Why are we obsessed with the Horus Heresy??

[Thornblood]

I would love to know peoples thoughts on this. The Horus Heresy is arguably the most exciting thing happening in the world of GW (or not happening, or, only happening in sister companies and fansites, but you get the picture).

I have many of my own theories but would like to hear your insights.

If i'm as organized as I think I am, I might update this top post with a summary. (Because I appreciate it when other people do that kind of thing).

:)

Update>>>

So here is a little summary. Im painting this summary with broad brush strokes and combining lots of opinions. Please give me more reasons, and please dont flame me to death. I am also including my opinions which i didnt voice in the thread (I think theres only one that wasnt covered, but was hinted at). The reasons overlap with the following one slightly. I put them in that order because i'm nice like that.

Why we think the Horus Heresy is so awesome

1.) Its the Lore. We Love 40k and fleshing out the background and explaining why things are the way they are is great. We love this because we are in fact a bit geeky (you really cant deny this one) and geeks love research.

2.) Its got real characters. We have an amazing insight into the 40k universe through the eyes of regular humans alongside superhuman Space marines. We get to see how awesome Space Marines are and a slightly more human personality to them ( because of the lack of Hypnotherapy, the lack of monotonous religion and starting the Imperial Cult is much more fun than mindlessly doing rituals that you have no clue about). Because of the range of free thought in the protagonists and not being told what to think, we see more character development. We are excited by said character development for new characters, who's fate could actually die (I remember the shock of Bragg getting it in GG) and we are interested in the journeys, the how and the why of some of the big characters we know survive (didnt take alot of imagination for Lucius, but Fulgrim was great).

3.) Its real sci-fi. And by that I mean real plot and more. Science Fiction is not just about soap operas in space or 'bolter porn'. The greatest writers- such as Asimov, Philip K. Dick, Arthur C Clark and the like add deep thinking about philosophy, theology, morality, politics, or 'life the universe and everything' as well as original and exciting advances in, you guessed it science (Contemptor Dreadnought woooo!). Also, because of these factors it tends to mimic well known stories that we already know, but pushed into our sci-fi boys with guns and laser swords world. (See Battlestar Galactica- originally named 'Adams Ark' as a vehicle for telling Bible stories in space. I was sooo gutted that I hadnt spotted that Saul was a cylon and always was going to be from the beginning from the name). The HH includes pieces from History with the Emporer having a Julius Caesar, Jesus, Constantine the Great and even a little Mohammed theme at the same time as combining Shakespeare in with copy pasted texts from the Bible, Spartacus, LotR, harry potter again, greek mythology some egyptology etc etc (Mechanicum intro- Revelation and many more besides) and The HH has more scope for all this than the existing, established 40k universe which has to adhere to the first principle of 40k- is it Grimdark enough??? These factors are making this universe fresh and exciting instead of stale and grimdark. Also big points to Eldargal in this category for humour.

4.) It looks cool! Yes, one of the main reasons we are in this hobby is because the toy soldiers look cool. The HH imagery and miniatures look cool because a.) they just do. and b.) our post post modern (or alter modern) culture that is just emerging loves looking back at the past and c.) we are nostalgic. Also, a contributing factor is that this is a geeky hobby, and geeks horde things. And then want rare and limited edition things (or 'classics and collectors') and will pay through the nose for the shiny charizard, 'the amazing spiderman 1', first edition harry potter and 'rare and OOP Space marine'.

So... whats my list missing. Also, I am aware the HH isnt everyones cup of tea. So why did you click on the link and why did you reply??? You could be happily talking about something you do like!!! There are some sweet models in the modelling section- go compliment them and drool over the paintjob I dream of.

[eldargal]

Pfft, Fall of the Eldar > Horus Heresy. When was the last time you masturbated a god into existence? Don't answer that.

[DrLove42]

Frankly I don't give a sh**.

The books are great and set up a brilliant story, but all the clamouring for pre-heresy armour and stuff is just annoying.

Hell the FW seminar had a vote for if we wanted pre-heresy Terminator armour....i'm the only one who voted no

[Morgan Darkstar]

Hell the FW seminar had a vote for if we wanted pre-heresy Terminator armour....i'm the only one who voted no

And thus you are in a very small minority :p

Forgeworld Primarch models FTW :D

Personally I think the reason that the HH creates such an interest is because it is effectively the origin story of the Imperium as it stands today (Before anyone jumps down my throat I am aware lots of stuff happened before this, but that was not the origin story of the imperium. Just as a story about Bruce Waynes parents wouldn't be the origin story of Batman.)

Oh and the models are cool aswell :D

Just my opinion

[Grailkeeper]

The Horus Heresy is arguably the most exciting thing happening in the world of GW



You may have answered your own question. It'd be really interesting to read the Heresy books without knowing about the 40k universe, that way it would be a surprise which legions turn and which stay loyal etc. It'd work better if they started at the very start of the great crusade and we knew more about each legion before they turned.

[DrLove42]

And thus you are in a very small minority :p


I even qualify for some kind of government tax break for ebing in such a small minority appparantly

[Moros]

I'll tell you why... cause the Horus Heresy story is the best story in the entire GW franchise. Just look at it from a storytelling perspective and not a wargaming perspective. It is rock solid with ALL the elements of a great story.

In my opinion, its the only well balanced enough story to make into a real movie. A good enough director could take this story to amazing box office success.

A lot of the other stories are great and all, for wargamers and nerds... but the Horus Heresy has the universal plot elements that make up an epic.

[eldargal]

Not since New Labour lost the election you don't.


I even qualify for some kind of government tax break for ebing in such a small minority appparantly

[Morgan Darkstar]

Not since New Labour lost the election you don't.

Lol "no handouts for wargamers"

[daboarder]

the main reason?


Because for the most part unlike the rest of our lovely little make believe universe the Heresy has never been completely fleshed out. Its still full of short stories and fragmented images, as such our imaginations fill in the gaps and make it far more epic than knowing exactly how it went down could ever hope to be.

[DrLove42]

You mean I can't claim since I have to spend 10% of my wages on miniatures I can't claim it back? Damn

[Paul]

The Horus Heresy is the rage because Marines jizzing bullets onto Marines with more Marines somewhere doing Marine things is apparently awesome. Mix it up with Marines flailing axes into Marines with more Marines somewhere doing Imperial Army things and you've got a winning formula! /sarcasm

Oh, that single book about the Adeptus Mechanicus was good.

[DCompanyChris]

I think several of the other posters have hit on some of the key things, but for me the Heresy really represents what the universe of 40k is all about...unending, unceasing war between a variety of factions.

It is not hard to imagine the Imperium showing up and taking over a world, converting it from a forested paradise to an economic workplace full of imported menials. It's also not hard to imagine an organization as large and as heartless as the Imperium collapsing in on itself due to its sheer size and vanity.

In all honesty, the heresy interests me alot, but I was (and continue to be intrigued) by the Badab war for similar reasons. The Badab war, whatever it ultimately becomes, was really a small dispute that cooler heads could have settled, but the Imperium deals with all problems by the application of force, and the situation grew rapidly out of control.

In terms of tabletop play, I'm not a tournament player. I play and model for the theme of the game. My favorite opponents are orks and guard, and I like to play Marine based, but theme appropriate armies.

I built a 5000 point Tyrant Legion army (using the non-tournament legal Imperial Armor list) out a variety of GW, FW Wargames Factory and Ramshackle Games for a fun army to play in themed games. And while I have a tournament army in my Deathwing, and a "regular" army of Salamanders, as I look at some of the pre-heresy stuff coming out, I'm actually starting to think about a themed heresey-era army of a different chapter (How I will pay for that is something else entirely)

For me, the Heresy represents an age where there's new opportunities to model, and build up a themed list around the modeling aspect. I learned alot about painting, especially as I did the Tyrant Legion, and I'd like to put that to work. Getting to fight a brother on brother war...that's just icing on the cake.

[Paul]

For me, the Heresy represents an age where there's new opportunities to model,
For Marines


and build up a themed list around the modeling aspect.
For marines.


Getting to fight a brother on brother war...that's just icing on the cake.
By brother on brother, I hope you meant Marine on Marine ... my Guard and Mechanicus forces were starting to feel a little less left out there at the end.

[wittdooley]

The Horus Heresy is the rage because Marines jizzing bullets onto Marines with more Marines somewhere doing Marine things is apparently awesome. Mix it up with Marines flailing axes into Marines with more Marines somewhere doing Imperial Army things and you've got a winning formula! /sarcasm

Oh, that single book about the Adeptus Mechanicus was good.

The popularity has less to do with Marines and more to do with humanity. You've clearly not read many of the books if this is your outlook, as nearly ALL of them have human focal characters. Hell, the ENTIRE SPACE WOLVES NOVEL is told from a human's perspective. Plus Legion, Nemesis, A Thousand Sons, etc...

Anyways, I believe the HH is compelling because of the characterization. I've often referred to the HH books as the "literature" of the Black Library; where your normal BL books are for all intents and purposes military fiction or bolter porn (see Space Marine Battles), the HH books have taken great care to craft round, believeable characters. Magnus. Russ. Horus. All of the Remembrancers. The Mournival. These are all characters with depth. We get to see a great deal of humanity within the Astartes characters in the HH books, and thats why we're compelled to read them. Couple that with the fact that its a brother-vs-brother civil war, and it emotionally grasps us even more.

[Paul]

The popularity has less to do with Marines and more to do with humanity. You've clearly not read many of the books if this is your outlook, as nearly ALL of them have human focal characters. Hell, the ENTIRE SPACE WOLVES NOVEL is told from a human's perspective. Plus Legion, Nemesis, A Thousand Sons, etc...

Anyways, I believe the HH is compelling because of the characterization. I've often referred to the HH books as the "literature" of the Black Library; where your normal BL books are for all intents and purposes military fiction or bolter porn (see Space Marine Battles), the HH books have taken great care to craft round, believeable characters. Magnus. Russ. Horus. All of the Remembrancers. The Mournival. These are all characters with depth. We get to see a great deal of humanity within the Astartes characters in the HH books, and thats why we're compelled to read them. Couple that with the fact that its a brother-vs-brother civil war, and it emotionally grasps us even more.

It's not the books I'm referring to necessarily. It's all the pre-heresy stuff. ALL OF IT, these awesome new models and gorgeous weapons...

...for Marines. There's a lot of Humanity in the heresy too, but everyone wants to see Prometheus Land Raiders, not Guard Leman Russes. Everyone wants Mk 1 Rhinos, not Mechanicus wonderweapons.

[TheRise]

For one simple reason... Ultras are hardly mentioned. :D

[Rissan4ever]

The Heresy-era models and armies I've seen look very cool, and Heresy-era campaigns have an almost historical wargaming feel to them, so I understand that appeal. But it's all Marines all the time, and I find that boring. I'd much rather see the fluff move forward rather than constantly looking backward.

[MaltonNecromancer]

The Heresy's popularity (at least for me) comes down to the aesthetic (familiar, but different), as well as it's open embrace of the Superheroic: the Primarchs might as well have stepped from the pages of Marvel comics. 40K is, on many levels, a Male Power Fantasy ("I am a skilled general. Men follow my words. I am undefeatable."), but as we all know, on the battlefield, there aren't all that many superheroes. On a bad day, even Marneus Calgar can get taken out before he does anything of use.

Now, how many of us (when we were younger and stupider) wrote up stats for our beloved Primarch of choice along the lines of ten in every stat and a whole bunch of powers that enabled them to basically kill the enemy army during the deployment phase? The Primarchs are basically a Darker and Edgier version of superheroes (some almost explicitly so. Guilliman might as well have a big "S" in a triangle on his aquila). As superheroes represent the apex of the Male Power Fantasy ("I need no-one. I am strong. I am unafraid. I am undefeatable. All those who oppose me will fall.") the Heresy represents the coming together of two very solid Power Fantasies, and thus a massive increase in appeal.

Plus, the scary religious overtones of the whole thing lend it a mythic scope and scale that 40K doesn't really have. 40K is the Dark Ages IN SPACE! The Heresy is the Bibilcal Apocrypha, and thus taps into an altogether older set of stories with more resonance. It's closer to fantasy, and thus has the gravitic pull of both sci-fi and fantasy genres.

Also, there's goodies and baddies, and while we love 40K for it's "Evil against Evil" thing (I love the people who seem to think Chaos are the truly evil faction when compared to the totalitarian nightmare of the Imperium. In a fight between Charles Manson and Robert Mugabe, how do you begin to compare who's more evil?!), many people prefer to have their ethics cut-and-dried. While the modern Imperium is Germany circa 1943, the Heresy-era Imperium was undeniable brighter and more decent. The Emperor was a harsh but fair leader, Reason was the order of the day... Seriously, Sanguinius was an actual angel!

It has Romanticism, Good vs. Evil, and superheroes. It's also not remotely original, and for a genre piece, that's a good thing. Everything is recognisably an updating of an older myth, which lends it weight. Finally, to all those people who say "Marines are boring": well, you've not really got anything to contribute h here then, have you? Other than to say it doesn't interest you. You don't like 'em or care? Fair enough. Some of us like them, have always liked them, and will always like them, regardless of what is or isn't popular or in vogue at the present moment.

I just like Mk 5 armour, if I'm honest. That and the 1st edition Land Raider.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Fall of the Eldar > Horus Heresy. When was the last time you masturbated a god into existence?

Horus Heresy = balanced battle; two roughly equal forces, where the outcome was in doubt. Yes, we know the way the war goes, but in any game, it could go either way. It's Steve Austin vs. The Rock in front of a packed arena.

Fall of the Eldar = curb stomp of the Eldar. One grossly overpowered force utterly annihilates another, far weaker one. No real resistance of any kind is presented, and the survivors do so by basically running away. Some of them run so far and fast they run away into an alternative dimension. Much as I love the Cenobit... sorry, Dark Eldar, they presented absolutely no threat whatsoever to Slaanesh; they just ran away. It's Steve Austin vs. a lone agoraphobic with asthma, and Austin brought a gun. All the agoraphobic brought were his best running shoes and that loose, loose bladder.

I don't know about you, but a tale of an army just running away and surviving by the skin of it's teeth doesn't have quite the same grandeur.

Now, if we're talking a roleplaying game, Fall of the Eldar is far more interesting to me (because I prefer my RPG's to do what wargames and computer games can't, and explore ideas about morality, ethics, and personal horror, rather than just giving me yet another way to fictionally kill things.) In roleplaying terms, Fall of the Eldar would be the mature horror motherlode for Dark Heresy. But for wargames, it's the story of Dave (bravest of all the Eldar Guardians), walking up to the gates of Slaanesh's castle, knocking on the mile high doors, and announcing that Slaanesh has three minutes to surrender or Dave's coming on in to get him, then watching as Dave is submerged under approximately 900 billion metric tonnes of Daemonettes.

When your Eldar army's victory conditions for every single battle are effectively "Leave by the nearest table edge or webway gate", you know you've got an uphill battle to convince people.

Plus, I'm not getting back into Eldar until Striking Scorpions are available in plastic. :) (Which, admittedly, is probably going to be the day after never. :()

[wittdooley]

It's not the books I'm referring to necessarily. It's all the pre-heresy stuff. ALL OF IT, these awesome new models and gorgeous weapons...

...for Marines. There's a lot of Humanity in the heresy too, but everyone wants to see Prometheus Land Raiders, not Guard Leman Russes. Everyone wants Mk 1 Rhinos, not Mechanicus wonderweapons.

Maybe I'm missing something, aren't Knight Titans and Mechanicus units the only thing missing here? There are plenty of IG kits that are suitably "pre-heresy". Doing an entire Mechanicus line is, by all accounts, on FW's radar; I imagine it's a much more time consuming process than using the same CAD Power Armour save profile they already have and modifying it up a bit.

BTW, I'd love Knight Titans. I would buy a full lance.

[Wildeybeast]

I'll tell you why... cause the Horus Heresy story is the best story in the entire GW franchise. Just look at it from a storytelling perspective and not a wargaming perspective. It is rock solid with ALL the elements of a great story.

In my opinion, its the only well balanced enough story to make into a real movie. A good enough director could take this story to amazing box office success.

A lot of the other stories are great and all, for wargamers and nerds... but the Horus Heresy has the universal plot elements that make up an epic.

It does indeed have all the elements of a great story, because it's an almost direct rip off of Macbeth. The most favoured and celebrated warrior (Macbeth/Horus) has fatal character flaw (he's a chump) which is preyed on by evil powers (witches/Chaos) and is manipulated into an attempt to kill the king/Emperor and sieze power. Oh, and just for good measure he murders his best friend in the process (Banquo/Sanguinius). Shakespeare knew how to write a riproarer of a story alright.

I think for me, the HH is such a page turner because you already know the end. As someone has mentioned, you know the world of Bruce Wayne and you love it, but you really want to know how he got to be the way he is. You care about the background because you are invested in the universe already. Knowing how that world came to be the way it is, gives you a greater level of understanding and appreciation of the current world.

[gwensdad]

Pfft, Fall of the Eldar > Horus Heresy. When was the last time you masturbated a god into existence? Don't answer that.

This is the greatest thing I have heard all day.

[Lord Anubis]

I think for me, the HH is such a page turner because you already know the end. As someone has mentioned, you know the world of Bruce Wayne and you love it, but you really want to know how he got to be the way he is. You care about the background because you are invested in the universe already. Knowing how that world came to be the way it is, gives you a greater level of understanding and appreciation of the current world.

Which is why we all thought the Star Wars prequels were soooo awesome! Because we knew what was going to happen to every character and there were no surprises. Yeah!!! :)

(nothing personal, Wildeybeast)

I've been pretty underwhelmed by the Horus Heresy books for just these reasons. They're well written in a purely mechanical sense (so they get points over Lucas right there), but at the end of the day we know what happens to all these characters. We know how all their melodramatic wailing and moral struggling ends. We how the story turns out. Everything else is manufactured drama. It's like all the people who sobbed uncontrollably for the last half of Titanic-- did they not know the boat sank?

I think the Horus Heresy was a much, much stronger tale when it was just legends and folk tales and there were conflicting rumors in different codexes. Gamers could bounce theories off each other about "why this" and "how that" and nobody really knew for sure. That's what made it really epic--that this gigantic world had been going on for so long people didn't even know how these founding events happened. Think how much we don't know about the ancient Egyptians and now go back five times farther. That's epic.

It was a mystery and it was strong because it was a mystery. Now that it's all getting nailed down and hammered in place. And it's not quite as impressive as it could've been... :(

[Deadlift]

I like the books very much, why ?

They bring figures of legend in the lore of 40k to life. You get a closer look at the likes of Lion El'Jonson, Magnus the Red, Rogal Dorn and many more. It gives us a chance to read about the history of our own armies and a backstory to enhance the flavour of each chapter/legion. The books also do a very good job of showing the reader sometimes though a mortal mans eyes just how different space marines are, They become even more "comic book" heroic and larger than life.
But the HH books are not just about the marines, you also get to read about people and their struggles to survive in the 30k universe. It seems a dangerous place and makes for drama and intrigue by the bucket load.
Oh and we cant forget Horus.....that guy is the ultimate 40k bad guy. The fun thing with him is he genuinely believes he is doing the right thing for the empire of man, He believes he is the good guy fighting against the oppressive regime of the Emperor.

As for the models, well everyone likes something on the table different than the next guy. Were all creative hobbists, thats why were all in these forums and the FW HH models are different, very pretty and allow us to show off our armies and say " Look I have something different to you"

[chromedog]

I'm not fizzin' over it.

I've read two and a half HH novels. That's all I need to read.
If I want more marine fanwank bolterporn, I can read a Mat Ward codex.

It's history. There it should stay.
Even without the HH "new fluff", there are enough holes in the "current" stuff to not need it.

[Wolfshade]

Why do people love HH stuff? Same reason why people love going to watch sports matches, you can read the result or you can watch the game.
I love the fact that it is "new" by this originally the heresy consitsted of a few paragraphs and now we have imagry for it, you can see that there is a marked change from heresy era imperium and "now".
Also, it explains why primarch turned against primarch and in such a way as to engender sympathy for them like the Alpha legion turning traitor to remain loyal.
From a GW point of view its great because as long as they keep within cannon they can do anything they like without endangering the current setting of the game, whereas if they move the current setting on (or on too much) they can risk alienating the audience.


You mean I can't claim since I have to spend 10% of my wages on miniatures I can't claim it back? Damn

I wonder if I can be become a professional wargamer and then claim tax back on GW stuff as its for business use, either that or set up an eptitions to demand that HM Government recognise that plastic crack is essential to every day living and therefore should qualify to be VAT exempt!

[pathwinder14]

Garviel Loken FTW! I love the martial comparison that was made between him and Lucius. Loken is a no B.S. practical sort of fighter. Lucuis is an elegant fighter. Once a fight gets tough, elegance gets thrown out the window to make room for practicality.

[MaltonNecromancer]

at the end of the day we know what happens to all these characters. We know how all their melodramatic wailing and moral struggling ends. We how the story turns out. Everything else is manufactured drama.

Knowing the end of a story at the start isn't a bad thing. Done well, it can be utterly compelling. It's called "dramatic irony", and is an extremely effective technique to really create tension. Some famous writers have used it. You may have heard of William Shakespeare (though I hate to presume). He uses it in almost all of his stories; look at Romeo and Juliet - we're told right at the start that they kill themselves. The thing is, we're not told why or how. Thus, the more they fall in love, the worse we like it. When Romeo leaves, Juliet says "Oh Lord, I have some ill-divining soul; methinks I see thee now thou art so low as one dead in the bottom of a tomb", and we as an audience know: she right. The next time she sees him, he's going to be dead in a tomb. Thus we feel more sympathetic for her; fate is not necessarily a nice thing, yes? Knowing the future can be a terrible burden, and you can inflict it on an audience wilfully.

(To give a couple of modern examples that use it extremely effectively: "American Beauty" and "Heaveanly Creatures". Knowing the ending just makes everything so much worse.)

To be so dismissive over such a thing doesn't mean the technique is bad, just the writing.

And of course the Star Wars prequels were bad. George Lucas may be a visionary, but he's a dreadful writer. Even Harrison Ford thinks so. (Ford told Lucas to his face "You can write this s*** George, but you sure can't say it.")

[Wildeybeast]

Which is why we all thought the Star Wars prequels were soooo awesome! Because we knew what was going to happen to every character and there were no surprises. Yeah!!! :)

(nothing personal, Wildeybeast)

None taken, the Star War's Prequels were utter garabage, but that was because Lucas turned the into shameless cash cows and lost the magic formula which made the originals so much fun. I think HH is different. A lot of the 40k universe is still shrouded in mystery, so they can fill in the past without detracting from the current 'story'

[wittdooley]

[QUOTE=MaltonNecromancer;159171]Knowing the end of a story at the start isn't a bad thing. Done well, it can be utterly compelling. It's called "dramatic irony", and is an extremely effective technique to really create tension. Some famous writers have used it. You may have heard of William Shakespeare (though I hate to presume). He uses it in almost all of his stories; look at Romeo and Juliet - we're told right at the start that they kill themselves. The thing is, we're not told why or how. Thus, the more they fall in love, the worse we like it. When Romeo leaves, Juliet says "Oh Lord, I have some ill-divining soul; methinks I see thee now thou art so low as one dead in the bottom of a tomb", and we as an audience know: she right. The next time she sees him, he's going to be dead in a tomb. Thus we feel more sympathetic for her; fate is not necessarily a nice thing, yes? Knowing the future can be a terrible burden, and you can inflict it on an audience wilfully.
[QUOTE]

This is the reason when we see Horus, post turn, do noble things, we can't help but ask, "why, man, why"

[Lord Anubis]

Knowing the end of a story at the start isn't a bad thing. Done well, it can be utterly compelling. It's called "dramatic irony", and is an extremely effective technique to really create tension. Some famous writers have used it. You may have heard of William Shakespeare (though I hate to presume). He uses it in almost all of his stories; look at Romeo and Juliet - we're told right at the start that they kill themselves. The thing is, we're not told why or how. Thus, the more they fall in love, the worse we like it. When Romeo leaves, Juliet says "Oh Lord, I have some ill-divining soul; methinks I see thee now thou art so low as one dead in the bottom of a tomb", and we as an audience know: she right. The next time she sees him, he's going to be dead in a tomb. Thus we feel more sympathetic for her; fate is not necessarily a nice thing, yes? Knowing the future can be a terrible burden, and you can inflict it on an audience wilfully.
)

Actually, Malton (may I call you Malton?), I have a very good knowledge of Shakespeare, which is why I know Romeo & Juliet isn't a good analogy. ;)

Shakespeare announcing right at the top of the play that Romeo and Juliet are going to fall in love, die, and reunite their families isn't dramatic irony. We know they die but the real dramatic irony (the classic example of it, in fact, when you study such things) isn't knowing they die, it's realizing they didn't have to die. The whole thing was just bad timing. More to the point, we don't know how they meet, about the deaths of Mecrutio and Tybalt, Romeo being banished, the sleeping draught-- all of this gets revealed in the telling and that's why it's a tragedy.

In the Horus Heresy books, we do know why and how. It's not a situation where we know one or two key things the characters don't. We know pretty much the whole story. So the way most of the HH books I've seen are trying to create dramatic irony is by showing us that Primarch X was actually a really good guy trying to do really good things, and he only turned evil by accident while trying to act on his immense love for his brothers and the Emperor.

And as a few folks have pointed out in this thread... that gets old real quick. ;)

[Wildeybeast]

In the Horus Heresy books, we do know why and how. It's not a situation where we know one or two key things the characters don't. We know pretty much the whole story. So the way most of the HH books I've seen are trying to create dramatic irony is by showing us that Primarch X was actually a really good guy trying to do really good things, and he only turned evil by accident while trying to act on his immense love for his brothers and the Emperor.

I don't know about you, but when I read Legion that was real eye opener. I like to think I'm fairly fluent in the fluff, but I had never heard any of that before.

[Lord Anubis]

No, actually that's a fair point. I thought Legion was absolutely fantastic, and the best Heresy book by far.

However, I think it's also proving my point that one of the coolest HH books involves the legion that we know the least about, and they're dealing with events that have never been hinted at before.