Imperium as a metaphor for Games Workshop

[whitestar333]

There's a lot of hate out there for Games Workshop and a lot of it seems particularly general, directed at the company 'as a whole' without much explanation (aside from our 'mates' in the southern hemisphere).

However, this article is particularly compelling - albeit a bit long - about how the story of the Imperium works as a metaphor for what Games Workshop has become and what it's dealing with now. It's long, but certainly worth the read:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html

[eldargal]

What a load of bollocks. I'd write a proper reply but the damned thing was too lengthy and I can't be bothered trawling through it again.

The premise is flawed anyway, I could write an article saying the Imperium is a metaphor for anything from New Labour, the USA, France, the EU, Gordon Ramsey and Royal Mail if I wanted. The key is to state your opinions of the subject matter like they are fact with no supporting evidence and then draw the comparison to relevent aspect of the Imperium. Which is exactly what the blog writer did.

[GrenAcid]

@eldargal
I humbly bow before you who read all of that.

I couldnt....I fall asleep.

[whitestar333]

To be fair, the author is using it is only a metaphor, and not a historical essay. You are correct, Eldargal, that you can use the metaphor for lots of different situations - hence it being a metaphor.

I just thought it was an interesting read and the author put a lot of thought into it. I thought it was compelling, not gospel truth or anything. I particularly thought the Internet = Chaos was particularly interesting, as well as the competition as the Xenos threat.

Again, it's a thorough metaphor, and one in which he draws a lot of connections. Like all metaphors, it's not perfect, but I think it's a great literary device to express this author's concerns and opinions - however popular or unpopular they may be. I think its a more creative, productive, and thorough explanation of ones discontent with Games Workshop than the usual hate we see on the internet.

[eldargal]

But the thing is, the metaphor only works because he cherry picks everything and twists them to fit the metaphor, which defeats the purpose. Chaos as the internet was absurd, utterly absurd. The internet may be chaotic but so is a Hive World, or the Orks, or Dark Eldar etc. EDIT: In fact I recently read a far, far better but still silly metaphor for the Webway as the internet.

I didn't find it compelling, I found it ridiculous. He goes from unfounded assumption to unsupported opinion to rampant speculation while comparing them with whatever concept he can overgeneralise, simplify or misinterpret to fit the metaphor.

I mean right from the start the metaphor is based on faulty comparisons, that of GWs growth with the Great Crusade.

Then he talks about GW being backwards because in the last twenty years we've fought some wars, women have got equal rights (I guess that whole Edwardian suffragette movement and 60s secual revolution thing actually happened in the 90s) and the fact that two of the founding members have gone into computer games? What the hell is he smoking?

Then he starts spitting drivel about the GW model being flawed because it failed in the USA, as if GW were the only UK business that failed in the USA. Because Tesco totally isn't struggling in the USA either.

Bah I could go on but it isn't worth it, the man either delusional or deeply ignorant.


I'm not trying to rubbish you for finding it compelling, witeout, so don't go taking any of this personally.:) I'm not even saying the author is stupid or anything, just that this particular piece of just completely ridiculous on so many levels.

[DrLove42]

I skimmed. And by skimmed read the first 3 lines of each paprgraph

Utter cack. People are entitled to their opinions and all that, but that was pretty much just rubbish.

[Lord Azaghul]

** All comments made as I read the article**

Ah come on eldargal...we know you're a diehard GW fan girl (nothing wrong with that), but I think the sense of Irony is really poignant.

Look at this whole 'dreadfleet' business: they are directly trying to compete with spartan games. Its a format that is essentially non-standard for GW. Its the orginator imitating the imitator!

I say even look at the fluff: stagnation need to corruption, which leads to chaos...where are they taking the fluff - to chaos, where has the company been recently...in chaos! lol And where did the chaos come from: the over selfish overindulgent of fair skinned high minded peoples (elves) :P

You've got to love his STC anology: what have people been complaining about = the out dated GW business model!

Will the imperium ever be destroyed? No, just diminished.

I will say that I do not agree with his resolution, and other point I disagree on are customer service: gw still have great serve, but the product is no longer worth the price

I do agree with him on the 'stocking of stores' My FLGS can't get HALF the blisters and units that they could 2 years ago. Thank you GW Direct. :(

The personal story was a bit to much of a 'woe is me' rant...started to lose me there.

Then the chaos/internet part: accurate (to a point), but unnecessary. I'm mainly refering to the whole 'angry/rage no rationale' thing

Interesting read over all.

[eldargal]

GW had a fantasy naval game before Spartan Games ever existed, Man O'War. GW doesn't need to compete with Spartan Games, it is hundreds of times larger than Spartan Games.

GW has changed its business model several times, while never abandoning what works for it, names its retail chain. What exactly does he mean by the STC business model? Having a retail chain? It is GWs biggest asset, recruitment and sales in one box which have made GW the largest tabletop gaming company on the planet, larger than all its competitors put together. Hell even the business model in the US is changing, they sent Kirby over to sort it out, and the one man store model is new as well. The fact is GW do change and try new things, and generally people whine about them,forget about them and then ***** about GWs static business practise.:p

Items which weren't selling in sufficient quantities to justify shelf space have been moved to direct only, it makes sense for GW and is a minor inconvenience to everyone else.

Chaos/Internet is not accurate, it is ridiculous. The internet is chaotic, therefore it is Chaos! Simplistic beyond belief and as I said you could compare the internet to many other races. Or the webway, or the necrons or whatever else you like with equal validity. I mean he is comparing online nerdrage with Khorne, and the constant whining from people for whome nothing is every enough with exposing GWs weaknesses. His comparison with Nurgle is flawed, it isn't an anti-Gw pestilence on the internet, it is an echo chamber. Go on Warseer and look in the General discussion, it is the same dozen or so names that keep the whine threads going on and on and on, not some huge outpouring of dissatisfaction. I'm not even sure what the Slaanesh metaphor was, that the internet lets you see different stuff? How the hell is that Slaaneshi.

Let us look at another example of nerdrage. When WoW was launched, the forums were full of hate about the poor launch, predictions that the game would fail and all sorts of silliness. Look at it now. Yet the forums are still full ofnerdrage and hate, and always have been. Impotent little cretins love to get on the internet and whine about whatever is upsetting their pathetic little existence at that particular moment, it doesn't translate to any kind of accurate measure of dissatisfaction with a company or product.

The product not being worth the price is a subjective statement, personally I think it is worth the British price, I certainly wouldn't pay the Australian prices bu the US prices aren't too bad.

Actually I take it back, I think the writer is stupid.

[Lord Azaghul]

The product not being worth the price is a subjective statement, personally I think it is worth the British price, I certainly wouldn't pay the Australian prices bu the US prices aren't too bad.

Oh agree with the first part: to me subjectively, GW is about 40% over priced, and that's after internet discounts of 20-30% - and every time raise prices they push people like me further away from them, and more into other game systems... It still boggles my mind that army books (whfb) have more then DOUBLED in price in 4 years.

But hey I constantly complain about the price of gas too... and that I DO have to buy.

OT: I understand the authors frustrations (because I went through many of them myself - past tense there btw)

But the article was over done - and WAAAYYYY too long. ;)

[eldargal]

It was too long, I'd love to go through and write a point by point rebuttal all of all his speculation, conjecture, assumptions, ranting, fallacies and terrible logic but it is so long I simply can't justify doing something which will just put me in a really foul mood.:rolleyes:

I could forgive the length and difference of opinion if it were cleverly written or humorous, it is neither, so as far as I'm concerned it is just a waste of space.

This has nothing to do with my opinion of GW either, while I do believe they don't deserve half the mud thrown at them, they do deserve the other half. This article is just bad.

[whitestar333]

While I don't expect a blow-by-blow, I am curious about these flawed assumptions that he's making. I joined that hobby during the beginning of 4th edition, so I have to admit that I'm not too familiar with the company pre-2004, but I know that they have been around for a while and are way more popular in the UK. I've never been sure why, so his anecdotal evidence is something that I cannot prove one way or the other, so I'd be curious to here another perspective from across the big pond.

Similarly, I thought his perspective as a former GW employee leaves him privy to information with which I am not. Admittedly, I cannot prove his employment history (nor would I have the time/desire to do so), but there did seem to be some resonance with a very close friend of mine who was a GW manager for 6 years in Mass. Knowing what happened to the GW retail presence in Massachusetts in the last 8 years, a lot of what he said seemed very plausible. Again, alternative perspective is always encouraged.

[SirAngry]

I too would like to hear reasoned or even impassioned responses. To the article, its one of the reason I wrote it, because I hear people and indeed read rages on the internet an awful lot but people don't really articulate why. The article is pure opinion, mine, I say as much throughout. I don't present any of it as fact, I could however phone round any number of ex-employees and ask them whether some of my assertions ring true. I actually ran the article past a number of ex-employees and two current employees who asked me to post it. I too agree with Eldargal that there are holes that can be poked in some of it and I'll be doing some poking of them myself in a later blog. Sorry it proved to long for some of you but after 27 years of gaming there was a lot I wanted to get off of my chest. One thing though Eldargal the suffragettes didn't get women equal rights, those came in the UK at least in 1975 and to be fair not even the Sex Descrimination Act of 1975 gave women in the UK full equal right even though it stipulated so, there have been any number of legal amendments since. Also yep GW did have Man-o-War and it was ace, I'm sure my fleets are around at my mothers house somewhere, the GW were right to drop it as well, because having one blue 'sea' board in their stores caused no end of grief on games nights because MoW took way longer to play through than either 40k or WFB at the time and therefore meant less gamers could play. It also didn't really sell in enough volumes to make it a viable line for them to stock in the stores. As for use of metaphors, as anyone who has read many literary critiques you'll know they are fraught with dangers, even a poet as great as Wordsworth has fallen foul of imperfect metaphors, primarily for his 'I wandered lonely as a cloud' line in Dafodils, so I couldn't possibly hope to get one bang on perfect.

[DarkLink]

Frikin' english majors and metaphors...

[SirAngry]

Frikin' english majors and metaphors...

PMSL, I'm worse than that I actually studied neuropsychology. IF you think that was long best steer clear of my blog altogether its full of rambling nonsense!!! :P

[magickbk]

I skimmed barely enough to understand that he is angry at GW, seems to dislike the direction they take their games and background, and make points that if followed by the company, would actually see the games we play wiped off the face of the earth.

Taking that in stride, his observation, at least at face value, was correct at one point in time if not currently. GW modeled itself after the Imperium when I worked for them. Seriously. The Retail division org chart was on the Imperial Eagle, retail store staff were referred to as combat squads, with Staff members being marines, managers as sergeants, and new employees as Scouts. Each region of the world had its own Chapter, I was in Northeast US retail, therefore, a Blood Angel. I still carry a training card in my wallet that lists 'The Commissar's 10 Commandments of Customer Service'.

Many companies create a training and organizational regimen that is themed or otherwise bizarre. This is why Target refers to me as a 'guest' and not a customer.

Is anyone else starting to get a little tired of blogs and sites and forums continually being full of articles on how much GW sucks? If I wanted the digital equivalent of mobs with torches and pitchforks, I could head to the political news sites. I miss the days when the internet was full of user-created gaming content that didn't involve naked female marines and Tau, and angry rants.

[westside]

The whole anti GW rant is an example of group dynamics at it's lowest. Literally at some LGS and on the forums if you don't join in on the rants and hates you can find yourself pretty much ostracized. The way to being well liked is to throw out a lame 'failcast' comment and you gain instant admiration.

GW has always been expensive, back in the mid nineties in was expensive. (If you find an old blister, figure in the 400% rise in metal prices, and currency fluctuations the price has been rather consistant, perhaps even dropped)
Pretty much every minature (per detail-cast quality) costs roughly in the same 'ball park', then why the hate?

Perhaps the difference today is the Western economies are truly financially failing more potential customers. Back in the '90's I could alway put in a few more hours and earn the models I wanted, today I wouldn't want to have to rely on working extra hours to get an army together.

From my perspective, maybe all the whining and crying is really an expression of actual desire and fustration. You want something, but can't afford it, so it's easier to try and tell yourself you hate it. I don't care if two fleets and a rule book from another manufactures cost $130.00. Why don't I care? Because I don't want it anyway. There is little to no fluff, and no motivation to buy it (other than the LGS wishing they could sell a new game every week and other gamers who bought it need players for the other fleets)

My advise to all the haters (who if they really don't care about WHFB/40K why bother with the posturing??)
Maybe it's time to step back, evaluate where you are in life, perhaps make some life choices. If you don't like GW products, cool, enjoy another game. If you can't afford as many GW products as you would like maybe the fault lies with you (addictive personality-it's not called plastic crack for no reason)

[Sam]

You want to know what the flawed assumptions are? How about the Imperium having no competition? The Imperium is permanently on the brink of collapse because it has more competition than it can handle.

[Lord Azaghul]

Pretty much every minature (per detail-cast quality) costs roughly in the same 'ball park', then why the hate?

Perhaps the difference today is the Western economies are truly financially failing more potential customers. Back in the '90's I could alway put in a few more hours and earn the models I wanted, today I wouldn't want to have to rely on working extra hours to get an army together.

From my perspective, maybe all the whining and crying is really an expression of actual desire and fustration. You want something, but can't afford it, so it's easier to try and tell yourself you hate it. )

1) In my opinion you have given the best response to this thread. I award you 1 internets - us it well.

2)While I think you hit a on a few key points of the anti-gw angst, I think you missed the largest one = Betrayal.

Alot of folks feel down right betrayed by the GW. At least I did. And not just once or twice but multiple times.

These feelings are nothing new with fan-boys, nor are the seemingly over the top 'hate' of said fan boys
(and I'm thinking John Lennon's killer here - an extreme example, but it helps explain my point)

Many of our feeling (good or bad) come from the 'relationship' that we, as customers, have established with our hobby: You spending hundreds of dollars purchasing the models, hundreds of hours building and painting these models, hundreds of hour playing games with the same models, talking with friends about then...ect

That right there is a relationship.

The betrayal comes when you feel you've been 'cheated' somehow. When your book becomes obsolete, when already high prices raise and the product doesn't change, when it becomes apparent the YOUR force won't get any support for 5+ years...so you switch armies, tell yourself it'll be different...then it happens all over again, hundreds of dollars & hours, only to be 'let down' or 'hurt' all over again...

That right there is an abusive relationship.

Some people get out, stop the cycle...then the bitterness starts...

To stretch this analogy even further (and because I"m very amused now) GW has become to many players: the "typical' Male Jerk.
He only wants one thing.
He'll say anything to get it.
Once he's got it, he dumps you.
Every once in a while he'll call you, have a little fun, then leave before the alarm clock rings.

And by the time your done you just want to take a shower :D

[End of the World]

The real feeling of betrayal comes from convincing your game group to buy into the game at a ridiculously high price and then basically being the ******* when the game turns to ****. Nothing like helping GW basically run a con on your friends.

Now we're stuck playing magic :<

[SirAngry]

You want to know what the flawed assumptions are? How about the Imperium having no competition? The Imperium is permanently on the brink of collapse because it has more competition than it can handle.

Erm... I'm sure you didn't mean too but you've actually just proved my metaphor nicely for me. In the early days of the Imperium it expanded and crushed the opposition. Then it had no competition and stagnated and then we had the Horus Heresy and now the wolves are at the door so to speak. Much like the GW of today. I'm not trying to change anyones opinions, I have more than enough GW product to last me a lifetime, a few years back I set about a really huge hobby undertaking of doing the 1st, 2nd 4th (in drop pods) and 10th companies of the Ultramarines having previously only done Eldar, Orks and Nids. I'm still going with it!!! What I'm most concerned by is how many of the people I know and respect in the hobby are leaving never to return. I'm not seeing the fresh blood come in to replace them either. Their gripes are real to them and maybe none of you feel them, and if that's the case then good for you and I hope you're all enjoying you're gaming. Believe it or not I'm sick and tired of the rants but I was asked by people to put down why I'm so exasperated with the GW, so I did. Reality is its an opinion and not everyone can agree with it and I'd be highly disturbed if everyone did.

[SirAngry]

1) In my opinion you have given the best response to this thread. I award you 1 internets - us it well.

2)While I think you hit a on a few key points of the anti-gw angst, I think you missed the largest one = Betrayal.

Alot of folks feel down right betrayed by the GW. At least I did. And not just once or twice but multiple times.

These feelings are nothing new with fan-boys, nor are the seemingly over the top 'hate' of said fan boys
(and I'm thinking John Lennon's killer here - an extreme example, but it helps explain my point)

Many of our feeling (good or bad) come from the 'relationship' that we, as customers, have established with our hobby: You spending hundreds of dollars purchasing the models, hundreds of hours building and painting these models, hundreds of hour playing games with the same models, talking with friends about then...ect

That right there is a relationship.

The betrayal comes when you feel you've been 'cheated' somehow. When your book becomes obsolete, when already high prices raise and the product doesn't change, when it becomes apparent the YOUR force won't get any support for 5+ years...so you switch armies, tell yourself it'll be different...then it happens all over again, hundreds of dollars & hours, only to be 'let down' or 'hurt' all over again...

That right there is an abusive relationship.

Some people get out, stop the cycle...then the bitterness starts...

To stretch this analogy even further (and because I"m very amused now) GW has become to many players: the "typical' Male Jerk.
He only wants one thing.
He'll say anything to get it.
Once he's got it, he dumps you.
Every once in a while he'll call you, have a little fun, then leave before the alarm clock rings.

And by the time your done you just want to take a shower :D

At the risk of pimping my blog out even more, I too wrote an article months ago now discussing whether people were in an abusive relationship or not, please bear in mind that it was written with tongie firmly in cheek:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/07/are-you-in-abusive-relationship.html

[Drunkencorgimaster]

GW has always been expensive, back in the mid nineties in was expensive. (If you find an old blister, figure in the 400% rise in metal prices, and currency fluctuations the price has been rather consistant, perhaps even dropped)


Yo' Westie, there is a nice, big, bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Actually, thanks to the real estate bubble, the price has even dropped.

Seriously though, I agree with you that GW has always been a bit expensive compared to other miniatures and games. I remember even thinking that in the 80s. But lately...Damn!

[daboarder]

The real feeling of betrayal comes from convincing your game group to buy into the game at a ridiculously high price and then basically being the ******* when the game turns to ****. Nothing like helping GW basically run a con on your friends.


Yeah I know that feeling, did that with my cousin and her partner whose one of my best friends just before it all hit the fan in OZ, lucky for me their both savvy enough to find international sellers to buy from.

[westside]

Yo' Westie, there is a nice, big, bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Actually, thanks to the real estate bubble, the price has even dropped.

Seriously though, I agree with you that GW has always been a bit expensive compared to other miniatures and games. I remember even thinking that in the 80s. But lately...Damn!

Ok, just for kicks lets compare some prices:

GW: Battle Sisters (3 models-white metal) #99060108013 $5.75 each
Reaper: Farrah Sci Fi Heroine (1 model-white metal) #50238 $5.99 each
Privateer Press(via 3rd party online store): Blackfrost Shard (3 models-white metal?) #PIP73052 $7.19 each
Wyrd(via 3rd party online store): Colette Du Bois #WYR3024 $7.19 each


GW: Grey Knights (5 models and bits-plastic) #99120107002 $6.60 each
Infinity(via 3rd party online store): PanOceania Starter Pack (6 models) #COR280201 $6.66 each
Wyrd(via 3rd party online store): Colette Box Set (Showgirls 6 models) #WYR3029 $5.19 each
Privateer Press (3rd party): Khador: Assault Kommandos (6 models) # PIP33046 $4.66 each

I think the prices are pretty comparable, when the model size, sculpt detail, etc. are taken into account. Now that being said, no one, is telling people where to buy the minatures (I'm Ebay all the time), how to play the game (Epic, BFG, and Space Hulk for me), etc. I haven't played with the 28+mm miniatures since WHFB 5th edition, I'm a cheapskate and a perfectionist- I don't want to paint a whole army to my standards.

Both the players wants and GW desire to sell models have turned 40k from a skirmish game that was comparable to Warmahoards in scale and price into a pretty large (expensive) platoon level wargame (not a good idea in that scale, just my opinion). If people like the 'world' get together with your gaming group and play one of the other editions, heck play 'In the Emperors Name'. Why does it have to be new and shiny, get the minis on Ebay/Bartertown. If gamers want large scale conflict/game in the 40k universe, consider one of the versions of Epic (that's why GW orginally made it, the gamers rejected it)

I'm certainly not defending everything GW does, what they did to Specialist Games and Fanatic makes me mad as the Eye. Do to the lack of new minis the only regular money they get from me is through Black Library.

To wrap it up, my main point is, it's your money, your gaming time, there's alot of options (even for 40K/WHFB players), why spend so much energy in anger and complaining? If nothing else GW created and still support a really interesting 'universe' to game in, realistically people don't have to pay retail to enjoy it. It's really up to us.

[whitestar333]

Westside, I appreciate the effort that you invested into determining those prices for comparison (and I think they are useful), but that's not the point of the article. The point isn't that GW is price gouging, but rather that it's somewhat ironic that their own fluff for their 40k IP (note, not Fantasy) can be a good metaphor for what is happening to their company.

Yes, as hobbyists were are absolutely able to make our own decisions, but I think that Lord Azaghul was starting to get to the heart of the matter: it's a relationship. I think you'll find no one here who is complaining that GW is a terrible company or that we are raging against them, but rather expressing our sombre concerns and disappointment. I think we all WANT 40k to be something better than what that is (even if other people are already happy with it). I think that the article is an apt metaphor for the challenges that face the company and their attitudes towards resolving those challenges as of late.

Are we full of hate? I don't read that in the original article. Disappointment and sadness? Absolutely. That doesn't mean that other companies are perfect, but unless GW changes its approach to the issues that face the company, the future looks as grim as the plight of the Imperium.

[DarkLink]

PMSL, I'm worse than that I actually studied neuropsychology. IF you think that was long best steer clear of my blog altogether its full of rambling nonsense!!! :P

Oh, no, that was just in response to the general idea of GW's creation being a metaphor for their own position. I just like making fun of non-engineers:p.

[eldargal]

The problem I have is that your assessment of Games Workshop is highly coloured by your own personal opinion, and that in turn has led to you twisting both ends of the metaphor in order to get it to fit. Wordsworth was a poet, he wasn't comparing a successful, financial giant (in the tabletop games industry) to a stagnant, degenerate Empire. Whereas he used words to evoke an emotional response, your own emotions are what is driving this and your own negative experiences and opinions are leading you to many logical and factual errors not to mention drawing a very long bow in some of your comparisons.

Equality came in stages, and still has not been fully achieved. The fact remains much of the hard work that was recognised in 1975 was down in the preceding 80 years or so. Talking about equality, wars and whatnot to justify your claims of a changing environment was really nonsensical. Of course we are in a different environment, but there is still a market for tabletop games and Games Workshop is still the dominant power in the industry. Yes, there is more competition and that is only a good thing for both Games Workshop and the consumer, your assumption that it will hurt GW is erroneous. And so it goes, you make unsupported statements, assumptions about how Games Workshop operates and in some cases make factually innaccurate claims about Games Workshop in order to make your metaphor. Which in my view, makes it a complete failure as well as difficult to read and far too long. You also seem to be implying that by not following Livingston and Jackson into video games GW are pursuing an obsolete medium, which is just wrong. Ignoring the fact that GW is licensing computer games, if your implication were true than PP, Mantic and all the other companies would be equally guilty.

For example, your statement that GW hasn't changes its core rules since the beginning. What do you mean by core rules? 2nd edition and 5th edition 40k are entirely different beasts, what similarities there are coudl also be shared between Warmachine, Kings of War or even DnD. You make this claim like it is ab absolute fact but provide no supporting evidence. Then you talk about Randomhammer like it is objectively more random, when in fact all 8th edition did was make charges random, while eliminating things like guessing ranges. So on balance you could argue it is no more or less random than before, yet you talk about it like it is objectively completely random.

I could go on but there are just so many problems with it I just can't be bothered. Basically what you have done is write down your own, subjective personal opinion of Games Workshop with some poorly thought out comparisons to 40ks background. The result isn't much of an argument nor much of a metaphor, factor in the fact it is so poorly written it was a wholly unpleasant experience reading it.

It is half past six in the morning and I'm tired so this probably isn't the best response I could manage, but it really isn't worth much more than this.


I too would like to hear reasoned or even impassioned responses. To the article, its one of the reason I wrote it, because I hear people and indeed read rages on the internet an awful lot but people don't really articulate why. The article is pure opinion, mine, I say as much throughout. I don't present any of it as fact, I could however phone round any number of ex-employees and ask them whether some of my assertions ring true. I actually ran the article past a number of ex-employees and two current employees who asked me to post it. I too agree with Eldargal that there are holes that can be poked in some of it and I'll be doing some poking of them myself in a later blog. Sorry it proved to long for some of you but after 27 years of gaming there was a lot I wanted to get off of my chest. One thing though Eldargal the suffragettes didn't get women equal rights, those came in the UK at least in 1975 and to be fair not even the Sex Descrimination Act of 1975 gave women in the UK full equal right even though it stipulated so, there have been any number of legal amendments since. Also yep GW did have Man-o-War and it was ace, I'm sure my fleets are around at my mothers house somewhere, the GW were right to drop it as well, because having one blue 'sea' board in their stores caused no end of grief on games nights because MoW took way longer to play through than either 40k or WFB at the time and therefore meant less gamers could play. It also didn't really sell in enough volumes to make it a viable line for them to stock in the stores. As for use of metaphors, as anyone who has read many literary critiques you'll know they are fraught with dangers, even a poet as great as Wordsworth has fallen foul of imperfect metaphors, primarily for his 'I wandered lonely as a cloud' line in Dafodils, so I couldn't possibly hope to get one bang on perfect.

[Lord Anubis]

Ok, just for kicks lets compare some prices:

GW: Battle Sisters (3 models-white metal) #99060108013 $5.75 each
Reaper: Farrah Sci Fi Heroine (1 model-white metal) #50238 $5.99 each
Privateer Press(via 3rd party online store): Blackfrost Shard (3 models-white metal?) #PIP73052 $7.19 each
Wyrd(via 3rd party online store): Colette Du Bois #WYR3024 $7.19 each


GW: Grey Knights (5 models and bits-plastic) #99120107002 $6.60 each
Infinity(via 3rd party online store): PanOceania Starter Pack (6 models) #COR280201 $6.66 each
Wyrd(via 3rd party online store): Colette Box Set (Showgirls 6 models) #WYR3029 $5.19 each
Privateer Press (3rd party): Khador: Assault Kommandos (6 models) # PIP33046 $4.66 each

I think the prices are pretty comparable, when the model size, sculpt detail, etc. are taken into account.


Question, though... just for kicks... What are the unit sizes for those other models? I'm not familiar with those lines and honestly don't know.

Yes, three Battle Sisters seem like a deal compared to three Shards, but you can't use just three Sisters. You need to make a functional squad, which means at least two packs, possibly as many as four (with odd girls out now). If the Shards are a full-functional unit with just the three models... well, suddenly the scales have tipped quite a bit.

I don't think anyone has a problem with an individual model that costs six or seven dollars. I think they have a problem when filling a single Troops slot costs sixty or seventy dollars.

[pauljc]

Yeah, I'm with EldarGal. I read the whole damn thing and it was just a bunch of rediculous crap that could be applied to pretty much anything. GW really don't deserve half the wrap they get, but hating on the big guys is what the cool internet kids do these days. In fact, we all owe GW a huge debt of thanks for all they've done for this hobby.

Not to say that GW isn' weird, though. Back when I used to work for them, about 13 years ago, staff members had Astartes ranks. Managers were sergeants, Full-timers were Marines, and Part-timers were Scouts. I think it has become a little more professionally serious since then.

[eldargal]

Lord Anubis, army pricing is a valid concern, I wouldn't buy an SoB army at current prices either*. The problem with the comparison is that different game systems use different amounts of figures. For example you can buy a Warmachien starter set with five models for thirty pounds and play right away. But you can also buy a Necromunda gang with 8 models for twenty three pounds and play right away. GW is both cheaper per model and per force. You might need to buy a booster pack for nine pounds but how much more can you spend on Warmachine if you want?

Yes, you need a lot more models for a 40k or WFB army, but that is because it is a ruleset about armies clashing, not skirmishes. GW models are still cheaper on a per model basis, and you can always play Kill Team which is a lot of fun.


*Not because I can't afford it, but because I won't pay three pounds for a monopose model that is difficult to convert, will require thirty or more for a smallish army and will be replaced with plastics within 12 months (rumoured).

[pauljc]

The real feeling of betrayal comes from convincing your game group to buy into the game at a ridiculously high price and then basically being the ******* when the game turns to ****. Nothing like helping GW basically run a con on your friends.

Now we're stuck playing magic :<

Rediculously high prices? Compared to what, though? Considering the amount of R&D, staffing costs, overheads, materials, engineering and machines costs, I think the prices are reasonably - in the majority of cases. GW minis aren't mass-produced in China. They are produced in Nottingham. EU staffing costs re higher. Having seen and been a part of GW's great machine, I know for a fact that a brand new steel mould for a plastic box set can set them back well into the hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Then there's the investment in the new CAD 3D sculpting computers, taxes, vast shipping costs.. etc etc etc.

The point is, GW aren't gouging us. Not intentionally. We're talking about the highest quality miniature production, not sweat-shop produced crap. Sure GW put a tidy profit percentage onto their products, but think about how much they have to pay in costs as well.

Stuff costs what it costs for a reason. I run a LGS, and I so badly wish I could sell stuff the for the same price as companies like Maelstrom, but if I did, I'd simply be running at a huge loss.

The same goes for most products. A new iPad costs betwen €300-500. How much you reckon it costs to make? And those are mass-produced in Asia. ;)

[SirAngry]

The problem I have is that your assessment of Games Workshop is highly coloured by your own personal opinion, and that in turn has led to you twisting both ends of the metaphor in order to get it to fit. Wordsworth was a poet, he wasn't comparing a successful, financial giant (in the tabletop games industry) to a stagnant, degenerate Empire. Whereas he used words to evoke an emotional response, your own emotions are what is driving this and your own negative experiences and opinions are leading you to many logical and factual errors not to mention drawing a very long bow in some of your comparisons.

Equality came in stages, and still has not been fully achieved. The fact remains much of the hard work that was recognised in 1975 was down in the preceding 80 years or so. Talking about equality, wars and whatnot to justify your claims of a changing environment was really nonsensical. Of course we are in a different environment, but there is still a market for tabletop games and Games Workshop is still the dominant power in the industry. Yes, there is more competition and that is only a good thing for both Games Workshop and the consumer, your assumption that it will hurt GW is erroneous. And so it goes, you make unsupported statements, assumptions about how Games Workshop operates and in some cases make factually innaccurate claims about Games Workshop in order to make your metaphor. Which in my view, makes it a complete failure as well as difficult to read and far too long. You also seem to be implying that by not following Livingston and Jackson into video games GW are pursuing an obsolete medium, which is just wrong. Ignoring the fact that GW is licensing computer games, if your implication were true than PP, Mantic and all the other companies would be equally guilty.

For example, your statement that GW hasn't changes its core rules since the beginning. What do you mean by core rules? 2nd edition and 5th edition 40k are entirely different beasts, what similarities there are coudl also be shared between Warmachine, Kings of War or even DnD. You make this claim like it is ab absolute fact but provide no supporting evidence. Then you talk about Randomhammer like it is objectively more random, when in fact all 8th edition did was make charges random, while eliminating things like guessing ranges. So on balance you could argue it is no more or less random than before, yet you talk about it like it is objectively completely random.

I could go on but there are just so many problems with it I just can't be bothered. Basically what you have done is write down your own, subjective personal opinion of Games Workshop with some poorly thought out comparisons to 40ks background. The result isn't much of an argument nor much of a metaphor, factor in the fact it is so poorly written it was a wholly unpleasant experience reading it.

It is half past six in the morning and I'm tired so this probably isn't the best response I could manage, but it really isn't worth much more than this.

You clearly haven't got the main thrust of my argument, and that could be easily as much be my fault for writing the main article poorly as you say. Or you're deliberately missing many of the points I've raised. For instance in the same paragraph where I talk about both Livingston and Jackson I say I'm NOT saying the Games Workshop should move into computer games... on the contrary what they should do is look at the world around them and see what they're asking people to do now with the hobby. Its not just a money commitment anymore, which by the way I don't think is too much of an issue, although the GW do ask people to stump up more cash to get a complete army than many others, no its a huge time commitment too, and if they want to know why they're losing customers to smaller scale games its because people can get those on the table quicker (in terms of paintig etc.) and its this that is harming them the most.

As for the times have changed part I was trying to show how old the company is, the use of Equality for women was used to show a timeline, because the GW's founding only just pre-dated the Sex Descrimination Act 1975. Do you think BCFC Winning the Carling Cup was a big influence too or that I was trying to claim it was? Nope, timeline. That is all it was. In the 36 years they've been going the company has changed an awful lot but not as much in my humble opinion as the environment they find themselves in. I never once said we've got Equal rights for women Games Workshop needs to change!!! So please don't think that I did, or say that I did. I also didn't say competition will hurt them either in fact I say the absolute opposite I said the lack of competition up to this point has 'harmed' them. I'd also like to know what the factually inaccurate claims were because I've spoken long and hard to current and very recent employees about this article and actually changed much of its original content to match up with what they told me.

For instance I'm not sure if you are aware but there is a company going round asking ex-employees of the GW here in the UK, about their experiences of working in a one man shops. This is something I've heard from 3 people now. God knows why, perhaps its the GW checking up on ex staff to see if they could have done things better and retained them, perhaps its something altogether different. However I have watched many of my close friends get driven into the ground running these stores and the demands placed upon them, former managers of Sutton Coldfield and Stratford on Avon being just two that instantly spring to my mind.

As for Randomhammer, IF you think that flipping in random charges for pre-measuring is in some way equitable in terms of equaling out the randomness in the game, then I can only assume you don't play the game much. Charges and clever movement of units in general were what typified the game from day one (I actually played 1st ed fantast with my dad when young) and the introduction of random charges, which I know many people seem to like too, took all that away pretty much with one fell swoop. If people enjoy that then great, again go enjoy your hobby. However many people clearly don't and many of them are the games staunchest allies or supporters. WFB also asks you to roll way more dice than before, so the random quota is bound to go up. HOWEVER there was a reason for it, the GW had screwed up with the Dark Elves and Daemons in particular during 7th, the best way to redress this imbalance that was killing of 7th ed without asking those players with those armies to start again was to insert a little more random, its a crude way of bringing in game balance but from a purely mathematical basis its an effective one... I just personally don't like it.

Well you can't please everybody and I certainly didn't set out too. I'll take the fact that many current and recently past managers of GW have liked the article on Facebook and some even set it to their Facebook status as enough of a compliment. I'll also take the fact that ex-head office staffers such as Jake Thornton (he's Quirkworthy by the way) have also said its close to the mark as well, I'll take that as confirmation I did my research well enough... however you are bang on right about one thing though, its a purely opinion based piece, again I said as much throughout and more importantly in the very first paragraph. Personally I think you're letting your own personal opinions colour your response AND that's cool with me because that's what I did and that's what its all about this hobby, isn't it? I mean the passion we all have for it, because we all love it to bits don't we? I mean we must do look at the time and money we spend on it. I'd much prefer emotional responses because that's the mind frame I was in when I smashed this together and I actually thank you for taking the time to write a response that actually challenges me, rather than just agreeing with me, and yes I do mean that genuinely.

[Phototoxin]

[QUOTE=Lord Azaghul;158195
Ah come on eldargal...we know you're a diehard GW fan girl (nothing wrong with that), but I think the sense of Irony is really poignant.l.[/QUOTE]

And thus are biased as heck.

I think some interesting point were made and there are indeed elements of truth in it. Not literally true however. In fact one might say it was metaphorical... hmmm :rolleyes:

[Phototoxin]

Rediculously high prices? Compared to what, though? Considering the amount of R&D, staffing costs, overheads, materials, engineering and machines costs, I think the prices are reasonably - in the majority of cases. GW minis aren't mass-produced in China. They are produced in Nottingham. EU staffing costs re higher. Having seen and been a part of GW's great machine, I know for a fact that a brand new steel mould for a plastic box set can set them back well into the hundreds of thousands of pounds.


Mantic?

Yes they aren't as good on quality as some gw stuff but cost:wound marker ratio is pretty good. Heck we even see people using 'fillers' on the GW site...

[whitestar333]

I don't think that cost was really the point of the article, but on that topic I think that it really depends on where you live. It's my understanding that in the UK and EU the price of models is much more reasonable than it is elsewhere (compared to average wages).

I think that GW's international presence gives them some strength in their company, but is also a weakness due to their business model of needing retail stores. Why do they need a retail store? It has only killed them in Australia because they've had to hike up prices because the cost of doing business vs. their profit margins is higher (according to their own chairman). If they didn't have their own retail outlets and allowed the LGS community to stock their products then they could simply focus on making the best product instead of worrying about the retail scene. THAT, I think is relevant to the point being made in the article.

Perhaps the scene is different elsewhere but I personally witnessed two independent game stores go out of business because of GW tactics in Massachusetts, where they came in, claimed to be sending more customers to these stores, but instead syphoned off their sales while keeping a store in Harvard Square (which has VERY high rent) and constantly lost money. In the end, the local stores lost business and struggled to carry a product that once left them barely profitable, while GW essentially pissed their money away. Then, when all of the stores were gone, GW left because they couldn't afford the store frontage (starting with stores in malls and eventually the Harvard square store closed). Being close friends with these game store owners and a GW manager has given me the perspective of being disenchanted with GW business practices, and that is what I took away from the article.

It's not an argument, he's not trying to convince anyone that GW is bad, but merely stating his observations and opinions by connecting them to a metaphor. His perceived weakness of GW - and I completely agree - is that they are the biggest miniatures company, just how the Imperium is more massive than any other individual threat it may face (be it Tau, Eldar, Necrons, even the Tyranids).

[SirAngry]

I did post a more thorough response to Eldargal's post. But it seems its locked away by the moderators for some reason, I don't think I used any naughty words though. Any way hopefully it'll pop up online soon and I honestly want to say thanks to Eldargal for taking the time to write her thoughts down. I much prefer hearing people passionately disagreeing than just agreeing, because it makes you question your own feelings ad opinions. We're all biased and no matter what we say and do, our opinions do affect what we say and believe... I think its utterly impossible to be totally impartial. Yeah any way thanks for talking the time to respond, it was much appreciated... and yes I mean that genuinely.

[Lord Azaghul]

At the risk of pimping my blog out even more, I too wrote an article months ago now discussing whether people were in an abusive relationship or not, please bear in mind that it was written with tongie firmly in cheek:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/07/are-you-in-abusive-relationship.html


And I think you just gained a follower lol

[eldargal]

Is that the best you can do? I've already admitted that I don't believe GW deserves half the flak they get but that they do deserve the other half. I can make rational, cogent arguments as to why I think this. Am I biased? No, I can see when GW does something stupid and I have no hesitation in saying so, but I will not tolerate what I see as baseless attacks on GWs product or business practise anymore than I would tolerate baseless criticism of any other company with which I am familiar. I have defended Chapterhouse Studios, Avatars of War and Spartan Games no several occassions, for example.

I am not criticising this 'metaphor' because it is anti-Gw, I am criticising it because I see it as innaccurate, simplistic, illogical and subjective. Frankly for you to dismiss the points I have raised in this thread simply as bias with no explanation is more reprehensible than anything SirAngry wrote however misguided.


And thus are biased as heck.

I think some interesting point were made and there are indeed elements of truth in it. Not literally true however. In fact one might say it was metaphorical... hmmm :rolleyes:

[End of the World]

Rediculously high prices? Compared to what, though? Considering the amount of R&D, staffing costs, overheads, materials, engineering and machines costs, I think the prices are reasonably - in the majority of cases. GW minis aren't mass-produced in China. They are produced in Nottingham. EU staffing costs re higher. Having seen and been a part of GW's great machine, I know for a fact that a brand new steel mould for a plastic box set can set them back well into the hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Then there's the investment in the new CAD 3D sculpting computers, taxes, vast shipping costs.. etc etc etc.

The point is, GW aren't gouging us. Not intentionally. We're talking about the highest quality miniature production, not sweat-shop produced crap. Sure GW put a tidy profit percentage onto their products, but think about how much they have to pay in costs as well.

Stuff costs what it costs for a reason. I run a LGS, and I so badly wish I could sell stuff the for the same price as companies like Maelstrom, but if I did, I'd simply be running at a huge loss.

The same goes for most products. A new iPad costs betwen €300-500. How much you reckon it costs to make? And those are mass-produced in Asia. ;)

You can attempt to rationalize the high prices as much as you want, but when you have a life beyond gaming that includes a wife and other interests the price is absurdly high. I realized this while trying to save for an engagement ring and start a space marines army at the same time. When it really started to effect my game group is when the radically overpowered codexes would come out and you'd have to buy a fleet of new models for your army in order to stay current against whatever the flavor of the overpowered month is.

I don't care if 40k costs what it costs, magic and other games are FAR more cost effective to play casually among friends. Now if only it wasn't so hard to convince the group to play Malifaux, which costs FAR less than 40k ever would. (Got an entire GW case full of Malifaux minis for the price of one full squad of lootas)

I don't know what your LGS is like or why I'd pay increased prices to shop there rather than say the internet, but suffice it to say I probably won't start now. Ever since my friends and I graduated from college we haven't needed to hang out in ratty game stores to throw dice around. This is because we, you know, moved out of our parents house.

[Lord Azaghul]

Is that the best you can do? I've already admitted that I don't believe GW deserves half the flak they get but that they do deserve the other half. I can make rational, cogent arguments as to why I think this. Am I biased? No, I can see when GW does something stupid and I have no hesitation in saying so, but I will not tolerate what I see as baseless attacks on GWs product or business practise anymore than I would tolerate baseless criticism of any other company with which I am familiar. I have defended Chapterhouse Studios, Avatars of War and Spartan Games no several occassions, for example.

I am not criticising this 'metaphor' because it is anti-Gw, I am criticising it because I see it as innaccurate, simplistic, illogical and subjective. Frankly for you to dismiss the points I have raised in this thread simply as bias with no explanation is more reprehensible than anything SirAngry wrote however misguided.

Eldargal...with all due respect, you are extremely biased toward GW!
...it seems like you would give you last to defend GW...no matter what they did.

And hey that's great - you're really passionate about the company.

But metaphors aren't perfect, and he DOES make some legitimate points - remember there IS a reason (rational or otherwise) why players do leave companies, and customers drop services/product (looking at you netflix!)
Much of what consumers do is built more off of an emotional response rather then a rational one!
:p

[eldargal]

Why? Provide some evidence. You want to talk about GW prices? They are expensive, and the prices they charge outside Europe are ridiculous. Finecast? Quality control is apalling and the price rise was completely unjustified. Letting some stores not allow SG games? Ridiculous. Etc. I'm more than happy to state my opinion on specific GW policies and why I think they are or are not justified. But unlike most people on these forums I actually have some inkling of how a corporation operates and I'm not so delusional to think that a corporate entity owes me anything for buying their product.

Of course players leave companies, they always have. Back in the 80s my brothers built up a fine collection of Ral Partha, Citadel etc miniatures by buying the collections of friends and friends brothers when they quit. The fact is few players stay beyond a few years, you have to keep recruiting more and this is what GW does superbly. Many of those they recruit into tabletop gaming go on to support other system as well, or even instead, of GW. Games Workshop is the crux of this hobby in Britain and Europe, and even in the USA where 40k still remains the highest selling tabletop gaming range (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/20744.html). Other companies rely on GW for much of their custom, how many of us would hear about Mantic, or Privateer Press, or Avatars of War without patronising GW forums?

[End of the World]

Other companies rely on GW for much of their custom, how many of us would hear about Mantic, or Privateer Press, or Avatars of War without patronising GW forums?

Might I recommend Tabletop Gaming News, The Miniatures Page and Miniature Review (now on blogspot for some dumb reason) for non-GW gaming related information. This is where I've been reading about new stuff for years, ever since Dakka turned into a GW-hate-circle-jerk and Warseer is downright stagnant.

[eldargal]

Oh I check Tabletop Gaming News regularly, the fact remains I and many others would only here about it through a GW dominated forum, as this one is. Whomever reads your suggestions and didn't know about them will have found it via their interest in GW products.:)

[SirAngry]

Oh I check Tabletop Gaming News regularly, the fact remains I and many others would only here about it through a GW dominated forum, as this one is. Whomever reads your suggestions and didn't know about them will have found it via their interest in GW products.:)

You make a good point and its one I make time and time again, and its also the cause of much anguish when I see them doing things that I perceive to be potentially detrimental to their role as a vital 'gateway' if you will to our hobby. Like it or loathe it a healthy GW is vitally important to the continued success of the broader hobby. I remember though a time as a small kid when my dad used to take me into GWs and they'd stock other peoples products, they were system-agnostic at the start. Do I lament that change of direction that took them down being the Whittards Teas of the wargaming world? Yes and no, yes because they killed of effectively some pretty cool products and ruined parts of my dads hobby at the time and no because it allowed their own design team to create the awesome games they did. Without them taking that decision WFB and 40k would not be where they are now. However times do change and I think the various facets of their business are now starting to hamper each others performance. I'm sure you won't be interested but I'll be posting my musings on that shortly as well as my hopes for the Hobbit license and what they do with that. Cheers.

[Lockark]

The star wars prequels are a metaphor for George Lucas.

[Gotthammer]

For me the main issue it the formatting. The large blocks of text pushed up against the images makes it really hard to read.

I'd space the text out more, put the images as breaks rather than indents, and probably split the article over a couple of posts.

Still, I'm going to give it another go tomorrow - I might cut and paste it into another program to read it. From waht I got through it looks similar to a series I've been doing (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/search/label/40k%20Redesign), if not exactly at least in motivation.