Are SoB's that bad or are people just being sobs?

[dvs1]

So I've been looking at the 'new' SoB codex and i must say, it is a definite improvement from the old IMHO. I know ima get flamed for this but its pretty plain after a decent look through, there is a very 'competitive' army under all the fuss. Don't get me wrong, it would have been nice to get a real book with the whole shebang, but GW did a good job streamlining the faith system and reworking a 'new' army by fixing some old unit entries and costs.

New faith system good, you say?...Yes. It is now much easier to understand and use compared to the old rolling +/- unit strength. Now nearly any squad can be optimized to successfully cast their act of faith, if your willing to pay the points for the goodies ( similacrum imperialis, priest,etc) Most of the new acts of faith are surprisingly powerful. Rending retributors? Hell yes please! Be it mech'd up in an immolator with RENDING HFs or on the cheap with RENDING HBs, theses guys will find uses...assuming you can tear yourself away from the exorcists and the awesomeness that is penitent engines. With the canoness, you can play match up a little bit with her/her squads acts of faith to make some interesting combos. No longer do you just pile all the armies worth of faith into 1-2 combats, usually involving seraphim. Now it really is more of a army wide thing, so sad.=( You never need more than a few acts of faith a turn anyway, so the d6 faith a turn helps as its an 'infinite' supply of faith. If you're that worried about rolling 1's, just take uriah as he's a steal for what you get.

Exorcists were pretty good to begin with, so not nerfing them is almost as good as not leveling them up. Penitent engines look hella scarier now with up to 8 attacks each on the charge, coupled with unstoppable rampage. I'm guessing we'll be seeing plenty more of them now on. Even Repentia, with increased attacks and spirit of the martyr seem almost.. useful. Battle conclaves seem fun. What happens when you run a 9 man cult assassin unit lead by uriah, in a rhino? Dead marines happen =). Hell, just about dead anything happens.

Maybe basic sisters should've costed less, maybe not. In today's environment you are still getting 'about' your moneys worth with AoF, SoF, etc. Think of the increase the balance to the adjustments to seraphim, celestine, and HB retributors etc... You're still getting the arguably 'best' things about a marine (power armour, bolter, bs4 ) at less. Were you really gonna charge marines with nuns, expecting them to win?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that this new 'codex' is not as bad as the interwebs make it out to be. My prediction is we're gonna see some really powerful lists coming out of this, and be crying cheese and OP in about a month. Keep in mind I do not consider this a 'new' 'dex, just a massive update to get them in line with 5th. Apologies extended if you owned an army of Arbites.... much like a gangrene amputation, this had to be done eventually.

[Lockark]

My friend who plays Sisters has the honest opinion that the new dex is pretty well at the same power level as the old one. It basically dose allot of the same things, but in new ways.

IMHO if more people were not complaining about it on message boards, and at their LGS's playing it? Well. We would start seeing alot of realy rock solid lists coming out of it.

But like you, expressing such a opinion here just gets you labeled a troll. IMHO it's best to not discuss tactics on message boards. Everyone is a "expert" and few of these "experts" even play the game regularly or even at LGS's were they fight a large variety of opponents.

You get the few guys who know what thier talking about but they seem few and far between. I always urge people to talk to their own local players over getting advice from the internet. They know the meta of the LGS, and uesly get games under their belt alot more regular then most fourm goers.

(On some forums I see guys who admit to not playing in over a year or two give tactical advice! Worse yet I also see many people who fall into the trap of not being able to recognize that the meta at your store is not the same as someone eals's store.)

[AbusePuppy]

The new faith system is simpler- which is a much-needed improvement- but does not scale at all with level and is completely random. Your 200pt Kill Team and 10,000pt Apocalypse force both get 1d6 faith per turn.

Most of the units, numbers-wise, are more or less okayish, but are pretty much in no way special, unique, or interesting. Basic SoBs are their ONLY troop choice and got notably worse compared to the last book- and not only worse but are quite mediocre when compared to existing troop choices, like Tactical Marines.

The lack of anything particularly unique in the codex is especially damning- essentially, there is no longer any reason to play the army, because they're just Girl Space Marines now. Ten-strong squads with two special weapons? Check. Rhino and (extremely bad) Razorback? Check. Elite-slot unit that can take more special weapons than usual? Check. Almost everything they had can be translated, one-for-one across to an existing Marine unit, except that they have worse stats and very few actual advantages.

Cruddance, almost certainly intentionally, took away the only useful things that the previous codex could do, made them extremely bad (just as he did with Carnifexes in the Tyranid codex) and gave SoB virtually nothing in return.

Most of the time, the internet is just big whiny babbies about things. However, in this instance they are actually correct- the new SoB codex is every bit as awful as the previous White Dwarf codices have been, and for no good reason.

As counterpoints to some of the things you mentioned:
-Basic SoBs are T3, which is a major disadvantage, and lack ATSKNF, also a critical weakness. It is these two things, not the reduced WS, S, I, etc, that make them worthless.

-Penitent Engines are still fairly expensive and extremely fragile and uncontrollable. They were dangerous in a fight before and are even more so now, but they'll never get there because they're AV11 Open-Topped units with Rage.

-Repentia are actually good now. 6++/FNP and their act of faith mean they stand pretty good chances of doing some damage to something if you can steal them a ride. DCA are better, though.

-Taking away Stormtroopers was unnecessary and pointless. Not only were they a natural for a second troop choice (seriously, they only have ONE troop choice now- that is all kinds of B.S.), it arbitrarily invalidates a large number of models people owned, since unlike GK there is absolutely nothing IST can be used for in the new codex. (GK, at least, have Henchmen squads.)

Sisters did desperately need an update, but they would've been better off without this. It's clearly a minimum-effort work from Cruddance who just rolled dice, got a few numbers, and then phoned it in to HQ.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Its not that we SoB players are being sobs, have you actually compared the 3rd ed codex to the WD codex?
If you had, you would see so much has changed, some for the better, most to the worse.

EG:
Dominion squads now have to be taken in size of 10 to get 4 special weapons, unlike before you could take 6 SoB and fit them in a Immotor.
Celestians still lack power weapons, compared to every new codex having access to them.
Immolators losing the ability to move 12" and still use its Heavy Flamer, it's now just a Razorback.
Wargear, so much important wargear has been removed, imagine cutting say half the SM wargear section out of there codex, and tell me how SM players feel.
Faith, you say it was confussing?? How, it was simple to use, for us anyway. And we had more of it, now regardless of army size we only get 1d6 now, spread that around say a 2,000 or 3,000 point army with say rolling a 3. Thats right imagine only having the chance to use Faith 3 times over the choice of 12+ or more units. How is that fair?

Only having one, yes one Troop choice, or only three SC's, or lack of anything stronger than Str 8 weapons. The excorsist still needs to roll 3 to hit, needs a 6 to Glance AV 14, and then needs to roll a 6 to get a wreck result.
There are good things i like, the Special Characters are better, but still need more to compare to other codexs. EG: GK=8, IG=11, BA=8, DE=8. SoB=3.
See what i mean.
Now i will play with the codex, but dont dismiss SoB as sobs because we can see and are not happy at all with getting a crummy WD codex over all other armies getting a codex, new plastic miniatures, new characters, new wargear, and lots of interesting new units.

[dvs1]

Apologies to any one offended by the title, really I just used it to get some responses.

I should've been more clear about my view of the WD SoB thingy. I see it more like an 5th ed update rather than a full blown new codex. Just like the BA before it, it doesn't offer new stuff, just takes some stuff away and added some tweaks to the rules here and there for clarity.

Old faith not confusing? Either had to roll above or below the units model count, meaning much of who could use what was very situational. What could be divined guidanced, would be hard to spirit of the matyr and so on. Now its a 5+ roll, with modifiers aplenty to help you out. Also, before you only had a set number of faith points equal to the amount of faithful units/ characters that had to last you ALL game. Now you get to to use acts every turn. You just can't pile them all down in one turn like before. However, you are correct in how it doesn't scales up to larger games fairly. Hopefully there will be a faq out soon to fix that since GW is getting better about those.

Losing all that wargear was to be expected. EVERY codex lost a ton of stuff transitioning from 3rd- 5th edition, except for maybe DE. Losing stormtroopers i concede was a loss. They should have at least given SoBs their frateris militia back ( even though they suck).

[eldargal]

At a competitive level I'm not sure much will really change, they had one or two vaiable builds before they will have one or two viable builds now. The worst thing about this codex for me is that it has stripped away, orn erfed) nearly everything that made the SoB unique. The Sarissa, blessed ammunition, most of their wargear in fact, Acts of Faith are near useless though the system itself isn't bad (apart from the scaling issue).

[dvs1]

People actually took things like the sarissa? Just kidding :D, it was a cool concept. I know they took a bunch away, but i see so many new combos in there to exploit. Oddly enough, i just purchased a decent sized SoB lot from ebay just cause it was super cheap and was gonna part it out and sell it, but now i'm gonna have to throw down with them to test my convictions. Space Nuns it is!

[eldargal]

No one ever took a sarissa.:p But a lot of people seemed to conver them and there was some nice art with them having sarissas attached.Their removal wasn't a big thing in terms of playing them, but it was stripping away a little part of what made them different.

[the jeske]

Just like the BA before it, it doesn't offer new stuff, just takes some stuff away and added some tweaks to the rules here and there for clarity.
wait wait wait wait wait... BAs went from spam minimax las/plas get max number of DC with powerfists/power weapons with 2 chappies or a libby/chappy to RAS being troops , FnP bubble , mefiston being mefiston , actualy good MM attack bikes . how was that not changing how the army works ? BAs pre WD dex never used RAS , never used specials or attack bikes . Even the DC that was run in both the 3ed and the WD dex worked in a different way .

[faolan]

It's not as bad as it could be. But Abusepuppy is wrong, it's not a Cruddance style muckup, it's a Jervis Golden Shower.

[Vindur]

the jeske,dvs is talking about the previous BA WD codex as opposed to the new shiny book one

[jonsgot]

I'm trying to hold back untill i've actually played a game with the new army list, but it's hard. I can't see why the codex has been put to print. Other than to sell the models they don't stock any more. The BA dex was a different situation. There was no need for this update. I've lost 400pts out of my army because of the units they have removed. Units that were in the 1st sisters of battle codex. On the verge of having my sisters at 1500 pts i'm back to 1000 with only 2 unit of troops in my army. This is the sort of army destroying thing mr johnston promised they would no longer do. It been a while since g.w. Have got my back up other than the above inflation price rises. why they can't just stick 2-3% on every thing once a year is beyond my understanding, but back to the topic. I really don't see how mr crud's work has helped us. I can live with the loss of assasins inquisitors n all that but 1 troop choice at £40 a go! That's £90 for the minimum force and you still can't play a 500point game. I know the storm troopers where only there because there was no plastic infantry for the army, so why take them out now? Where are the plastics. Still waiting for someone to sign off the capital expenditor? Who in there right mind will start a sisters army now? Expensive, toughness 3, max strengh 8 army anyone? I've got one, I just can't remember deciding to buy it :/

[Ghoulio]

It is interesting to see that people are almost surprised that the book is a bland, stripped down version of the previous codex. It is EXACTLY what he did to the last Codex he wrote. It also felt like a bland, stripped down version of the previous one with changes made for no reason and not really that much more competitive then the one before it. He also completely ignoring the issues that actually needed to be fixed. The old Nid codex's problem was Nidzilla and the new one is no different.

Shame that the sisters got the shaft the way they did as there looked like there was so much room to actually flush the army out and streamline their special rules to make them something you will actually see on the battle field. With their boring WD codex, no new units/models and the fact that a regular Sister squad (troops) will cost about $100 Canadain (BEFORE the Rhino) there just seems like there is 100% no reason to collect this army. I have said it before and I will say it again, if I see that Cruddace is the author of any of the armies I play (Tyranids -which are now living in storage -, Eldar, Dark Eldar and Orks) in the future, I am selling the army the moment I find out he is writing it.

[Melissia]

The new faith system is simplerNitpicking here... but no... actually... it's not. It's actually MORE complex than the previous system with more stupid crap you need to memorize and more stupid crap that can modify and change and re-roll the results of EVERY SINGLE ASPECT.

[memnarch_129]

Nitpicking here... but no... actually... it's not. It's actually MORE complex than the previous system with more stupid crap you need to memorize and more stupid crap that can modify and change and re-roll the results of EVERY SINGLE ASPECT.

Melissia is very right, the old system was much easier than this one. In the old one when you took a Simalicrum Imperialis you rolled 3D6 and took the 2 you wanted which made the over/under nature of AoF very mute. The new system is much more random and relies to heavily on good dice to scale well. First you have to roll a D6 for your Faith points, then you have to roll a D6 to get the AoF to go off, and last if your within 12" of a Laud Hailer (if I remember right) you roll a D6 and if you roll a 6 you get to keep the Faith point. Thats 3D6 for the first squad, and if you have multiple squads within the Laud Hailer then thats an additional 2D6 for each squad.

What should of been done was to leave the way you get Faith points the same (one per Faithful squad and x number for IC/SC). Second they should of left the AoF as a collective pool with all Faithful able to use all AoF. The easiest way to streamline the Faith system would of been to just make them give USRs, Divine Guidance = Rending etc..

[faolan]

IT's more complex if you played a lot of SOB before and had the old way memorised.

If you weren't a hardcore SOB player (I wasn't), it's easier.

So, to nitpick, it's all about your starting perspective.

[Necron2.0]

IT's more complex if you played a lot of SOB before and had the old way memorised.

If you weren't a hardcore SOB player (I wasn't), it's easier.

Not really. All the Acts of Faith previously took up half a page and were universal (they all applied to every faithful unit). Now, every unit has their own unique act of faith.

++++

Anyway, just looked through the second half of the rules, and IF I go ahead and make a Sisters army, they'll be count-as-space-marines (maybe Black Templars, or else Blood Angels ... Space Wolves at the outside).

I'm also seeing why people don't like Cruddace ... clearly he's a moron.

[dvs1]

I still don't buy the old faith system being easier. Before, units could generally rely on one set of faith skills being either (+/-) a certain size.. Now its a automatic 4+ since every squad comes stock with a superior. 75% if you use similacrum imperialis like the older dex. Not even talking about priests or unit casualties yet. Something tells me the math for the new way would allow better consistency of faith then the old. Just everyone can no longer use every different act. Splitting the acts up between units kinda worked out as most units got to keep the one most useful to them, with a couple other fun ones thrown in for fun in the bargain!

[DarkLink]

I wish you could just take an army of Seraphim...

[JMichael]

Played with the new WD codex last night vs CSM's and really enjoyed the new 'dex.
When I first read the WD I had some reservations, but the more I read and re-read to let it all soak in the more I began to understand the new Sisters.
Many of our old tricks just won't work anymore. But there are plenty of new ones! My biggest complaint is the Immolator not being able to move 12" and shoot.
But...Dominions are now Scouts! So 2 melta guns +1 Melta-Combi in an outflanking Immolator works for me! Add in the 12" scout move and you are right up against the Land Raider.

Or how about 4 Retributors with rending Heavy Flamers and either a Rhino or Immolator.

Also Sisters Repentia can now go in a transport (although they cannot buy a dedicated transport). 2 base Attacks plus their Faith ability combined with a priest and/or Canoness is just brutal! Took down a squad with 12CSMs and wounded the Chaos Lord.

Sororitas Command Squad - Faith gives them relentless. Hello 3 Multi-Meltas in a Rhino moving and shooting. Or Move 12", disembark 2". That means you have 26" where you can get into 2d6 Melta range!
Or perhaps 3 Heavy Bolters that can move and shoot. Make them suicide melta, support hvy bolter, or just a nice support squad. Your choice.

While I probably won't ever take the Seraphim Inferno Pistol, the had flamers are great! So what if their S3! With 2 shots and their Faith allowing you to re-roll wounds...muhahahaha

Seems like you can kit your amy out to be close up and burn 'em or stand back and shoot 'em.

I still don't understand 20pts for a heavy flamer...but oh, well.

I've been playing Sisters since they first came out in 2nd edition. I really like the new codex, though it lacks some flavor and different unit types that I hope the full 'dex will include but in the meantime I think they will provide a semi-competitive list with many build types to keep me occupied. And my opponents guessing.

[DarkLink]

So, sounds like most of the problems are either unit specific or troop specific, with plenty of decent stuff in the other areas of the codex? I think I can live with that, even if I'm not really excited about it.

Take a command squad for mobile multi meltas, a couple Dominion squads and some Seraphim, Exorcists and maybe a unit of Repentia, DCA for an assault unit and spend the rest of the points on Sisters. Sounds pretty fun to play.





I really hope GW puts the pdf online, too, since I'm not ordering WD online.

[Bedroom General]

Oh I am sad, I have been playing against my friends frankly brilliantly painted SOB's for years, it was a true work of art! I told him about the new "Codex".
He works night shift, and hasn't bought a WD for years, but he's had a look and he is an angry man.
Why?
They took away a chunk of his army, it just disappeared!
He just recently bought Karamazov for the ladies. In his first battle he took down a Daemon Prince and a dreadie. No more!
Never more will his exquisitely painted Inquisitors and storm troopers grace the field. He is retiring the army as a large chunk of his force is no longer viable.
He HAD an extremely well thought out 2000 pt army, immaculately painted, not cheesy but competitive. He relied on his skill to win battles. It was so much fun to play against such a wonderful army.
This is not a whinge about the new 'dex's playability. Its about the enforced retirement of some of the best painted mini's it has been my privilege to see and play against.
And before anyone says "just buy other SOB stuff to replace the now useless elements of the army" well he won't. Mortgage and limited time to play (did I mention night shift) plus the ridiculous prices of any GW stuff sees to that.
I told him that he could still use the old 'dex as far as I was concerned, but he's been trying to enter tourneys on his rare holidays and off weekends, so......yeah.
He's got sensationally painted IG and Blood Angels, but his "pet" army is no longer viable.
My table top experiences have just got poorer.
My mate will probably get more into World of Tanks, 'cos he's brilliant at it.
The massive expense of GW models will become a thing of the past. Plastic (Ha Metal!!) toy soldiers will not seem as important (lol) as they once were to him. The time consumed by painting to such a high standard will seem a waste, and that, my friends, is a crime. I'm an Art teacher, so I think I know rare quality when I see it.
Look I'm not a SoB player, but I'm sad and a little heartbroken as an opponent.
GW killed my friend's puppy!
Shame on them.

[JMichael]

Well vs you and anyone else that will allow, he can certainly still use the old codex.
I have an Inq Land Raider (using Forgeworld parts) that I now am going to sell. Glad I didn't buy the FW stormtroopers!

[the jeske]

...and you are right up against the Land Raider.
...
Took down a squad with 12CSMs and wounded the Chaos Lord.

now that must have been one hell of a chaos list . How about you try playing sob against the basic 2DP zerker/pms mix oblit list and then judging if the list works or not.

[dvs1]

To be completely fair, i propose we play test the new updated 'dex against the old one. Kinda like a time warp mirror match. Then we can see which army performs better. I'm not saying the new SoB will beat down the likes of BA razorspam, Draigowing, or even deathwing. I'm saying it'll perform better than its pretentious, older sibling. Thats all...

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Ok, firstly Necron 2.0, what's the point of collecting SoB and then just play them as Blood Angels?? why bother, why don't you just play BA's?? Waste of time and sad to see you do that.

Secondly, played in a 3 game 1,000 point tournament today.
First battle: SoB vs Khorne SM's.
Result, win for me with annilation of every miniture he had. Only lost my Dominion squad.

Second Battle: SoB vs Eldar.
Result, win for me, but i lost most in this battle.

Third battle: SoB vs Space Wolves
Result, win for me, but got real scary.

Highlights for me was luck of the dice, watching my Cannoness get bladestormed for 28 hits, 15 wounds, and only failing 4. Still died in a fusillage of shuriken rounds. Taking out a Vindicator and a Rune priest in same round.

Bad things i noticed. Not rolling very well on Faith points was hard, spreading out limited Faith between 5 options.
Lack of wargear that is now gone, limiting so much my Characters,not having a Cannoness with a 2+/4+ save or being able to take a jump pack now.
Celestine was the real winner for me, taking out Space Wolves, wiping out a squad of Gaurdians, and wiping out Khorne squad too.
And even took a wound off the Avatar before he killed her.

Still dislike the codex, GW should have done better and just because i won, does'nt mean i change my opinion this is a lame excuse for a codex.

[Necron2.0]

Ok, firstly Necron 2.0, what's the point of collecting SoB and then just play them as Blood Angels?? why bother, why don't you just play BA's?? Waste of time and sad to see you do that.

Two interrelated factors: First, I have the SoB figures because I want to paint them. For me only about a quarter of this game is actually about playing it. Mostly I use game play as an excuse for painting/sculpting miniatures. I had worked up a concept for an army with a specific color scheme (>>See Here<< (http://necron2-0.deviantart.com/art/Adepta-Sororitas-Armor-Scheme-199034606)) more than a year ago, and I want to bring it to fruition.

Second, I'd worked up a concept for my army that cannot be built under the new codex. The concept for my army was one that closely mirrored that of the Black Templars. The concept relied heavily on what you got with the C:WH Celestians. The new codex completely gutted the Celestians. To realize the concept army I have in mind, the only way to do it is to build them as something else.

[dvs1]

@necron 2.0. May i ask how the 'new' celestians nerfed your army. I could almost understand if your army took on an inquisitorial perspective since they deleted most of those. but to me celestians are still very similar to their prior incarnation. Albeit 2 points more expensive, but almost all weapon options are the same except for stuff like the sister superiors' BoSL and the like. You just can't pile all the faith into that one unit to make it uber good anymore. Personally, i always thought of them as one of the weaker units available. Don't SoB now have the option for a celestian command squad? I think if you look closely you may find a bit more play room now that you can technically have up to 5 squads of celestians with varying acts of faith.

[Lockark]

So, sounds like most of the problems are either unit specific or troop specific, with plenty of decent stuff in the other areas of the codex? I think I can live with that, even if I'm not really excited about it.

Take a command squad for mobile multi meltas, a couple Dominion squads and some Seraphim, Exorcists and maybe a unit of Repentia, DCA for an assault unit and spend the rest of the points on Sisters. Sounds pretty fun to play.

I really hope GW puts the pdf online, too, since I'm not ordering WD online.

IMHO I think the problem is well the army basically plays like it did before... It still mostly only plays like it did before.... With the same problems and unit gaps that it suffered from in it's last incarnation.

Their are some things you can't do any more, with other things you can now. But all in all it's pretty well what it was before.

It's less of a new codex, and more like a 5th ed update of the existing list. In the end of the day I would not blame Sisters of Battle Players for viewing the new list as a unnecessary exercise to say the least.

[Necron2.0]

... to me celestians are still very similar to their prior incarnation.

Ha! No, not even close. The old Celestians were elite troops. The new ones are just ... not. The old Celetians cost 13 points a piece, were initiative 4 and always hit on 3+ in close combat. When under the influence of "Passion" they were initiative 6 - as such, when empassioned, they were slightly better than DE Wyches in close combat (bear in mind that Wyches are a 10 point troop choice). Moreover, the HQ's Celestian retinue were an actual, honest to emperor complete and full unit of Celestians. As such, taking two HQ's, you could have an army with 50 Celestians.

The new Celestians are merely regular sisters that are slightly more butch. That's it. They are one point stronger than a normal sister. There prescribed act of faith is weak. If someone wanted to maximize the number of them in their army, the most that could be taken is 38 ... not that I'd ever waste even a single point on Celestians now, because they suck. Compare them against DE Trueborn. A squad of Trueborn (which cost three points less than the WD Celestian) would likely table an equal sized number of Celestians. If the Trueborn managed to get one pain token, then tabling is practically a certainty.

[doom-kitten]

Not gonna complain here but I kinda wanna know, how many other armies have to pay 20 pts for a Heavy Flamer? The Faith systems is kinda lame but I do like the new different faith per squads, Celestians with never be in my army now but they never really were except a 5 girl squad to follow my canoness around. My Canoness is know a sad, so very sad piece of junk compared to her previous incarnation but Celestine is awesome and I love the cheaper Seraphim. Dominions scouting...evils plans are forming for the death of dreaded landraiders and orc battlewagons. I'm gonna be able to play the army til this Saturday not the kinda game I would like as it will be four players on one table, but I'll reserve my more ranty concerns til I've atleast played them.

[Melissia]

I still don't buy the old faith system being easier. Before, units could generally rely on one set of faith skills being either (+/-) a certain size.. Now its a automatic 4+ since every squad comes stock with a superior. 75% if you use similacrum imperialis like the older dex. Not even talking about priests or unit casualties yet. Something tells me the math for the new way would allow better consistency of faith then the old. Just everyone can no longer use every different act. Splitting the acts up between units kinda worked out as most units got to keep the one most useful to them, with a couple other fun ones thrown in for fun in the bargain!

Now you roll a thousand D6s and then add a bunch of numbers to them and do a bunch of re-rolling to everything. How is that less complicated?

[Lordgimpet]

The old siystem ws not that complicated, just had to remember which ones wer over and which were under, add to that most often you only used 2 of them (3+ or rending)

Actually to make the new system simpler they should have kept the laud hailers as a transport upgrade, and when a unit within 12 makes their AoF test and rolls a natural 6 the get the act off for free, as opposed to making a further roll to get it refunded and keeping it limited to a unit most wouldn't take. rerolled result from a simalacrum should count, to improve AoF viability.

[JMichael]

now that must have been one hell of a chaos list . How about you try playing sob against the basic 2DP zerker/pms mix oblit list and then judging if the list works or not.

Well it was 1250 and he didn't want to beat me up since I was testing a new 'dex and new strategies.

But he had
Lord w/2x L. Claws
Greater Daemon
19man CSM
10man CMS w/2x Plasmaguns
5man Raptor squad (not sure of their loadout)
3man Obliterator
2man Obliterator
3x Rhinos w/havoc launchers

[daboarder]

The old siystem ws not that complicated, just had to remember which ones wer over and which were under, add to that most often you only used 2 of them (3+ or rending)


That wasn't that hard either, defensive were over, aggressive were under.

[Fibonacci]

I would like to have seen Faith take a page from DE.

First up, "Strength Through Faith." Instead of Pain Tokens you earn Faith Tokens. Next, the Acts of Faith (aka, Combat Drugs). Roll a die and every Faithful unit gets that Act for the rest of the game. Cut and paste the rules to add a little extra boost to the SoB close combat ability or tailor to fit a shooting army; Relentless instead of Furious Charge for example.

[doom-kitten]

I would like to have seen Faith take a page from DE.

First up, "Strength Through Faith." Instead of Pain Tokens you earn Faith Tokens. Next, the Acts of Faith (aka, Combat Drugs). Roll a die and every Faithful unit gets that Act for the rest of the game. Cut and paste the rules to add a little extra boost to the SoB close combat ability or tailor to fit a shooting army; Relentless instead of Furious Charge for example.

Don't wanna put you down but that would give the army a DE flavour and well I much prefered the Battle Sister flavour offered by the last Faith System personally I think the new Faith abilities should stay but the System it'self should return to the original points accumulation. Basically and army consisting of two battle sister squads, 2 dominion squads, a seraphim squad, canoness and celestine would generate 10 faith points, Sisters (1 each), Dominions (1 each), Seraphim (1), Canoness (2), Celestine (3). This would give a more reliable spread of points that can be adjusted by varying points sizes.
By using the unit differential faiths you won't have the 3rd Edition nightmare that was the vast series of faith combos, my favourite was Seraphim with Celestine charging with Divine Guidance, Spirit of the Martyr and The Passion. Basically they Struck at Int 6, had three attacks each (Superior with 4) that counted as power weapons on a to wound of 6 and a 3++ save, Celestine had 5 attacks at strength 5, Int 7 and a 2++ save.
As to rolling for success there nothing wrong with the new system the +1's to the roll are pretty easy to remember and you never have better than an +3 to the roll and with a Sin thingie that I forget the spelling of you can reroll that attempt. As a bonus a return of the Martyrdom Rule will allow players to regain with the death of Battle Sister Characters and Squad Leaders.
To me this would a fair combination of both Systems that is reliable and easy to use while maintaining a Battle Sister flavour, oh and dropping Heavy Flamers back to 12 points would be nice I don't mind the 12 pt sisters as their less points than my previous Squads anyways. I'd really like to see the Blessed weapon brought back so my Canoness will stop crying and hurting her wrist trying to hack through things with Str 3 even with Preferred Enemy it's a pain in the ***.

[Fibonacci]

Don't wanna put you down ...
Don't sweat it. The post was half in jest. If they wanted to make a more simplified solution there are other ways they could have done so and the "cut and paste DE rules" seemed in keeping with the rush job format of the codex. :rolleyes:

[Necron2.0]

This has been mentioned in other threads, but not here I believe. Another deficiency of the Cruddace codex is the Sisters now have no protection against psykers. Used to be that psychic powers that targeted Sisters failed on a 5+. Now they've got zip in the way of protection, and cannot really take psykers of their own to compensate.

[doom-kitten]

Don't sweat it. The post was half in jest. If they wanted to make a more simplified solution there are other ways they could have done so and the "cut and paste DE rules" seemed in keeping with the rush job format of the codex. :rolleyes:

Yeah rush job is the nicest thing you can say about the Sisters "Codex" I've only used it twice so far and I've lost both games horribly mostly cause I keep trying to play the way I used to :D. I saw one guy actually win with the army, well actually my army he borrowed it, and he played in what looked to me like a marine play style and it was depressing.

[Kawauso]

I really don't understand people saying that this new Faith system is so much better or that the old one was in any way confusing.

And I don't even play Sisters.

My opponent who regularly does always had a well-displayed tally of his faith points and always kept it properly updated. I could never remember which powers required rolls over or under the unit sizes, but it's not like I was ever surprised by what the powers did after playing with him a few times (though, granted, it's difficult for it to sink in just how -tough- some of those units could get with some acts - like the 3++...saw a small squad of Seraphim hold up an assault termy squad for an entire game!).

The new system just...sucks. It doesn't scale with the army and relies a -lot- more on random chance...and it's no simpler than the old system.

IMHO they should have just stuck with the old way for calculating faith points and changed it to a LD test to 'simplify' things...maybe tweak a few of the powers. I don't think it's all that bad that each unit has its own 'type' of AoF now...but some of them just suck, and almost all of them only do one thing, which really kills versatility.

I would have liked to see it handled more like GK psychic powers were. Everyone gets hammerhand (which has the potential to always be useful) and force weapons, and their own power that compliments whatever sort of unit they are. Instead, sister units all get only 1 power each which typically has only 1 use...oh, and they may not be able to use it, since only D6 units in the army per turn even get to attempt their powers. And they can't use powers in the opponent's turn...geez.

Oh, and why the Sisters don't have -any- psychic defense any more is beyond me.

I really wanted this codex to be half-decent for the sake of playing games against my buddy, but it just looks like a colossal letdown. :(

[Allistor Preist]

The old system confused a lot of non-WH players, so I will concede that this system looks sipler at its core.

1d6 faith points, possible reroll.
5+ with modifier to activate, although some of the modifiers are poorly phrased or thought out.
Activates any act available to the unit, which means the unit's act or the canoness's.

Pretty simple compared to roll over for this, under for that, LD for this and which who is faithful how?

But it still suffers from needless complications and several new issues.

For example, how useful is Divine Guadiance with MM equiped retributors? Or Eternal Crusade if you take assault weapons or gear for close combat? Even as you start typeing the question, "Why do that when Eternal Crusade with MM is so much better?" but that is my point. Too many units have to be built a specific way to get a real benifit from the acts.

Want a multi melta retributor squad? or a command squad with assault weapons? Or to put your Canoness with the command squad? Guess you'll save a few faith points there.

Also, as it stands, where to spend faith points is not a choice so much as a hierarch. 1) Dominions and Seraphim in shooting range 2) Repentia in close combat or heavy bolter rets 3) Basic Sister Squads in retreat 4) Command squads that need to move 5) basic sisters shooting or in CC 6) the canoness or celestians in close combat. If the cannoness is with a celestian squad or repentia, bump her up to slot 4.

But it is not the fact that the acts are less reliable, more limited in use or less spectacular, it is that they are all three. Well that and the fact that others get much more reliable versions of similar abilities.

[doom-kitten]

In my opinion the acts are very weakly playtested with a couple exceptions such as dominions, Retributors with MM will likely not be an issue as I've never seen it done before and have never used MM with mine either. It seems pointless to equip them that way, my reasoning is at 5 pts a HB they will never be to costly to field and with luck that Rending can actually glance a Landraider or similiarly armoured vehicle, roll of 6 plus Strenth 5 with a d3 extra. At a range of 36 inches they can reach out and touch without really having to move unlike a MM which has to get closer or wait for the enemy to blunder into it.
The old Faith system was not confusing and I'll never understand why people argue it was, first of all you got a point for every faithful unit basically any battle sister unit and character, if you paid for the superior of course. There was no +1 or +2 to the roll is was just 2d6 needing to roll under or over squad count depending on Faith and you could get faith points back when your characters and squad leaders died. Anyone I ever player count onto it quick and could always guess what powers I intended to use.
My view of the new army is that most sisters list are going to be almost identical because theres limited actually useful squads, I imagine Celestine and Kirynrov are going to frequent lists and while likely be a permanent addition as their both nasty and benifit the army more than any of it's other HQ's, the canoness is just garbage.

[Melissia]

To get that retributor you have to give up an Exorcist, which is better. Even with Rending, Exorcists still penetrate more often (8+d6 versos 5+d6 with a chance of 5+d6+d3, on average only just over one heavy bolter shot out of four heavy bolters will rend each round, which means one or two shots will penetrate AV11-AV13 armor)

[DarkLink]

Actually, exorcist vs. retributors is a good question now.


I'd first off assume that you have enough melta in the rest of your list to deal with Land Raiders, so we're mostly looking at killing AV11-13. Here's a comparison of retributors with 4 heavy bolters plus rending and exorcists averages against each armor value, ignoring cover:

AV 11
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, .39 glances and 1.17 pens with AP 1. That gives .91 Immobilized/Destroyed results.

Retributors
12 shots, 8 hits, 1.33 pens, .67 Immobilized/Destroyed.

AV 12
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, .39 glances and .77 pens with AP 1. That gives .65 Immobilized/Destroyed results.

Retributors
12 shots, 8 hits, .45 glances and .89 pens, .52 Immobilized/Destroyed.


AV 13
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, .39 glances and .39 pens with AP 1. That gives .39 Immobilized/Destroyed results.

Retributors
12 shots, 8 hits, .45 glances and.45 pens, .3 Immobilized/Destroyed.



So, yeah, the Exorcist is better anti-tank, but not actually by that huge a margin. I don't think you'd lose too much in swapping out one Exorcist for some heavy bolter Retributors, and you'd gain some anti-infantry. Of course, Retributors are pretty much immobile, and have a shorter range. And you have to use Faith to get Rending. 10 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters is only 10pts more than an Exorcist, though, so not a bad deal at all.


Edit: Finally saw a copy, and man what a horrible codex. It's as bad as the old Daemonhunters codex, and that's saying something. Literally the only good units are Celestine, Uriah, Deathcult assassins Seraphim, Dominions, Exorcists and Retributors. None of those score, they compete with each other for a limited number of spots, and you can't make a good army out of just those units. I'm glad Sisters aren't my main army, I can afford to just keep the models on my shelf until they get a real codex someday.


Edit again:
Just for comparison, here's how many Marines each unit kills per turn, with and without cover and ignoring Rending:

With Cover
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, 1.94 wounds, .97 dead.

Retributors (outside of Bolter range)
12 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.78 dead.

Retributors (24" range)
12 heavy bolter and 6 bolter shots, 8 heavy bolter hits and 4 bolter hits, 7.33 wounds, 2.44 dead.


Without Cover
Exorcist
3.5 shots, 2.33 hits, 1.94 wounds, 1.94 dead.

Retributors (outside of Bolter range)
12 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.78 dead.

Retributors (24" range)
12 heavy bolter and 6 bolter shots, 8 heavy bolter hits and 4 bolter hits, 7.33 wounds, 2.44 dead.


So Retributors are, expectantly, better anti-infantry in most cases even against Marines and even without Rending from Faith.

[dvs1]

Am I the only one considering penitent engines? Yes they're av 11 open topped and 3 aint so scary...thats why you take 9. Scouting dominion squads with MM immolators to take out the early threats to the engines while they run willy nilly towards the enemy. They themselves are excellnt AT up close as well as horde clearance.

[andrewm9]

Am I the only one considering penitent engines? Yes they're av 11 open topped and 3 aint so scary...thats why you take 9. Scouting dominion squads with MM immolators to take out the early threats to the engines while they run willy nilly towards the enemy. They themselves are excellnt AT up close as well as horde clearance.

Consider this. If one of your Penitent engines gets penetrated by any ranged weapon it dies on a 3+ (2+ if they use AP1 weapons) unless they are AP - then it dies on a 4+. For thier high point cost and considering how slow they are are they really worth it? Now your local meta may be different than mine but with all of the melta running around where I live, those Penitent engines will just die.

[DarkLink]

That's also like 800pts of easy kills. Ork Kan walls are pretty good, but compared to those Pentinent Engines just can't compete.

[eldargal]

Yep, penitent engines have gone from being utter rubbish no one used to being utter rubbish no one will use.

[dvs1]

thats why i would spam 3 dominion squads with melta and MM immolators to attempt to deal with threats. Can't we run the engines up behind some BS sqauds of in their rhinos for cover? Saying they suck just cause of AV 11 open topped aint right, cause too many people use devil fish, vypers , and WW etc. They are expensive, but i think may have some uses. Point taken though, they are expensive. I'll try em out this weekend. Something a little different than the already established builds.

[Kawauso]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by comparing the engines to those units...

Yeah, devil fish are expensive, but they're AV12, not open-topped and can be upgraded to always have a cover save outside of 12", which is damn annoying.

And whirlwinds aren't as good as other marine tanks, sure, but they still have their uses here and there.

Let us know how trying out those penitents works for you, at least. :)

[dvs1]

I meant War Walkers. Just saying being opened topped units doesn't automatically make you bad. A bit expensive yes, but thats the whole codex so no nothing new there. On that note i just checked and WW aren't openned topped either, so i guess thats that. Sorry for the bad comparisons, but I'm trying to be optimistic about said units who everybody almost automatically disregards.

[doom-kitten]

I meant War Walkers. Just saying being opened topped units doesn't automatically make you bad. A bit expensive yes, but thats the whole codex so no nothing new there. On that note i just checked and WW aren't openned topped either, so i guess thats that. Sorry for the bad comparisons, but I'm trying to be optimistic about said units who everybody almost automatically disregards.

I'd like to give them a try too but, well their easy to ignore all your oppenent has to do is place a fast unit infront of them out of assualt range and then fly away and repeat. Your Engines will run around in circles and accomplish nothing and if they immobilise one it's wreak as the enigines will immediately move away, at 85 points each their not worth taking and they take a slot away from the superior Exorcist and Retributors both of which in the long run are way cheaper and much more effective. Give them a try if you want but I don't imagine they'll do much in the off chance they get through they will cause some pain.
Another negative is the have a low Int mean you charge a monster and it's probably eat them for breakfast, their a great looking model but not very effective for their cost. If you could outflank with them or something to make them faster but also reduce the point cost then they might be worth it

[DarkLink]

thats why i would spam 3 dominion squads with melta and MM immolators to attempt to deal with threats. Can't we run the engines up behind some BS sqauds of in their rhinos for cover? Saying they suck just cause of AV 11 open topped aint right, cause too many people use devil fish, vypers , and WW etc. They are expensive, but i think may have some uses. Point taken though, they are expensive. I'll try em out this weekend. Something a little different than the already established builds.

Saying something sucks because it is fragile is, in and of itself, nonsensical, you are correct.

However, not only are Pentinent Engines very fragile, but they are also very expensive, slow, uncontrollable, and not worth their points. This is what differentiates them from the other units you list (but WTF are devilfish on your list?).



DE skimmers are good because they are crazy fast, pack in lots of firepower, and aren't that expensive. Vypers are decent because they're one of the few ways to pack more firepower into an Eldar list, making their expense worth it. Same for War Walkers, but they're an even better deal than Vypers. PEs bring nothing good to the table that isn't invalidated by their expense and/or their fragility.

[Root]

Played the codex for the first time last night and learned a few things. For 115 points, The Saint may be my new favorite thing in 40k. She may be worth close to twice that, with a little help she mowed through 3 mobs of orks and a mekboy, died twice, and kept going. Exorcists are still amazing, Repentia are nasty if you can keep them somewhat under control, Celestians are meh, Retributors are cheap as crap, and Battle Squads are pretty weak compared to their old version. The new Faith system works fine, but most of the powers aren't that special.

So... as long as your 115 POINT(!!!) Super Hero is alive and kicking, you have a good chance of ripping **** up.

[doom-kitten]

YAY! Super Celestine the Battle Sister Zombie of Doom :3. No seriously she's awesome I took her even in the old codex every time, and now that she's 115 pts she's a steal and will kill, and kill, and kill, die but get up and kill again. She usually dies twos times on me, damn powerfists and powerklaws but she's always killed more than anything else in my army most amusing kill was a demon that slap her *** only to have her pop up on my turn and cut him to ribbons. Most people I play try desperately to get that powerfist in base with her but Int 7 means she doesnthe damage regardless, I've seen her wipe most special characters except Abbadon, Marneus, Lysander and Ghazgkhul (sorry I don't know how to spell his name).

[andrewm9]

I guess I don't get why people think Celestine is so good. She is only only goign to get about 2 wounds on the first turn of an assault no matter the toughness. Its decent but not awesome. She does nothing for the army overall. As a Living Saint and an eternal symbol of the Emperor's power she is uninspiring to said army. I think people are seeing WS 7 and I 7, but she only wounds on a 4+. If she were really cool she would get to reroll failed hits thanks to some Preferred enemy power or have her own unique and powerful act of faith that she could lend to a sqaud. Her Fearless is wasted really since she loses it if she attaches to a squad.

[doom-kitten]

I guess I don't get why people think Celestine is so good. She is only only goign to get about 2 wounds on the first turn of an assault no matter the toughness. Its decent but not awesome. She does nothing for the army overall. As a Living Saint and an eternal symbol of the Emperor's power she is uninspiring to said army. I think people are seeing WS 7 and I 7, but she only wounds on a 4+. If she were really cool she would get to reroll failed hits thanks to some Preferred enemy power or have her own unique and powerful act of faith that she could lend to a sqaud. Her Fearless is wasted really since she loses it if she attaches to a squad.

Umm you forgot if she dies, she gets back up on a roll of 4+ and may act as normal, for 115 pts you get a character which a 2+ save, 4+ invul, WS 7, Int 7, 5 attacks (6 on charge) that can die and return to life with a D3 wounds and act normally. To boot her sword fires as a flamer, for that small amount of points you get your points worth which alot of SC you don't get, plus only two wounds on the charge I doubt it she hits on 3's and anyone can have a good roll I don't prescribe to that odds crap. Yes I know I'm being an *** but seriously our codex sucks and I'll admit it but Celestine has always been my favourite model and she may not be that Chaos lord pumping out 11 attacks a turn but she far easier to put in a list and much easier to use with no drawbacks.

[DarkLink]

Celestine will, on average, hit 4 times on the charge and cause 2 wounds. That is statistical fact, assuming you don't use loaded dice. Not believing in math doesn't make it not not work, it just means you weren't paying attention in school.

If you really wanted, you could calulate the probability distribution of all possible results and figure out the odds of her causing 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 wounds, respectively. Two is the average, and the odds of rolling zero are probably greater than those of getting 5 or 6 wounds, but you'd have to do the math to see. Trust me, though, when I say that that takes a lot of punching numbers into formulas to get all those numbers.

[doom-kitten]

(Face Palm) I suppose I deserve this but whatever math and luck are just not something I want to discuss first because ot's pointless and anyone who rolls the dice will often find the math wrong and sometimes right. The Idea of odds and predicted dice rolls is like predicting weather you can't follow a pattern cause it's not consistent you get rain when it should be snow. As i see it a dice is 6 sided right so you have a 1/2 chance of getting a 4+ right? Well actually pick up that die and test your theory I bet the following will happen you won't get that 1/2 in fifty rolls, in a hundred rolls even a thousand you'll be close but not on the money.
Why because you'll get inconsistant patterns, put it in odds and evens you'll get 4 odds, then 5 even, then 3 odds etc. And rail on at me about math but it's not true and never will be only video games create that level of consistent odds, never will you happen to roll just the way the math tells you, you should.
To me it's luck and luck only and I'd prefer to stick to my uneducated beliefs.

[chicop76]

I played my first game with the new sisters, won against nids which was a close game.

I have found out in a 2k game 5 to 6 faith a turn seems to be enough. Most units midgame pass faith +2-4+ making the 20 point upgrade to re roll faith a waste of points.

The seraphim I ran with 2 hand flamers which really tear up infantry units. The re rolling to wound aspect is really nice, so shoot 18 times, and get 20 wounds on a flamer, and if they are still alive assault with 3 attacks a piece at ws 4 and they would not be alive. Celestine works well for the added faith, and close combat support. I put in an eviserator now so it will help out more in combat. Also the re rolling +6 invul save does help the unit out.

I know working on my dominion squads with 4 melta and a plasma pistol. The re rolling to hit can help with that 1 or 2 plasma rolling, and can tear up units like plague marines.

The standard troops rerolling on ones is also nice when rapid firing. It's almost like they have bs 5.

The +6 invulnerable does help. I forgot my vehicles have the invulnerable, but still it help saved a few troops here and there.

Also the Repentia have worked out well too.

I also wanted to point out that a squad of faithful sisters cost 124 pts while in this book it cost 125 pts. If you take a flamer and melta the squads cost the same. If you throw in a rhino you paying 18 points more in the old book. With the new dex for 18 points less you're getting re rolling on one's, the abilty to re group, frag, krak, and a +6 invulnerable. The squad can now take out low armour vehicles with the krak grenades. My main complaint is that they can not take an Eviscerator.

[dvs1]

I also wanted to point out that a squad of faithful sisters cost 124 pts while in this book it cost 125 pts. If you take a flamer and melta the squads cost the same. If you throw in a rhino you paying 18 points more in the old book. With the new dex for 18 points less you're getting re rolling on one's, the abilty to re group, frag, krak, and a +6 invulnerable. The squad can now take out low armour vehicles with the krak grenades. My main complaint is that they can not take an Eviscerator.

:D

[wolflold]

Its simple:

If you like the fluff, models and enjoy to play the game, you can take sisters. If you just play to win and only look at rules, don't play sisters! In my opinion sisters can work, eventualy you'll find tactics and sisters are playable.

[DarkLink]

Sisters have about 1 or 2 lists that can do ok (but really only ok). Take Celestine and Uriah, max out on Exorcists, Retributors, Seraphim and Dominions, take some DCA/Repentia for counter assault, and spend the rest of your points on Sisters. Thats about it.

[chicop76]

Sisters have about 1 or 2 lists that can do ok (but really only ok). Take Celestine and Uriah, max out on Exorcists, Retributors, Seraphim and Dominions, take some DCA/Repentia for counter assault, and spend the rest of your points on Sisters. Thats about it.

Yup. That is pretty much your only options whith rhinos thrown in.

[Lerra]

Sisters have about 1 or 2 lists that can do ok (but really only ok). Take Celestine and Uriah, max out on Exorcists, Retributors, Seraphim and Dominions, take some DCA/Repentia for counter assault, and spend the rest of your points on Sisters. Thats about it.

That's not surprising considering how shallow the codex is. Every codex has a few duds, but when your entire codex is ~8 pages, it means you're limited to a very small list of viable units. No wonder they have few real options for balanced army lists.

[DarkLink]

Right, a quality codex should have at least 2 "good" units per force org category, preferably 3, and these units should have multiple quality loadouts. Sisters have 2 good units in HQ, FA and HS, and maybe 2 good Elite choices, no truly good troop choices (not that battle sisters are bad, really, they're just not good), and each of the aformentioned units fall into very similar roles. Aside from Celestine, Exorcists and Seraphim, everything drives forward to rapid fire/melta/flamer stuff. There aren't a whole lot of tactical tools since everything does basically the same thing. Dominions scouting is about the trickiest thing you can do, and while that's a good option it's not a game-winner usually.


I mean, look at the GK codex. With the exception of one of the Special Characters (valeria), every single unit can be fit into a competitive list. There are a few units that are kinda meh, like Dreadknights, Storm Ravens, a couple HQs and Land Raiders, but literally everything else is a very solid unit with multiple possible loadouts. There are a dozen different general approaches to creating a viable competitive list, and each of those approaches has a lot of room for variability and customization. The GK codex has very, very good internal balance.

Compare that to the Sister's codex, and it's really pretty sad.

[Melissia]

Sisters have 2 good units in HQ, FA and HS, and maybe 2 good Elite choices, no truly good troop choices (not that battle sisters are bad, really, they're just not good)

Nnnnot really? For HQ, our only good choices are special characters. For fast attack, I'd say that it's pretty much only dominions that really hold their own, seraphim just don't do a very good job at being jump pack troops. For Elites, yeah, repentia got better, but they're still not actually very GOOD, they can be easily taken out by any horde army, they're really essentially just an anti-deathstar unit, and not even that excellent of one as they only strike at S6 (and only one attack if they use their act of faith). Really, only the DCA/Crusader/Arcos qualify as a really good choice there. And for heavy support, as usual, nothing really competes with the Exorcist in the list, it STILL contains effectively our only long-ranged anti-tank.

[DarkLink]

That's why I said maybe 2 elites, DCA are good and Repentia are... kinda sorta good. HQ has Celestine and Uriah, FA has Seraphim and Dominions (even with the hit and run nerf, Seraphim were so amazing and are so much cheaper now that I can't believe that they aren't a good unit), and Exorcists and Retributors (even if you'll probably max out Exorcists).

[doom-kitten]

The Seraphim in my opinion are worth taking in my opinion, I use them as my counterattack squad and run them with Celestine. As a jump troop I don't see how their not good, for one thing a battle sister is not a space marine they've always been Str 3, T 3, Ws 4, so their stats didn't plummet, the pistols rule gives them more fire power at short range then most jump squads and at 15 points each they dropped 7 points in cost. My unit only costs 190 points and is 9 seraphim, with 2 sets of handflamers and a sister superior with powersword, against vehicles they can't do much as they only have krak grenades but against an infantry unit their awesome. I have a question about the flamers thou, does the pistols rule apply to them? Do they fire as two seperate temples thus double the number of hits, do they count as twin-linked? I've been using them as two seperate but I feel this might be wrong and I'd really like to know.

[the jeske]

so their stats didn't plummet
they lost I from 4 to 3 which makes hit and run very very hard to use against anything.



against vehicles they can't do much as they only have krak grenades but against an infantry unit their awesome
how do they counter:
-draigo paladins
-green wave
-a csm unit
- a SW unit
-a DW unit
-A BA RAS

they can deal with an IG or fire warrior unit , maybe necron [probably not because those will just get syphoned by the monolith and then serafs get shot at] and a tactical that is if the seraf unit has the sait with it .
which means yours using a 300pts unit to counter a less then 200 one .

[andrewm9]

Seraphim also lost the ability to be stubborn which means they die rather easily in assault because they are subject to sweeping advances. I say they die like Necrons in assault. I had 3 squads die from a sweeping advance last time I played. If those 7 sisters could live and had access to an Eviscerator then we could do some damage in assault to some units.

[Root]

they lost I from 4 to 3 which makes hit and run very very hard to use against anything.



how do they counter:
-draigo paladins
-green wave
-a csm unit
- a SW unit
-a DW unit
-A BA RAS

they can deal with an IG or fire warrior unit , maybe necron [probably not because those will just get syphoned by the monolith and then serafs get shot at] and a tactical that is if the seraf unit has the sait with it .
which means yours using a 300pts unit to counter a less then 200 one .

Counters:
Draigo Paladins- nothing in the game counters these guys in melee. Shoot them with exorcists and stay away.
Green Wave- 5 flame templates rerolling wounds and some pistol fire. There will be about 5 left when you charge.
CSM Unit- Use mobility to not get charged. Shoot em up and jump in. As long as they aren't Plague Marines you should be ok. Overall a pretty even matchup.
SW Unit- Same principle as CSM unit.
DW Unit- There's only 5 of them and they're slow. You should easily put 20-30 wounds on him before the Initiative 1 stuff swings. If he doesn't roll a statistically reasonable # of 1's and die you may be in trouble.
BA RAS- You pretty much can't pop the Rhino so you need something else to do it for you. Since they'll probably have FNP they will be hard to kill. This is why I rate BA as 2nd best codex behind IG...

Overall the Saint + Seraphim combo is one of the best things in the book and as long as they can shoot first have a very good chance of destroying pretty much anything that isn't totally over the top. Stuff with 2 wounds or FNP will be a major issue for them, but heck they're only around 325-350 points, not a 500+ Deathstar...

[the jeske]

Green Wave- 5 flame templates rerolling wounds and some pistol fire. There will be about 5 left when you charge.
I think we maybe thinking about two different kind of units , because leaving 5 orc biker nobz and then charging in to them may not be the best idea.

If you ment flaming horde then you have a different problem , if a horde list is well build it will always out number you and then killing a single squad does not help , because even if you do wipe one out the counter charge kills your serafs[which costs more] .


am not getting the slower part . how are rhino mounted GK or CSM slower then jump pack serafs. speed is the same .+ unlike serafs till the rhino gets poped they dont lose models . even the 1 turn down time on charge is not such a problem when one remembers that 2/3 of games are about objectives and want or not the sob player will have to somehow kill those troops or at least try to contest[and 12" is the range of a charge and the range of the pistols of serafs] .

On RAS . And what if the army is DoA and its just as fast as you without down time ?



Overall the Saint + Seraphim combo is one of the best things in the book and as long as they can shoot first have a very good chance of destroying pretty much anything that isn't totally over the top
having a chance to drop and actualy regularly droping stuff is two different things. the saint kills 2 dudes on avarge. and they have to open the transport before it and let us remember that you move them in to shoting/charge range before you know if those exos actualy will pop that rhino. If they dont .then on next turn the meq disembarks taps you with pistols and charges and then he doesnt even need an HQ to break the unit.

[Root]

@ the jeske

Yes we were thinking about 2 different units. To me green wave is a big green carpet not bikers who would definitely chop this unit up. Bikers, like Paladins must be left to the Exorcists and avoided. (Which is tough cuz they're fast.) Against the carpet you gotta avoid the countercharge as best you can because you're right this squad will evaporate quickly if it gets hit by something good. A nice wall of Rhinos or some sacrifice units or careful placement of my guys is about all I can do to avoid it. Ideally id have 30 other sisters shooting the counter attack unit so it would die too...

Jump pack troops should never get charged by units in Rhinos unless they get stuck in combat by a third party. They have the mobility to stay out of charge range of embarked units. They can definitely get shot up pretty bad but unless the opposition has Fleet jump infantry should be pretty safe from charges. Unless of course you are in the situation you mentioned where I am trying to crack open the transport so the Seraphim can charge the passengers. I would try really hard to avoid this scenario because if you fail to pop the vehicle, you die. Unless its for a game winning objective late in the game I would much prefer to displace out of charge range and shoot up the vehicle from afar or fire meltaguns at it from the safety of my own Rhinos. I try to avoid those "do or die" situations whenever possible because that's generally when the dice Gods abandon me!

A BA DoA list would be rough. My best bet is to circle the wagons, suffer the initial violence, and counter attack with all I got. I think I would do really well if BA's didn't have those aggrivating FNP bubble priests...

[DarkLink]

It's a pretty big fallacy to assume that a unit isn't very good just because it can't kill everything in the game. Look at any of the decent units in the Eldar army and try to apply that logic to them, and nothing would be worth taking. Gks would be about the only viable army in the game.

[doom-kitten]

Counters:
Draigo Paladins- nothing in the game counters these guys in melee. Shoot them with exorcists and stay away.
Green Wave- 5 flame templates rerolling wounds and some pistol fire. There will be about 5 left when you charge.
CSM Unit- Use mobility to not get charged. Shoot em up and jump in. As long as they aren't Plague Marines you should be ok. Overall a pretty even matchup.
SW Unit- Same principle as CSM unit.
DW Unit- There's only 5 of them and they're slow. You should easily put 20-30 wounds on him before the Initiative 1 stuff swings. If he doesn't roll a statistically reasonable # of 1's and die you may be in trouble.
BA RAS- You pretty much can't pop the Rhino so you need something else to do it for you. Since they'll probably have FNP they will be hard to kill. This is why I rate BA as 2nd best codex behind IG...

Overall the Saint + Seraphim combo is one of the best things in the book and as long as they can shoot first have a very good chance of destroying pretty much anything that isn't totally over the top. Stuff with 2 wounds or FNP will be a major issue for them, but heck they're only around 325-350 points, not a 500+ Deathstar...

Thanks Root :D, said it better than i ever could, anyways on the reverse I'd like to know what SM Assualt Marines or even Raptors could do against said squads. To me Seraphim have always been a harrassment squad not a front line assualt troop and they can still do this to a degree. Plus when you combine their fire with two 15 girl sisters squad rapid firing theres often not awhole lot less to worry about, Draigo Paladins might be scary but when your making tomatoe sauce out of them while an exorcist their just not that intense anymore.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

For the elite status of what Celestians and Seraphin are, they both should have been able to upgrade with power swords.
Especially Celestians, who are if fluff is right the best of the best. Look at most elite chooses, in other armies, they have access to power weapons.
So why did't they give the same option for them??

I can understand that Seraphin dont, but seriously shooting with 2 pistols is great, but why would you assauly with them, at T3 Str 3?? unless your assaulting IG. Only the Superior gets access to a CC weapon. Give the player a choice of making them CC or Shooters.

Same with Celestians, either take 3 heavy weapons or allow them to take Power weapons.

[L192837465]

For the elite status of what Celestians and Seraphin are, they both should have been able to upgrade with power swords.
Especially Celestians, who are if fluff is right the best of the best. Look at most elite chooses, in other armies, they have access to power weapons.
So why did't they give the same option for them??

I can understand that Seraphin dont, but seriously shooting with 2 pistols is great, but why would you assauly with them, at T3 Str 3?? unless your assaulting IG. Only the Superior gets access to a CC weapon. Give the player a choice of making them CC or Shooters.

Same with Celestians, either take 3 heavy weapons or allow them to take Power weapons.

Does the dual weilding pistols not count as two cc weapons in combat? So you get a shot off, then 3 attacks each on the charge? That's really not shabby, and can put a lot of hurt. Remember the law of numbers.

[andrewm9]

Does the dual weilding pistols not count as two cc weapons in combat? So you get a shot off, then 3 attacks each on the charge? That's really not shabby, and can put a lot of hurt. Remember the law of numbers.

Thats 3 attacks that hit on 4's and wound on 5's for many units in the game. It sounds great until you start looking at those numbers. Then those wounds you rolld must meet up with the armor save. Attacks and wounds don't mean a lot if they don't stick.

[Iceman]

Well, assuming you are attacking a MEQ unit, if you have a unit of 10 Seraphim with 2 of them carrying flame pistols then you are up to around 16 pistol shots (2.67 unsaved wounds) and 4 flamer templates (assuming they overlap 4 models each, then that is another 4 unsaved wounds). These assume the Act of Faith allowing you to reroll wounds is successful. Angelic Visage means that is pretty likely. Since most squads will have at most 10 troops in it, that means there will probably mean you charge the 3 survivors of that fusillade with about 30 attacks. I realize that the MEQ will get to strike first, but the 3+ armor save gives you a decent chance of survival. In fact, assuming that they have a sergeant and 2 tactical marines left they will only inflict .44 unsaved wounds. If your Superior is carrying a power sword, then you will probably finish them off or at least inflict more wounds.

Obviously this is dependent on not being unlucky during the shooting part, but if everything went according to plan all the time the game wouldn't be any fun.

[GrenAcid]

@iceman
You are talking about 200pts with T3.....yup...if they ever reach unprotected tactical squad it will work(with full unsrcached squad)...we all know this wont happen.