chaos help

[apahllo]

hey everybody. i want to get my chaos army rolling. i know the codex is out of dat but i love choas;) im new to chaos and need some insite from the gods. thanks for your wisdom.
i really like khorne deamon weapons and im considering taking 2 if i dont take a deamon prince.
as for elites i think they are mostly kinda pointless except termies. they can have tl auto and power weapons in termie armour is a dream come true.
i love that you can take all 4 types of choas god troops but i was wondering which are the best and how to use them. i think bezerkers are the most strait forward but i want to know the best way to use plague marines and 1k sons and noise marines.
i want to take raptors with khorne icon as fast attack but im not sure it would be worth the points.
for heavy support i want to take a defiler so so so bad. but i was wondering if a havocs squad with 4 auto cannons will do well. otherwise ill be taking missles.

ill have an army list later i just want some words of wisdom about what troops to take and what unit combos are the best to take. any cool/fun strats are more then welcome.

[FTE-Charge!!!]

The Khorne Daemon weapons arent that bad of a choice (despite what many on this site may say concerning the lord choice) As far as I remember they significantly improve your chance of not attacking yourself.

Termies are termies; they would make a good bodyguard unit for the lord and could bring in some nice firepower.

Of all the cult troop choice I think only Khorne and Nurgle are worth it. Nurgle is just plain annoying for the opponent and Khorne is straightforward and deadly. 1k Sons are not my choice bc they are premium price and there are too many cover saves available for the opponent. Noise marines get far too expensive when you upgrade the sonic weaponry, and I5 isnt that much to write home about for the points increase.

Raptors might be a good choice, cant remember their cost. Not many players use them, which is to your advantage but they do act very similar to assualt marines so opponents might have a trick or two for dealing with them.

Havocs work well and I think the defiler is a good choice. Just remember to keep firing the battle cannon unless a truly juicy assault target comes up. With low initiative and WS you want him taking on fights you know he can win; esp vechicles.

Hope that helps some

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

The Khorne Daemon weapons arent that bad of a choice (despite what many on this site may say concerning the lord choice) As far as I remember they significantly improve your chance of not attacking yourself.
Wrong way around - they significantly increase your chance of attacking yourself. Most Daemon Weapons roll 1d6 for attacks, and hurt the user on a 1. The Khorne one rolls 2d6, and if either of them roll a 1, the Lord hurts himself. So, that's roughly a 1/3 chance of him not being able to attack and hurting himself each assault phase.

[Capitano]

the raptors do act like assault marines for all intents and purposes...

except instead of a 10 man squad max...you can take a 20 man squad...thus more wounds and more attacks for when they do get there...

400 points gets you a 20 man squad throw on a mark of khorne and you will have 3 base attacks and 4 on the charge...gives you 80 attacks on the charge...all strenght 4 Initive 4...

[apahllo]

i dont think its quite 1/3 lols but its for sure higher then standard or weapon from other gods. i mean lords in 40k are a gamble anyways, its only 25 points anyway. so why not bet an extra 25 points. as for raptors i wouldnt want to have 20 metal models that are prone to tip over :( i wish they were plastic) might give them plastic jump packs.
just had a thought. would raptors with nurgle make sense?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

To be perfectly precise, it's a 30.5% chance of failure each time its used :P They can be very fun, I use one myself, but be ready for him to beat himself up a lot! I've had him wipe out units before any of his accompanying squad could attack, but I've also had him punch himself to death :P

Nurgle Raptors used to be disallowed under the old 'dex, but they're kosher now. Some decent art of them in the Visions of Heresy. Gamewise, they're basically Chaos Bikers without Turbo-boost. If you want fun Nurgle Fast Attack, try Nurgle Bikers, they get to be T4(6) :D

[Wildcard]

the raptors do act like assault marines for all intents and purposes...

And if i remember correctly, they never change pistol nor chainsword for special weapon, so raptors can fire their special weapons and still got +1 attack from having a pistol + ccw.


Noise marines get far too expensive when you upgrade the sonic weaponry

And yet their 5++ save could be only save you are generally going to get against some armies making it a viable choice. And those sonic weapons can be quite a threat to some armies and builds.

-Nurgle marines are great for annoying your oppoenent, just make sure that majority of their weapons are not AP1, AP2, and favourably str5 or less to get most out of your investment.

-Remember to take Havoc launchers on you rhinos, i hear they are practically a must.

- Kharn the betrayer is a melee monster, especially against units that rely on psychic powers (Kharn is immune to every and all effects that has something to do with psychic)


There are basically two deciding factors when it comes to building a chaos army (or basically almost any army): Do you wanna go to a specific god-themed army, or build a list that is as competitive as it gets?

For excample: If you love khorne, you can choose to take:

Khorne lord
Berserkers
Bloodletters as lesser summoned daemons
Khorne terminators (pimped out with chainfists and reaper autocannons)
Defiler with 2 extra close combat weapons
Havocs with all possible autocannons
Bloodthirster / equivalent as summoned greater daemon

This list is all out and pretty truthfull to the idea of khorne and ultimately super cool play with and against on the fluff / some story point of view, yet you will probably soon learn that there are some problems with defeating some units, heavy vehicles for excample. Also, in addition, some choices will be overkill to many units you are most likely to face on the field, wiping them out too easily on your assault phase thus leaving your forces open for enemy shooting & assault.

On the other hand:

Daemon princes (prular, not gender :) ) with lash of submissions (alternatively chaos sorcerers with mark of tzeenzech and lash of submissions)
Couple of medium size plaguemarine squads with 2 meltas /plasmas in rhinos
3x3 men squads of obliterators
possibly couple of more themed space marine squads, depending on the enemy you are facing (in rhinos as well)
or
chaos chosen squad to ruin the enemy plans by infiltrating with 4x plasma gun and 1x plasma pistol (if i remember the loadout right)

this is somewhere along the lines in a general manner of one of the most competitive lists chaos players can take from their codex.

In the end though, it really really comes down into the fact that are you playing in tournaments, or in a small gaming group of your friends, and are you aiming for the victory, or for the sake of having fun and interesting and challengin (for all sides equally) games..

[Ulf]

Chaos Lords are not that bad overall, it's just that they are the worst HQ option in the book. Daemon Weapons make them more expensive and less reliable, so if you're going for powergaming you're probably better off avoiding them. Sorcerors with warptime are better in melee, but if you're going for Khorne that's not an option. Same goes for Daemon Princes - Mark of Khorne is ok, warptime is better. Never ever take a DP without wings. If you are into synergy, try a MoT DP with warptime and a shooty second Psychic Power, which will benefit from the rerolls warptime provides.
Bottom line: Take something with warptime, or Khârn if you play World Eaters, maybe add a cheap Lord with only one weapon to accompany your zerkers. Dont take lash, everybody will hate you for it. :\

The Chaos Elites offer only two real options: Terminators and Chosen. Terminators are awesome, even without upgrades - 30 points a piece is very cheap given their basic equipment is already highend. Throw in a Mark of Khorne and some special weapons and you have a moderatly priced elite melee unit with medium firepower.
Chosen are awesome because they can take lots of special weapons and infiltrate. Take a squad of 5 with 5 flamers, let them outflank - ruins somebodys day for sure. Just dont try to kit them for melee, they have the options, but they are too expensive.
Dreadnoughts and Possessed are not as bad as their reputation, but again like the Chaos Lord, not reliable enough if you play to win.

In the Troops section, there are lots of viable options - still one of the best selections amongst all codices out there. Zerkers are indeed one mean unit, few units out there that can go toe to toe with em and win. Main problem is getting them into melee in the first place, so you should take at least a rhino to transport them. 35 Points is ridiculously cheap for a tank - havoc launchers are nice, but only take them if you have some points spare, rhinos are primarily there to drive around and deliver chaos dudes.
Thousand Sons excel at killing MEQ, or pretty much everything with a 3+ armor save (except wraithlords ;)). You have to hide them a bit from being shot at by low strength/high quantity weaopons (lasguns, bolters...), so a Rhino is once again mandatory. Disembark from a rhino that moved up to 12", shoot something to bits counting as stationary thanks to s&p, repeat. While many people complain about the sorceror being too expansive, he comes with a force weapon (can cause instant death) and 3 attacks, 4 on the charge - most multi wound models have to think twice before attacking the otherwise weak TS squads in melee. Only problem is if your enemy has no viable targets for their improved bolters, like all terminator armies or IG.
Plague Marines are tough, and with special weapons they can deliver a little punch. Solid choice, but they die very quickly to things like Battle Cannons, Artillery, Energy Weapons etc. Again, keep them in a Rhino or in good cover.
Noise Marines.. never played with or against them, so I have no idea. Their weapons seem kinda expensive to me...
Ordinary CSM are not a bad choice either, probably more flexible than all the cult troops. So if you don't know what you're up against, they are the best choice. Just dont leave the house without power fist sarge and a good mix of special weapons (dont mix inside squads).
Lesser Daemons are not bad either, but for 2 points more, you can get a CSM, who has much better equipment. Plus, you have to spread some Icons around your army, if you don't already have them anyway...

Havocs are only good for the special weapons, but not the heavy ones. For heavy weapons, take obliterators, period. If you take Obliterators, dont deepstrike them, you probably want them shooting from turn one most of the time. They are vulnerable to Lascannons, so if terrain allows it, hide them from such weapons.
Defilers are good if you need more long range firepower, but they pretty much suck in melee thanks to WS 3 and I 3. Still a decent unit.

[apahllo]

okay, you guys seemed to help reassure me with your great posts. also the facts about raptor special weapons and havocs is good. ill think about the chosen with flamers because i have always wanted an excuse to take flamers!!
as for sons; i want to take a medium squad (7 maybe) in rhino with the spawn ability. it just seems like so so much fun. i love plague marines and khorne zerks, strait mighty units in whatever they do.
the defiler will be a question for me to investigate further. everyone says its meh but a walking battle cannon with 5 s10 hits... awesome for defense.

as for the quality of my army. im mostly looking for fun, but nobody likes to lose and im a real strat buff.

thanks for the insite you guys. really really helpful. check back in a few days when i have my list ready, im going to need you insite there too ;)

[Demonus]

Wrong way around - they significantly increase your chance of attacking yourself. Most Daemon Weapons roll 1d6 for attacks, and hurt the user on a 1. The Khorne one rolls 2d6, and if either of them roll a 1, the Lord hurts himself. So, that's roughly a 1/3 chance of him not being able to attack and hurting himself each assault phase.

Which is a stupid mechanic. If a daemon weapon wielder rolls a 1, he should simply take a wound with no armor save, and be resigned to his normal stat attacks. Does any other army in the game have something that cripples them in cc for 1 bad random roll?

[The Twilight Fade]

I'm always more fond of the nurgle deamon weapon as you only roll one dice for number of attacks but wound on a 4+ with a re-roll against most opponents which seems to average out quite nicely and reduces the amount of mishaps.

Although I am fond of the khorne one when it works, once took one and butchered a squad of black templars after rolling two 6's for the attacks. It was glorious!!!

[Wildcard]

the defiler will be a question for me to investigate further. everyone says its meh but a walking battle cannon with 5 s10 hits... awesome for defense.


Few points:
1) It takes a heavy support slot
- Eats possibility for 3x Obliterators
2) There are hardly ever a place in gameboard where defiler can hide, even partially
- Enemy can rather easily bring all its heavy weapons he needs to bring down the defiler
3) Defiler is not that good in melee, and if he getst stuck in it you lose the battlecannon shots (most impressive feature of the defiler)

[celestialatc]

as for raptors i wouldnt want to have 20 metal models that are prone to tip over :( i wish they were plastic) might give them plastic jump packs.
just had a thought.

CSM are great because they are so open to custimization. You want 20 Raptors? Get some assault marines and Chaos them up! If you know a Chaos Warrior player, they will have a ton of bits you could probably use to Chaos them up. Don't have any bits? That's fine! Just make some spikes by cutting up the frames, make their armor look defiled with discolored paint patterns. Or just make them normal assault marines and say they fell to Chaos yesterday!

I play a Word Bearers themed army and I don't like using the troop boxes for the specific troops. So I wanted a couple units of Khrone Berzerkers, I got some space wolf packs, made them with a hand weapon and pistol, used some chaos bits from my warriors of chaos army and now I have a group of Space Wolves that the Word bearers gave to Khrone to make Shock Troops!

[foostufoo]

Khorne Daemon weapons are either extremely deadly or damage you badly. I played a game against a khorne army, he had a khorne lord with daemon weapon in a squad of bezerkers, the only model that took a hit was his lord, annihalted my entire marine squad in one blow. So yea, powerful, but highly unpredictable due to them taking a wound if they roll a one on either of the two dice (pretty high odds!)

Your mostly right on the elites section, termies are pretty much the best choice. Although a squad of possessed in a land raider can do some real damage too. Filling a LR with 10 possessed, moving up as quick as possible, the LR's assault hatch rule (cant rememeber its proper name) can let these bad boys out and assaulting the enemy in just 2 turns if your lucky. Plus lets face it, LR's arent the easiest thing to pierce!

Like someone mentiond before, berzerkers and plague marines are your best troops choices. I've never fielded bezerkers myself so all I know is what I've read/seen others use. But they seem pretty nasty in combat, their price per model isnt that bad either for what you get, just wouldnt advise foot slogging them across the field without a lot of cover, if the opponent has sense, they will shoot them down before they have time to assault. A rhino would be a wise choice, a LR even better, but they arent cheap.

As for plague marines, they are the heart of my army so I am well experienced in their uses! The main negative for the plague marines is that they aren't cheap. However just look at what you get for your points baring in mind they are only 8 points more than a standard chaos marine:

1. Toughness 5, thats scary already, marines with T5
2. Feel no pain, one of the most annoying rules for their enemies. Fail your already decent armour save? No worries, have a 4+ re-roll!
3. They are all equipped with a bolt pistol and CCW AND bolter, meaning they can shoot like normal marines whilst getting a +1 attack in CC
4. Blight grenades: Now this is what I often find in games when using plague marines. Usually if a normal chaos marine squad/SM tactical squad finds themselves within 12" of a nasty CC squad eg. Termies/genestealers etc... they will assault them in their turn so their enemy cannot gain the +1A bonus for charging in their next turn. With blight grenades the enemy gets no such bonus, so if your plague marines are 12" away from something scary, rapid fire the hell out of them with their bolters, then just face them in CC next turn if you havent already wiped them out.
5. Frag and Krak grenades, can be helpful, saves having to buy them as upgrades. (Normal chaos squads do come with these too)
6. Option to take TWO special weapons: one of my favourite things about this squad, they can be assigned to any role. Give em' 2 meltas to pop a tank. Give em' 2 flamers to go infantry hunting. Theres also the option for plasmas which can do both roles, just neither as well.
7. Fearless: they ain't running anywhere.
8. Option to take a rhino: cheap transport to stop them getting shot to pieces on the first turn.

Thousand sons: same points as plague marines, not as much wargear, rules aren't as good, and have to take a pretty expensive compulsary sorcerer in the squad that you have to give one power, making him a minimum of 70 points. He has EXACTLY the same stats as the other marines par from his extra attack. AP3 bolters are nice, but with all the cover saves these days, they are pretty redundant. The 4+ invun save can make them hard to shift. Expensive, personally dont think they're worth their points.

Noise marines: Cheapest of the 4 factions, I5 due to their mark of slaanesh, pretty pointless considering their upgrades are mostly based around shooting. If you leave them without upgrades they are just an I5 normal chaos marine squad. To make them worth taking you need to upgrade their weapons, eve then they arent too great and you find yourself with a pretty expensive squad.

The fast attack section for a CSM might as well not exist. Bikers, REALLY expensive once they've been upgraded with weapons/marks. Raptors, might as well take berzerkers in a rhino. Spawn? Whats that?

As for Heavy Support, havocs are pointless. No manuverabilty, they cant move and shoot so a clever opponent will just move their units out of their LoS, meaning they then have to spend a turn moving, pretty much doing nothing. Defilers, seem an alright choice, never used one/played against one so cant say too much on them. LR, personally use these more for defence/transport, to me using them to shoot is secondary. Vindicators, can do a lot of damage to pretty much any type of unit, just got to be careful they dont get blown up before they get to shoot. Predators, versatile, again be careful they dont get blown up first turn. Oblits, best choice by far! Can choose whatever of their 5 weapons to shoot each turn, they have the weaponry to damage any type of unit. Pretty much in terminator armour, 2 wounds making them even more resilient and a powerfist just incase they get caught in combat AND they can deepstrike! Bring them in near an icon and no need to roll for scatter. What more could you want? Oh yeah, You can have 9 in one army!


Hope this helped! :)

[Demonus]

I like to take 3 chaos bikers, 1 champ and 2 Melta Guns. Turbo boosting unit that can fly up and pop a tank, or zoom to enemy side and have my Greater Daemon burst out of the champ.

Other than that, yeah fast slot sucks :)

[Da Gargoyle]

"The fast attack section for a CSM might as well not exist. Bikers, REALLY expensive once they've been upgraded with weapons/marks. Raptors, might as well take berzerkers in a rhino. Spawn? Whats that?" from Foostufoo

Demonus has shown how bikers can be used. As for Raptors, you can only put 10 Berzerkers in a Rhino who can't assault the turn they get out, and cost a little more. With Raptors leap twelve, shoot and assault 6 at least two extra raptors for the points you spend on the Rhino.

[2_Wycked]

Honestly, I never even used the FA choices in the CSM dex, in the 4 years of playing them; nor was I tempted to.

Special weapon delivery is done better by Termicide; it cant' easily reach backfield things like Bikes, but the Bikes' cost and small numbers aren't worth the trade off, IMO.

[Sure]

Which is a stupid mechanic. If a daemon weapon wielder rolls a 1, he should simply take a wound with no armor save, and be resigned to his normal stat attacks. Does any other army in the game have something that cripples them in cc for 1 bad random roll?

Yeah, and does any other single model have the possibility of 16 armor-ignoring attacks?

I'd just say start with one thing you like - a unit/character/concept and build a flexible list out of that. Chaos is not competitive right now so just have fun.

[the jeske]

Yeah, and does any other single model have the possibility of 16 armor-ignoring attacks?
do you want that many attacks on your own turn ? so you can break a unit on your own not your opponents turn and eat the fire power of his whole army ? seems like a bad plan .

then is on top of him being a +5inv lord, he stil dies to fists or stuff that hits at higher I with ID power.
he still has to run with a unit which means your army is presenting fewer targets which are no harder to kill then an army runing other HQ then lords .



emonus has shown how bikers can be used. As for Raptors, you can only put 10 Berzerkers in a Rhino who can't assault the turn they get out, and cost a little more. With Raptors leap twelve, shoot and assault 6 at least two extra raptors for the points you spend on the Rhino.

only a termicid is harder to counter and demon delivery doesnt work so well . If you turbo boost turn 1 and the demon doesnt drop[50% chance] then the 3 bikers are dead and/or your opponent moves away from summoning range . If you dont boost turn and and use more cover then there is a 50% chance to get the demon and end up with somethig moving 6" per turn (+d6 if it runs but then no charge] which costs as much as a winged DP . chaos does not have fast attack.



as defilers go they are not good , true . they are bad as weapon platforms [low AV , cant get cover etc] and not so great in hth[ws3 only 6A] , but they are safest in hth [well as long as they dont charge in to chainfists or thunder hammers] . as almost everything in the chaos dex one has to run 3 of them else they dont work at all.

[Infinite Resignation]

Chaos Dreads are pretty good since the last FAQ means that they only fire frenzy in the direction they are facing. They can fill in some of the long range support hole in the Codex, especially for themed Nurgle or Khorne armies which will likely be lacking in this direction. They are cheap too, and when your autocannon/missile launcher dread does fire frenzy it can be very cool!

[mysterex]

I was at an event last year where my opponent charged his terminator khorne lord with a daemon weapon into dangerous terrain to get may bolter equipped marine combat squad.

His first turn of combat he failed his dangerous terrain test, failed to control his daemon weapon and took two wounds. In my following turn he failed to control his daemon weapon again, took another wound and died. Funny as hell.

The moral is, if you're thinking about taking a khorne daemon weapon - don't.

[The Madman]

want to go the cheesy way theres the 9 oblits ,two lash option with possibly plague marines but prepared to be bored to tears. in my experiance all of the choices have been viable when making my lists.

one list i used was 2x princes with wings, 3 2ccw dreads, 3 4ccw defilers and some marines to fill out the troops.

and a note on random rolling; sure theres a chance it can backfire but whats the fun in playing safe?