The Imperium - Dying out or going strong?

[Denzark]

A recent debate on BoLS main was in response to a Goatboy post about the fluff and how it ought to progress. On comment from a person responding to me was about how it would be nice to see the Imperium kick arse - go on a serious offensive and whup some xenos scum.

Now this got me thinking.

Is the Imperium really in retreat on all fronts? Is there no more expansion and merely a long term rearguard action?

Personally think this is unlikely. I can think of several events that counter this off the top of my head. Did the Hive Fleet which did Macragge not get a slapping? Did the Hive fleet of this current tranche of invasions (with the Inquisitor Kryptman fluff) not get spanked as well? Macharian Crusade? Badab War? Have the Ultramarines not slapped the Tau into submission? Is the crusade referred to in GG not slowly succeeding?

I could see it being the case that you only hear about Imperial defeat or close things as this is interesting. A rampant resurgent Empire never in strife makes for poor reading. I know that traditionally an Empire is only seen as strong when it is growing, but is survival without expansion not an awesome achievement in the face of such odds?

Just thought I would throw this thought out there - as a last thought if the Eldar can hang on so long as a dying race when their race is a mere fraction of the power of the Empire of Man, surely that implies some longevity for the Empire?

[Pendragon38]

More or less mankind is in a staelmate with no way to go on a crusade and defend at the same time. Theres to many enameis/races to contained with at the same time.The more they push out there frontire the thinner the line is that needs protacting. Thats my thought.

[BrokenWing]

I would argue that the Imperium is in a state of contraction. There are periods of time in Imperial history where the Imperium decreases in size and goes through hard times and periods where it expands. Right now it has many difficulties and has been in more of a holding action than an expanding one. The only real concern to me is the difficulties with the Astronomicon, which I think was a bad and unnecessary bit of writing to be perfectly honest.

Honestly I'm not a big fan of the "lets piss on the Imperium" trend in much of the fluff. I know we want grim darkness, but eventually you can have too much darkness and way over do it.

[Freefall945]

The current rulebook opens with a lament about the Imperium being doomed, and they really racheted up the "doomedness" in this edition. The fluff has taken a turn from "Phyrric victory ad nihilum" to "Epitaph of mankind". That could be a good or bad thing. As an Eldar player (and one who experiences that strange sense of nationalism to a fictional race in a fictional universe) I would very much like the Imperium to redouble and press back against its enemies. They make for a gratifying shield and weapon to wield against the vast powers arrayed against the Eldar remnants.

Anyway, the fluff's pretty solid in suggesting how direly perilous the Imperium's situation is. Nothing short of a lore revision, or the Emperor getting off his dusty backside will rescue them. IMHO.

[Kovnik Obama]

My take on it is that the feel of the setting implies a large helping of 'DOOOOOOOM', and for just about everyone. The galaxy, when we think about it, is so damn large, that the mouvance of the battlegrounds and the momentum of each forces seems really devoid of sense (on the largest scale possible). The only constant is, and will ever be, WAR!

The Imperium might well be on its downfall for another 10, 000 years. Even if Terra were to fall. Capitals can be relocated.

The one thing that I feel is contrary to this large scale DOOOM factor, is the prevalence (in the fluff) of small named forces, and repetitive use of same locations. There might be an endless numbers of systems in the Imperium, but we sure only seem to focus on Armaggedon, Maccrage and Cadia. In a same way, the same 5-10 armed forces consisting of less than a thousand mans seems capable of fending off all the enemies that besiege the Imperium ''on all sides'' Which is understandable, because you want to create recognition and attachment to the 'good guys'. But it is nonetheless going against the feel that billions upon billions are endlessly fighting across thousands of world all at once.

[MarneusCalgar]

For me, the Imperium is half falling in disgrace...

It lost the Emperor´s reference, and last 10.000 years has declined. Horus Heresy did a great hurt in the heart of the Empire, and Space Marines and Inquisition hardly make it to defend all territories of the Empire. Now we have many enemies: remnants of Eldar stay apart, but we have Tau Empire rising, Necrons coming back, Chaos, Tyranid Hive Fleets...

So I think maybe in 6th or 7th Ed the theme will be to recover the Empire from it remnants...

[eldargal]

I don't think the Imperiums position is deteriorating in any signficant fashion, but the fluff I think reflects the feeling within the Imperium of standing upon the precipice. It reminds me of the apocalyptic morbidity of the late middle ages with the black death and all sorts of nastiness going on.

[Kovnik Obama]

It reminds me of the apocalyptic morbidity of the late middle ages with the black death and all sorts of nastiness going on.

I've always pictured the average life of an Imperial citizen to resemble that of the Scrapyard in Gunnm. It just sucks, badly. You work you're whole life with no safety whatsoever in the most lawless of land. And if by dumb luck you get to be born on Tiphares, well, lucky you, you're now a cog in a fascist state. You win the right to die horribly in some conflict you had no chance of winning.

(God I hope Cameron doesn't misrepresent my lovely interplanetary terrorist)

[Alpha Omega Protocol]

I think that since the Golden Throne is starting to fail, and it just seems that these last years of M41 is going to hell; that we'll see the Imperium get humbled and pounded till the last hope rests with the Emperor resurrecting/getting healed leading a last crusade to save the Imperium before it is engulfed by its enemies!

[BrokenWing]

I hope not, that sounds really boring. What is new and interesting about the Imperium losing all the time?

[Alpha Omega Protocol]

I hope not, that sounds really boring. What is new and interesting about the Imperium losing all the time?

I agree, but the only thing I can think that would be interesting is the Emperor renewing a crusade against all enemies. We may even see the Imperium progress on a technological level.

Kind of like the bigger you are the harder you fall. Then the exciting part will be getting back up again stronger then before the fall with the Emperor at the helm.

I don't know if it would happen that way, but it is what I think will happen.

[MarneusCalgar]

As I´ve told on Denzark´s thread...

Seems clear, knowing some of the fluff and predictions, that Emperor, Guilliman and Russ will return, somehow, some kind of way, retaking their leaderships or inspiring actual leaders into final victory against the enemies...

Would we see some other enemies from other galaxies?? Apart from nids, of course

[Thornblood]

I think that the genius of the GW fluff is that it sits in the tension between these two values. There are thousands of examples for both sides, and always examples of how awesome the army in question in there army book/fluff is. With more and more imperial dex's we are seeing more and more pro imperial fluff, that dosn't have any bearing on how humanities fight is going.

In regards to the next edition the Imperium is likely to take a massive hit.

[Denzark]

Why?

[Grailkeeper]

I think its in a constant state of Ebb and Flood- for every loss there will eventually be a victory somewhere else, and vice versa. It'll never regain its lost glories but its not doomed. If you last ten thousand years you have to be doing something right.

[Thornblood]

Denzark- if your "why?" was addressed to me then this is my answer;

I beleive currently the Imperium is maintaining. Not growing, but besiged on all sides, winning victories in equal measure to defeats, and many battles being inconsequential either way.

I believe the Imperium will take a hit soon if the Necron rumours are to be believed. Also, with so many Imperial codex's, I think GW is becoming aware that some of the 'flavour' of 40k is going because of the over-saturation of imperial armies, which has been only rivaled by the Dark eldar overhaul. The Necrons are soon to get a similar overhaul, hopefully with as much or even more success.

With Chaos being long overdue for a re-vamp I think that must be somewhere on the horizon. The new marketing strategy focussed heavily on cross-army compatibility (Storm of Magic, the forthcoming Imperial Guard Stormtroopers everything power armoured under the sun). I think a Chaos revamp after the last model releases would create a boom in sales across all power armoured ranges.

So if the stte of the 40k background is going to change, i think the necrons and chaos are likely to wax in power and the Imperium start to wane.

[Javin]

I feel currently the Imperium is stagnating but not failing. With so many wars, grand invasions, etc going on, the Imperium does not seem to be shrinking much. I can only assume explorer fleets are still settling planets and the Mechanicum is still building new forge worlds (if only to replace the lost ones).

Chaos seems to have taken a seat back to all the xenos but that might just be Chaos plotting in the background. Nids, Necrons, and Orkz seem to be the big threats out there right now. Tau, Eldar, and DE seem to be minor players (who can swing battles whenever they show).

I would like a bit more victory stories for the Imperium. Every FW book and almost every BL book has the Imperium losing (unless it is about Space Marines and even then the Marines get mauled).

I do not play fantasy because the fluff already has mankind doomed with no chance of survival. I hope 40K does not go the same way.

[Thornblood]

Javin- I would like to enquire as to your opinion on the fantasy background.

Whilst I think the Storm of Chaos left the Empire somewhat run down, I think they wrote in the 'Valten' safeguard and the empire has plenty of heroes keeping its borders secure. Whenever a great evil turns up, a Human hero emerges. Wether he be Valten, Luthor Huss, or Johann Van Helsing. Sometimes we even get old heroes returned, like the Grand Theogonist Valkmar

Brettonia too seems relatively safe. Border scuffles with wood elves and occasional undead. Just enough of a reason to keep a standing army.

The Border Princes seem to be in a constant state of infighting, but nonetheless humanity wins

And Estalia, Tilea, Sartosa (if thats not part of Tilea) and the like seem to be quite comfortable, wealthy and almost peaceful.

Humans seem safe to me.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I agree with BW. I am sick to death of the constant doom and gloom Imperium dying, humanity on the edge crap. When a real empire begins to go south, new and more vibrant states emerge. Why does humanity as a whole have to be tied to one mega-state? Another thing that often happens is that old enemies inevitably start to turn on each other thus giving the empire a chance to take a second wind. Consider Ottoman Turkey's revival in the early 19th century.

At what point in the 40k reality will the enemies of the Imperium start to turn on each other in a serious way? Yes, there is the odd bit of fluff involving Orks vs. Chaos or something of that ilk, but let's face it: the standard fluff is almost everybody vs. the empire.

Personally, I would love to see what the spiky geeks of Chaos would do when the Nids start knocking on the door of the Eye. Now THAT would be interesting.

[Wildeybeast]

Javin- I would like to enquire as to your opinion on the fantasy background.

Whilst I think the Storm of Chaos left the Empire somewhat run down, I think they wrote in the 'Valten' safeguard and the empire has plenty of heroes keeping its borders secure. Whenever a great evil turns up, a Human hero emerges. Wether he be Valten, Luthor Huss, or Johann Van Helsing. Sometimes we even get old heroes returned, like the Grand Theogonist Valkmar

Brettonia too seems relatively safe. Border scuffles with wood elves and occasional undead. Just enough of a reason to keep a standing army.

The Border Princes seem to be in a constant state of infighting, but nonetheless humanity wins

And Estalia, Tilea, Sartosa (if thats not part of Tilea) and the like seem to be quite comfortable, wealthy and almost peaceful.

Humans seem safe to me.

I have to strongly disagree. This was the case up to the current edition, but the backgorund in the new rulebook really cranks up the 'darkness' of the world and makes it clear that the Empire and Bretonnia to a lesser extent exist in state of perpetual war. They have to fight Chaos, Orks and Beastmen from both without and within on a constant basis as well as raids by OK, TK and DE on a regualr basis. Then they frequently squabble with each other and Bretonnia. Bear in mind that the Bretonnia and the Empire in particular are very sparsely populated, with just isolated population centres, so when one of these falls it is a big blow.

[TheRise]

More worlds are burning. more civilisations are being destroyed. Xenos and chaos forces are moving in on all sides, and killing themselves yet multiplying. And the the Golden Throne has a major flaw which means the Emperor is comign to his death.
Its all in the fluff. I'm sorry but its fairly obvious how it will end.
The Imperium will be destroyed and other intelligent xenos races will be wiped out by the never ending tides of Chaos, Ork and Tyranid forces will eventualy become in small numbers, and the Chaos Gods will fall as they have no purpose. Then the Universe will end... and so will GW's reign ;)

[eldargal]

Actually that is supposition, irreperable flaws have been noticed in the Golden Throne, but we don't know what they are. For all we know it could be the automatic waste disposal unit is buggered up and they will have to send in a servitor once a day to muck the Emperor out. We also know from published Black Library fluff that the Imperium endures perfectly well for decades more (in the Cain series I believe) at least.

[Porty1119]

I agree with BW. I am sick to death of the constant doom and gloom Imperium dying, humanity on the edge crap. When a real empire begins to go south, new and more vibrant states emerge. Why does humanity as a whole have to be tied to one mega-state? Another thing that often happens is that old enemies inevitably start to turn on each other thus giving the empire a chance to take a second wind. Consider Ottoman Turkey's revival in the early 19th century.

Personally, I would love to see what the spiky geeks of Chaos would do when the Nids start knocking on the door of the Eye. Now THAT would be interesting.

Agreed on both points. The Nids need to hit more than just the Imperium and Tau.

[UrielVentris]

'the night is always darkest just before the dawn,'


I'll leave it at that =)

[UrielVentris]

'the night is always darkest just before the dawn,'


I'll leave it at that =)

[Etra]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here, so I might as well make it a good one.

I've been playing the game since 2004 and have watched it go from 3rd edition to 4th edition to the current 5th edition. More or less, the Grim Dark rhetoric has always been there - it's less about escalation than it is about strain; the Grim Dark has been around for so long, it feels more dire than it really is.

I've also read nearly every codex, and one thing I've observed is a curiosity in all the timelines:

Mankind had the whole galaxy under their boot before the Emperor walked on stage. The 31st millennium grand crusade was simply an effort to reclaim what was lost.
You read the Horus Heresy books and you see that the Emperor had succeeded - he had won - in about two hundred years. That's all it took for Mankind to dominate the stars.
This means that the Orks, the Eldar, all the Xenos baddies were crushed and forced to hide until it was "safe" to come out. And since then, the Imperium has only gotten better when it comes to waging war.
The Heresy happens and Chaos rears it's ugly head - and this is my favorite part - the longer Chaos goes on, the weaker they get. The Chaos Space Marines codex is filled with examples of Chaos troops killing each other. Chaos certainly isn't getting any stronger. And replacing Space Marines with monsters and traitor Guardsman isn't going to cut it - especially with the way Abaddon keeps screwing up.
Back to the timeline - after the defeat of Horus, there are literally entire centuries where nothing happens - no war or engagement worth noting.
Did anything happen at all in the 32nd millennium? Or was this a period of relative calm and peace during which the Imperium could blossom and grow? True dat - this could be a lack of information of ages past, or it could be that the writers of the lore simply haven't filled in this blank. Just sayin - for every war, there are a million planets where there wasn't war. Where Imperial citizens lived, reproduced, paid taxes, and prayed to the Emperor.
Further analysis of the timeline reveals that the closer M42 approaches, the more rapid and frantic the activity. This is either every race celebrating the Imperium's 10,000th anniversary, or it's a portent to a coming climax to the action.

The Imperium meanwhile still has in vast abundance the one resource they'll ever need - men and women of faith and spirit. True dat - the Emperor was a secular rationalist, but above all he demanded of his Space Marines loyalty and certainty that their cause was righteous and just. The Imperium elicits the same from their populace. Even if the Imperium is dark and cruel, ruled by malice and fear, so long as humanity will volunteer for service, the Imperium will never fall.

So you read about entire worlds being razed, the Tyranids spoiling Macragge and the other jewel worlds in the Ultramarine crown. At the same time, entire Tyranid Hivefleets are wiped out, with centuries needing to pass before another one can form again. Centuries of rebirth and recovery.

You also read laughable speculation that, "if only all the Orks united under a common banner!" A similar message is found in the CSM codex - this is ridiculous because such a maneuver is counter to the core of those factions. Because if Orks started thinking and obeying then they wouldn't be Orks anymore.

*** *** *** *** *** ***

The only problem I see with the Imperium's future are the troubling signals I get from the Mechanicum - frankly they're dangerously incompetent. Mathematics is the most obvious truth, the only genuine constant in the entire galaxy. The numbers that guide a Tau Railgun are the same as the ones guiding a Navigator in a Space Marine's Battlebarge, are the same numbers controlling the combustion timings in a Leman Russ's engine.

All I expect or ask from the Mechanicum is to have the epiphany that magic doesn't power machines, chemistry and physics do. And from that, there's nothing to stop them from rediscovering lost technologies and pioneering new ones. The explanation is that the Mechanicum is not staffed by mathematicians or scientists, but by priests.

Nevermind that just doing their job and going about their routine, the Mechanicum uses techniques that require them to be smarter than they are. This is a huge oversight that Games Workshop has never adequately addressed - something that infuriates me, an engineering student.

*** *** *** *** *** ***

Is the Imperium dying out or going strong?

Absolutely going strong. You have to think - the Imperium is the engine of the entire galaxy. From the Imperium, Chaos steals the men and weapons with which to continue their campaigns. The same is true of the Orks and Tyranids. All of those factions are, at their most threatening, parasites. Because they live off the back of the Imperium, they'll always be second to the Imperium.

The Dark Eldar were never more than an irritation; no Dark Eldar raiding party is going to threaten a Hive or even a Forge World. Both the Eldar and the Necrons just want to be ignored and forgotten, seriously. Those two will never go on the offensive.

The Tau are the only race organized enough to pose a threat, but they never will. Before I explain why, let me list their advantages:
The Tau have a government. For what it's worth, no other faction has a government, except the Imperium.
The Tau are united and embrace cooperation and organization and building. They are growers.
The Tau are cold-blooded, clean, methodical, and thorough. They have science and they use it.
Crises Battlesuits are demonstrably a match to Space Marines, and unlike Space Marines, the Tau can replace and mass-manufacture Crises Battlesuits.

Now, I'll tell you why the Tau will never topple the Imperium, or even pose much of a threat to them: the Imperium already sent a crusading fleet to wipe out the Tau, and only because of Hive Fleet Behemoth did they not succeed. This was one Imperium crusade, among dozens if not hundreds if not thousands, that proved to be more than a match against the entire Tau civilization.

And if the crusade fleet had the means to perform man-made Exterminatus (and not just melting polar caps) then the campaign would have been more one-sided than it had been.

The Tau would lose only because they arrived too late to the party - the Imperium is flawed but too far ahead. The Imperium has more men, weapons, and ships. Done deal.

And that is why the Imperium is still going strong. For all the dysfunction and backwards thinking exhibited by man, these same flaws pervade all the other factions in spades, and they still don't have all the advantages the Imperium squanders.

[eldargal]

No, they had colonies accross most of the galaxy, not all, and they were largely independent as far as we know, not part of some earlier all powerful human Empire.

Mankind had the whole galaxy under their boot before the Emperor walked on stage. The 31st millennium grand crusade was simply an effort to reclaim what was lost.

Wrong, the pre-fall Eldar were so advanced that no other species could threaten them, they ignored humanity because they were sp primitive in comparison as to be irrelevent. When you can switch stars off or capture them and transport them to the webway you don't need to worry what a bunch of primates are doing.


This means that the Orks, the Eldar, all the Xenos baddies were crushed and forced to hide until it was "safe" to come out. And since then, the Imperium has only gotten better when it comes to waging war.

Wrong again, the Dark Eldar can and do assault hive worlds and other large Imperium targets:
p23 of the current DE codex has them assaulting a Hive World
p96 of IA:A2ndEd has them taking 37m people in a single raid (admitedly on an agri world but still its a lot of people)
p129 of the 5th ed BRB has the Dark Eldar crippling the Imperiums Bakka naval base, the naval base for an entire segmentum.

They also do things like divert hive fleets and Ork Waaghs to Hive Worlds to reduce the defenses they will encounter. Labelling the Dark Eldar as nothing more than an irritant is simply ludicrous.

The Dark Eldar were never more than an irritation; no Dark Eldar raiding party is going to threaten a Hive or even a Forge World. Both the Eldar and the Necrons just want to be ignored and forgotten, seriously. Those two will never go on the offensive.

I do agree the Imperium isn't as weak as some people seem to think.

[Etra]

No, they had colonies accross most of the galaxy, not all, and they were largely independent as far as we know, not part of some earlier all powerful human Empire.


Wrong, the pre-fall Eldar were so advanced that no other species could threaten them, they ignored humanity because they were sp primitive in comparison as to be irrelevent. When you can switch stars off or capture them and transport them to the webway you don't need to worry what a bunch of primates are doing.



Wrong again, the Dark Eldar can and do assault hive worlds and other large Imperium targets:
p23 of the current DE codex has them assaulting a Hive World
p96 of IA:A2ndEd has them taking 37m people in a single raid (admitedly on an agri world but still its a lot of people)
p129 of the 5th ed BRB has the Dark Eldar crippling the Imperiums Bakka naval base, the naval base for an entire segmentum.

They also do things like divert hive fleets and Ork Waaghs to Hive Worlds to reduce the defenses they will encounter. Labelling the Dark Eldar as nothing more than an irritant is simply ludicrous.


I do agree the Imperium isn't as weak as some people seem to think.

I stand corrected on those exceptions you outlined, but I stand by my larger point.

[eldargal]

I agree with your larger point, the Imperium is strong. It is decaying slowly, but it is strong.:)

[Hive Mind]

The standard fluff is Imperium vs. everyone else because GW only tells the story of the background thru human eyes. They've said, countless times, that they believe that telling it any other way is an endeavour doomed to failure.

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Etra, your theory on Chaos supposes that there a finite number of CSM; that they consist of only those that 'fell' during the Heresy. This is not true. The fluff mentions SM 'turning' to the Ruinous Powers; sometimes only individuals, sometimes whole squads. In the case of the Astral Claws, an entire (oversize) chapter. In a universe where no-one really knows how many SM chapters there are or have been, no-one knows how many of them have 'fallen', either. You also assume that CSM have no way of recruiting. This may well be an erroneous assumption. The fluff mentions Red Corsairs recruiting and you don't know what happens to the geneseed of fallen CSM. What happens in the Eye of Terror, stays in the Eye of Terror, so to speak.

Your ideas about the Tyranids don't really hang together either. Nowhere is it stated that the Hive Fleets 'need' centuries to recover after taking a mauling, it is just that no-one in the Imperium knows i) where they're coming from and ii) how many there are. Now it's true that the currently known Hive Fleets and their spaced arrivals could represent the majority, if not all, of the Tyranid forces but it's also true that there could be a hundred other Hive Fleets all heading for Imperial space together. Regardless of speculation, the current wars raging along the Eastern Fringe and the Imperium's (unsustainable) strategy of biomass denial suggest that the Hive Fleets are a much bigger thorn in their side than you represent them as.

As for the Orks 'uniting under a common banner', well that's what Thraka is for isn't it? He's managed to give the Imperium a pretty serious kicking twice and while thru Imperial eyes he failed both times, thru Ork eyes he's a leader that has come closest to giving Orks what they all desire; the mother of all battles. Given the Ork fluff of them uniting under whoever will give them the biggest scrap and flocking to that scrap, I don't think it's right to be so casually dismissive of the Ork threat. There's even a quote from some Imperial agent (maybe a Xenos Inquisitor? I don't remember) about how he fears that ultimately Orks will rule the galaxy, not humans.

Then there's the Necrons. No-one knows how pervasive they are and no-one knows how many of them there are. What seems clear is that they are awakening and they are yet another threat to the Imperium, one that is already present (though slumbering) on Imperial worlds. There's also the Machine God angle; if the Mechanicum do 'fall' to Necron worship, the Imperium is, not to put too fine a point on it, ****ed.

I agree that the Tau do not represent any real threat as things stand. They're a very minor player in the galactic struggle.

I don't know enough about Eldar to comment.

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My own feelings are that the Imperium is a great beast slowly bleeding to death from a thousand small wounds.

[Etra]

Etra, your theory on Chaos supposes that there a finite number of CSM; that they consist of only those that 'fell' during the Heresy. This is not true. The fluff mentions SM 'turning' to the Ruinous Powers; sometimes only individuals, sometimes whole squads. In the case of the Astral Claws, an entire (oversize) chapter. In a universe where no-one really knows how many SM chapters there are or have been, no-one knows how many of them have 'fallen', either. You also assume that CSM have no way of recruiting. This may well be an erroneous assumption. The fluff mentions Red Corsairs recruiting and you don't know what happens to the geneseed of fallen CSM. What happens in the Eye of Terror, stays in the Eye of Terror, so to speak.

This is the only one of your points I want to comment on.

No doubt - Chaos has within it Space Marines beyond the original traitor Legions. I have in my hand the current edition codex for CSM, and I am reading examples of this as I type this post.

At the same time, I can't help but also read about characters such as Kharn the Betrayer, who in an adjacent article is depicted as a blood-crazy warrior who kills five of his "Brother-Slaughterer's" because - one corpse in the name of Khorne is as good as any other. There are tons of examples making the explicit point that while Chaos is still deadly, they are far from what they once were.

Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters, led his Legion of 50,000 Space Marines in a rampage lasting two hundred years across 70 sectors in an event called the Dominion of Fire. This was in M38 - Angron had far more than 50,000 Space Marines before throwing in with Horus. And Angron did not finish the Dominion of Fire with 50,000 Space Marines - no doubt he took casualties.
And keeping with Kharn and the World Eaters is the event at Skalathrax, where indecision amongst the World Eaters while fighting a campaign of genocide against the Emperor's Children fragmented the Legion forever - since Skalathrax, there has been no World Eaters Legion - just the Khorne Berserker. Their numbers are only diminishing. With a breakdown in organization, more things are going to slip through the cracks - this means gene-seeds are forgotten and left on the battlefield.
The Thousand Sons started weak and only got weaker. True, Magnus was the first Primarch and was with the Emperor since Terra, but mutation among his Legion led to it's near destruction even during the Grand Crusade. And then the Space Wolves wiped out their homeworld of Prospero and many Thousand Suns in the process. And then, after the fall to Chaos, again mutation among the Legion's psykers thinned their ranks until finally Ahriman came up with a solution - but this left the vast majority of surviving Thousand Suns as mere shells - their bodies are destroyed, only their armor remains. This means there is no gene-seed to salvage. By the time Ahriman enacted his final solution, the lore doesn't support Thousand Suns having more than maybe 5,000 members, maximum. And this was back in M31, and we can assume they've taken casualties in the ensuing 10,000 years.
The Emperor's Children and Night Lords are barely worth talking about in terms of sustaining the Chaos war-machine - they never had the numbers to be anything more than additions to a larger force. The Emperor's Children were born with a defect that dwindled their numbers to sub-Legion size, forcing them to accompany Horus's Luna Wolves in the early days of the Grand Crusade - and after losing themselves to Slaanesh, it's only been downhill. The Night Lords similarly lost their **** after Conrad was assassinated, pulling a World Eater and fragmenting into warbands and mercenaries. More disorganization, more dysfunction, more cracks.
Mortarion doomed his Death Guard with service to Nurgle. The Destroyer Plague is as likely to kill a Space Marine as it is to create a new Plague Marine - hardly an efficient means of recruitment. The lore says Typhus and Mortarion had a falling out and split - more likely Mortarion sent Typhus away to keep the Destroyer Plague from completely tearing the heart out of his Legion. It says right here that Typhus was the only survivor of his ship that had been infected with the plague - what happened to everyone else? Obliteration, that's what.
When you read about Huron Blackheart, it's in the context that he's completed another daring raid and his army of followers has grown. What the lore doesn't hide, but still fails to emphasize is that he isn't recruiting patriotic Imperials - rather he's picking up stray Chaos warbands. This is kind of cheating - because Chaos isn't growing, it's just falling into line behind a leader so it may be counted. Yea, Space Marines are betraying the Emperor in ones and twos, but that's hardly a flood, more like a trickle, and not enough to stop a string of bad luck from tearing Blackheart's 'empire' in half.
Lastly, I want to talk about Abaddon. You don't get his full picture until you've read about everyone else - he is only as strong because he has recruited everyone else. The Khorne Surgeons needed to make more Berserkers? Abaddon hired them. The Thousand Sun sorcerers? Abaddon bought them. The Night Lord Raptors? Abaddon. Abaddon did not go on a massive PR campaign to recruit from Imperium forge-worlds, swaying loyal Space Marines to his cause. Rather, Abaddon went to the bar every CSM was hanging out at and bought them with gold. Think less 'Alexander the Great of Macedon', and more 'Captain Jack Sparrow in Tortuga.'

Chaos is not growing. Chaos has never been growing. After Horus was defeated, loyalist Space Marines undertook "The Scouring" in which... I'll quote it in it's entirety:


City-by-city, world-by-world, the forces of the Emperor reclaimed the galaxy once again from the armies of darkness. The Space Marines loyal to the Emperor fought and fought and eventually hounded the Traitors into the 'Eye of Terror' - that strange area of space where warpspace and realspace are bound together. This bizarre region became the prison of the traitors - and their greatest stronghold. Guardian fleets patrolled its borders and nearby planets became garrison worlds ever ready to combat raiding forces from the 'Eye'.

Within the giant warpstorm, the traitor Primarchs and their Legions found sancutary amongst the nightmare demon worlds. They warred amongst themselves for dominance and territory, while factions split from the Legions to found other warbands and armies. Thus started the struggle that has lasted for ten thousand years and even now besets the Imperium.

The Imperium kicked Chaos's butt, corralling them in the Eye, and forces them to go up against crack troops if ever they want to take a peek.

No, Chaos is not growing. What happens in the Eye does indeed stay in the Eye - the problem is not much entered the Eye to begin with, and they've only been tearing each other down since they arrived.

This thread is about whether the Imperium is shrinking or growing. If the Imperium is shrinking, I hope I've made the case that it isn't Chaos that's causing it. They have their own problems to deal with first.

[Hive Mind]

Your post is riddled with assumptions, guesswork and flawed logic presented as fact, most notably the assumption that geneseed is a finite resource, that a new CSM can only be 'made' from the recovered geneseed of a dead CSM. This isn't true for SM, why should it be true for CSM?

Chaos also isn't just CSM. CSM are not the greatest threat to the Imperium from Chaos, cults and heretics are.

While the Imperium may call him the God-Emperor there is no escaping the fact that he is not and never was a god or that humanity's greatest hero has sat, immobile and rotting, since the Heresy. The Chaos gods on the other hand, actually are gods.

[Etra]

You're totally right that I'm using flawed logic, guesswork, and assumptions. Because Games Workshop has given to us an incomplete puzzle. It is incumbent upon us to use intuition, informed speculation, and reasoning to infer on knowledge that we don't have. For example, we don't know how many Space Marines there are in the Ultramarines, the most publicized Chapter. After the Tyranid invasion of their sector of space, you'd think the Chapter would be hollowed out, crippled. The Hive Fleet would have consumed the bodies of the fallen - meaning all those dead SM's are lost forever.

You're criticizing me for making rational leaps, but given the circumstances that Games Workshop plays with their cards very close to their chest, involving even basic details, am I really such a criminal? What else could I do - except interpret intentionally hazy language as best I can.

Yes, gene-seed is a finite resource. Where has it ever been written that brand new gene-seed is being created? Who's creating it? Why don't they assembly-line that goo and manufacture ten million more Space Marines?

Because they can't. Because that technology was lost, probably during the Siege of Terra. Horus probably bombed the Emperor's labs under the Himalayas. I don't know - the lore doesn't say what happened to the facilities that created the Primarchs - why couldn't the Mechanicum create more Primarchs? We don't know.

We don't know because the lore is full of holes. Fanfiction might provide a solution, but neither of us want to go there.

Writers make conspicuous mention that Apothecaries recover the gene-seed of their fallen brethren because once it's all gone, there won't be any more Space Marines. There are only two ways Chaos can replace their casualties: make new SM's out of recovered gene-seed, or Renegades. And every time Chaos loses a battle, they get smaller in the aggregate. And Chaos probably had already shrunk to half their size by the time the Scouring ended. And once inside the Eye, they only tore themselves down smaller.

Edit *** *** *** *** *** ***

I want to elaborate more on my reservations on the Mechanicum, basically that they're terrible at their jobs.
We read that many new Space Marines must wear the armor of their gene-seed donor because new Power Armor cannot be made, the technology was lost.
The same is in effect for weapons too; I think I read somewhere that the technology behind Plasma Guns was lost and no new Plasma Guns could be made - what they have is all that's left.
The technology behind Dreadnought and Terminator Armor was definitely lost - all we read about are ancient ghosts haunting these war-machines. What's the age of the youngest Dreadnought pilot - 700 years? In Dawn of War 2, a character is interned into a Dreadnought - I'm curious what happened to it's previous occupant.
When was the last time a new Titan was christened? You know - smash a champagne bottle against the hull in celebration that we've built a new one.

My point is, the Imperium is definitely showing it's age. But Chaos, being a dark shadow of the Imperium, will have it even worse off, given that they're dependent on the Imperium for manpower and weapons. If the Mechanicum can't figure out how to make new Space Marines, or new suits of Power Armor, or new Bolters, or new Land Raiders, or new Dreadnoughts, or new anything, then what're the odds going to be that Chaos will have new stuff?

And don't even bring up Chaos being real gods - that's trivia at this point. Because if they had the power to end it, they'd have done it already. Instead, they have Abaddon making them look like jackasses.

[St. Murphy]

I have to think with the necron doom and a revamped chaos codex on the horizon that things are going to get worse for the imperium in 6th edition. But I love the little bits of messiah fluff that creeps in there with the primarchs. Alluding to Robute Guilliman slowly regenerating in his stasis field. Salamanders questing for Vulcan's artifacts and whereabouts. A "reincarnation" of Sanguinious. A primarch held by the 'crons. I'd love to see the darkness within inches of taking humanity only to have the emporer's sons rise in humanity's hour of need. Perhaps the emporer's light finally fails, but a new star illuminates the dark.

[St. Murphy]

I'm pretty certain in Graham McNeil's novels about the Iron Warriors it was stated that there were two locations that the mechanicum still produced gene seed, one of them is captured by the the iron warriors in Storm of Iron. So that means that, while limited, gene seed is still produced and that at least one chaos legion got a boost.

[JBRocky]

Yes I belive the Imperium is retreating but isn't how alot of the factions are? I know some are expanding like ORcs and Tau but others like the Eldar talk how they are a dying race.

[tdogp]

That depends on the edition. I think third ed had much more despair in it than 5th does. 3rd=C'tan (or evil of your choice) will kill man. 5th= Necrons team up with man because they are just so cool

[Grenadier]

The Imperium has highs and lows. But despite all the xenos preying upon it the Imperium is its own worst enemy. Annihilating entire populations and casting billions of lives into wars which often achieve very little.

But if we boil it down to its bare essence we'll dispense with "The Imperium" and instead we'll stick to humanity. Millions of colonized worlds are out there. And of course many more which have not been "re-discovered." The Imperium really doesn't know how big it really is. They have no clue as to how many citizens there are and how many worlds they control. They lose some worlds here. Gain some more there. There could even be Imperial worlds so far flung they've never experienced any warfare from an external threat.

But going back to humanity I think its safe to say humans will always populate the 40k universe. They may some day lose the government known as The Imperium. But they'll always be there. In particular those who have allied with the Tau may well survive when the Imperium vanishes.

But then again there's still ongoing conquest and reclamation of worlds. The Black Templars, for example, have been pushing the boundaries of the Imperium further and further for 10,000 years. They are the largest of the Chapters, probably the size of 3 or 4 chapters. They probably account for more worlds being claimed for the Emperor than any other chapter. And many of their crusades are so far apart they pretty much operate independently.

And then there are the exploration fleets, other chapters, and more. Humanity will always "grow" in the 40k universe even if the Imperium itself ceases to exist as a government.

[Sindamar]

In my opinion, the Imperium may fall, but if it does, I doubt it'll be down to Chaos. It seems fairly clear that the Chaos Gods engineered the Heresy to get to the current state of affairs. Ten thousand years of pain, misery, and bloodshed being what sustains them, rather than a quick feast followed by famine. Look at the second Heresy book and Horus's vision of the future. Seeing the results of his actions leads to him taking the actions that lead to that result. And then theres the Emperor. He's not a God, just an incredibly powerful psyker strapped into a throne that keeps him alive. But as the warp contains the essence of living beings "souls" consider this, how many loyal God-Emperor worshippers have died over 10,000 years? As they tend to coalesce in the warp, the likelyhood is that they would do so around the Astronomicon & the Emperor... So what would happen if he did die? He might not be a God now, but at the moment he passed over into the warp I wouldn't want to be one of the Chaos Gods...
The Tyranids may eat humanity. The Necrons may destroy them. The Orks may unite and slaughter them. But Chaos probably won't, because its not in the Chaos God's best interests...
Afterall, who lowered Horus's shields on the brink of victory? :)

[daKrovar]

I would agree with Grenadier's overall assesment, the Imperium is so large that I doubt if even the High Lords themselves really know how many worlds make up the Imperium. With the total control that only a dictatorship can hold over a body of worlds, I don't think the Imperium is shrinking. With the resources that can be thrown into any conflict the only thing that concerns me is the whole world war one mentality that has seized so many within the various arms of Imperial military. But with the fluff as it is written, anyone trying to change this viewpoint is only likely to gain the attention of the Inquistion.

[Primarch Scooter]

The way the Imperium is looking to me is that it is on a slow decline. With the Tau expanding, necrons rising, and orks mukin about, along with other xeno scum, it just seems to me that the Imperium of glorious mankind is slowly crumbling without some kind of change.

[MaltonNecromancer]

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war"

It can't end. For an in-game reason why, read "1984" (long story short, as a fundamentally totalitarian regime, the Imperium needs a war to keep the population controlled. If they "won", they'd simply manufacture a new threat.)

For an out of game reason why the Imperium can't end? Because GW sells more Imperial miniatures than Xenos.

[Ziac45]

I think the Imperium is kinda holding steady currently. I believe they ahve the forces, and the strength to make a push back and it is nowhere near as desperate as it seems. The Highlords and huge beauracratic burden is preventing them from making any real advances, outside of the black templars.

[rakshasa]

Just wanted to point out that new gene-seed is being constantly manufactured.
There was a piece of fuff on how gene-seed was grown in humans held in vats. These humans were used for this and only this.
It took about 50 years or so to create a new set of gene-seed ready to be implemented in a recruit to turn him into a space marine.
As far as I know this is the gene-seed from which the subsequent foundings after the first were made of. They (magos biologis?) even expermimented on the new gene-seed (which is still based on the original legios, but most likely it's ultramarines) to try and improve or eliminate cetain flaws like in the 21'st founding. Remember the Sons of Anteus, stroger then normal marines, the Flaming Falcons which were some kind of psykers and this is what got them wiped out by Grey Knights, Lamenters, Fire hawks resulting into Legion of the damned and others.

[Anggul]

Well the idea is that The Imperium are meant to be in a never-ending struggle to hold back the many aliens and enemies which assail them. The problem is, almost all of the fluff has them being super-awesome-amazing and winning all of the time, so it's kind of hard to see why they even say it.

[Kawauso]

Well the idea is that The Imperium are meant to be in a never-ending struggle to hold back the many aliens and enemies which assail them. The problem is, almost all of the fluff has them being super-awesome-amazing and winning all of the time, so it's kind of hard to see why they even say it.

They have their fair share of heavy losses, though. And more than a few Pyrrhic victories. And you factor in that some forces (like the Tyranids and Necrons) haven't brought anywhere near their full strength to bear and others (Tau) are steadily growing stronger and the Imperium's in for a rough ride.

[incenerate101]

No matter what happens the Tyranids win. It says it in many books and fluff that the Tyranids will eventually over run humanity and all other life forms in the galaxy. It has even said that the hive fleets that the imperium have encountered so far are strike forces, meaning the full invasion has yet to arrive.

[Anggul]

They have their fair share of heavy losses, though. And more than a few Pyrrhic victories. And you factor in that some forces (like the Tyranids and Necrons) haven't brought anywhere near their full strength to bear and others (Tau) are steadily growing stronger and the Imperium's in for a rough ride.

That's just it though, none of that will ever come to fruition. Also, their Pyrrhic victories have next to no repercussions whatsoever. The Ultramarines 1st company was entirely wiped out. This had absolutely no effect upon them to tell of and as far as we're aware they're back up to full strength without much difficulty. The Imperium's difficulties are hardly ever expanded upon, and as they have seemingly unlimited numbers of tanks and guardsmen anyway, they never seem to lose anything of any real note.