Purifier Razorback Sapm 2000K

[Denied]

Hey here is an entertaining list I have been playing around with.

HQ:
Crowe-150
Xenos Inquisitor: Rad, Psychotroke, Psychic Mastery 1 (Hammerhand) -85

Troops:
5x 6man Purifiers: 2xpsycannons, 4x Halbreds; Razorback -(217per) 1085
1x9man Purifiers:9xhalbreds; Rhino:Searchlight -275

Heavy Support:
3x Psyfile Dreads -405

2K Total

Theory: Crowe foots it about, you load the Inquisitor with the 9man Purifier squad giving them an extra hammerhand and grenades and they are a roving strike force of doom. The rest of the squads act as a dangerous 24" firing squads that soften things up for a turn or two and then (if need be) can rip up whats left in assault.

Flaws: The main method of handling AV14 is Psycannons (not perfect but effective). Weak Psychic defense, close range shooting, only 1 dedicated assault unit.

Benefits: 6 scoring units, good quality assault, great firepower, and can hold their own against blob squads and terminators in assault.

You get:
29x I6 Force weapons
12x Str8 AP4 TL 48" range shots
20-40x Str7 AP4 Rending 24" range shots
15 Str5 AP4 TL 36" range shots
60 Str4 AP5 24"range shots
and one lonely Bolt Pistol/Chainsword lol.

anyone else seeing any gaping flaws I literally just threw this together like 5 mins ago while day dreaming about how awesome purifiers are :-P

[Wolfshade]

Only that your list is for 2000k, and you only have 2k.

I feel like a troll :(

[DarkLink]

In typical troll fashion, you got that wrong:p.

'k' stands for 'thousand'. So 2k=2000. 2000k=2000,000.

[chicop76]

Hey here is an entertaining list I have been playing around with.

HQ:
Crowe-150
Xenos Inquisitor: Rad, Psychotroke, Psychic Mastery 1 (Hammerhand) -85

Troops:
5x 6man Purifiers: 2xpsycannons, 4x Halbreds; Razorback -(217per) 1085
1x9man Purifiers:9xhalbreds; Rhino:Searchlight -275

Heavy Support:
3x Psyfile Dreads -405

2K Total

Theory: Crowe foots it about, you load the Inquisitor with the 9man Purifier squad giving them an extra hammerhand and grenades and they are a roving strike force of doom. The rest of the squads act as a dangerous 24" firing squads that soften things up for a turn or two and then (if need be) can rip up whats left in assault.

Flaws: The main method of handling AV14 is Psycannons (not perfect but effective). Weak Psychic defense, close range shooting, only 1 dedicated assault unit.

Benefits: 6 scoring units, good quality assault, great firepower, and can hold their own against blob squads and terminators in assault.

You get:
29x Force weapons
12x Str8 AP4 TL 48" range shots
20-40x Str7 AP4 Rending 24" range shots
And a hail of bolter fire every turn a good portion of which is TL.

anyone else seeing any gaping flaws I literally just threw this together like 5 mins ago while day dreaming about how awesome purifiers are :-P

To be honest you're better taking rhinos. Also a 10 man squad can weild 4 psycannons instead of 2. The Razorbacks actually limits the number of psycannos in your army.

[Kawauso]

Just one question...

How are 3 Reinforced Aegis platforms 'weak' psychic defence?
It's a serious question. I mean, there are entire armies in the game that can't do -anything- about psychic powers at all.

[plawolf]

Why are you maxing out psycannons on your 6 men squads but taking none on your 9 men squad?

I would take one guy out of a 6 men squad to bump that squad up to 10 men, and take 4 psycannons out of your 6 men squads and put them in the 10 men squad.

With a small squad size, you need all the attacks you can get in CC even with purifying flame. Having 2 psycannons in those squads means you lost 1/3 of your NFW attacks. Not good.

Your =I= can ride in the 5 men squad razorback and stay close to the rhino. The two squads can double-team something nasty, or the =I= can just jump out, attaches to the 10 men squad during the movement phase and charge whatever you want dead while the 5 men squad blasts something with their psycannons.

I would also consider dropping a couple of the razorbacks down to rhinos so your psycannon guys can pop out of the top hatch and let loose with some S7 rending shots. Shorter range but otherwise far far superior to heavy boltes.

With the points saved, get psybolt ammo for the remaining razorbacks and suddenly those heavy bolters become really threatening at S6. This way at least your shooting will have way more teeth and you will not be relying so much on CC to win games.

[Denied]

In typical troll fashion, you got that wrong:p.

'k' stands for 'thousand'. So 2k=2000. 2000k=2000,000.

Yes I failed in fast posting :-P


Just one question...

How are 3 Reinforced Aegis platforms 'weak' psychic defence?
It's a serious question. I mean, there are entire armies in the game that can't do -anything- about psychic powers at all.

I said weak not lack of. Ageis platforms are nice but its not like having a Psychic hood or staff or runes to just straight up shut down psychic armies.


To be honest you're better taking rhinos. Also a 10 man squad can weild 4 psycannons instead of 2. The Razorbacks actually limits the number of psycannos in your army.
Just because you CAN max out a squad DOESN'T mean you should. A 6man squad is more then enough to handle any none dedicated assault armies as well as put out a massive amount of bolter and psycannon fire. By NOT maxing out squads you can get 6 strong scoring units as well as more Razorbacks. The other option would be to max out squads and then always deploy combat squad where you have a squad of 4 psycannons and a halberds and then a squad of 5 halberds as well as only one razorback. You want the increased firer power from more units and razorbacks actually. Overall better.


Why are you maxing out psycannons on your 6 men squads but taking none on your 9 men squad? The intent is to have that squad rolling with the Inquisitor for Grenades making them a dedicated assault unit that will fly forward into an enemy line disembark and start ripping into squads. To have a 9man halberd squad with grenades means you can take out things like T-Wolves and TH/SS Terminators because on an assault you are doing 27 Str 5 (Hammerhand from the Inquisitor) Force weapon swings to an enemy unit at -1 toughness with the chance to instant kill multiple wound bases with a single hit. As well as the Psychotroke grenades having about a 50-50 chance to give you something awesome and you can obliterate Dedicated assault units with ease.




I would take one guy out of a 6 men squad to bump that squad up to 10 men, and take 4 psycannons out of your 6 men squads and put them in the 10 men squad.
Then they cant ride with the Inquisitor in a Rhino if I bring it up to 10 meaning they loose the grenades that make them awesome.



With a small squad size, you need all the attacks you can get in CC even with purifying flame. Having 2 psycannons in those squads means you lost 1/3 of your NFW attacks. Not good.

Again the way you play this is they hug things like cover and they shoot anyone attempting to assault them up and then you finish them off in CC. Lets Say a Grey Hunter squad is after them, assuming their rides survive the constant barrages of Psyfile Dread fire they still have to eat a single round of fire power before you assault and you will still win in CC.



I would also consider dropping a couple of the razorbacks down to rhinos so your psycannon guys can pop out of the top hatch and let loose with some S7 rending shots. Shorter range but otherwise far far superior to heavy boltes.
The Razorbacks add in a level of threat as they allow you to get good positioning with the 6 man squads as well as mobility, but mostly the 6 mans squads will be outside of the Razorbacks so they can use their bolters as well. The Razors add in the ability to create cover saves for units where needed as well as offer up that sweet TL Bolter action (MORE SHOOTING!!!). They are also a big enough threat that they will draw some of your enemies ire away from your squads and in the end who cares if a dedicated transport blows up, but if I loose a squad that means one scoring unit down and I am a sad panda.



With the points saved, get psybolt ammo for the remaining razorbacks and suddenly those heavy bolters become really threatening at S6. This way at least your shooting will have way more teeth and you will not be relying so much on CC to win games.

You clearly have not min-maxed many elite army lists in the past because although Psyammo is hella nice (dont get me wrong) it is not in the cards when you could have things like more Storm Bolters or Psycannons, or halberds, or Razorbacks, or just about anything else this list has.

[thecactusman17]

Swap around dudes to make your dreadnoughts venerable. The reroll is worth it and makes your best transport killers nearly invulnerable.

[Denied]

Swap around dudes to make your dreadnoughts venerable. The reroll is worth it and makes your best transport killers nearly invulnerable.

Venerable is an additional 60pts per model, so since I have three we are talking an added 180pts which is 45pts more then a single Psyfile dread = Not worth raising them to venerable. 180pts is almost an entire 6 man purifier squad and I would rather have the added squad for both scoring units and additional fire power then have the venerable re-roll rule. As it stands with Fortitude Psyfile Dreads are the most survivable thing I can think of as long as you give them cover.

With a 4 plus cover save only half of the penetrating or glances will be hitting home and of that 1/2 that get through the only ones you really worry about are 3,5,6 (not really worried about immobile as most the time my dreads grab a nice piece of cover in the back of the board and stay fairly stationary as it is). So only 1/4th of the Penetrating or glances are going to actually harm you. This on top of the fact they need to both HIT and Penetrate AV 12 means I am not scared. If someone wants to sit and peg at my Psyfile Dreads that means they are not shooting at my Purifiers or Razorbacks and most armies that can shoot enough to take out my dreads cant handle assaults so the purifiers will be unmolested as they close and start ripping apart the enemy.

Also, I argue Psycannons are your best Anti-Transport due to the amount of shots they can put out and the potential to rend. They are strength 7 AP 4 already and they are Rending with a max of 40 shots (stationary shooting) in the list BS 3 you are looking at 2/3 hitting so 26.7 chances to pen or glance and since its strength 7 even without the rending you can pen anything up to armor12 and with you can get 13 and 14,numbers wise its 8.9 (lets say 9)pens on AV12, 13.35 (13) pens on AV11, and with the Rending 2.96 (lets say 3) pens on AV14/13.

Since the Psyfileman are only able to Pen up to AV13 and are not rending I think the Psycannons win out. Also there are few transports that are over AV12. Anything over AV12 is hella expensive too and will eat up the majority of your opponents point total so if they are running a lot of AV13 and 14 vehicles then they are lacking somewhere else in the list. There are a few exceptions though Orks, and IG can afford cheap high AV vehicles, but those armies are squish to Purifiers in assault so it balances a bit.

[DarkLink]

Swap around dudes to make your dreadnoughts venerable. The reroll is worth it and makes your best transport killers nearly invulnerable.

The problem here is one of efficiency. Offensively you get more for your points sticking with heavy Psyrifle Dreads and spending those extra points on other units to get more psycannons. Unless you need a heavy slot, 3 psyrifle dreads will give you the most firepower for the least points, overall. It's the most efficient way of getting lots of long range AT in your list, so you can spend points to cram in as many psycannons elsewhere as you can. I'd only ever start taking Venerable Psyrifle Dreads after you run out of heavy slots.

Now, sometimes brute effectiveness overrides efficiency when writing lists, but not here. Here long range AT is something GKs need, and heavy psyrifle Dreads are the cheapest way to meet those needs while still leaving points for other stuff that is more central to the list. Therefore you're looking for offensive efficiency here, as opposed to overall effectiveness.

[plawolf]

The intent is to have that squad rolling with the Inquisitor for Grenades making them a dedicated assault unit that will fly forward into an enemy line disembark and start ripping into squads. To have a 9man halberd squad with grenades means you can take out things like T-Wolves and TH/SS Terminators because on an assault you are doing 27 Str 5 (Hammerhand from the Inquisitor) Force weapon swings to an enemy unit at -1 toughness with the chance to instant kill multiple wound bases with a single hit. As well as the Psychotroke grenades having about a 50-50 chance to give you something awesome and you can obliterate Dedicated assault units with ease.

All fine and good IF you can drive that rhino up to where you want it.

I would expect any half decent player to be focusing a lot of their fire at that Rhino since it is your single CC hammer unit, and at 2k, I would not expect that Rhino to have a particularly great chance of getting to where it wants before it is immobilized or destroyed.

With psycannons, that squad becomes a whole lot more flexible, and if their ride gets shot from under them, its no biggie and they can still do a lot of damage as they are hoofing it up field to get into CC.

What more, with your current set up, that unit needs to get into CC to do much good, but as amazing as purifiers are, there are still things out there that you would not want to be in CC with. Having psycannons gives you the flexibility to choose to not charge and still be effective.

I think the ability to instagib multi-wound models is not all that critical considering how rare they are. If there are some T-wolves or Paladins on the field, you can, and probably would want to anyways, bring in the razorback the =I= is riding in to double team them.

In the cases where you don't need to, you now have two very capable CC units instead of one superunit that will be overkill against most opponents, and a bunch of decent CC units.


Then they cant ride with the Inquisitor in a Rhino if I bring it up to 10 meaning they loose the grenades that make them awesome.

Yes, I realized that, which is why I was suggesting you put the =I= in a razorback and keep the two close. If needs be, the =I= can detach from the razor squad and attached to the Rhino squad or both squads can charge the same enemy if you really want that unit dead.


Again the way you play this is they hug things like cover and they shoot anyone attempting to assault them up and then you finish them off in CC. Lets Say a Grey Hunter squad is after them, assuming their rides survive the constant barrages of Psyfile Dread fire they still have to eat a single round of fire power before you assault and you will still win in CC.

My main concern with two psycannons in a 6 men squad is what you will do when you inevitably start taking casualties.

If you take losses while shooting, you will be taking off halbert guys to maintain your ranged edge, but that dilutes your CC punch really quickly since you are already a couple of halberts short.

Then, when the enemy does get into CC, and you take losses, chances are you will be tempted to take off psycannon guys to make sure you win combat. But that is a really cheap way to loose psycannons.

I just feel that with 4 psycannons in a 10 men squad and single psycannons in 6 men squads, you will be facing far fewer tough calls on whether to take psycannons off, and thus preserving them for longer to get more shots out of those same number of psycannons during the course of a game.

Since this is purely a distribution suggestion and you will have exactly the same number and types of models, I would suggest you try the two methods out and see which proves more effective.


You clearly have not min-maxed many elite army lists in the past because although Psyammo is hella nice (dont get me wrong) it is not in the cards when you could have things like more Storm Bolters or Psycannons, or halberds, or Razorbacks, or just about anything else this list has.

Psybolt ammo is 5 pts per razorback. Are you telling me you just cannot find 25pts to make all your razorbacks S6 instead of S5? How much are you spending just to add one point of strength onto a single squad of purifiers with that psyker upgrade for your =I=? The main reason to take the =I= is grenades. The strength boost is nice, but not all that important since you are rolling to wound on 2+ against T4 or T3 with rad grenades whether you are S5 or S6.

S6 V S5 on the heavy bolter could be huge OTOH, since that is the difference between penning or glancing AV11, and it also allows you to glance AV12, whereas heavy bolters would not be able to touch them otherwise.

That transforms your razorbacks from annoyance into threats. And all for 5 pts? Surely you can find the points...

[Denied]

@ Palwolf:

You bring up some good points, but the long and short if it is the only way to know for sure is to playtest this list.

First off) yes, any competent player will recognize the CC unit and focus it early on. Additionally any competent player (ie ME) will attempt to deny them this ability as much as possible by things like hugging cover where ever possible, or even keeping it completely out of line of site. I am not certain what your terrain situation is at your local scene, but there are tons of stores in the city I live that have good 40K groups and every store I go to has great over all terrain, not too many, but enough complete line of sight blocking pieces, runes, and nice area terrain so it's never a problem denying people LOS or gaining good cover saves. Also with 5 other Rhino/Razor's on the board creating cover is FAR from impossible. Additionally if I get first its easy to close with the Rhino by deploying as close to the deployment zone as possible and jetting forward on 12 then popping smoke (again to gain a cover save for a turn). Yes they could probably pop the Rhino even if it is in cover, but that usually means they either A) got really lucky or B) focused the single Rhino with an excessive amount of fire power, and if they are shooting at it that much it means they are not shooting at other things and I am okay with that. Additionally if they get lucky and it pops then I am okay with that too, because things like that happen in games.

As for making full 10 man squads and combat squading them into a group of mostly psycannons and another group of all halbreds there are several things wrong with that. One I am not perfectly certain, but from my rough numbers you end up with more marines on the board if you go with the 6 man squad as well as more Razors. Two, you still run into the problem if they focus the Psycannon squads only now worse because instead of having more then 1 non psycannon to take wounds if need be, you only have the lone guy and he goes dead really fast and then you start loosing Psycannons even faster.

Again as for Psybolt ammo on the razors, I have only 1 point left over so no I cant come up with 25. Yes I am spending the 30 points for hammer hand on the Inquisitor, but I am far from giving this up because it has more purposes then you outlined. You forget that with two hammerhands I can start tearing up tanks up close, like if I am charging a Mech IG line I can multi charge several chimeras or LRBT and pop them like candy since they all have AV10 rear (in fact most things don't get above AV11 rear armor). Also there are a fair amount of strong T5 deathstar units out there (most often with multiple wounds, again T-wolves!) and the more wounds I can drop on them the better.

This is going to have to be play tested, you may be right, I may really want the Psybolt, but as it stands I find it highly debatable and not necessary.

[plawolf]

Regarding the Rhino, well fair enough if that is how the terrain is where you play and you are happy with the odds.


As for making full 10 man squads and combat squading them into a group of mostly psycannons and another group of all halbreds there are several things wrong with that. One I am not perfectly certain, but from my rough numbers you end up with more marines on the board if you go with the 6 man squad as well as more Razors. Two, you still run into the problem if they focus the Psycannon squads only now worse because instead of having more then 1 non psycannon to take wounds if need be, you only have the lone guy and he goes dead really fast and then you start loosing Psycannons even faster.

I think you are misunderstanding what I meant.

I wasn't saying you boost all your purifier squads up to 10 men and combat squad them. I was suggesting you take a single psycannon out of all your 6 men squads and put them in your 10 men squad, so you end up having 5 halberts and a psycannon each in your 6 men squads and 4 psycannons and 6 halberts in your 10 men squad.

You have exactly the same number of psycannons in total, but now the enemy will need to kill off 5 guys before reaching your psycannons in shooting, and in CC, since your 6 men squads have more halberts to start with, your chances of winning combat (and taking fewer losses) are improved, and you are not pressured into taking a psycannon off to preserve your CC punch so much if you loose guys in CC.


Again as for Psybolt ammo on the razors, I have only 1 point left over so no I cant come up with 25. Yes I am spending the 30 points for hammer hand on the Inquisitor, but I am far from giving this up because it has more purposes then you outlined. You forget that with two hammerhands I can start tearing up tanks up close, like if I am charging a Mech IG line I can multi charge several chimeras or LRBT and pop them like candy since they all have AV10 rear (in fact most things don't get above AV11 rear armor). Also there are a fair amount of strong T5 deathstar units out there (most often with multiple wounds, again T-wolves!) and the more wounds I can drop on them the better.

This is going to have to be play tested, you may be right, I may really want the Psybolt, but as it stands I find it highly debatable and not necessary.

As you say, this is best decided based on play testing, and personal preference may come into it. But I do not like to reply too much on CC for my anti-armor work since that can be easily countered with the enemy moving his armor.

Footslogging, purifiers are not going to catch armor unless they want to be caught, and even if they do catch them, chance are you will be needing 6s to hit, and needing 5s and 6s again to pen means you are not going to be getting much joy out of it if the enemy wants to make things difficult for you. And lets not forget tank shock.

Well even with double hammer hand and rad grenades, you are not going to be instangibing multi-wound T5 models. If faced against them, you are probably better off going for force weapons over hammerhand.

But if you really want to keep hammerhand, you can always drop a guy off a razorback squad and have exactly the 25 pts you need.

Play test if and see if that doesn't change your mind. ;)