Jet Bikes!

[Machinator]

So another project I’m working on….

Far too long ago I was asked about building a squad of jet bikes for a client that turned into a perpetually on the back burner project as I had few ideas at the time on how I wanted to do one. Even after researching the designs in the Horus Heresy art books along with numerous third party sources I could come up with little on how to do my own take on it. In the end I wanted it to be a somewhat generic model that I could sell in my store that was useable across many game systems and not just for those seven foot tall genetically enhance super warriors we all know and love. But as luck would have it the client was extremely patient and I eventually wore down and just started it.

The trick has been coming up with the front end. As with a car this is usually its most striking feature and I wanted to make sure I got it right. First off, I wanted it big and intimidating and pictured it as a mechanical shark swimming through the skies. Finally after starting and restarting the project six or seven times I have something I like:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1920.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1918.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1921.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1919.jpg

It’s not much yet but it’s a start. As for the rest of it, once the center section is done I plan to give it a sexy rear end with turbine engines on either side, a set of stubby wings, a tail, and three huge jet exhausts coming out the rear. So what do you think so far?

As always, more to come….

[Grailkeeper]

It certainly looks shark like, have you considered bolter barrels in the eyes? Have you seen these jet bikes http://grendelslair.org/PHWorldeaters.htm They might be able to inspire you.

[Machinator]

It certainly looks shark like, have you considered bolter barrels in the eyes?

That's the plan :)

Just haven't gotten to it yet....

[fuzzbuket]

wow awsome! :P are we gettinmg custodes to ride thes things!? still that is amazing bit of work!

-fuzz

p.s. i tried making a plasticard tank a week ago, you make these things look too easy :P

[Machinator]

wow awsome! :P are we gettinmg custodes to ride thes things!? still that is amazing bit of work!

You'll have to talk to Scribor about getting Custodes model to ride them. I'll just make the bikes ;)


p.s. i tried making a plasticard tank a week ago, you make these things look too easy :P

Scratch building tanks is never easy. I just have a lot of experience ;)

The important thing is never let a project intimidate you into not trying!

[Tynskel]

yeah, I use plasticard for models that I am converting--- even then, it takes a lot of patience. I recommend to draw what you want first, then try to make it.

I have horrible drawing skillz, but I always draw what I want first, so I have a guideline to begin from.

As for the jetbikes: I like these so far! Are these for an escort for Sammeal?

[Meph]

That certainly looks like a good design to with. One suggestion is perhaps to incorporate more of a hint of an eagle's beak right on the front end. Nothing to large though.

[Firebird]

I like it so far i cant wait to buy 30 of them!

[Machinator]

Well someone put the idea in my head last week about doing a more "eagle"-like front end on the jetbike and that got me thinking. After much internal debate I decided “Why not?” and set out to build it, and lo and behold it actually turned out really nice.

Of course you know what that means now, don't you? I now have to offer TWO jetbikes so that people can have the vicious "shark" design or the more elegant "eagle" design. Just what I need, more work....

Oh, there are pics:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1926.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1929.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1927.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1928.jpg

Hopefully next week I can get back to working on the body along with a couple of engine designs.

[Meph]

My my, that does look nice! ^^

[SotonShades]

eagle for me, but both look fantastic. can't wait to see how the rest of the bikes turn out :)

[Machinator]

More updates today. I've been able to flesh out more of the middle and rear sections and it's really starting to take shape. Once I figure out how I want ther rear section to look I'll be able to move onto the engines.

Which brings up the next question: What should I name these things? (i.e something non-WH40K specific)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1936.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1939.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1937.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1938.jpg

[Grailkeeper]

Jetbike isn't necessarily very 40k specific but you could try Hoverbike or Jetcycle.

[Meph]

Indeed.
And I would stay away from names such as Steel Hover Pony and such...

[Machinator]

I don't know, Hover Steel Death Pony does have a nice ring to it ;)

Nah, I'm look for more descriptive terms like Sky Shark or Falcon.

[Meph]

How about Peregrine? Or Garuda, half man & half eagle, the riding beast of Vishnu.

[Machinator]

How about Peregrine? Or Garuda, half man & half eagle, the riding beast of Vishnu.

There we go! Those are the kind of names I'm looking for :)

[Drew da Destroya]

I'd second Peregrine... falcons are badass.

Mako could also work, if you want Shark-themed.

[Meph]

The more I let it roll around in my head, the more Garuda sounds appropriate. peregrine is a wicked name as well, but somehow it conjures up an image more like a fighter or attack craft. the name of a mythical riding beast suits a jetbike quite nicely.

other mythical riding beasts:
Krute: Indonesian half-bird, akin to Garuda
Hercinia: a bird with glowing feathers from Medieval bestiaries.
Pegasus
Wyvern
...

Some interpretations of Garuda:

http://blog.baliwww.com/wp-content/photos/garuda_akirasek.jpg
http://www.beyondhollywood.com/uploads/2006/01/Garuda-dvd.jpg
http://www.nakbali.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/garuda-statue2.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/191/9/5/King_of_Garuda_by_Jessada_Nuy.jpg

[Machinator]

I like Mako for the shark one. Garuda and peregrine sounds good too.

A name suggested on another site for the eagle version was the Talon Assault Speeder.

[Meph]

Assault Speeder has a nice ring to it. :D

So...

Mako Assault Speeder
Garuda Assault Speeder
Peregrine Assault Speeder
Talon Assault Speeder

Oh, maybe another one; Zephyr! ^^

[Machinator]

Nah, not Zephyr. My parents used to own a Mercury Zephyr and it was a piece of s**t!

[Meph]

:D
http://www.animaljimracing.com/images/zeke_zephyr.jpg

[Machinator]

Yeah, ours was a station wagon ;)

[Machinator]

Work continues today with the rear section and on the jet engines. I made a few modifications to the rear to make it look a little more streamline. But the big project was a pair of engines for the two types. The first is a turbine and the second has a grated cowl similar to the front intakes. Both will use a jet nozzle I turned on my lathe out of a piece of ABS plastic.

Little by little it's coming together....

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1944.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1943.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1946.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_1947-1.jpg

[Morgan Darkstar]

Raptor Assault Speeder

[Machinator]

Well it's been another busy two days but the masters are finally done! So without further ado let me present to you the components for the Talon and Mako Assault Speeders:

The front ends:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1987.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_2000.jpg

The jet engines:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1992.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1993.jpg

[Machinator]

The main section:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1989.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1990.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1991.jpg

[Machinator]

The handle bars:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1994.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1995.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1996.jpg

And finally the whole assembly:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_1997.jpg

Next up I have to make the first set of molds so that I can make enough copies for the production molds. With any luck these will be in my store in early December.

[Meph]

Good stuff man, good stuff. :D

[SotonShades]

Looking grand mate :) really lookingforward to seeing the whole bikes assembled. Are they going to be compatible with the biker space marine componants? If so, I may be starting a ravenwing army sooner than I would have thought...

[Machinator]

Looking grand mate :) really lookingforward to seeing the whole bikes assembled. Are they going to be compatible with the biker space marine componants? If so, I may be starting a ravenwing army sooner than I would have thought...

Yep, I designed it such that just about anything should fit on there, including space marine bikers ;)

[Machinator]

The Talon Assault Speeder:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2003.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2001.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2004.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2008.jpg

[Machinator]

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2005.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2006-1.jpg

And the Mako Assault Speeder:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2010.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2009.jpg

[Machinator]

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2012.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2013.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2015.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2014-1.jpg

So what do you guys think?

[JxKxR]

I think they are SWEET! They definitely put the chapter house jet bikes to shame.

[Meph]

They look very good indeed in an undercoat. The models have good proportions and lines, and they have the right 40K flavour.

One thing that jumps to the eye though is that with the marine mounted, it's somewhat detracting that the backpack of the marine does not sit against the back of the seat which makes it feel just that tiny bit out of scale.
Just a suggestion, but what look very cool would be perhaps some small frame that's mounted on the back 'hump', something that locks the backpack into place. Nothing too large or clunky, just like a brace or two that can hold the shape of the backpack. It would give the whole model just that extra bit of plausibility, and convey the notion that the marine would never be thrown of the jetbike during hard maneuvres.

[plawolf]

I really like the first one! The shaping of the front to look like an Eagle's head is a brilliant idea.

[SotonShades]

Similar Comments to Meph really. Both look absolutely stunning. When I have a few more pennies behind me I may just have to get my hands on some of these. Only problem would be the seat looking a bit too long, though that'd easilly be fixed for me by chopping 3 seat cushion segmeant's length outh of the cockpit section and lowering the rear bulckhead/seat to fit under the back pack of the marine rider (probably still leaving the upward pointing side exhaust section to keep the bulk around that area.) Only other point would be that I personnally would prefer a slightly chunkier/more future-backwardish console. No idea if that makes sense to anyone but me, but oh well lol.

Fantastic job, even outdoing some of your work on superheavies (and from me, that really is a mahoosive compliment :D) so top marks all round. How much are these terrifying constructs going to be selling for? Also, will the Engines from the Mako be availible with the prow/head from the Talon and visa versa?

[dwez]

Love the shape of the jets on the Talon, the 'coffin' shape and the way the lines flow out the back of the exhausts. However, I think the Mako is the better model. It's slightly smaller and better balanced with the rider and the traditional jets just look cooler and less bulky. Awesome effort all round.

[Machinator]

Yeah I see your points about the seat. I'm thinking I might get rid of the angled cushion and replace it with something else.

I cannot get to space marine specific as this is meant to be a generic model for any 25 to 30mm games But I can come up with something that makes the model better :)

[Meph]

Naah, no worries. Something that would accidentally 'fit' the backpack is no different than a set of tracks or turrets that 'happen' to fit certain other models, no? :D

[Machinator]

Naah, no worries. Something that would accidentally 'fit' the backpack is no different than a set of tracks or turrets that 'happen' to fit certain other models, no? :D



Don't worry, I have an idea ;)

[scadugenga]

Wow, what a fantastic job!

That is one rockin' machine you have created there.

Although I do agree that the seat needs to be shortened a bit--should be interesting to see what you have in mind.

[MaxKool]

Those are awesome, Just enuf "eagle look" to the front end without it being OTT birdy.
Wicked job man... cant wait to see more.

[Bigred]

I like that you have left some large flat areas for folks to customize it with their own livery. Good job there.

If possible, I might offer it as a mix and match kit with both main hull and engine options available.

Great stuff Machinator!

[Machinator]

The wait is nearly over. I cleaned up the first casts, made some modifications to the seat based on feedback, and am now in full production mode.

The first batch of Mako and Talon Assault Speeders will go on sale in my eBay store on Friday December 16th at 7:00 Eastern Standard Time. I will also have a limited number of GW Space Marine Bike Riders for sale.

The Mako Assault Speeder:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_2042.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_2040.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_2051.jpg

[Machinator]

The Talon Assault Speeder:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_2037.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_2035.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/IMG_2034.jpg

Get them while you can! :)

[Snyderson]

Really awesome! Did you try a "fin" on the Mako or was that a bit too much? Just wondering... ;)

[Machinator]

Really awesome! Did you try a "fin" on the Mako or was that a bit too much? Just wondering... ;)

Thanks! I thought it would have been too much. This thing is crazy enough as is :)

[SotonShades]

I do hope I get enough money for my birthday and Christmas to buy a squad of these (and possibly Sammael to lead them)!

Very Very Awesome :D

[Machinator]

Well a number of people have been asking me about making another variant of the assault speeder that looks a bit more like the one seen in those art books about some guy stuck on a gold toliet and his son who's suffering from daddy issues. So I finally sat down and started gluing plastic together. Here's what I have thus far:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2161.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2164.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2163.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2162.jpg

Once this is finished I'll be making a matching set of engines to go along with it. The rest will use the same bits as the other assault speeders. As always, much to do....

[celestialatc]

That looks amazing! Great job!

[SotonShades]

Grand job as always. I have my jetbike army planned and they will deffinitely be my next project (after I finish my KoptaForce... I'm not at all going through a jetbike themed mid-hobby-life crisis...) which unfortunately does mean having to wait until I start earning some pennies. A pretty decent sum will be winging their way to you for these fantastic creations though!

[Optimus Prime]

I like that.

[Shadow Puppet]

You know, I actually prefer the first two sets over this new one. From the pictures it looks like ti sticks out more and makes the Whole jetbike look front heavy and a little off balance. I really like the eagle head front, but i also prefer the mako rear. I think that you should offer this all as one single combo kit, or sell the parts individually so people can piece together the parts they want.

[Machinator]

Work has been going slow but there is progress! The engine is mostly done, just needs the detail. I'll be adding some small wings onto them as well. They should be ready by late April.

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2165.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2166.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2167.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2168.jpg

[SotonShades]

grand job as always mate!

[energongoodie]

This is a great thread. :)

[LittleSilverGuys]

Do these come assembled, or do I have the option of mixing kits?

[Machinator]

Here are a couple of teaser pics of the Thunder variant Assault Speeder. The engines on this project have been giving me nothing but problems in how they look, but I finally came up with something that looks good.



This isn't quite the finished product let. I still need to make the prototype molds, do some finally clean up and modifcations, then it's the production molds. But it shouldn't be long now....



http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2338.jpg



http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2339.jpg

[Machinator]

Well the production molds for the Thunder variant should be done this week but I thought I'd share something else I'm working on....



http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2340.jpg



http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2341.jpg



http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/IMG_2342.jpg



Oh yes, the Heavy Assault Speeder is coming to life! This version will allow you to have a second model behind the pilot that can be anything from a character to a trooper with a heavy weapon.



Still a lot to do but it's coming along nicely. With any luck these too will be available by the end of the month.

[Machinator]

Well the wait is longer than I anticipated but they're finally done and now available. I give you the Thunder Assault Speeder!

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/Thunder2.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/Thunder3.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/Thunder4.jpg

But that's not all....

[Machinator]

I also give you the Heavy Assault Speeders!

The Thunder:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyThunder2.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyThunder3.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyThunder4.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyThunder6.jpg

[Machinator]

The Mako:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyMako2.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyMako3.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyMako4.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyMako6.jpg

[Machinator]

And finally The Talon:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyTalon2.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyTalon3.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyTalon4.jpg

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders/HeavyTalon6.jpg

[Cow]

These are beautiful I want them so bad

[isotope99]

I love the one man version, really crisp casting.

The two man I'm sure will look better with two people actually in it. At the moment I'm getting intergalactic newspaper / pizza delivery boy vibes from it ;).

The wolf/eagle/shark thing works great. Subtle enough not to be overpowering but different enough to add variety.

[Verilance]

Not really wanting to start the debate here but these look so much better than another jetbike model I have seen :D if there were rules for Sisters on bikes I would buy them today :D

[SotonShades]

Well it has been a long time coming, but I finally placed my order today!

Looking forward to see what I can do with these beasts :D

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

These look fantastic, really wish I'd seen 'em before I ordered bits to build jetbikes! You've got quite the talent with plasticard there.

[Meph]

Cool, nice chariot feel. I'm quite curious to see what they look like with marines on them.

[DarkDesigner]

This thread needs to be stickied :) These are awesome mate!

[Machinator]

Time for a little thread necromancy, but with good reason :)

After two longer years they're back and better then ever! I dug up the old masters, spruced them up a bit, and now they're available again.

http://stores.ebay.com/Blood-and-Skulls-Industry/Assault-Speeders-/_i.html?_fsub=11256801012

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%201_zpsywa3p7vc.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%201_zpsywa3p7vc.jpg.html)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%202_zps7byhetai.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%202_zps7byhetai.jpg.html)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%204_zpszgpuks9y.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%204_zpszgpuks9y.jpg.html)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%203_zpsuobxjrob.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%203_zpsuobxjrob.jpg.html)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%206_zpszwdv3xrm.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%206_zpszwdv3xrm.jpg.html)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%207_zpstdj9b1e5.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%207_zpstdj9b1e5.jpg.html)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%209_zpssoirmi1i.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%209_zpssoirmi1i.jpg.html)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%2010_zpsazbeutex.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%2010_zpsazbeutex.jpg.html)

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/machinator248/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%205_zpsjzsmr0th.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/machinator248/media/Assault%20Speeders-%20NEW/Assault%20Speeder%205_zpsjzsmr0th.jpg.html)

[SotonShades]

This is annoyingly good timing as I have cause for getting a new jet bike...

Looks fantastic as always. Are you planning on bringing back the other designs as well?

[Machinator]

This is annoyingly good timing as I have cause for getting a new jet bike...

Looks fantastic as always. Are you planning on bringing back the other designs as well?

Yes, the Mako and Talon will be undergoing a refresh and returning in the coming months as well. Not sure if I'll bring back the chariot version as that was not a particularly good seller.

[SotonShades]

Yes, the Mako and Talon will be undergoing a refresh and returning in the coming months as well. Not sure if I'll bring back the chariot version as that was not a particularly good seller.

Real shame. Everyone who's seen mine with the Chaplain seems to love it! But I can understand it from your side of the sale.