Multi-Laser in HW Squads.

[Renegade]

Can anyone think of a good reason (other than its not in the Codex) that the Heavy Bolter option could not be replaced by a Multi-Laser?

Imho, there is not much between them... the Heavy Bolter has a lot better AP while the ML has better Str, by the same proportion.

I was thinking of trying this out in my IG, but looking for C&C.

[Rissan4ever]

I think it could work. I never understood why the multilaser wasn't available outside of vehicles in the first place. It seems like a weapon that would fit the Imperial Guard very well, since they have such a love of lasers. As for points, if an autocannon can be the same points as a heavy bolter, I don't see why a multilaser shouldn't be the same points as well.

Assuming your opponents let you try this option, let us know how effective it is in-game.

[Lord Azaghul]

Can anyone think of a good reason (other than its not in the Codex) that the Heavy Bolter option could not be replaced by a Multi-Laser?

Imho, there is not much between them... the Heavy Bolter has a lot better AP while the ML has better Str, by the same proportion.

I was thinking of trying this out in my IG, but looking for C&C.

First off, if this was an option I would have done this ages ago. :P

The main problem is the single d6 mechanics of 40k.

Currantly - armour is pretty much worthless, its all about high rate of fire and strength.

Wounding T4 on a 2+ rather then a 3+ is a HUGE difference. Especially if a unit COULD put out 9 S6 shots! Remember there is a reason no-one takes heavy bolters - having heavy multi-lasers would make HB even more pointless.

To be an effective in game weapon, it must do one of two things, either have a high rate of fire or great odds of wounding, heavy bolters do neither. A heavy flamer effectively has a high rate of fire (auto hit), a multilaser's strength isn't its rate of fire (although 3 shots is nice), but its odds of wounding something.

For me its either mortars or autocannons!

[Renegade]

Azagul> Thats fine looking at MEQs, but for GEQs saves are more important. Take for example Nids, Orks, IG and both flavours of Eldar. For them, the HB is ignoring armour saves and in most cases both are wounding on the same score.

That would be something to consider though, some marine players may not like it.

[Lord Azaghul]

Azagul> Thats fine looking at MEQs, but for GEQs saves are more important. Take for example Nids, Orks, IG and both flavours of Eldar. For them, the HB is ignoring armour saves and in most cases both are wounding on the same score.

That would be something to consider though, some marine players may not like it.

S5 can glance REAR S6 can pen it. S5 vs S6 in a 6d system is a very large difference
S6 is instant death for eldar, and wounds orks on a 2+

GEQ are taking cover, so Armour is not important, and DE have FNP, so S6 vs S5 IS important.

That being said I would be all for hw multilaser teams, but they's have to cost the same or more as autocannons, NOT heavy bolters.

I do think a couple of the forgeworld army list do included multilaser teams, you might want to look into that as a point bases.

[AbusePuppy]

None of the armies you mention really use their armor saves, they rely on cover saves to stay alive. Trading one AP for one Strength is an amazing deal that most guns would want every time. (Autocannons with S8 and AP5? Sure, I'll take a dozen! S10 AP3 Lascannons? Sign me up! S5 AP6 Boltguns? Hells yes!)

The Multilaser is functionally similar to the Heavy Bolter, but almost always superior. (It's generally worse than the Autocannon because of Range, AP, and Str.) However, in HWT the Heavy Bolter is overcosted (it should be a free swap from the Mortar, not 5pts), so as an opponent I wouldn't mind allowing you to take them in the general sense.

Fluffwise Multilasers are vehicle-mounted weapons because of their high power requirements, so it's doubtful you're going to see them on infantry units. It's much more likely they'll just fix the stats/cost on Heavy Bolters instead.

[Renegade]

S5 can glance REAR S6 can pen it. S5 vs S6 in a 6d system is a very large difference
S6 is instant death for eldar, and wounds orks on a 2+

GEQ are taking cover, so Armour is not important, and DE have FNP, so S6 vs S5 IS important.

That being said I would be all for hw multilaser teams, but they's have to cost the same or more as autocannons, NOT heavy bolters.

I do think a couple of the forgeworld army list do included multilaser teams, you might want to look into that as a point bases.

You only get FNP if you get an armour save, HB is not giving DE an armour save, Multi-L is even if its not giving FNP.

Autocannon points are fine, they are the same as HB for a Heavy weapon squad in the C:IG, and that was the only place I was looking to use them, so that at least is pretty much sorted.

The HB is probably more versatile....

[Renegade]

None of the armies you mention really use their armor saves, they rely on cover saves to stay alive. Trading one AP for one Strength is an amazing deal that most guns would want every time. (Autocannons with S8 and AP5? Sure, I'll take a dozen! S10 AP3 Lascannons? Sign me up! S5 AP6 Boltguns? Hells yes!)

The Multilaser is functionally similar to the Heavy Bolter, but almost always superior. (It's generally worse than the Autocannon because of Range, AP, and Str.) However, in HWT the Heavy Bolter is overcosted (it should be a free swap from the Mortar, not 5pts), so as an opponent I wouldn't mind allowing you to take them in the general sense.

Fluffwise Multilasers are vehicle-mounted weapons because of their high power requirements, so it's doubtful you're going to see them on infantry units. It's much more likely they'll just fix the stats/cost on Heavy Bolters instead.

Fluff wise, if they can find a way to power up a lascannon, then the Multi-laser should be no more difficult.

[Lord Azaghul]

You only get FNP if you get an armour save, HB is not giving DE an armour save, Multi-L is even if its not giving FNP.

Autocannon points are fine, they are the same as HB for a Heavy weapon squad in the C:IG, and that was the only place I was looking to use them, so that at least is pretty much sorted.

The HB is probably more versatile....

Forgot the price of HB/AC (S6 3 shot weapon should still cost more then a HB) :P

Points remains, S6 is WAY better then S5 all the way around.

Wrong on FNP.

This is common mistake. I don't have my book on me atm. BUT FNP may not be used IF the wound was caused by an AP1 or 2 Weapon, causes instant death or if the wound 'does not allow a save of any kind', or something to that effect

That last part is the section people seem to mess up, its not talking about a model with amour 4 taking an ap4 shot. That model still gets FNP, its talking about wound such as dangerous terrain, or wounds that 'removed the model from play' or the 'doom of malanti' type of damage.

[Renegade]

Forgot the price of HB/AC (S6 3 shot weapon should still cost more then a HB) :P

Points remains, S6 is WAY better then S5 all the way around.

Wrong on FNP.

This is common mistake. I don't have my book on me atm. BUT FNP may not be used IF the wound was caused by an AP1 or 2 Weapon, causes instant death or if the wound 'does not allow a save of any kind', or something to that effect

That last part is the section people seem to mess up, its not talking about a model with amour 4 taking an ap4 shot. That model still gets FNP, its talking about wound such as dangerous terrain, or wounds that 'removed the model from play' or the 'doom of malanti' type of damage.

And AP4 is better than AP6 any day of the week... and a 4+ is far easier to pass than a 5+. HB will kill horde armies more reliably than Multi-L... Even SM Scouts are able to take M-L Shots and make saves... HB will kill more of them.

[Lord Azaghul]

You're still not getting around how S6 is far better then S5. Armour is worthless in this edition.

There is a very good reason IG players take AC over HB for the same points.

If you want to model counts as: go right again.

But just try and use mutlilaser heavy weapon teams in a tourney and see what happens!

Its not the same, not even close to being equal. We know it, you know it, in fact in AP4 HB are so awesome why do you want something 'inferior' like S6 Ap6 gun? ;)

[Renegade]

You're still not getting around how S6 is far better then S5. Armour is worthless in this edition.

There is a very good reason IG players take AC over HB for the same points.

If you want to model counts as: go right again.

But just try and use mutlilaser heavy weapon teams in a tourney and see what happens!

Its not the same, not even close to being equal. We know it, you know it, in fact in AP4 HB are so awesome why do you want something 'inferior' like S6 Ap6 gun? ;)

Cause I already have a load of them due to the number of vehicles I have. I thought that the M-L would be a good way to break that up a bit in HWS's.

As my IG army uses mainly FW rule sets (autocannons on Chimera, Malcadors etc) it is unlikely to get in to any tournament other than a painting one.

[heretic marine]

You're still not getting around how S6 is far better then S5. Armour is worthless in this edition.

There is a very good reason IG players take AC over HB for the same points.

If you want to model counts as: go right again.

But just try and use mutlilaser heavy weapon teams in a tourney and see what happens!

Its not the same, not even close to being equal. We know it, you know it, in fact in AP4 HB are so awesome why do you want something 'inferior' like S6 Ap6 gun? ;)

i would see this as a for fun thing rarely to be used in a tourney and with the opponents permission. so unless your going to play against him stop crying and let others have their fun. i have used multi-laser heavy weapon teams my opponent was fine with it and the 5pts cost. he was a nid army

[Renegade]

i would see this as a for fun thing rarely to be used in a tourney and with the opponents permission. so unless your going to play against him stop crying and let others have their fun. i have used multi-laser heavy weapon teams my opponent was fine with it and the 5pts cost. he was a nid army

How did the game go.... did it seem any more effective, and what comments were made afterwards.