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Denzark
08-31-2011, 03:01 PM
Having considered the question of 'is the Empire dying out' or not, in response to a query on BoLS main about how the Empire always seems to be on the back foot, in this short treatise, I am going to examine each (playable) race in turn, and look at what their racial goal (if any) is, how they aim to achieve it, and is this likely to succeed?

I caveat this as follows (as well as confessing this is mahoosively lengthy, mea culpa...):

Firstly, I will not research or offer any source commentary - I will comment from my own knowledge of the fluff. If people want to offer substantive sourced evidence to the contrary, so be it. Secondly, this may seemed skewed from an Imperial perspective. I will tell you which codexes I own and play, so that you can see what is firsthand knowledge or not. Lastly, all Imperial factions will be grouped under the heading 'The Empire of Man' irrespective if the differing armies have seemingly different aims.

Eldar (Codex owned and played)

The Eldar seem to be all about tragedy and loss, and past glories turned in horror into Slaanesh as a pursuit of sensation went wrong. That being said, their aim seems now to be to endure and keep what is left alive and secure from Slaanesh. I cannot find any evidence that they wish a return to their pre-fall status, nor that they are indeed capable of doing so.

How do they seek to do this? A 3-pronged approach. Firstly, strict adherence to the Eldar way, to govern their passions through strict discipline prevent a further fall. Turning to Khaine in the guise of exarch is the worst example of allowing passions to govern, which is tolerated and channelled into something of use. Secondly, mastery of the Webways and sticking to self contained craftworlds (yes I know about exodite planets but they are on the edge of society) that can withdraw into the Webways and away from the danger or the focus of galactic conflict. Lastly, using every means at their power, psychic, Webways, mastery of fate, to influence events to secure themselves - even sacrificing the lesser races or making them fight each other, as long as they can benefit.

Will they succeed? The endurance since the fall, which was what created the warp storms which allowed intergalactic-travel and thus the expansion of the Empire, has been pretty good. Whilst fallen craftworlds are alluded to, the major and minor ones seem to be surviving successfully - although getting in the path of a Hive Fleet probably doesn't help. Greatest threat? In my opinion, if Ahriman unlocks the key to the Webways, and gets to the Black Library, its game over. However, given Ahriman has not achieved Daemonhood, I reckon this means Tzeentch/Magnus is still p*ssed with him about the Rubric - and also a further fall will strengthen Slaanesh. I don't think Ahriman will succeed without Tzeentch so I think the Eldar will carry on.

Dark Eldar

I've never been sure about these fellas. They seem to be one of the most introspective of races, looking in at the eternal power struggles in Commoragh (sp?) Do the DE want to subjugate the galaxy? I don't think so. If they subjugated everyone, there would be no slave raids to be had, and no further sensations to be had. I think the aim of everyone is individual not racial - probably to eke out a living in Commoragh and for those with the influence and reach, try and be the top dog - replace Vect?

How do they do this? Raids out when necessary, internal raids on DE competition when necessary. Masterful use of Webways. Large scale external raids into another races' empire probably implies only a need for slaves or materiel on a larger scale - not a grand plan.

Can they succeed? I think they are like a hardy and perennial weed. No one is capable of mounting a campaign of full xenocide against them, and as long as they remain a reasonably small scale problem compared to the big boys, I think it will be live and let live, with a spanking where needed, but no one attempting to assault Commoragh. So, they will probably carry on in the same hedonistic fashion forever. I freely confess this is one of my least favourite races that I know not much about, feel free to correct.

Orks (owned Waagh the Orks, Ere we go, Freebooterz, and 2ed codex. Stopped playing after that).

Orks exist for war. It's all about the fight; who is the biggest strongest Ork. Struggle and dominance is all, might is right. If there are no stinkin' humies or bugeyez to stomp, the Orks will happily do each other over. What is the racial goal? To carry on fighting. The Ork outlook is illustrative - if they win, they win, if they die, the opposition can't hurt them and if they run away they can come back and have another go another day. It is impossible to prevail against this mindset; the only way to stop Orks from fighting is to kill all the Orks - an impossibility.

How do they do this? Internecine warfare on Ork held systems, where they fight each other and if they are fortunate, the indigenous hostile life forms who may form good sport for hunting. However, Orks are masters of force field technology and can use this to make a spaceship in almost any state of repair, suitable for travel. This ability to migrate couples with another racial trait - the Waaaagh. Periodically, an Ork will receive messages in his head, that he believes come from the Ork Gods Gork and Mork. He will follow those messages and by force of personality (and brute strength) unify the fighting Ork tribes into a force directed outwards at the nearest alien systems, to conquer and crush all opposition. Luckily for the rest of the galaxy this tends to have a natural saturation point - possibly the fact that an Ork Warboss needs to lead from the front to maintain control means their death is inevitable, and the resulting power struggles in the power vacuum allow the opposition to recover and suppress the now un-unified elements. Whatever, all Waaaagh to date seem to collapse under their own weight. The other option is that the most successful warbosses such as Ghazgkull Mag uruk Thraka have such a high threat index that their opposition will throw everything against them resulting in a hard-stop for the Waaaagh.

Will they succeed? Quite simply, whilst a single Ork remains alive, he will be fighting, and therefore they will have succeeded. Given a spore based reproductive process, it would be well nigh impossible for them not to unless in the face of total extinction - which I contend no race in the galaxy is capable of bringing about.

Tau.

I can't even begin to talk credibly about them. Suffice to say, I don't see them as rampantly expansionist, nor a threat to the Empire of the magnitude of the big three - Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons. Indeed Tau have to deal with these things as well at some point. Sorry to disappoint the Tau enthusiasts, I'll defer to you here.

Necrons (latest (?!) owned and played)

Necrons are quite simple really. The metal bits are the slave race (necrontyr) who serve the psychic beings known as C'tan, as vassals. The aim is the conversion of all living things into psychic energy for consumption by the C'tan. The C'tan aims are quite inscrutable but may be linked to the furtherance of their ancient war with a McGuffin known as the Old Ones. So, kill 'em all - awesome.

How will they do this? At the moment, slowly. Most of the untold millions of Necrons are 'slumbering' on massive tomb worlds - some of which have been unwittingly colonised by younger races. Something unclear has triggered a waking and massive legions slowly fight and kill everything in their way. There seems to be no overarching strategy beyond total conquest.

Can they succeed? Militarily, I have to say, not without setting the big C'tan alarm clock and getting ALL the metal boys into the action with concerted aims. Concentration of force and all that - without this I can see them having localised victories only, but not any serious territorial gains. Also, if the C'tan need life force then they must get a sustainable source - a la The Matrix - so farming rather than destroying sentient life.
Whilst this would imply a need for serious change (stand by next codex) they have one thing in their favour - a mysterious ability to disappear back to some central point when enough of their force is rendered inoperative. This includes all pieces of - no prisoners, not much wreckage for examination. Phase out, their implacable nature, the unknown basis of their technology and the fact they are machines means they have not got the same issues of supplying their forces that other races do - logistically they need nothing more than they have and they disappear and repair and come back if confronted with sufficient force. All living races threaten their aims by resisting, but the very nature of the Necrons, combined with no emotions nor even a beast-like flight or fight reaction, leads me to rate them as one of the top 3 threats facing the Imperium. You literally have to disintegrate or stasis them to stop them coming back at a later time, and I don't think any race could do this.

Tyranids.

Another simple race with a simple goal. Come into galaxy/planetary system/solar system. Subsume all living matter, use the genetic material to adapt to new life forms as needed, leave only a lifeless rock. Rinse and repeat.

How do they do this? I won't go into details about spores and the stages of invasion. All you need to know is that an all-pervasive Hive Mind controls all creatures influencing them to achieve these aims to the disregard of every other consideration. Attack until there is insufficient genetic material left in that part of the hive fleet to continue.

Can they succeed? I can't say Tyranids are anything other than all or nothing. They don't seem to attack a system, get repulsed, and then go away with forces intact. They throw everything in until the entire Hive Fleet in question is successful or dead. Key issues hinted at yet unexplored fully, are how Tyranids adopt some characteristics of races conquered and subsumed. There used to be mentions of Ork/tyranid crosses in early fluff. So what happens if they successfully adapt Geneseed? The Genestealers and their various hybrid stages are examples of relative sentience to the extent of tool use and, although this is mainly not referred to any more, there is scope for thinking, reasoning power behind or in conjunction with the Hive Mind. That said, whilst I think the Tyranids could possibly conquer the Imperium, (hence I rate them as the second greatest threat to the Imperium) I don't think they could conquer all races. Firstly, pure Necrons without flesh would hold no interest for them and could operate on a world stripped bare of all mineral and oxygen by Tyranid attack. Hence I think the Tyranids would ignore them except to defend against attack - I don't know what benefit C'tan would get from the life force of Tyranids but expect the sentience is what they want, not just un-reasoning life - otherwise C'tan would have evolved as vegetarians. Secondly, I don't think Tyranids could prevail against Chaos. As Tyranids destroy planets their power grows. But there would be a point at which if successful, the growth to death rate would result in a death scream the equal of that caused by the fall of the Eldar - presumably contributing to a 5th Chaos God. This, combined with an inability to conquer (probably) the Eye of Terror and (definitely) not the Warp means Tyranids could never truly vanquish Chaos.

Chaos (My main army, World Eaters played since 2ed.)

Chaos is interesting in that it has 2 clear but split goals. Firstly, the non-daemonic elements of the Traitor Legions and any renegades, want the overthrow of the Empire and the total domination of all mankind by themselves. The daemonic element want to overrun the boundaries of warpspace until there is free run between the both - in effect the Warp overtakes reality so Daemons can control literally all existence according to the whims of the 4 Gods. To complicate this some of the non-daemonic servants work to the second aim in order to achieve the first.

Can either be achieved? The first is attempted by 2 means - forcing a way out of the Eye of Terror and into the Empire, or supporting insurrection in the wider Empire but then using the rebels as proxies, or even taking over fully. To date, whilst the Cadian Gate guarding the Eye of Terror has been repeatedly ravaged, it has never fallen. Whilst some elements from within the Eye get out to support or sponsor rebellions, none of those has been more than temporary (in the face of 10000-ish years of Imperial History).

As to eroding the barriers between the Warp and realspace, this relies on encouraging sufficient external persons or un-regulated psykers to hold sufficient rituals to allow a daemon to physically manifest. The more sustained the ritual, the bigger the incursion. However, to date, serious incursions are limited by their distance from the Eye of Terror or actual support - a sufficiently big incursion attracts swift retribution and therefore is suppressed, with daemons being banished. To date no Imperial World in realspace has been converted into a daemonworld and then maintained as such - although the level of incursion may be such that the Imperium feels obliged to totally destroy a planet to deny it to the Arch Enemy.

The Greatest threat to Chaos is the Imperium denying them. However in the face of an apparently weakening Emperor, and beset on all sides, I feel there is a natural point at which the Imperium could no longer defend the Cadian Gate. The only thing preventing the entire contents of the Eye of Terror spilling out in such a circumstance is the lack of unified leadership - Abaddon has not been all that successful to date, but should he maintain control, there is a point beyond which an over-brittle Empire must expire. I rate Chaos as the single greatest threat to the Empire, particularly as half of the threat (the daemons) can exist in warpspace and do not need the logistical constraints of realspace to survive - they would quite happily turn it into the Warp at the drop of a hat.

The Empire of Man (Codex SM, SW and IG owned and played since 2ed until now. GK owned, DH played, WH played).

What does the Empire want? Well as arguably the backdrop to which the game and the universe is played, they have the hardest job. Firstly, survive against all the threats there and stated above. Second, presumably expand. I am not going to break down faction goals.

How do they survive against threats? Using the Astronomican for travel through the Warp, a mix of PDF as initial defence, with IG as the back-up and SM as the ultimate sanction - stand fast SoB where the Ecclisiarchy has an interest. GK when it all goes really Pete Tong. Pure military power. The Cadian Gate against the Chaos threat, the Inq/GK against the Chaos Daemon threat. Conventional military against all other threats as necessary.

But what about expansion? Unlike the Exploratory fleets of the Crusade, this seems to be mainly the purview of sanctioned Rogue Traders who chip around on the edge of Imperial space. Now and again an area marooned by warp storms will become passable and thus the Empire re-conquers that territory if able. Sometimes, power levels and desire of the Council of High Lords of Terra will allow or even compel a new crusade of the ilk of Macharius. Mostly, crusading is internal housekeeping against worlds lost to any threat. Overall, it would seem that more worlds are lost to external threats or exterminatus, than are discovered/conquered/resettled.

Now, I have detailed what I think of as the most significant threats to the Empire as Necrons third, Tyranids second, and Chaos first and foremost. Can the Empire survive against the Necrons? Assuming they don't all rise at once (which to date they are not) yes. Can the Empire survive against the Tyranids? Having defeated 2 out of 3 Hive fleets, and having a massive Inquisitorial cordon in place to allow 2 whole Battlefleets to muster, I would say probably - records (fluff) show only a dozen chapters of marines are involved and this is a drop in the ocean of the usually accepted sum of 1000 chapters. Can the Imperium endure against Chaos? To date it has - every Black Crusade weakens Abaddon's stock of original Legionnaires and even those 9 Legion size formations can only replace so often from the dubious genetic stock in the Eye. The obvious question - can the Empire survive against all 3 at once? Well it is - just. But it is truly the death of 1000 cuts.

What would reverse this? The only thing I can think of would be a leader unifying all the diverse political elements (Admech, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition etc) with a focus of Grand Universal Strategy similar to the Great Crusade. This will either need a reconstituted Emperor or someone of similar stature - Guilliman in stasis perhaps?

Hopefully this small missive will give some food for thought about who would possibly come out on top - I don't think it points to a defeated Empire by any means - more likely lazy or contradictory fluff points to an Empire whose fate seems inexorable if things carry on how they are.

MarneusCalgar
08-31-2011, 03:32 PM
Well, first of all... GREAT ARTICLE!!

Second... I like it

And third... About what you say, by parts:

- As you say, if all enemies of the Empire would conspire to defeat it, we sure fall into doom. But... we have seen impure allegiances between blood angels and necrons, so... Iīm not sure that would happen.

- About the possible leader... Donīt forget that Marneus himself defeated an Avatar, Khaineīs spirit personifications, so if a simple marine leader can hold against an Eldar godīs presence... Mankind is well guarded. Itīs clear somehow that the Emperor will come back, and even Roboute will "resurrect" (in Macragge is told the body of the Primarch is healing), but now I would put all my hopes into Leman Russ... We donīt know even if heīs dead, neither alive, but he promised to come back in the last of battles. And knowing he was the hand that executioned all Emperorīs desires...

Donīt also forget Chaos Primarchs hardly get back into galaxy to fight

Drew da Destroya
09-01-2011, 02:39 PM
Good writeup, man.

You're right in that the DE aren't really interested in race-wide goals so much as individual status, but an individual/cabal/cult/coven that brought down the Imperium would probably be awarded a good deal of personal status as well. I don't think I've seen anything in the fluff that indicates anyone is trying this, admittedly, since it's a pretty monumental task, but it's a thought.

Kawauso
09-01-2011, 05:03 PM
Nice post.

With regard to the Imperium withstanding Tyranids - they've only defeated the very first vanguard elements of two hive fleets. The worst is yet to come.

Any galaxy map detailing the movements of the hive fleets indicates that even the most massive Tyranid invasion thus far is but the tiniest display of the untold numbers that are steadily encroaching on the galaxy from beyond.

Also, regarding Calgar's comment about the whole BA and Necron deal...that was an alliance of convenience. That's all it was. Happens all the time in 40k, other works of fiction, and the real world, even. The Tyranids were too great a threat for either to handle on their own - especially if they were at each other's throats - so they united to stop the Tyranids. They didn't continue fighting immediately afterwards (as was the case when the Necrons once allied with the Tau under similar circumstances) presumably because both sides had to pull back and lick their wounds. The Blood Angels would have found it distasteful to turn on someone so soon after receiving aid from them, but they're honourable. I doubt the Necrons would have given it a second though if they'd had the capability to continue hostilities with the Blood Angels.

MarneusCalgar
09-01-2011, 05:42 PM
Yes, hehehe

Hope they donīt ally between themselves to attack the Empire... Because a coordinated Tau/Dark Eldar/Necron attack should be very bad, and more if Chaos wants to take advantage while this.

Kawauso
09-01-2011, 05:58 PM
That would be bad.

But DE have nothing to gain in such an allegiance - or in dismantling the Imperium, really.

And I don't think Tau/Necrons (and especially Chaos) could form any such lasting alliance - alliances of convenience don't last long enough for such protracted campaigns.

And the Tau are starting to wise up to what a terrible place the galaxy is, anyhow. They've stopped trying to convert Orks to the Greater Good, after all. I'll assume that after one of their battle forces was eliminated by friendly 'crons after a successful campaign against the Tyranids that they'd be more wary of the toasters, now.

eldargal
09-01-2011, 11:51 PM
Biel-Tan want to restore the Eldar Empire, but this doesn't exactly mean a return to pre-Fall Eldar as they would still need to use the Path system to stop themselves getting et by Slaanesh.

Denzark
09-02-2011, 02:35 AM
Thanks for the comments (and taking the time to read a quick mind vomit of 3k+ words!).

Kawauso, I find it interesting it is the 2 eastern fringe approaches that have been stalled and Leviathan from the 'South' of the galactic map is causing the most problems.

EG, never new that about Biel Tan (and I wish you wouldn't get up so early the thought makes my head hurt).

I think that the Empire needs to gear to total war, where everything is pushed into the effort - it seems to date the reaction of the HLOT is to firefight rather than prepare for a defence.

eldargal
09-02-2011, 03:48 AM
Hehe, sorry, I've trained myself to get up at 5am so I can go out and shoot pheasants and whatnot in the face, now I can't stop gettingup early. Unless I have insomnia in which case I tend to sleep in:rolleyes:

Speaking of total war, I think it was mentioned in the tyranid codex that the Imperium is considering a total war footing in one (or all?) segmenta which involves 500% recruitment and manufacturing increase to support the military.

Drew da Destroya
09-02-2011, 11:17 AM
They didn't continue fighting immediately afterwards (as was the case when the Necrons once allied with the Tau under similar circumstances) presumably because both sides had to pull back and lick their wounds. The Blood Angels would have found it distasteful to turn on someone so soon after receiving aid from them, but they're honourable. I doubt the Necrons would have given it a second though if they'd had the capability to continue hostilities with the Blood Angels.

Because it's loads of fun to re-open cans of worms and re-argue things that've been beaten to death across the length and breadth of the internet...

I find two major issues with this reasoning (which I realize is the reasoning given in the much-maligned paragraph in question, so I'm not trying to attack you, Kawauso... just Ward). Firstly, why would the Necron have to retreat to lick their wounds? The damaged ones would've teleported back to home base, and the remainder would've seen the apparently-wrecked Blood Angels as easy harvesting.

Secondly, while I accept that the Blood Angels are one of the more honorable SM groups (at least, as honorable as an army of barely-restrained bloodthirsty psychopaths can be), their first duty is the defense of Mankind. You know, Purge the Heretic, the Mutant, and the Xenos? Why would they abandon their duty to their Emperor and their Primarch just because the Necron helped wipe out another enemy of Mankind?

The whole thing just strikes me as being completely out of character for both armies. But all of this has been said before.

Kawauso
09-02-2011, 01:19 PM
I find two major issues with this reasoning (which I realize is the reasoning given in the much-maligned paragraph in question, so I'm not trying to attack you, Kawauso... just Ward). Firstly, why would the Necron have to retreat to lick their wounds? The damaged ones would've teleported back to home base, and the remainder would've seen the apparently-wrecked Blood Angels as easy harvesting.

Secondly, while I accept that the Blood Angels are one of the more honorable SM groups (at least, as honorable as an army of barely-restrained bloodthirsty psychopaths can be), their first duty is the defense of Mankind. You know, Purge the Heretic, the Mutant, and the Xenos? Why would they abandon their duty to their Emperor and their Primarch just because the Necron helped wipe out another enemy of Mankind?

The whole thing just strikes me as being completely out of character for both armies. But all of this has been said before.

I just don't see it that way.

I mean, first of all, it's a metaphorical 'licking of wounds' for the Necrons retreat. I find it perfectly reasonable to think that they might not have the necessary resources available to defeat the Blood Angels after taking on a hive fleet. Yes, all of their damaged brethren would have phased out - doesn't mean that they'd have enough left on the battlefield to continue what would turn into a protracted campaign.

Regarding the Blood Angels - all branches of the Imperium (including the Inquisition) 'abandon their duty' in this manner -all the time-. Alliances of convenience are made tons of times in 40k fiction...because realistically it's impossible to expect Imperial forces to try to kill everything non-human at all times ever. There are simply times where it's more tactically sound to ally with the enemy of your enemy, for example.

Think of how many times Marines have 'allied' with Eldar, for example. Or in one of the Ciaphas Cain novels, an entire book is spent where the deployed IG forces are doing everything in their power to -avoid- starting a shooting war with the Tau, who have all but conquered the planet through political guile.

Also, no offense taken. :)
I know this particular example is a point of contention for a lot of people, but I've never really had a problem with it...just like I've never had a problem with transport vehicle scale in 40k, for example (i.e. Rhinos are actually larger than they probably need to be, not smaller), but that's something that a lot of people seem to find odd. I just like getting my 2 cents in on these points from time to time. ;)

eldargal
09-02-2011, 10:55 PM
Neither Necrons nor Blood Angels are stupid. If the Necrons calculated that a battle with the Blood Angels would have put their long term interests at risk, they could easily choose to back off. While the Blood Angels would weigh the risk of an unsupported assault on a Necron force of unknown strength with the possibilities of running out of ammunition, losing geneseed etc all against a foe that had just aided them and wasn't showing any hostile intent for their own reasons.

I think it shows that both Space Marines and Necrons aren't stupid.

Kawauso
09-03-2011, 12:06 PM
Exactly. I think people are looking at the fluff too absolutely when they have issues with temporary alliances like these.

It's not like the BA would ever have a long-term alliance with any xeno faction...-that- is something that would never, ever happen.

Remember the Imperium does hypocritical, heretical things all the time if it suits its own interests.

Wildeybeast
09-03-2011, 06:56 PM
In my opinion, if Ahriman unlocks the key to the Webways, and gets to the Black Library, its game over. However, given Ahriman has not achieved Daemonhood, I reckon this means Tzeentch/Magnus is still p*ssed with him about the Rubric - and also a further fall will strengthen Slaanesh. I don't think Ahriman will succeed without Tzeentch so I think the Eldar will carry on.


Tau.

I can't even begin to talk credibly about them. Suffice to say, I don't see them as rampantly expansionist, nor a threat to the Empire of the magnitude of the big three - Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons. Indeed Tau have to deal with these things as well at some point. Sorry to disappoint the Tau enthusiasts, I'll defer to you here.



1) SPOILER ALERT. Having just finished the HH novel Thousand Sons, it seems clear to me that Ahriman has not achieved demon hood because he is still, on some level loyal to the Emperor. The end of the book makes it clear that everything he does subsequent to their 'fall' is to prove that his legion was always loyal. I think he is simply using Chaos to his own ends, and whilst no one does so without being at least partially corrupted, I don't think that Ahriman is in thrall to Chaos. He has learned from Magnus' mistakes, and knows that whilst he can never control it, he can use for his own devices.

2)Tau. Their goal is simple. Unite all races under the ideal of the greater good. The Tau live, quite literally, in a state of blissful harmony and cooperation where all problems are overcome through their combined strength and everyone works towards the progression of their race. They wish for all races to work together, in harmony, to better themselves and others. The downside to this is that not everyone agrees with them. They have learned (painfully) that races like the Orks and Tyranids can never be integrated into their philosophy and way of life and will always seek to destroy it, thus they must be exterminated. Some races willingly accept the benefits of the greater good and peacefully become 'client' races of the Tau. Some, such as humanity, will accpet the benefits of the greater good, but may need forcibly 'enlightening'. There are a raft of conquered human worlds on the edge of Tau space, where the humans have seen the benefits of Tau techonology, freedom and protection and have happliy embraced their new role, relquishing all ties to the Imperium. So, whilst the Tau are not overtly agressive, they see it as their manifest destiny to unite the galaxy under the greater good, and will do so through force if peacefull means prove unsuccesful. However, the destruction of other races is only an absolute last resort (they spent a long time trying to reason with the Orks after first contact before they finally realised how futile it was).

As to the threat the Tau psoe to the Imperium, it is comparitively pathetic. They are just one of dozens of alien races carving themselves empires in the eastern fringe and they pose no more of a threat than any of the others. The problem is in their potential. In the space of 5000 years they have gone from primitive tribal groups with basic gunpowder weaponry to possessing technology that rivals that of the imperium and is in many ways better and which is continually improving. Their empire, whilst small, is expanding at rapid rate and their unity of purpose means they will only continue to grow as threat. The Imperim has already staged one failed crusade against them (Damocles) and has realised their worth as noble opponents and their use as a buffer against the Tyranids. The two are not in state of open war, but the Tau continue to annex Imperial worlds, which ineveitably leads to conflict.

Michael_maggs
09-04-2011, 03:37 AM
1) SPOILER ALERT. Having just finished the HH novel Thousand Sons, it seems clear to me that Ahriman has not achieved demon hood because he is still, on some level loyal to the Emperor. The end of the book makes it clear that everything he does subsequent to their 'fall' is to prove that his legion was always loyal. I think he is simply using Chaos to his own ends, and whilst no one does so without being at least partially corrupted, I don't think that Ahriman is in thrall to Chaos. He has learned from Magnus' mistakes, and knows that whilst he can never control it, he can use for his own devices.



although i would agree that Ahriman is not in the thrall of chaos i would say he is definatly a puppet of tzeentch. when Ahriman cast the rubic Magnus was about to kill him when tzeentch interviened and Ahriman was instead exiled to complete an impossible task; to learn the ways of tzeentch. as the chaotic mutations that afflicted his legion bare personal pain to Ahriman in the form of his dead brother i can only imagine he relished the chance if it ment he could take his revenge. this ambition has caused more of a personal submition to tzeentch than any ambition to overthrow the imperium.

i would also have to part disagree with the racial goals of chaos and say that they are more akin to DE in that each champion fall for a different reason.

ie. both Abbadon and Magnus want to overthrow the imperium but only Abbadon wants to rule by following the path of his mentor Horus while Magnus wants to obliterate the Imperium for its shortsightedness in using the warp and the persicution of his kind amplified by exile to the planet of the sorcerers

other examples are Kharn who kills to forget the incident on Prospero where a loyalist thousand son implants guilt and regret over his weakness to resist the temptations of chaos (Age of Darkness). and lets not forget the guy owho calls himself "Alpharius" who seems to be waging a personal vendetta against the ultramarines and their successor chapters.

I would say that although the overriding goal of chaos as an entity is to overthrow and enslave the Imperium as it presents the largest threat in the form of a immovable bastion centred around the faith in an all saving diety but for the material agents the aims are highly individualistic and personalised.

Michael_maggs
09-04-2011, 03:49 AM
In my opinion, if Ahriman unlocks the key to the Webways, and gets to the Black Library, its game over. However, given Ahriman has not achieved Daemonhood, I reckon this means Tzeentch/Magnus is still p*ssed with him about the Rubric - and also a further fall will strengthen Slaanesh. I don't think Ahriman will succeed without Tzeentch so I think the Eldar will carry on.



by the way in the third Blood ravens book Ahriman forced his way into the black library but was repelled by a temporary alliance between the blood angels and the harlequins. but the black library isn't Ahrimans real goal but just a step towards is ultimate ambition: to enter the Library of tzeentch, where the changer of ways resides and the only possibilityof completing his impossible task.

it would be interesting to see how, if it ever was possible, for ahriman to complete this as it would either greatly strengthen the power of chaos, as Ahrimans knowledge would equal Tzeentch, or weaken it as both would enter eternal conflict, i am assuming the power Ahriman would need to enter the forbidden library would elevate him beyond the status of a demon prince to the level of a chaos god

Wildeybeast
09-04-2011, 08:27 AM
and lets not forget the guy owho calls himself "Alpharius" who seems to be waging a personal vendetta against the ultramarines and their successor chapters.

As in Alpharius, primarch of the Alpha legion, or someone else wandering around using his name?

Drew da Destroya
09-04-2011, 05:42 PM
Exactly. I think people are looking at the fluff too absolutely when they have issues with temporary alliances like these.

It's not like the BA would ever have a long-term alliance with any xeno faction...-that- is something that would never, ever happen.

Remember the Imperium does hypocritical, heretical things all the time if it suits its own interests.

Both you and Eldargal bring up excellent points. I'd like to point out that I don't actually have a problem with the alliance of convenience as it stands... it makes plenty of sense given the situation. I just don't like the aftermath at all.

Both of you also bring up excellent points as to why neither faction chooses to pursue combat after the Tyranid lose... my problem is that none of those points are brought up by the text itself. All we get is that the Necron back off due to casualties, and the Blood Angels don't want to finish off a former temporary ally.

The text puts the Necron in a vulnerable spot, where the (inferring from the text, because the Necron wouldn't be retreating if they weren't the inferior force) superior Blood Angel forces could deal a truly crippling blow to them, but instead the Blood Angels tip their caps and leave the planet. It's just odd. Why leave an enemy down, but not out, when you're apparently in the position to finish them? Why leave them to regroup, get stronger, and then take you out? It's just bad strategy.

Kawauso
09-04-2011, 06:57 PM
The honourable thing to do is not always the intelligent or logical thing to do.

Poor Eddard Stark. :(

daboarder
09-06-2011, 05:46 AM
Neither Necrons nor Blood Angels are stupid. If the Necrons calculated that a battle with the Blood Angels would have put their long term interests at risk, they could easily choose to back off. While the Blood Angels would weigh the risk of an unsupported assault on a Necron force of unknown strength with the possibilities of running out of ammunition, losing geneseed etc all against a foe that had just aided them and wasn't showing any hostile intent for their own reasons.

I think it shows that both Space Marines and Necrons aren't stupid.

I dunno Eldargirl, they may not be stupid but they are rabidly Xenophobic and while I can understand an alliance of convenience as soon as its done they will happly go back to slaughtering each other even if it means their own destruction "suffer not the alien".

eldargal
09-06-2011, 06:40 AM
Yes but generally there is no indication that Marines are suicidal, if they feel they aren't in a position to do a whole lot of good they will withdraw. Once they are engaged in combat they tend not to give up, but at this point they haven't been attacked by the Necrons. I really think this piece of fluff was well done in that it points to more depth in both the Marines and the Necrons. Something that was sorely needed in both counts.:rolleyes:

Wildeybeast
09-06-2011, 01:01 PM
The Tau and Tyranid codexes shed some light on the way the Imperium approaches the issue of alliances and attitudes to xenos. As you might expect, ti depends entirely on the personality of the commander. During the Damocles Gulf crusade, The Imperium gets booged down in a meat grinder on a heavily populated Tau world and is forced to withdraw due to the cost in terms of man power and the threat posed by Tyranids. The Inquistion forces advocate exterminatus on the Tau world as they withdraw, something which is vetoed by the Guard and SM commanders as they have found the Tau to be honourable opponents, showing that the rampant xenophobia espoused by officials isn't necessarily shared by the men on the ground.
In another account, Tau and Imperial fleets are forced to unite to defeat a Tyranid invasion, but the second the Tyranid fleet is routed, the Imperial resume their attacks on the Tau, something the Tau are more than expecting.
So, just because officials on Terra hate xenos with an undying passion, doesn't mean everyone does. Soldiers (super and regular human) have no love for them, but that doesn't mean they will automatically wipe them out at every chance. Soemtimes prudence and/or honour take predence over Imperial doctirne and dogma.