Lelith Hesperax is worth her points.

[eldargal]

Also posted on Warseer:

Mini-rant:

Will people PLEASE stop saying Lelith Hesperax isn't worth the points? For the price you get a character that has a 50% chance of ignoring all shooting attacks, a 67% chance of ignoring all melee attacks, reduced incoming attacks by 1 and can put out more attacks than any other character in the game. Yes she is only S3 but even against Marines but even if you don't kill them they will be hitting on a 5+ and you will be saving on a 3+. Against Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau and a good proportion of Tyranids she will be even more effective. On top of this her saves are not given by wargear and can not be negated by those nasty GK weapons.

YOU may not like her and prefer other choices, but that is not the same as her not being worth her points.

I haven't actually seen many people on BoLS dismiss Lelith, but I thought it was worth posting here as well. Nip it in the bud.:rolleyes:

[Necron_Lord]

And don't forget that she is a really cool looking mini! And when she gets 2 pain tokens she can be very nasty on the charge. The only drawback with her (like Lady Malys) is her vulnerability to the floating power fist. Instant death sucks for Dark Eldar ICs without shadow fields (and it sucks for them when they roll '1').

[eldargal]

True, but at least she gets a 3+ save against it.:)

[Vindur]

I will agree she is worth her points if you break down what each of her bits of kit are worth.
However I feel she is correctly costed where as some of the utility characters are under costed making them better choices in most cases.
Malys and Baron give a defensive buff to their units to help them across the board.
Sliscus makes all the combat drug units in your army more reliable/stronger while giving all your ravagers and raiders a better version of the DS upgrade (if you feel the need to use it).
Add Malys's and the Baron's pregame bonus to this and its easy to see they for their costs(25-70pts cheaper) they are simply much better choices.

[eldargal]

That is a valid point, though to be honest I never use Malys or the Baron and I've never felt like I needed their abilities so I wouldn't say any of them are 'must haves'.

Oh, I forgot, Leliths attacks ignore armour as well.

[isotope99]

Leading bloodbrides or coming from a WWP she's great, but in a regular squad I'd like to be able to take the 2 special weapons with 10 wyches.

This is just a general bugbear of mine as to why DE are the only new army with the old 5/10 transport capacity.

Don't forget her built in shardnet should help protect her from power fists, who are likely to only end up with one attack (especially if you put another net in her guardian squad) hitting on a 4, wounding on a 2 and killing on a 1-2 for her save, so a less than one in six chance of getting fisted :eek:, if my math is correct.

Another strategy would be to start her in a unit of wracks and swap squads into a bloodbride squad with haemo to jack both pain tokens and get furious charge & FNP. With S4 she gets much better.

[eldargal]

Yup, next Apocalypse game I'm intending on having her come out of a WWP portal with ten Bloodbrides with three Hydra Gauntlets. 41-56 attacks from the BB on the charge plus another 6+ from Lelith, if we assume she charges some basic SM the squad would put out 52-67 attacks, more with the right combat drugs. Even aggainst deathstar units that is going to force casualties, and with Lelith the number of return attacks will be reduced.

[gcsmith]

My pet peve with the her is she is good but like u say need to get her in safely like web way etc, Its annoying how u cant garuntee they come out of webway, same way the trygon tunnel rule is stupid since u cant garuntee they will still be in reserve to come from the tunnel

[Pikante]

Yup, next Apocalypse game I'm intending on having her come out of a WWP portal with ten Bloodbrides with three Hydra Gauntlets. 41-56 attacks from the BB on the charge plus another 6+ from Lelith, if we assume she charges some basic SM the squad would put out 52-67 attacks, more with the right combat drugs. Even aggainst deathstar units that is going to force casualties, and with Lelith the number of return attacks will be reduced.

Put in some razor wings, for some extra super fun! Also she is completely worth her points, especially if Duke is in there. e may not benefit her, but considering she goes best with bloodbrides, and wytches (Most of the time) she gets a pretty big buff via her squad with Duke there too.

Shame people believe she isn't worth it, when only the Avatar, skarbrand and swarmlord really can match her WS denying her bonus attacks, and those generally get shot at by DL anyway D:

[Anggul]

I think it's the fact that for less points you could have 2 Succubi with agonisers, and they have combat drugs. Also, yeah she's only ineffective against marines... but you will fight marines a lot, not to mention any even tougher thing that come your way. That Wraithlord/Tyranid beastie/Talos/Daemon Prince/Warboss etc.? Yeah, a Succubus could have wounded that on a 4+. That number of attacks doesn't make up for the lack of strength, she'll probably kill... about 2-3 space marines on the charge? A Succubus with an agoniser can do exactly that too. Yeah Lelith is a lot more survivable, but I really don't think that's worth paying more than twice the points for her. Also, depending on what you roll on combat drugs, the Succubus might be WS9 as well, making them hit on 5s, or even get +1 attack or whatever.

Lelith is better against non-marines... but wyches would be killing non-marines with relative ease in close combat anyway. The only things I can think of that she'd really be more useful against are things like striking scorpions and incubi, heavily armoured but low-toughness troops. I can't really think of many others at the moment, but there might be others.

It's a shame, because she's very cool, but until you get 2 pain tokens, she just doesn't have 175pts worth of bite. Not that that should stop you from playing her, as you wouldn't be arguing her case unless you liked her. I'm more of a Kabalite/Incubus man myself, but the Wyches are cool too... everything Eldar is cool in my eyes. XP

[Ghoulio]

I think it's the fact that for less points you could have 2 Succubi with agonisers, and they have combat drugs. Also, yeah she's only ineffective against marines... but you will fight marines a lot, not to mention any even tougher thing that come your way. That Wraithlord/Tyranid beastie/Talos/Daemon Prince/Warboss etc.? Yeah, a Succubus could have wounded that on a 4+. That number of attacks doesn't make up for the lack of strength, she'll probably kill... about 2-3 space marines on the charge? A Succubus with an agoniser can do exactly that too. Yeah Lelith is a lot more survivable, but I really don't think that's worth paying more than twice the points for her. Also, depending on what you roll on combat drugs, the Succubus might be WS9 as well, making them hit on 5s, or even get +1 attack or whatever.

Lelith is better against non-marines... but wyches would be killing non-marines with relative ease in close combat anyway. The only things I can think of that she'd really be more useful against are things like striking scorpions and incubi, heavily armoured but low-toughness troops. I can't really think of many others at the moment, but there might be others.

It's a shame, because she's very cool, but until you get 2 pain tokens, she just doesn't have 175pts worth of bite. Not that that should stop you from playing her, as you wouldn't be arguing her case unless you liked her. I'm more of a Kabalite/Incubus man myself, but the Wyches are cool too... everything Eldar is cool in my eyes. XP

Sadly this is how I feel 100%. Another thing to think about is if your wyche squad gets a "1" for combat drugs she is now a hindrance since she slows that squad since she doesn't have drugs If she had drugs then I would agree 100% that she is worth it.

[thecactusman17]

Let's do a quick contrast between Lelith and The Baron.


Pre-game abilities: Lelith offers none. Baron always adds one to the die for determining who goes first and picks deployment. Advantage, Baron.

Unit/army buffs: Lelith offers none. Baron gives his unit stealth and grenades, and also offers a host of additional rules specifically for Hellions including making them a troops unit. Advantage: Baron

Combat: Lelith attacks a squad of Space Marines on average with 9 attacks, hits with six, then successfully kills with two. Baron gets 5 attacks, hits with 4, wounds with 3.5, and kills one. He can also wound monstrous creatures on a 4+, and anything with a rear armor of 12 or less, and that's without Furious Charge. He also has two BS 6 poisoned shots against infantry. Both go ahead of most enemy units but the Baron can stay out of enemy charge range from the rare exceptions that can attack him. Advantage Baron.

Defensive abilities: Lelith is hit only 1/3 of the time in close combat, and has a permanent 3++ in CC and a 4++ outside of it. Baron is hit 50% of the time in CC but has a 2++ save at all times, including when he makes a Dangerous Terrain roll. In either case, losing the save means losing the model more often than not. Lelith has one more wound than the Baron. Neither have Eternal Warrior. The Baron (and any Hellions in his unit) reroll failed Dangerous Terrain tests. Toss-up in either case.

Movement: Lelith is a Wych. Baron is a Hellion with jump infantry rules, fleet, and hit-and-run. Advantage, Baron.

Points cost: Lelith costs 70 points more than Baron Saothonyx. Advantage: Baron


In short, in every significant game element, a model 70 points cheaper outclasses the other in every way possible EXCEPT direct head-to-head combat. Which is unlikely, given that the model can easily dance around the other and take potshots until his opponent is dead.

[thecactusman17]

I just thought of something else to add. Assuming that Lelith isn't your primary HQ, let's go ahead and compare her to.... a squad of wyches at the same points.

Wych Squad (10 models)
Hekatrix w/Agonizer
2 Shardnets w/ Impalers
Haywire Grenades


Cost: 5 points less than Lelith

Army buffs: Each can fulfill a mandatory force org slot. Wyches can capture objectives.

Combat potential: Despite lower WS and initiative, the Wyches utterly dominate close combat and will handily kill Lelith in a straight-up fight. Over 30 attacks on the charge against your average squad of space marines. Combat drugs will likely boost your ability to hit the Marines (w/ 66% of drug rolls directly affecting your number of successful attacks) or survive any return hits. A 10-model squad of Wvches without drug benefits will hit a squad of bog-standard marines with 31 attacks will do 2.5 successful wounds (significantly more if they have any of the middle 4 drug rolls). Lelith will have about the same success. But Lelith will then immediately die to return attacks from powerfists etc. while Wyches will lose 1.5 models back from the remaining 8 marines, winning combat (before FNP kicks in, I should add).

A unit with S4 will do 3.5 wounds. With reroll to wound will do 5 wounds. And if they have a pain token, will take a grand total of 1 wound back on average. Causing another wound against models with Fearless or ATSKNF due to no-retreat.

Against Lelith? Lelith will strike first and we'll give her the charge, averaging a total of 1.32 wounds. The Wyches will strike back with 9 models, sans drugs, and score 1 wound even. With any of the drugs that affect successful attacks (reroll, +1A and +1 S) the average for the wyches increases to between 1.5 wounds back and 2 wounds. If they shoot her before she charges or assault her (or both), she will lose almost assuredly with an additional 1.5-3 wounds. And she will not have made her points back.

Advantage: Wyches, with the ability to buy their own transport and capture objectives in addition to excellent game-winning gear and drug rules.

[eldargal]

Personally I'm not particularly fond of Hellions, they are good, but I prefer Reavers. So why would I take the baron? I don't need his abilities to win, I'd rather take a character that kills things. Of course I could take the Baron AND Lelith and have the best of both worlds.

You do realise that her ++ save works against power fists, right? She has a better chance of surviving combat with powerfists than a Wych would AND she reduces the number of incoming PF attacks. With a squad of Wyches you could have 3 shardnets and with bloodbrides 4, so not onl can you tarpit deathstar units you have a good chance of killing them as well.

It comes down to personal preference, and that is not the same as her not being worth it. If you prefer the Baron, then she is. Personally I think the Baron is useless for the way I play my armies.

[Anggul]

I agree that she shouldn't really be compared to the Baron.

Your point about her save compared to a Wych is fairly irrelevant though, a wych's save is only one worse than Lelith, and if you fail it... you've lost a 10pt wych. Fail Leliths, and you've lose a 175pt wych. I don't really think about hidden fists when choosing someone, as it will always be a threat to anyone below T5, but you see my point.

My points still stand as they compare her to a Succubus, her actual counterpart.

[eldargal]

True but Lelith atleast will get the save outside of combat, which means if you get caught in the open you have a chance of surviving the shooting phase to get her back into combat again. I've seen this be quite useful. Succubi can't take an Agoniser/PW and shardnet so will probably be getting hit by the full number of attacks.

As I said I really think it comes down to personal preference. I'd never take Vect, Baron or Kheradruakh in a normal game for various reasons. But I would take Malys, Duke, Urien and Lelith because I can see those meshing with my playstyle. So they are worth the points, to others they are not.

Lelith is a killy character with excellent survivability that will complement a Wych Cult list or a WWP list.

[w7west]

Not much better than 85 point succubus. Definitely not much better than two succubi. Yet still more expensive !!

Only de hq that does not kind of suck in cc I would say is vect. Rest of them get 1-3 power weapon wounds each turn and die as soon as they roll a one. Vect still dies when he rolls a one, but he might kill a couple squads by then.

Great de hq's are the ones that do stuff other than / in addition to cc. str 3 t 3, 175 points and only cc? cy@!

Want to kill dudes on foot? Use a venom or some rapid fire warriors, or some cheap wyches, or some missiles! Want to get 1 shot? Pay 175 points for a single model!

[MaltonNecromancer]

Lelith is a one-woman Assault tarpit. The str 3 doesn't actually matter as much as people think, due to the sheer volume of attack she generates, combined with the power weapon ability she has. Str 3 ignores armour is miles better than str 4 but still a save.

My plan is Lelith in a Raider + 4 Grotesques. If she starts out with Furious Charge, suddenly she's even more dangerous. Drops like a hammer on any unit, even THSS.

[Demonus]

Does she have to be in btb contact to reduce the number of attacks? If so, easy to counter that by putting your PF guy safely behind a wall of troopers as he can still attack her.

I like Lillith. Ive killed her several times in the games Ive faced her. A nice epic battle with Lysander left her broken on the floor. An unlucky save vs JotWW made me giggle.

She definitely has a place in the 40k universe, unfortunately for her it is serving drinks on my Nurgle Pleasure Barge ;)

[doom-kitten]

I don't really know never faced her on the tabletop and have never seen her used, took a peek at her rules but meh, however I do own the model she currently serves as a nice Deathcult assassin :p

[DarkLink]

Not worth her points. A unit of wyches is better, she herself isn't that scary in CC and a 3++ isn't that great on a T3 model, and most of the other special characters are significantly cheaper and give you much better buffs and more overall utility.

[me_yourself]

When comparing Lelith to a regular squad of wyches you have to take into acount the fact that you cannot have a squad of wyches join a unit of bloodbrides. She is a IC and her purpose is to enhance the killy potential of another unit so that they should be able to handle big scary things. Of course you can multicharge. But is is not always available. And she does not lose 50% of her combat potential when the boat goes down.

However if you already have spent that much points in a single character I would find some more and go for vect. He is way better then Lelith in combat and murder anything besides TH/SS termies. Not to mention his special seize.

[thecactusman17]

Enhance the killing potential of all your wych units by getting the Duke (duchess?) instead and getting that awesome double drug roll. PLUS he doesn't bone over a squad with his combat drugs (in fact, a roll of 6 gives you TWO pain tokens), wounds on 2+, effectively rends on a 5+, has a 2++ save, and numerous other wonderful toys and tricks. And he costs 25 points less than Lelith.

The Duke is the best Wych enhancing HQ. Baron is the best all-around HQ in 5th edition hands down. Vect is the best close combat monster (possibly in the game). And Lelith is the best looking resculpted model.

One of those things just ain't like the others.

[eldargal]

One of the Dark Eldar players in my group often the Duke and Lelith together, swears by it.

[schulzed]

I love Lelith! She does have some issues against T4, and it does make it seem like there are cheaper, more effective things. But, she has her uses, and even with str3 she can put a hurt on. And once she gets two pain tokens, she's even more dangerous. She was the first model I bought for DE, because I loved the ideas behind her rules (the gaining attacks by by having higher weapon skill is such a cool idea), and liked the model.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

I'd probably use her, if it wasn't for the cost. £10.50 is steep for a model, and there aren't really any spare bits that I can take from it. At least in an Archon blister I can take the head and do a bit of green stuffing to make a second Archon using Warrior bits.

[Charybdis]

Lelith is pretty solid. She just struggles in comparison to other HQ choices because though she is expensive, the doesn't offer buffs or synergy, aside from increasing the potency/threat rating of the unit she joins.

She does have an AWESOME model though...

[WodenMHC]

I think she's the appropriate cost, and with smart playing you can get her to where she will do well.

Hands down, I include her because she is just about the only good female sculpt GW has done :)

[bethor]

The model is a great sculpt, and a substantial improvement on the first version.
As to the issue of points value...
she okay. Not good, not bad, definately not great. That being said, it is fun to watch her walk into a blob of IG and kill them. All of them. She is scary, and if she has furious charge, she can wade thru a tactical squad in a full turn by herself (they happen to be the same amount of points). In a fun game, and I enjoy fun games (it is a game), she is a great include. If you want to smash face with the best of them, then you might be better served elsewhere, with hq that are by all rights underpointed.

[chipstar1]

I'm using her in this next tournament, but mostly cause I'm bringing a fluffy list. I wouldn't consider her applicable for any true all-comers tournament list.

[Krayd]

I do think that if they actually end up expanding the close-combat 'to hit' table for 6th Edition (allowing for 6+'s/2+'s needed to hit between opponents with a particularly wide WS gap), then Lelith may see a lot more use.

[Sure]

Folks who point out the reasons why they don't like Lilith clearly show they are not skilled players. Why is she in combat with a monstrous creature? With 9 bloodbrides you still get 3 special weapons plus the siren with an agoniser. That is brutal if used appropriately. They should be going after other infantry units, preferably those with independant characters or a ton of power weapons (a la GK and Wolf Guard). one or two more Shardnets and impalers plus the Flail and you've got a lovely tarpit. Meanwhile the rest of your army achieves thier objectives to which they are suited, like taking out those things that you feel requires an agoniser.
Lilith is an advanced piece. Using her correctly is something I've not seen many players do. I don't play DE, but I used to think she was crap until I saw her appropriateky utilized by another player.

[helvexis]

dark eldar as a whole are a finesse ... mostly based army and the most important part for her as with most eldar units is movement ... if she has no choice but to assault say a monstrous creature then you HAVE DONE SOMETHING HORRIBLY WRONG then you will likely lose and deserve it.

as people say its pretty obvious she is better against t3 but weight of attacks does do a good if not great job of balancing it out for t4

[Cereal n' Milk]

As a DE/Chaos player, I've found Lilith to be hit or miss. I don't run her, but a friend does. She is dangerous, and the exclamation mark really on an already dangerous squad. What I have seen, though, is that Lilith+Incubi can take down most infantry squads on the charge.

[(TV)]

I've thought about her. I don't judge her as bad or anything, I would just be afraid to use (and lose) such a valuable unit, and don't even want to think of even more expensive escorts... I guess even with elite armies I prefer relative cheapness and redundance, because I'm just that boring XD

Regards,
TV

[thecactusman17]

Folks who point out the reasons why they don't like Lilith clearly show they are not skilled players. Why is she in combat with a monstrous creature? With 9 bloodbrides you still get 3 special weapons plus the siren with an agoniser. That is brutal if used appropriately. They should be going after other infantry units, preferably those with independant characters or a ton of power weapons (a la GK and Wolf Guard). one or two more Shardnets and impalers plus the Flail and you've got a lovely tarpit. Meanwhile the rest of your army achieves thier objectives to which they are suited, like taking out those things that you feel requires an agoniser.
Lilith is an advanced piece. Using her correctly is something I've not seen many players do. I don't play DE, but I used to think she was crap until I saw her appropriateky utilized by another player.

Well, kinda.

See, those are what i throw Wyches at. Why do I want to spend another 5pts apiece plus weapons when the usuals do so well on their own?

[Sure]

Well, kinda.

See, those are what i throw Wyches at. Why do I want to spend another 5pts apiece plus weapons when the usuals do so well on their own?

You would know better than I! I'll see what the guy at the local says about it. I think you're on to something, as they each have the same save in close combat, which is what makes them such a pain in hte neck.

[Levitas]

Like most of the Dark Eldar army you cant look at her as a solitary component. The whole army requires the individual components to work as a whole to work. I run her often with the Duke and she does a fair amount of damage when directed into the right place.

Plus she has great fluff, art and model. :cool: