Future Specialist Game releases a la Space Hulk and Dreadfleet.

[eldargal]

In light of Man O'War 2.0 aka Dread Fleet, I thought I'd post a couple of rumours I've heard:

First, there is a new version of Blood Bowl being planned, no idea what stag it is at. A release next year as a 25th anniversary edition seems logical.

Speculation: Current Blood Bowl teams may be converted to Finecast to go with the plastic teams included in the box.

Second, there is a new edition of Warhammer Quest either being worked on or planned. No more details than that.

Speculation: The basic warriors and all the monsters in multi-part plastic, card dungeon tiles as per Space Hulk, perhaps some plastic furnishings as well. Rules for all the old characters and whatnot included and the models re-released in Finecast.

The above two rumours have been corroborated by a reliable Warseer rumourmonger and come from both two of my sources as well.

Third, some are hinting that Dread Fleet may see some expansions in the future, but this is not something I've heard anything about.

Fourth, a new edition of Mordheim is in the very early planning stages, it will include some plastic warbands, buildings and tokens and will be accompanied by a conversion of teh current mordheim range (or parts of it) to Finecast. No corroboration on this, I'd like to believe it but it seems a tad ambitious.

All these are consistent with a possible revamping of the SG range. One off releases of rules enabling current, low selling SG ranges to be used again. No word on any of the 40k SGs.

As always, take with a grain of salt until you get official word from GW.

[energongoodie]

I love Blood Bowl as it is so only a little bit excited about that one.

A new Warhammer Quest would be awesome! very interested. It was fantastic.

I never got to play Mordheim but any new games are good and I will be in their like swim wear :)

[Grailkeeper]

Whilst some of the Blood bowl teams are realtively new (ogres etc) most of those sculpts are probably older than I am, I think that most teams seriously need to be updated before being released in Finecast.

[Wildeybeast]

I think it is interesting, though all those projects would be more ambitious than either space hulk of seahammer. Not only does it involve finecasting everything, but you would have to do new buildings (I'm guessing that given the standards of scenery now, the card buildings would look pretty crap). That is going to massively increase the cost to both make and retail. Also, there are numerous expansions in the form of additional warbands/teams/heroes, as well as things like Lair of the Orc lord that would need taking into account. There are lot of extra rules that have accumulated over the years. I for one will be pretty narked if I can't use my Imperial noble and Warrior priest in newquest. So that means either taking into account all the extras available in the rules in the main book, or a whole lot of FAQing.

I'm not saying these won't happen, just that any of those games represents a significant step up from what has gone before. These are going to involve a lot of extra work and as such, I can't see limited releases like SH and DF making enough money for them. GW has been content to let the SG range lurk in the attic with a few diehards like myself feeding it fishheads whilst they focus on what makes money (Space Marines). It would represent a significant change in ethos for not just the SG's but the design studio as a whole. A change I for one would welcome, but I won't hold my breath.

[eldargal]

Well, the Finecasting is mostly speculation, I say mostly because I doubt GW will want loads of expensive metal sitting around forever. Mordheim is also the least likely to happen, based on conversations with other reliable rumourmongers.

Even ignoring Finecast, you release a special edition of BB with some new plastic teams, perhaps four given the amount of models GW can stick in a box. Or two and a plastic stadium. You include the rules for all the other teams, and people will buy it and hopefully some of the old teams. No ongoing support required, but it could make them more money.

I see a similar situation for Warhammer quest (bearing mind this is all speculation), release a box with half a dozen adventurer models but rules for all the old ones they used to sell. Include rules for monsters available in the main Warhammer range and you have another one off release with no ongoing support that could boost sales of other items.

[Grailkeeper]

What about Dark future? I still have one of the novels where Elvis is a bounty hunter in the 90s. Very strange stuff.

[westside]

The one off box sets have (so far) always been released in the 'Gaming' section of GW's site.

Neither Space Hulk, nor Dreadfleet were or are considered Specialist Games.

I guess GW couldn't abide if anyone that wanted a limited release game recieved a 'forced' exposure to the Specialist Games line by selling the special release in the Specialist Games section. :confused:

It would be nice if GW gave the Specialist Games some positive attention.

But if and when they do, if they continue to follow their self imposed policy of not mentioning/promoting Specialist Games and most importantly, not allowing company and independent stores to stock the product corporate managenments belief that Specalist Games won't sell (profitably enough to take time and sales away from 40k and WFB that is) will be proven correct in the typical self fullfilling prophetic manner.

[eldargal]

Yes, but Bloodbowl and Mordheim are both in the SG section and the rumours concern them. Hence the future in the title.;)

Also they do mention SGs in the GW blog from time to time.

[westside]

Yes, Games Workshop has mentioned SG once or twice this year on the blog, think they gave it a paragraph. :eek: More surprisingly Specialist Games had intro tables at Games Day in Chicago, considering the lack of official enthusiam, I'm not really sure why they did that. I appreciate that GW and Forgeworld even manufacture miniatures still. Every so often I can't find what I want on Ebay and I buy from their online store.

What put Specialist Games in a coma is that they don't have intro box sets, and won't allow GW/independent stores to sell the games (instead Spartan Games, etc. fill that niche). All the excuses in the world won't fly in my mind (except the explanation that when compared to effort (time invested) and results (money earned) the larger scale can't be beat).

The only GW games I play are Specialist (and some Space Hulk now and then). I really enjoy the 'worlds' GW has created, but personally I'm not really into 'skirmish' games at all. If they didn't have Epic and BFG I would probably just play historicals and get my 40K fix from Black Library.

Frankly, I think it's been so long since GW has been involved I question if the people who actually play SG games would even welcome an 'intrusion' by GW. SG players are kinda like a colony that has been abandoned by the homeland. I get the feeling we have become pretty independent. New models would be appreciated, rule interference would at best probably be ignored or at worst responded to with the typical overwrought internet hostility.

[DrLove42]

Actually they dedicated a whole days blog to BFG earlier in the year

Having just gotten into it (shockingly) i'd like a Necromunda update

GW should just stop letting Jervis write codexes and just get him onto the SG's

[Wildeybeast]

Yes, Games Workshop has mentioned SG once or twice this year on the blog, think they gave it a paragraph. :eek: More surprisingly Specialist Games had intro tables at Games Day in Chicago, considering the lack of official enthusiam, I'm not really sure why they did that. I appreciate that GW and Forgeworld even manufacture miniatures still. Every so often I can't find what I want on Ebay and I buy from their online store.

What put Specialist Games in a coma is that they don't have intro box sets, and won't allow GW/independent stores to sell the games (instead Spartan Games, etc. fill that niche). All the excuses in the world won't fly in my mind (except the explanation that when compared to effort (time invested) and results (money earned) the larger scale can't be beat).

The only GW games I play are Specialist (and some Space Hulk now and then). I really enjoy the 'worlds' GW has created, but personally I'm not really into 'skirmish' games at all. If they didn't have Epic and BFG I would probably just play historicals and get my 40K fix from Black Library.

Frankly, I think it's been so long since GW has been involved I question if the people who actually play SG games would even welcome an 'intrusion' by GW. SG players are kinda like a colony that has been abandoned by the homeland. I get the feeling we have become pretty independent. New models would be appreciated, rule interference would at best probably be ignored or at worst responded to with the typical overwrought internet hostility.

First off, let me say I am a massive fan of the SG range and I would love them to get more attention. However, there is logic to GW's treatment of them. Firstly, their sales are and always were limited compared to the main games, so they can't afford the same treatment. Secondly, there is a limit to the amount of support they can give them. The main ranges can be continually developed via new rules which leads to new army books, updated models, etc. This will continue to make money. However, once you have the core rules in place for an SG, there is a limit to how far you can take it. Things like Mordheim did recieve a lot of additional warbands, expansion rules etc. This got to the point where the it was getting rather hard to keep track of rules and some things simply did not work (the High elf shadow warriors notoriously broke the game by being unbeatable). There are not enough sales to warrant re-setting the rules every few years and interest in them and dwindeled to a level of hardcore players. Very few new players start out because of SG's. They begin on the 'gateway drug' of one of the main ranges and then occasionally progress to SG's. I think GW made the best decision they could - make the rules available for free, keep selling the models and not invest any further time or money into them. People that want to play still can, whislt the stuff that makes the money gets the support. I think the only realsitic way they could get further support is through the method eldargal suggests, I don't see them ever having a big new release, their own rules magazines etc.

[westside]

There are other product lines (Black Library RPG) that like Specialist Games do not meet GW's profit to expenditure expectations. Instead of just killing those product lines off, handing them off to fan based life support, or hiding them in a corner, thus handing a whole market niche to competitors they could also license the SG properties out.

To claim that GW couldn't make a new mini now and then is questionable, this is a company that has found the resources to make key chains that look like a bolter shells, etc.

However, in my mind, the real policy that limits Specialist Games is not allowing stores to sell the product, not allowing games to be played in non-bunker stores, etc.

I believe the reasons for these policies stem from a corporate belief that lines such as Specialist compete (no matter how slightly) with the core 'cash cow' games.

No big deal, the fan base has and will take care of itself, people who like the 40k/WHFB 'universe' and want a less expensive and more tactical gaming experience will still discover Specialist on their own.

[eldargal]

It isn't that they don't want to sell SG stuff in stores, the problem is that it is expensive. Producing enough items to stock every store with a basic SG range would be a considerable investment, and as they don't sell quickly it makes much more sense to have them direct only. It is sad, but reasonable.

We should be thankful they aren't killing them off entirely.

[Verilance]

I think the only realsitic way they could get further support is through the method eldargal suggests, I don't see them ever having..., their own rules magazines etc.

Maybe I am the only person who ever bought a copy of The Fanatic their specialist game magazine but I miss it. It was fun to read even if I never played the games involved.

[gcsmith]

I liked reading fanatic but i never bought it, got 1st 3 copies when my old gw got rid of some of their old reading books.

[Thornblood]

Whilst I love the idea of expansions for dreadfleet, if it is indeed going to be limited edition, I dont think the expansions would be worth the investment from GW. The possibilities are huge. I would quite like to see a chaos fleet (again can include a variety of races for unique ships).

However GW has made many "limited editon" models previously that have scince just turned up in the Online Store- normally metal blisters, but i dont think that there is anything stopping them from releasing "back by popular demand" things.

If we look at the way that Space Hulk and Dreadfleet went, then I think Quest is on the cards. If they keep the format of what they do the same, I think we can expect only two teams/forces for Blood Bowl, Mordheim or Necromunda. Sealed £70+ boxed sets with unique individual models (like space hulk) and rules that simplify things by not having so many factions and races, but you have to play with the models that come with the game and no expansion otherwise.

In which case, I think Mordhiem would give us humans and Skaven, Blood Bowl would be humans and orcs, and Necromunda would be Goliaths and Orlocks for the classic feel.

However there is nothing stopping GW from using more all inclusive armies. A Blood Bowl team this way would probably include more than one race of people, Mordheim would probably have a mercenary force that the count of Ostland put together (porbably including an elf ranger, and halfling, a dwarf trollslayer, a middenhiemer, a marienburger etc etc against a skaven force complete with cultists (humans turned to serving skaven) and a possessed rat-ogre monstrosity thingy. Necromunda however could be put forward (as we are expecting Warhamer 41,000 to happen) and Necromunda is split between two factions for total control of the hive.

[wittdooley]

The real issue for the Specialist games in the future isn't plastic, it's cardboard. GW has to outsource their paper materials in these specialist games, whereas they can do all the plastic production in house.

"But Dooley!" you say, "Fantasy Flight makes Boardgames with tons of cardboard and paper, and GW is partnered with them!"

Ahh, this is very true. It would make a ton of sense for GW to enlist FFG to print all their boxes, cardboad, and paper materials for the Specialist games. Sadly, GW doesn't seem to feel this way.

"But Dooley!" you say, "Why not simply have FFG PRINT AND PRODUCE these specialist games?" Well the answer here comes down to the miniatures.

"But FFG does minis too!"

Yes, I know, but the problem is that FFGs license with GW states that they can't produce 28mm-sized miniatures for any of the GW games. As we all know, GW is quite protective of their miniature producing abilities and technologies, and certainly wouldn't want another company, despite one that has as solid license w/ GW, producing minis that would compete with theirs.

The simple solution is clearly that FFG and GW partner to make these games. I'm sure there's a much bigger explanation as to why they won't/aren't. I don't know the fine points of the previous Milton Bradley/GW partnership, but perhaps GW got burned that time and is subsequently hesitant to do so in the future.

[Wildeybeast]

, I think we can expect only two teams/forces for Blood Bowl, Mordheim or Necromunda. Sealed £70+ boxed sets with unique individual models (like space hulk) and rules that simplify things by not having so many factions and races, but you have to play with the models that come with the game and no expansion otherwise.

In which case, I think Mordhiem would give us humans and Skaven, Blood Bowl would be humans and orcs, and Necromunda would be Goliaths and Orlocks for the classic feel.

However there is nothing stopping GW from using more all inclusive armies. A Blood Bowl team this way would probably include more than one race of people, Mordheim would probably have a mercenary force that the count of Ostland put together (porbably including an elf ranger, and halfling, a dwarf trollslayer, a middenhiemer, a marienburger etc etc against a skaven force complete with cultists (humans turned to serving skaven) and a possessed rat-ogre monstrosity thingy. Necromunda however could be put forward (as we are expecting Warhamer 41,000 to happen) and Necromunda is split between two factions for total control of the hive.

This would be an incredibly bad idea and a massive slap in the face to all the fans of the many 'forces' of all those games. To even suggest having just two forces available with no rules for all the exisiting ones, or some horrible mishmash of races would incite massive internet hatred and alienate all the exisitng players. As such, I cannot see this ever happening. If it happens, it will most likely be in a fashion similar to Eldargal's suggestions

[bobrunnicles]

I think it is interesting, though all those projects would be more ambitious than either space hulk of seahammer. Not only does it involve finecasting everything, but you would have to do new buildings (I'm guessing that given the standards of scenery now, the card buildings would look pretty crap).

Not necessarily - Wyrd and Worldworks just released three sets of cardstock terrain for Malifaux and that seems to be blowing off the shelves, at least around here. In fact I would say it would be perfect for something like Mordheim as right now it is purely urban in nature (Streets of Malifaux, Sewers of Malifaux and Buildings of Malifaux). Worth checking out.

[wittdooley]

Not necessarily - Wyrd and Worldworks just released three sets of cardstock terrain for Malifaux and that seems to be blowing off the shelves, at least around here. In fact I would say it would be perfect for something like Mordheim as right now it is purely urban in nature (Streets of Malifaux, Sewers of Malifaux and Buildings of Malifaux). Worth checking out.

That terrain is garbage.

[magickbk]

The tricky part to all of these suggestions is that almost all of them have been tried before, but were ultimately unsuccessful. Here's a quick rundown on things that happened:

1. When GW was cranking out 'Secondary' games, they received full in-store and White Dwarf support. BFG, Mordheim, Blood Bowl, Inquisitor, Gorkamorka. 1 of the tables in the store would usually be set up for the newest game all the time as an intro, and there were nights to come in and play. Once the full range had been released, they would let it ride for a few months and then released an expansion. All this support from the 'regular' rules and miniatures designers meant that months would go by with little in the way of releases for Warhammer and 40K. Complaints about lack of support for the main games ensued.

2. After Inquisitor had quieted down, GW realized that all this work on the secondary games had caused the main games to become stagnant. Armed with new vision from work on Inquisitor, the studio wanted to go in a more grimdark direction with the universes. They pushed many of the old designers onto different projects to scrub their silly side of the game out. Jervis was 'promoted' to head the Fanatic division. With the main designers and model sculptors back on the main games, the apprentices and other random staff did a poor job of adding to the Fanatic games. Sales tanked as models with strange proportions and horribly unbalanced rules abounded, and the Fanatic lovers complained.

3. With Fanatic having gone into a death spiral, the entire direction was changed. Support was turned over to an old White Dwarf editor. This is when all the rules became 'living', which was to say that you could download a copy of the Living Rule Book for the games online. The rules tended to change rapidly in response to complaints from the populace, then change back, and so on. When you would play a game, it became difficult to make sure everyone was using the same set of rules. A few updated editions of rules were printed, which caused immediate and chaotic confusion as to whether the living rules were still valid. Complaints were voiced.

4. After all this mayhem, GW decided the games had been better off on their own, left to exist as they were so people could enjoy them when they wanted, if they wanted, like the old GW board games. The final versions of the rules were made available as a PDF, most of the confusing stuff was ignored as if it had never existed, and all support was removed, cementing in the Specialist Games section of the website as we know if today.

Some other things scattered in there were the Specialist mags, Citadel Journal support, rules development web sites, etc.

Those games were put through so much that almost no one bothered with them any more. Some players followed every single change and play with the latest rules revision nowadays, while others ignored the changes and play with the original rule book as if there had been no others. This makes it difficult to run events and tournaments.

I love the Specialist games, and still play some of them at various times with different people. It gets difficult, because within my loose gaming group, everyone has a different favorite, and I'm the only one who plays all of them. Having run through a Necromunda campaign about 2 years ago, we tried to use the new edition of the rules, and found many portions missing. We had to improvise from the old rulebook where we found gaps. Worked out fine for us, but made it difficult to add in players from outside the group.

Where I'm going with all this is that I would rather the games be either left to sit as-is for anyone to play the way they are, or re-done as one off board games (if you can call Dreadfleet a re-make of Man 'O War, which I'm not sure you can but is what it is). I think we'll see some make come-backs, and others go away entirely. I'd predict something like Mordheim or Necromunda sits as-is for now, where-as something like Blood Bowl is screaming for a one-shot release, with two opposing teams of Good guys and Bad guys, a cool roll-out pitch, and some other goodness. It may not be what everyone wants, but almost everything possible has been attempted at various points, and none of it has really worked out. The terrain also gets tricky. I may have built modular cities for both Mordheim and Necromunda, but not everyone will or can. It seems more likely that GW will release games where everything needed is included, or that can be played on 'standard' terrain that is what gets used for the other games. I really wish GW would do SOMETHING with the games, but not if that means we have to wait an extra year or two for updated Warhammer Armies books and the like.

[bobrunnicles]

That terrain is garbage.

"But Dooly" I say, "surely that's just your opinion? The fact that it's out of stock at many places and gives people an affordable way to use full colour 3D multilevel terrain with a minimum of work means *something*, no?". :p;)

I've been a Worldworks fan for many years now, and use their stuff extensively for roleplaying. I think that the Terraclips packs are a great idea, especially if you consider that a lot of people can hardly find the time to paint their FIGURES, let alone a large amount of urban terrain. Is it as good as true 3D terrain? Of course not! Is it a more than acceptable substitute that also looks pretty cool when it's all assembled? I would say yes.

[wittdooley]

"But Dooly" I say, "surely that's just your opinion? The fact that it's out of stock at many places and gives people an affordable way to use full colour 3D multilevel terrain with a minimum of work means *something*, no?". :p;)

I've been a Worldworks fan for many years now, and use their stuff extensively for roleplaying. I think that the Terraclips packs are a great idea, especially if you consider that a lot of people can hardly find the time to paint their FIGURES, let alone a large amount of urban terrain. Is it as good as true 3D terrain? Of course not! Is it a more than acceptable substitute that also looks pretty cool when it's all assembled? I would say yes.

My quote was unfair. The new terraclips terrain is LOADS better than their first try last year at GenCon. Now THAT stuff was garbage (way too thin, really prone to warping, etc).

And I'll expand. I'd actually the terra clips stuff if, instead of those silly clear clips, they did them Mordheim style and did molded plastic corners and accent pieces. I Appreciate that one of the selling points is that it is modular and changeable, but there is a big portion of the community that they're missing by not allowing that. Now, if they somehow read my post and decide that they're going to do that, I'll buy a few boxes for sure.

Now that I rambled about it, it's not the terrain I hate. It's the clips.

Those clips are garbage :cool:

[bobrunnicles]

Yeah, the prototype last year was allegedly garbage (only say that because I didn't actually see it myself, just read about the problems online) but that was one of the reasons they pulled it immediately and reworked the materials. Now as you say it's much better.

Regarding the clips, I mostly agree with you, some more 'architecturally interesting' ones would be nice to see, kinda like the doors and buttresses we saw in Necromunda (and perhaps might be seen down the road, could be something that a third party might be interested in putting together?). For general varied use, though, the existing ones work well and quickly become transparant in play....well, for me anyway :)

[GeordieGenius]

Warhammer Quest makes me dribble!!!!