get the Island of Blood Elves? They're part of the boxed set, so they should be had significantly cheaper. I'm seeing about $35 as the average cost for the Elves part of that set (that'll give you rougly 40 models, with hero choices. I know the Sea Guard and Sword Masters are both highly thought of in terms of feasibility for an army.

I've got the army book at home, and if you'd like I'd happily price an army using the Island of Blood for you. I'd hate for you to spend a similar amount for models you like less if you can utilize those Island of Blood models!

[Lord Azaghul]

Appreciate the offer, and I do have plenty of access to IoB, my local store was actually trying to clearance them out a while back for about 60$ a piece...I actually DO want to support mantic at this time.
I do want to see for myself the quality of these mantic models (I still haven't built them)

Consider it my happy medium. GW has the better ruleset, mantic has the more reasonably prices models.
Aside from the occasional character - GW prices just aren't a road I wish to go down again.


I just believe that GW models have gotten too expensive, I'd rather not endorse those high cost by purchases them.

And this comes from someone who in the past has spend thousands of dollars on GW products. (a side from my dwarves I am also sitting of around 10k of IG - and about 3k of that is Tallarn :P ). I've cleared out entire armies because I just never got around to painting them...

[wittdooley]

Are you sure? I just hate those Mantic Elves so darn much.... Support their undead or even their Orks... just not those awful elves :) Hhahaha.

[Lord Azaghul]

Are you sure? I just hate those Mantic Elves so darn much.... Support their undead or even their Orks... just not those awful elves :) Hhahaha.


Really? I like the elves -and yes thir orcs are great - but I didn't like the new O&G book (actually sold my Greeny army when it dropped)

If I makes you feel a little better I probably will be using GW models for my casters at least! I'm still trying to find an excuse to buy any finecast model :cool:

[Multigeneral]

Yes even after all my ANTI -GW ranting.

8th ed really only has 2 or 3 solid problems (shooting nerf and magic OP) - and it is the tourny scene that really make it worse then it should be.

Pardon my ignorance but what shooting nerf are you refering to?

[Lord Azaghul]

Pardon my ignorance but what shooting nerf are you refering to?


Allow me to direct you here:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=17599

[Multigeneral]

Allow me to direct you here:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=17599

Ahh, I see. I see that as more of a penalty for the "lesser" races. :p The shooting for Elves (of all verieties) is still superior to those of the other races in 8th. Throw in the fact that everyone gets gets to shoot in an extra rank and the Volley Fire rule for thier longbows and Elves can lay down the smackass at range. Yes, it does take more shots to get the same work done, but BS4 Elves can definatly get it done. Or maybe I'm just biased, being a WE player and all.

[Lord Azaghul]

Ahh, I see. I see that as more of a penalty for the "lesser" races. :p The shooting for Elves (of all verieties) is still superior to those of the other races in 8th. Throw in the fact that everyone gets gets to shoot in an extra rank and the Volley Fire rule for thier longbows and Elves can lay down the smackass at range. Yes, it does take more shots to get the same work done, but BS4 Elves can definatly get it done. Or maybe I'm just biased, being a WE player and all.

I'm kind of thinking of building the force along those lines.

There is ALOT of augement spells out there that allow for +1 wounding with bows...given the nice elvish BS.
The sets i've picked up come with plenty of options, and bolt thrower (I do like the GW BT better - so I may pick those up)
Lots of spearman, seaguard and bowman seem like a good group to build the force around - and of course magic - lots of magic. I'm going for volume here!

That leaves me needing something to hunt WM's and distract large beasties. I may want to look at fast cav for that.

[Multigeneral]

Fast cav are the answer I think. They truly shine in 8th. Especially the shooty kind since they can march and still shoot. and the Feigned Flight rule is very useful. I have had limited success with Great Eagles. They work well enough against the isolated war machine and small flanking or support units (like small units of fast cav trying to get around your flank) but being one model units they really can't take any kind of serious attention and monsters are right out. Not being to farmiliar with the HE book, how about some skirmisking archers for warmachine killing duty? Shadow warriors maybe?.

[Lord Azaghul]

Fast cav are the answer I think. They truly shine in 8th. Especially the shooty kind since they can march and still shoot. and the Feigned Flight rule is very useful. I have had limited success with Great Eagles. They work well enough against the isolated war machine and small flanking or support units (like small units of fast cav trying to get around your flank) but being one model units they really can't take any kind of serious attention and monsters are right out. Not being to farmiliar with the HE book, how about some skirmisking archers for warmachine killing duty? Shadow warriors maybe?.

I'm trying to recall: it was either shadow warriors or the WE equivalent - but one of those was REALLY overprice and did next to nothing, and the other was beyond awesome

I'll need to pick up the HE AB before I make any more purchases. I know mantic has some nice looking skirmish/scout elves - and I know the can find the reaver scouts pretty cheap thanks to IoB - but I want continuity - so some converting may be involved

[Multigeneral]

Well, however you decide, welcome to the pionty eared side!! We have cookies!!! (+ 1 internet to anyone who makes the elven cookie connection) :cool:

[Lord Azaghul]

Well, however you decide, welcome to the pionty eared side!! We have cookies!!! (+ 1 internet to anyone who makes the elven cookie connection) :cool:

I'm hoping not to see a 'keebler' army

lol - thanks, I thought that was just the dark side!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Very curious that you think the models cost too much. They really don't. Especially in the secondary market, I've seen $500+ go for around $150-$200 USD even less in some cases. GW has been around for ever, 1970s forever. Unless you just want some old our out of print/production models you're not really spending too much money on it. The only real over pricing that GW has is their paint and washes selections 3.97 before taxes for something that dries up within 2 years and very low on volume along side their $16 primers and glues etc...THAT is where they hit you in the ole coin purse (pun intended). $35 for a unit of 16 core isn't that bad, especially with the extra bits that can be turned around and sold in the secondary market, same thing with blisters being $13-$20 for a single model; you turn around and do a stellar job on that model and decide to sell it; in the secondary market you can easily double up on your profit...

I even see people buy entire regiments just to turn around and sell them as bits and make a killing...

I've only been collecting for about a month now; and have well over 2,500 points and I've only spent about $300ish USD for all my goodies, combined with the Island of Blood battle chest and battalion box set respectively. I also don't have to spend another dime unless I want to just fluff up the unit count and make it into a Grand Army which I will eventually do.

But for now, War Hammer Fantasy is way cheaper than you're ranting about. So is 40k (especially if you buy/sell/trade through the secondary market). I just picked up the game, and there is no reason to complain about the prices in my eyes. eBay = best cheap armies eva.

Just my two cents.
-DBH

[Lord Azaghul]

Very curious that you think the models cost too much. They really don't. Especially in the secondary market, I've seen $500+ go for around $150-$200 USD even less in some cases. GW has been around for ever, 1970s forever. Unless you just want some old our out of print/production models you're not really spending too much money on it. .

But for now, War Hammer Fantasy is way cheaper than you're ranting about. So is 40k (especially if you buy/sell/trade through the secondary market). I just picked up the game, and there is no reason to complain about the prices in my eyes. eBay = best cheap armies eva.

Just my two cents.
-DBH

Where to start...where to start.
I've been playing/buying GW products for about 5 or 6 years now. I would say around 40% of my purchases have been in the secondary markets, and about 40% (NIB) from discount retailers. Leaving the Remaining 20% or so to be bought from my local store (non-gw)

When I first picked up my dwarf army book - it cost 19.99, currently the EXACT same book is 33$ - that my friend is a 60% price increase in just a few years.
Even compare starter sets. Battalion boxes cost 75$ back then, now they are 105$ a 29% increase - again: exact same product.
Warmachines: all these have increase in price roughly 10$ in 5 years. - that's between 25-30%. Exact same product.
Characters: I bought an engineer NIB: 7$ Now he's 14$ 100% price increase - same product.
Starter set are even worse. I split the prior starter set for a friend, that one was 60$ when first release. IOB is how much again?

That same thing is true of 40k. Used to be able to get 20 guardsmen for 35$ (this was only 2 years ago). You can now get 10 for 25$. That's a 30% price increase - same product.

True 2nd hand markets do exist - sometimes you can find good stuff, but my preferred method has always been the online discount markets ( I don't have to spend hours cleaning up someone else mess)
- where were NIB, typically 20-30% off, even those prices have gotten too rich for my tastes.

The overall cost of a GW army truly is about 40% more expensive then it was a few years ago. When GW raises there prices so does everyone else, effectively wiping out the 20% off I had on the exact same product yesterday. When the average army cost (retail) 500-700$ - then you add an annual 20% price increase... Um that's an extra 100$ an army...same product right? Yup. That's ok, I"m gonna get it online...wait now its 500$ online...but it was 400$ yesterday? Yeah not much of an incentive to still with the company.

Then you start to thing about how much that blister cost 3 years ago, 4 years ago...same blister

The biggest problem I have with a price increase is when it comes on an item that has not changed, not been improved, or has not increase in value. With the exception of say books and publications (and health insurance), everything else that I buy goes down in price the longer it is out on the market.

GW is just simply overpriced.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Yeah I bought my High Elf Army book because I really wanted it; and I was lucky I got it for only $22. It is $33 on the website, but I got mine at a deal at my locals. If you indeed don't feel like buying it; I'd suggest downloading it via .pdf or through torrent to your laptop or Nook/iPad. Or a bunch of other ways. So that's another almost $40 shaved from the army list.

Albeit, it doesn't sound very plausible, but another way you can save money is simply not buy another army or trade armies with people. I feel that if I ever want to buy the fluff heroes I will do so; but for the most part I think the Named characters are just too good to have any real fun with. I think Named characters will go in my special interests army where they only make VERY seldom guess appearences.

But I see where you are coming from. For someone who's been playing for as long as you have you have every right to be a bit frustrated with the price increases. Unfortunately those types of price increases happen all the time. Its just the way the market place works. But at the same time you should've understood that hobbies are pricey but remember delayed gratification almost always lets you appreciate your purchases much more. I feel as though it also compliments how you allocate your bits/extra pieces and what you do with customizing certain models that give you the extra bang for your buck. But like I said; I just started back in late September, and if I see a model I want; I first research it; and if I deem it worthy I'll save up for it. But there are a couple of pieces that I definitely got giddy over; others are just for fluffy show and I'll probably never actually field them. i.e. the Silver Helms, when I actually buy them or until they get put back into core units etc.

But I'm glad you're starting back up :D
-DBH

[NonComPoop]

The detail on the Mantic elves is nice and I like the design. My only problem with them is the scale. They appear to be 25mm and not 28 mm(heroic). When put side by side with GW models they look TINY! It would be hard to get a cohesive looking army by mixing Mantic and GW models together, in the end I would think it would look like a hodge podge of different races. My advice would be to stick entirely to one or the other for the whole army.

[Lord Azaghul]

The detail on the Mantic elves is nice and I like the design. My only problem with them is the scale. They appear to be 25mm and not 28 mm(heroic). When put side by side with GW models they look TINY! It would be hard to get a cohesive looking army by mixing Mantic and GW models together, in the end I would think it would look like a hodge podge of different races. My advice would be to stick entirely to one or the other for the whole army.

Good to know -thanks!

I've always prefered armies to have a cohesive look to them. I think having 2 different scales would REALLY bother me

[Lord Azaghul]

The detail on the Mantic elves is nice and I like the design. My only problem with them is the scale. They appear to be 25mm and not 28 mm(heroic). When put side by side with GW models they look TINY! It would be hard to get a cohesive looking army by mixing Mantic and GW models together, in the end I would think it would look like a hodge podge of different races. My advice would be to stick entirely to one or the other for the whole army.

Again - thanks for the heads up on this. Now that I have the models in my hands I can see the difference - definitely not heroic scale, but I still really like the models!