Penitent engines - RAW vs RAI

[Wildeybeast]

Ok, probably opening a huge can of worms here, but here goes nothing.

The 'options' section for penitent engines contains the following "Include an additional two penitent engines....85points per model".

So my question is this - do you have to buy two additional engines or can you buy just one?

The argument for two is: the wording is such that it does not give you an option to buy one. If it was meant to, it would say, as the other unit entries do, 'include up to x pentient engines'. The wording seems quite deliberately chosen to mean you buy 2 extra or none.

The argument for one or two is: a) if you had to buy 2, why give the points cost per model rather than just a total for both? b) why on earth would GW want to force you to buy two models rather than just one (other than of course for financial gain)?

To me, this seems to be a case of badly worded rules (and as I have mentioned elsewhere, GW does not proof read WD) and the only sensible thing is that you can buy one or two additional engines. However, if we play RAW, you have to buy 2 or nothing....

Have at it.

Edit: Rules on p91 of WD381 for anyone who wants to look them up.

[jfv999]

You must be one heck of a tedious opponent if you have to ask this with any seriousness.

[dannyat2460]

Play it safe and go with RAW and then pray that we eather get a FAQ for it (doubtful) or the new codex gets a move on and released soon

[dannyat2460]

You must be one heck of a tedious opponent if you have to ask this with any seriousness.

Nothing tedious about that question, sometimes its all or nothing when you upgrade things.

Its better to ask the questions and be proved correct than not ask and be acused of cheating

[Wildeybeast]

You must be one heck of a tedious opponent if you have to ask this with any seriousness.

Wow, I'm tedious and yet you found the the time to register for the forum and ensure that your first post served no purpose other than insulting someone. Way to make friends there.

I don't actually play SoB so I really don't care, I was curious to see what the wider community thought. It is not like they have simply just missed a word out and the answer is obvious, it seems a deliberately designed and yet very odd rule. I see no reason why the question is not valid.

[Xas]

I vote on the autor just missing "up to" in the sentence

[Wildeybeast]

Were it that easy. If that were the case the sentence would read 'include [up to] two additional penitent engines', which is how the entries are written for other squads. However the wording is such that it appears no words are missing (the use of "an" is the key) and you have to take 2 extra or non at all. This would be ok, if not somewhat odd, on its own, but then the points cost are listed per model. So I can only think that either the points cost or the option has been badly written, but it's hard to tell which. The perils of using the non-proof read WD to publish codexes.

[Artificer]

RAW in the context of playing makes sense. One for a bit of fun in the game and 3 are needed for an effective weapon - ie thin skinned open topped walker fixated on a charge across the battle field. What I find more interesting is the picture of the penitent engine of page 97 WD 380 link below and again on page 86 WD 381 which look like a new model. Its a pity Exorcists dont also come in squadrons of 3.

http://artificer-gallery.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-penitent-engine-finecast-mini.html

[doom-kitten]

:D Not to put you down but the question is moot as a SoB player I can tell you no one is going to waste the heavy slot to buy some Penitent Engines they're just...not worth it at all (nicest thing I could think of). But it is a good question and one I didn't catch mostle because I skimmed the entry and sadly put my PE's back in their box, I swear they cried.

Edit. If this sounds rude, sorry I was just pointing out how useless a unit they are.

[Wildeybeast]

:D Not to put you down but the question is moot as a SoB player I can tell you no one is going to waste the heavy slot to buy some Penitent Engines they're just...not worth it at all (nicest thing I could think of). But it is a good question and one I didn't catch mostle because I skimmed the entry and sadly put my PE's back in their box, I swear they cried.

Edit. If this sounds rude, sorry I was just pointing out how useless a unit they are.

Don't worry mate, it doesn't sound rude. They have always seemed odd to me, combat machines in a largely shooty army. Were they HS in the previous rules, seems to me it would make mopre sense if they and dominion squads were switched.

[doom-kitten]

Yes they've always been HS and if they switched them with Dominions I'd kill, dominions are one of the only good squads and If I even had to choose between Exorcists and Dominions I'd have a heart attack. They've always be expensive too, 80 points in the previous codex, their armour 11 open topped, they get alot of attacks and stuff but they have rage and must move towards the nearest enemy target. This makes them easy to lead around by the nose with fast units and deal with them later. I imagine they where meant to give Sister players options for an assualt themed army but they where terrible playtested and imagined, they work well against any army that's willing to charge in and fire nothing at them but that will never happen. I'm thinking the should be elite like Dreadnoughts.

[AbusePuppy]

We already went over this with the Tyranid codex and Scything Talons on Tervigons. When something is listed under "Options," it is optional unless it includes the text "Must select one of..." or similar wording.

[Gir]

Common sense. If you had to take two extra, why would they show the price of one?

[Wildeybeast]

Abusepuppy, I am well aware of that, and that wasn't my question. Of course you dont have to take any additional engines, the issue is if you do choose to do so, how many additional engines do you have to buy?

Gir. Those are my thoughts, and it would be how I would play against anyone fielding sisters, I'm quite happy using RAI in this instance as it seems farcical to have to to take two additional rather than one.

[Hive Mind]

WTF does common sense have to do with anything? Is it common sense that when a melta guardsman gets charged by a dreadnought he slings his melta to pound on it with his tiny fists? Is it bollocks.

You take one or you take three unless you talk to your opponent and they're happy to let you take two.

[addamsfamily36]

Question,

Under unit entry, does it say like 1 - 3 ?
or does it say 1 or 3
It may not have that bit but if it does have that bit then it would solve the issue.

[Gir]

WTF does common sense have to do with anything? Is it common sense that when a melta guardsman gets charged by a dreadnought he slings his melta to pound on it with his tiny fists? Is it bollocks.

You take one or you take three unless you talk to your opponent and they're happy to let you take two.

They are completely different circumstances. One is an abstraction, one is not.

[Hive Mind]

They are completely different circumstances. One is an abstraction, one is not.

ROFL, they're not at all different, let alone 'completely different'. Common sense plays no role here. Maybe it would if the rule was vague but it's not. Not even a little bit.

So I guess what you're saying then is that it's 'common sense' that when the rule explicitly says take one or take three it actually means you can take two if you feel like it?

Just like it was 'common sense' that the Dreadknight benefited from rules for Walkers even though it's a Monstrous Creature?

[Wildeybeast]

Question,

Under unit entry, does it say like 1 - 3 ?
or does it say 1 or 3
It may not have that bit but if it does have that bit then it would solve the issue.

It says one, and then under the 'options' entry you can take 'an additional two'.

Hive Mind, common sense often doesn't play any role in this game. I'd be happy for my opponent to take engines, rather than three, but I guess everyone is different. How do people think this would go down in the tourney scene (I don't play tourneys)?

[Hive Mind]

No it doesn't, which is my point.

I don't play tournaments either but given that the internet has decided that PEs are useless I doubt anyone would care if you took two in one FOC slot.

[Gir]

ROFL, they're not at all different, let alone 'completely different'. Common sense plays no role here. Maybe it would if the rule was vague but it's not. Not even a little bit.


One is an abstraction, one is not.