Mordrak and "First to the Fray"

[YourMomsBox]

According to the Grey Knight Codex, Grand Master Mordrak is considered an "upgrade character", if he has his Ghostly Bodyguard.

According to the BRB pg. 47, an "]upgrade character[/U]" is likened to that of a Space Marine sergeant.

So, if you take Grand Master Mordrak with Ghost Knights, would you be able to attach an Independent character to this unit and deploy with them using Mordrak's "First to the Fray"? Say, adding a Librarian with Terminator Armor?

[DarkLink]

Uh, yeah. Mordrack being an upgrade character isn't even relevant to that. The Ghost Knights are a unit, thus an Independent Character may join them. Mordrack just happens to be their squad leader.

[YourMomsBox]

Have had this conversation with a few people, and they were in the camp that because Mordrak didn't have IC status, he was unable to have another IC join him, either with or without the Ghost Knights.

That makes sense that if he was alone that an IC couldn't join him, but as posted, my thing was verifying my point that an IC could be attached if Ghost Knights were taken.

If this is a good idea, what are your opinions on taking a Libby to grant a 3+ cover to the Knights, and then using Summoning to bring something up. If you attach a Libby with Mordrak, and they arrive the 1st turn, can the Libby use Summoning to summon something that 1st turn, or does he have to wait till turn 2 since Summoning says its used "at the beginning of the Librarians Movement phase"?

[fuzzbuket]

yes a IC cna join a unit, any unit. if the other unit has a IC it dosnt matte.

-fuzz

[SeattleDV8]

Have had this conversation with a few people, and they were in the camp that because Mordrak didn't have IC status, he was unable to have another IC join him, either with or without the Ghost Knights.

That makes sense that if he was alone that an IC couldn't join him, but as posted, my thing was verifying my point that an IC could be attached if Ghost Knights were taken.

If this is a good idea, what are your opinions on taking a Libby to grant a 3+ cover to the Knights, and then using Summoning to bring something up. If you attach a Libby with Mordrak, and they arrive the 1st turn, can the Libby use Summoning to summon something that 1st turn, or does he have to wait till turn 2 since Summoning says its used "at the beginning of the Librarians Movement phase"?

Mordrak is a character, he also can be part of his Ghost Knights.
Mordrak is not always a unit of a single model.
Therefore there is no reason that Mordark cannot be joined by an IC.
IC's can join any unit as long as it is not a vehicle or a unit that is always a single model.

[The Twilight Fade]

Attaching a Libby to put them in warp rift or vortex of doom range is a good idea (as he is in terminator armour he is relentless and can therefore deep strike and bam the vortex on a squad) but the Ghost Knights have the stealth USR anyway so Shrouding won't be needed!

[DarkLink]

Have had this conversation with a few people, and they were in the camp that because Mordrak didn't have IC status, he was unable to have another IC join him, either with or without the Ghost Knights.


Reread the rules. As seattledv8 mentioned, being an upgrade character is irrelevant. To take your friend's conclusion to the logical extreme, an IC could only ever join another unit if it also had the IC special rule, or contained multiple models. So why can an IC join a unit of Paladins or Carnifex with only a single model in them? Reductio ad absurdum.

The only restriction on what units ICs can join are the following: 1) the unit always consists of a single model (which Mordrack clearly isn't one of these), and 2) units that have a special rule barring ICs from joining (which Mordrack similarly isn't). Since neither restriction applies, the Librarian can join Mordrack's unit, even if it only contains Mordrack himself.

On a side note, Crowe is a different story as he is always a single model unit.



If this is a good idea, what are your opinions on taking a Libby to grant a 3+ cover to the Knights, and then using Summoning to bring something up. If you attach a Libby with Mordrak, and they arrive the 1st turn, can the Libby use Summoning to summon something that 1st turn, or does he have to wait till turn 2 since Summoning says its used "at the beginning of the Librarians Movement phase"?

Wait till turn 2. Same thing with Eldar psychic powers. They're used at the beginning of the movement phase, and can't be used that turn if the Farseer has just arrived from reserves. I'm not sure if that's an actual FAQ ruling, though, you'd have to check.

[plawolf]

Attaching a Libby to put them in warp rift or vortex of doom range is a good idea (as he is in terminator armour he is relentless and can therefore deep strike and bam the vortex on a squad) but the Ghost Knights have the stealth USR anyway so Shrouding won't be needed!

Vortex of doom might not be such a good idea as its a small blast and has the risk of taking out a lot of your squad if the libby whiffs the roll.

Warp rift is a much better idea as that guarantees a penetrating hit against all armor, so is much better than S10 AP1, as unless you are shooting at rear armor, even that can fail to pen.

What more, with a template, you are much more likely to hit more bodies and/or tanks than a single small blast.

[The Twilight Fade]

Well why not use both!! He's mastery level two as standard. Lots of the other defensive powers are used during their turn anyway so you can use them both
Tbh I thought for some reason VoD was a large blast but never mind, it has a 90% chance or so of succeeding so I think I would always use them both if I went with this combo!

[YourMomsBox]

Well why not use both!! He's mastery level two as standard. Lots of the other defensive powers are used during their turn anyway so you can use them both
Tbh I thought for some reason VoD was a large blast but never mind, it has a 90% chance or so of succeeding so I think I would always use them both if I went with this combo!

He can only use one Psychic Shooting Attack in the Shooting phase, otherwise that would be great. Also, thanks for the heads up on the Shrouding. don't know why I thought 'Stealths' could stack.

seattledv8 and DarkLink, thanks for the clarification.

Regarding the Libby's arriving using Mordraks "First to the Fray", and him using his Summoning power; I scoured the BRB, its FAQ, and the Grey Knight FAQ, and it makes no reference to this.

Using "First to the Fray", it says "Mordrak and any unit he accompanies will arrive in your first turn..."

Summoning makes reference to being used "...at the beginning of the Librarians Movement phase". It doesn't state the beginning of the Grey Knight's Movement phase, it says Librarian's Movement phase.

So when is the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase? Is it the 1st thing you do in the Movement phase, or is it after Mordrak's unit arrives with "First to the Fray"?

Summoning makes no statement that you can't move and use the power, it simply states that its down at the beginning of the Movement phase. So if Mordraks' unit arriving 1st turn is the first thing you can do, I see no reason why you can't Summon another unit afterwards.

What's your take?

[DarkLink]

Well, the problem is both reserves and the Summoning are done at the beginning of the movement phase, as in 'before everything else'. It doesn't really specify which is done first, but if the unit hasn't arrived from reserves yet it can't use any psychic powers.

[The Twilight Fade]

Whoops of course, kinda forgot mastery level doesn't affect how many offensive spells they can use :o

[YourMomsBox]

Well, the problem is both reserves and the Summoning are done at the beginning of the movement phase, as in 'before everything else'. It doesn't really specify which is done first, but if the unit hasn't arrived from reserves yet it can't use any psychic powers.

Thats the question though. Is Mordrak's squad coming in from Reserves, or are they just entering play? It doesn't say. Reserves are not rolled for on the first turn, only 2 and on. His rule states he simply arrives via Deepstrike on the 1st turn; no rolling or anything. It sounds almost like bringing a unit in from the board edge on the first turn, except he is special and arrives via Deepstrike, instead of walking on from the table edge.

Like you stated as well, who's to say what is done first; the arriving via Deepstrike or using the Summoning spell. Both happen in the Movement phase. Now if it was akin to Reserves arriving, on any other turn, you bring your troops on first, then resolve any other moving of your units typically.

Unless there is something stated somewhere explicitly, I see no reason at the moment that you couldn't brin Mordrak, his unit, and the Libby on the 1st turn, and then Summon another unit. Both of these things being done in the Movement phase.

I of course, am not ruling out that there may be something that makes me wrong, but as of now, I can't see anything that would prevent this.

[doom-kitten]

The way I see it is this, the rule says the power can be used at the start of the Librarian's movement phase, to me that says it must be used prior to the Librarian moving otherwise it would say "during the librarian's movement phase" or "at the end of the Librarian's movement phase". As for deepstriking and using the power the Librarian techincally doen't have a movement phase as he can't actually move after deepstrike regardless of whether the deepstrike happens before the GK's movement phase. So following this it's impossible to use a power at the start of a phase you don't have to start with that librarian, so I agree 2nd turn to use the power.

[DarkLink]

Thats the question though. Is Mordrak's squad coming in from Reserves, or are they just entering play? It doesn't say. Reserves are not rolled for on the first turn, only 2 and on. His rule states he simply arrives via Deepstrike on the 1st turn; no rolling or anything. It sounds almost like bringing a unit in from the board edge on the first turn, except he is special and arrives via Deepstrike, instead of walking on from the table edge.
.

In order to deploy via deepstrike, you must enter reserves and thus arrive from reserves. Mordrack's rule does nothing to change this. All it changes is that instead of rolling starting turn 2, you come in turn 1 automatically. But you're still arriving from reserves via deepstrike.