Obvious Cheating- What to do?

[FTE-Charge!!!]

Hello all,

A quick chat today about something that is very apparent in my local scene which irks me greatly; Obvious Cheating.

This term, to me, means small, but game changing things like measuring more than the actual distance, *******izing the TLOS rules and guesstimating certain 'small distances'.

To me, its not the rules themselves that are being cheated, but certain mechanics that are being taken advantage of. I often play games where people use part of the tape measurer for extra distance, and dont even bother measuring small distances like consolidations.

Also, I play Daemons and my big monster fellows really do need to be out of LOS to survive. My opponents consistenly state that they can see all of my units even when I cannot see their units. They try telling me that I will get a cover save.

BIG WOOP! Big daemons dont need one due to inv. save, thus my trying to hide them. And that little guesstimation in distance might not seem like a big deal, until you charge me next turn that is!

So, how can I call out these activities when I see them without sounding like a rules hound? Im not a very competitive player, just looking for fun; and the reactions I get when calling out people (politely I might add) is nothing if not a bit shocking.

Have at it, how can we stop this behavior by bringing it to the attention of the players responsible?

[wittdooley]

Hello all,

A quick chat today about something that is very apparent in my local scene which irks me greatly; Obvious Cheating.

This term, to me, means small, but game changing things like measuring more than the actual distance, *******izing the TLOS rules and guesstimating certain 'small distances'.

To me, its not the rules themselves that are being cheated, but certain mechanics that are being taken advantage of. I often play games where people use part of the tape measurer for extra distance, and dont even bother measuring small distances like consolidations.

Also, I play Daemons and my big monster fellows really do need to be out of LOS to survive. My opponents consistenly state that they can see all of my units even when I cannot see their units. They try telling me that I will get a cover save.

BIG WOOP! Big daemons dont need one due to inv. save, thus my trying to hide them. And that little guesstimation in distance might not seem like a big deal, until you charge me next turn that is!

So, how can I call out these activities when I see them without sounding like a rules hound? Im not a very competitive player, just looking for fun; and the reactions I get when calling out people (politely I might add) is nothing if not a bit shocking.

Have at it, how can we stop this behavior by bringing it to the attention of the players responsible?


Uhhh... Very publicly call them out?

[Drunkencorgimaster]

That is a tough one if you have more than one person doing it. Usually rule bending is done by just one or two people in a group. They tend to find themselves without opponents pretty quickly and either address the problem or leave. If you have a cluster of people doing this...well, that is a whole nuther' issue. I agree that calling them out is a good idea. If that does not work, avoid playing the offending parties if possible.

[DarkLink]

Loud and repeated use of the word 'bull****' comes to mind.

[sps62487]

One reason I hate playing at GW stores, Little kids. IM not talking about the 15, 16 y/o im talking about the kid that is 12 or under. Not all kids that are 12 or under are bad players and don't know the rules. SOme do. Back when i was 13 i knew the rules and all the older guys liked playing with me because i knew the rules and wasn't annoying. Man that reminds me i've been playing for 11-12 years. Anyway they may not know that rule. Hell I've walked into a GW store once and saw kids not knowing the rules it's what them and their friends made up. I would suggest just point it out kindly, and teach. The only way to stop it is to counter act it and teach them right.

I still talk to many of the guys from my hobby store through the years, even though personal conflicts got in the way of some i still talk to many of them and game with them as well.

[lobster-overlord]

get better opponents. if they ask why you stopped playing them, tell them why, other wise, if you don't feel comfortable, just ignore them.

[negativezach]

My wife and I used to own a game shop and I hate cheaters. Everybody makes a slip once in a while when there are a million and half rules to a game, but we didn't allow people to cheat outright. If there was a discrepancy we encouraged people to speak up [politely of course]. If there was an unsolvable question we solved it with a role off or a house ruling. If the player made this a habit though, we quickly resorted to a 3 strikes store rule. The good players stayed, the bad ones soon moved on. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. The rules are there for a reason, and so are updates and FAQs. If you can't play right don't play, we didn't tolerate ruiners of fun at our place.

Just call them out, or get someone from the shop to make an impartial ruling if they can. Or meet him outside his car in the parking lot and settle things with rough justice, lol.

-zach

[doom-kitten]

Personally the only one I cared about up above is the TLOS rules their ridiculous, area terrian rules need to come back but other than that, I can see why over measurings a problem as that extra inch is always a factor and it's hard to stop unless your constantly checking your opponents measurement which is rude. One thing you can do is enforce measuring from the rear of the model instead of from the front this prevent things like checking ranges and adding the base size of the model to it's movement. As for consoladation when someone rolls one inch yay they kinda get to step forward abit it's kinda sad to enforce a one each move for every model, consider orc players moving thirty guys and inch forward one at a time, not fun. One of the things I hate myself mostly because my armies vehicles are weak is the poeple who don't understand that you have to see a third of the tank to shot at it the corner of a tread is not enough.

[Lord Inquisitor]

You have to have some pretty big terrain to make it where you can't see part of a big daemon model, you do have to look from there guys. If you both disagree the best thing to do is 4+ it. And the best way to deal with cheaters is to bring the store owner in on your side, if that don't work you need to look for a new store.

[Deadlift]

Start rolling metal dice at their models. :D

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Go make yourself a games day shirt reading "cheaters beware, i have powerfists".

Seriously, had this guy played Black Templars, he always cheated, forgot rules one game, then would call you out the very next. Selective memory he had. Got to the point where the store owner and me called him out on it, well he being a narcasistic personality went red in the face objecting, until i layed out the rule book and told him to read the following lines for all the store to see.
Worked, have'nt seen him since.

[Wildeybeast]

I hate overmeasuring and I suspect it's one of the reasons why fantasy allows pre-measuring for everything now, a change that I strongly suspect we will see in the next edition of 40K. But for the moment, I would just politely point it out once, if your opponent continues to do it, take the tape measure off him and measure his moves for him, explaining that as he can't be trusted to play within the spirit of the game, you will have to enforce the rules vigorously on him. As for LoS, it can be quite a tricky one. There are situations where your model may not be able to see the enemy, but they can still see some of you, particularly if yours is a big model. Check it from their point of view and if you feel they are just pulling BS on you, ask an independent party to make a decision.
If people keep pulling this stuff on you, stop playing with them, if it is widespread among your regular gaming circle, consider raising it at a group gathering to see what everyone else thinks. Most people will probably agree with you and you can stamp it out togther. If for some reason they all think it's fine your either going to have to put up with it or find a new gaming group.

[Denzark]

1. Do nothing or...

2. Fling your dung at the table.

3. Get your wookiee to pull his arms off.

4. Upturn the table and scream 'revolution!' at the top of your lungs.

Or possibly

Have your rule book by the side and query everything you think he is doing wrong. Unfortunately the only counter to this is to call them on it.

[Gaz Taylor]

To me, its not the rules themselves that are being cheated, but certain mechanics that are being taken advantage of. I often play games where people use part of the tape measurer for extra distance, and dont even bother measuring small distances like consolidations.

Surely you ask your opponent if he has moved the correct distance if you think he has moved too far?


Also, I play Daemons and my big monster fellows really do need to be out of LOS to survive. My opponents consistenly state that they can see all of my units even when I cannot see their units. They try telling me that I will get a cover save.

Do you go round to the other side of the board to check for yourself?

To me it sounds like the group you play with has slightly different view of how to play to yourself. Things like moving and not measuring is common place as after a few hundred games you tend to have quite a good idea how far distances can be. I suspect your playing group has a couple of vet players who can do this and the rest of the group is basically imitating them.

[joescalise]

call them out and then take them out back and beat the sh!t out of them.

[Xenith]

One of the things I hate ... is the poeple who don't understand that you have to see a third of the tank to shot at it the corner of a tread is not enough.

Erm... sure you've read the rules on that one?

If you can see the tank, you can shoot it. If you can see less than 50% of the tank, the tank gets cover. There is nothing about needing to see at least 1/3 of the tank - you have just made that one up.

As an aside, its important to be able to differentiate from those cheating, and those that do not know the rules as well as you do.

[faolan]

I'm a fond of having both the small starter set rulebook and the hardbound rulebook in arm's reach for a reason. One is for citing rules, the other is for beating the rules into someone's thick head.

[Lockark]

Also, I play Daemons and my big monster fellows really do need to be out of LOS to survive. My opponents consistenly state that they can see all of my units even when I cannot see their units. They try telling me that I will get a cover save.

BIG WOOP! Big daemons dont need one due to inv. save, thus my trying to hide them. And that little guesstimation in distance might not seem like a big deal, until you charge me next turn that is!



When it comes to TLoS just walk over to thier side of the board and look your self. It's easyer then tryibng to argue. Sometimes due to TlOS you can't see them, but they do end up seeing you. It sounds wired but it dose happen some times.

You have to look to see what the model it self has.

As for guesstimation just don't stand for it. Make 6" and 12" measuring sticks witch they can use if their movement is sady. With over measuring and stuff like that. I know a few people that their hands just aren't steady enough and they keep doing it by mistake. I just made 6" and 12" messureing sticks from the red whipy sticks.

[Deadlift]

TLOS, I use the rubber band method. Cut one in half and stretch it from my model to the model I'm shooting. It gives you a straight line from A to B no problem.

[doom-kitten]

Erm... sure you've read the rules on that one?

If you can see the tank, you can shoot it. If you can see less than 50% of the tank, the tank gets cover. There is nothing about needing to see at least 1/3 of the tank - you have just made that one up.

As an aside, its important to be able to differentiate from those cheating, and those that do not know the rules as well as you do.

Ouch...very harsh sir and yes I was wrong, I'm sorry, and yes I did check to see if I was wrong after the fact and I still don't agree with the rule but am not interested it getting into an internet slap fight over rules.

[DarkLink]

It's fine to be able to shoot a tank when you can only see part of it, since you can see it after all. I do think that cover should be proportional for vehicles, though. If a little bit of the vehicle is blocked, 5+. If half is covered, 4+. If most is covered, 3+.


I hate overmeasuring and I suspect it's one of the reasons why fantasy allows pre-measuring for everything now

That's actually a good point, there.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Okay, I thought of another idea, but this one might be just a tad messed up.

If you happen to know that the guy cheating is a straight guy and if you are a dude too, the next time he cheats try slowly unbuttoning your shirt a little. Look him in the eye and with a deep-but-feminine voice (like former-wrestler, former-governor, former-actor Jesse Ventura trying to imitate Tim Curry trying to imitate Marilyn Monroe) say "Oooooh! You make me so hot when you do that!!!!!"

I'm thinking that might stop him.

[DarkLink]

That's like a youtube video I saw where a college party girl describes her "best idea ever". Whenever she was dancing and wasn't in the mood for being hit on but some guy tried anyways, she would just turn to him and stare at him with this expression:

http://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/last-house-on-the-left-shocked.jpg


She wouldn't stop, or even say a word, until he left her alone. Apparently, it's very effective.








Talk about wasting my life on the internet...

[FTE-Charge!!!]

Great ideas all, I will def have to get on their eye level to check out the LOS. Unfortunately I cant be too rude to the local crowd bc I do like playing there and many of these gamers are good friends.

Im thinking about for the measuring a nice solution. At the start of the game I will ask the player to describe their measuring method; ie, do you use base edge, middle, edge of vehicle? From their answer I can monitor their measures and hopefully keep consistent gaming.

I can also be a little more strict with those little casual moves. The TLOS I will have to be strict on and might just have to keep the page earmarked in the rule book.

[LordGrise]

On the TLOS issue? I keep a laser in my kit - they are very inexpensive now, and you only need about six feet of range.