Ballistic skillz to shoot n kill!~

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So I'm a complete noob and only new to 8th edition (because its where I'm starting out playing). The general topic here is that I keep seeing all of these people on the forums saying that ballistic skill has been nerfed; and what not (/insert a whole lot of whinning and complaining from peeps) but I don't see it. If anything ballistic skills are very much the same as they've always been. And from the old veterans that I've talked to not a whole lot has really changed in Warhammer since they all stopped playing. If anything from what I understand 8th edition is a revamped older edition of 4th or so. This is all my speculation and from someone just starting so let's get started!

In all honesty everything I've talked to them about pretty much seems to be the same as 4th and a bit 5th edition. And reading the older rule books in conjuction with the new rulebook on magic and ballistic weapons, magic has basically stayed the same and BS have actually gotten better than all this nerfage I keep hearing about. Seige weapons are especially amazing now that they are able to measure before they shoot; and of course I'm not just talking about template seiges either. I mean long bows having a range of 30" and regular bows have a range of 24" which means they can just about go off from turn one if I read the rules correctly. So once again; where is the problem? I mean archers are now allowed to shoot in ranks of two rather than just the first rank, maybe their points have increased a little but nothing seriously wrong with they way I see it. From 4th to 8th ballistic skills are the same, only you get to messure before you shoot now; that's actually really much improved, and you can't shoot into CC anymore. But for some reason there are a ton of people out there who don't like the "change." I keep seeing all this mess and apparently they liked 7th edition better; but it seems more balanced to me. Most of the shooty armies I see do rather well in comparison to people who just take dredges of foot soldiers and calvary. So what gives? Is it just people complaining to complain or are they just not conforming to the 8th edition. I know you will have gamer turn-over and that I'm constantly seeing people switch from 40k to Fantasy and vice Versa.


For a new player coming in; if your army can supply archers; you use them cause you have such a great chance at forcing your opponent to come to you while you aggro them with ranged attacks of 10 to 20 and have an average of 4-6+ hits with 10 and 8-11+ hits on 20 with about 5 and 7 wounds per respectively. Which is usually an equivalent to 2 and 4 kills per shooting phase. To me that's still fleeting out numbers of kills for none in return and they can continue per round.

Is the problem that you can no longer shoot into Close combat? making the unit become "static" if the opponent forces you into CC? Or is it something more sinister?

[Lord Azaghul]

HOW shooting works hasn’t actually changes in a very long time. However the EFFECT shooting has IN GAME has.

BS shooting: AKA missile troops.
Part of the problem with 8th ed game dynamics actually ended up being the TLOS for terrain. So now you CAN see everything in your arc.
Not seeing through terrain actually allowed ‘lanes of fire’ to be created.
Lifting the movement restriction on terrain while adding TLOS mean ‘lanes of fire’ where actually removed.

In the prior edition soft and hard cover did exist, but really couldn't be used unless you were in a building.
Now, hard and soft cover is everywhere, that’s a -1 or -2 to hit. Add that to say, shooting at ‘long range’, ‘skirmishers’ or ‘moved and shooting’ and the modifiers add up really quick.
My my dwarf thunderers, firing at a salamander unit behind a wall is prolly hitting them at a -4. (long range(-1), Skimisher(-1), Hard cover (-2). For a strict D6 mechanic – that is harsh.

The new terrain rules: no one used walls in the prior ed because the restricted movement too much. Now – walls are everywhere – with additional modifiers. A smart player will place terrain/walls in locations useful to them – especially if they have less shooting then you.

Special rules: I mentioned the salamanders for a good reason. Its categorized as strange monsters/handler rule. IF I hit it (at a -4) then, t hanks to its additional special rules, I have to randomized between the skinks and the sal. Additonally, I roll to wound vs the sal toughness – not the skinks.
BUT thanks to the handler rules, the skinks can’t be shot at. So if I randomize onto a skink and roll a successful wound - no wound.

So I spend 2 turns shooting at a 100 pts unit, with a 150 pts unit – doing almost no damaged – because I can’t hit, or the wound randomization is not favorable. The amount of ‘good roll’ required to make your points back is not fitting of the game dynamics for most every other unit in the game.

Increase change distance: Most missile troops carry a heavier price (point cost) thanks to there functionality in prior editions, and were never designed to be good cc units. Thanks to charges being increase – the missile troop has 1 less turn to fire, most games of 7th ed saw 2-3 turns of shooting before they were engaged. Given there loss of functionality in 8th ed – the cc soldier is the better buy. Large units of shooters are more expensive and have less of an ingame effect that’s to 8th ed ruleset.

Warmachines: These got both better and worse in 8th ed. The loss of crew randomization actually HURTS wm durability, coupled with the ability to be poisoned, means tiny little units with multishotx2, poison, WILL kill your WM in 1 shot. In 7th WM could NOT be poisoned, and the crew existing actually gave you a ‘save’ chance.
Better: TLOS, and no partials. Units like cannons & Stone throwers are better – sort of. Stone throwers in 7th ed were s4, no armour save allowed. Now they are S3. Lots more hits, but you need 4+ & 5+ to wound most of the game – the enemy still get a save. Its practically a wash.
The better also includes: WM are still cheap, and can actually DO damage, where in 7th is was very hit or miss.
BS WM: almost worthless thanks the to what I described above for BS shooters.

And lastly: magic. These is enough anti-shooting major or toughness buffs or regen type spells that make shooting so less game changing then it used to be. What good does it do to kill 3-5 troops in a huge block of 40+ infantry, especially if there are going to popped back in? Or if the spell you get hit with increases there toughness by 2?

For the points of most shooting units you better off buying more killy troops…if your book has them.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Interesting. But isn't terrain randomized? So how is your opponent allowed to set it up wherever? I still see loads of lists that usually bring atleast one unit of archers/ranged infantry i.e. the elves, powderpire, dwarfs, and many others. I was just really curious about all of that. That being said, wouldn't it just be smarter to play around with movement reducing spells/items to the opponent etc?

Thanks for the invested knowledge, I'll definitely keep all of that in mind when I go to finish my high elves, unfortunately we only have the eagle claw, annnd 2 wounds at 100 points is very sad at current. Tough luck I guess; anyhow, I appreciate everything!

-DBH

[Lord Azaghul]

Interesting. But isn't terrain randomized? So how is your opponent allowed to set it up wherever?

-DBH

Type of terrain IS randomized - placement is not.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hmm interesting, I was under the impression that tournament terrain was all preset by a 3rd outside party. As far as PUGs go I could see that; but PUGs should really be competitive in my mind.

EDIT: PUGs shouldn't** really be competitive in my mind.

[Lord Azaghul]

Hmm interesting, I was under the impression that tournament terrain was all preset by a 3rd outside party. As far as PUGs go I could see that; but PUGs should really be competitive in my mind.

Yes tourney terrian SHOULD be set up by the TO. But in free play it rotates between players.

[Wildeybeast]

H
Warmachines: These got both better and worse in 8th ed. The loss of crew randomization actually HURTS wm durability, coupled with the ability to be poisoned, means tiny little units with multishotx2, poison, WILL kill your WM in 1 shot. In 7th WM could NOT be poisoned, and the crew existing actually gave you a ‘save’ chance.
Better: TLOS, and no partials. Units like cannons & Stone throwers are better – sort of. Stone throwers in 7th ed were s4, no armour save allowed. Now they are S3. Lots more hits, but you need 4+ & 5+ to wound most of the game – the enemy still get a save. Its practically a wash.
The better also includes: WM are still cheap, and can actually DO damage, where in 7th is was very hit or miss.
BS WM: almost worthless thanks the to what I described above for BS shooters.

Can I just add, that as an Emprie player, cannons are now AWESOME. Premeasuring means that my cannons are now deadly accurate, barring misfires. A cannon battery with an engineer allows you to obliterate enemy war machines, monsters, chariots etc. This won't win you the game on their own, but supported with the right units they can really tip the balance. Yes they are more vulnerable as you point out, but by the time units that can really hurt them get in range, they should have already done what you need them too.