Very New Fantasy Player

[Shadow Puppet]

I have been trying to get into WHFB for some time now. I have a lot of dark elf models for only playing 2 games with them and not knowing what i was really doing. Every person i have tried to talk to about the game and general list building advice has given me the cold shoulder. I have been playing 40k for about 4 years now. I would just like to try a new game system and would like to know the general ideas for list building. If anyone can give me a little advice on that i would really appreciate it. Here is a list of the models i own:

Lord on a dragon
malus dark blade
Lokhir fellheart
2 walking sorceresses
1 sorceress on a cold one
100 warriors (only 50 are built, 20 spears, 30 crossbows)
20 corsairs with hand bows 2 sets of command
5 cold one knights
1 hydra

[Slug]

Hi

I would recommend not using everything you have for starters, personally I would say to start at 750 points as that will give you a small but still fun game with enough points to play around with different builds. So from the models you have there.

sorceress lvl 2
unit of 20 spear men
unit of 20 or two units of 10 crossbowmen (I would recommend two units of ten)
unit of 14 corsairs
unit of 5 cold one knights

That is a basic list but should be good for learning the game, however I would recommend swapping the sorceress out for a master on cold one (use the Malus model) for at least the first game just so your not complicating the game with the rules for magic, just makes it a bit easier to manage.

For actually learning the game, I would recommend giving the rule book a read through, you wont really have to worry about the more specific rules that are mentioned later, but that will give you some idea of what to do, next you need to give someone a game, that is the best way to learn, it doesn't matter if they are new or not (I learnt the game with another new player) but make sure you are always checking the rule book as you go even if your playing the game with someone who knows what they are doing, as if you actually look at each rule as its used you will learn and understand better. Unless you study the book as you would for an exam playing games and being careful to follow the rules exactly is the best way to learn. I would actually say that that is one of the reasons that playing with another new player is good as you will both have to check the rules, whereas an older player will be getting things wrong (not deliberately) but not realising it and hence teaching you bad habits, I do the same when I play, and then you also wont be reading the rules unless they are very patient.

So good luck and I do hope you can really get into the game, that list is a very basic one but good for learning the rules, there is nothing dreadfully powerful or absolutely useless in it, however if you play against a more experienced player show them the list talk through how you think you will use each unit in the game, however please feel free to change the list especially as you get more used to playing. And do keep this thread going as I would love to know how you go and am happy to give any further advice or answer questions.

[Mazelf]

hey, my advice would be to buy at least one unit of 20 black guard, they are the bestest!

[Shadow Puppet]

Thank you for the advice. That is the best i have gotten so far. I think i will be able to get a game or two in this Sunday. I will let you know how it goes.

[Slug]

Good luck, hope you can really get into it.

[Shadow Puppet]

So i played a learning game against my brother yesterday. We both have only played 1 or two games of fantasy so it was pretty slow. To make things a little less complicated we decided to not use any wizards or magic users.
It was a 750 point game and i had:
2 10 man cross bow units
1 10 man spear unit
1 12 man corsairs unit
5 cold one knights
1 master on a cold one

he had something like 20 or so Warriors of chaos ( i forget his list)

I got completely stomped. The big game changing events were:
I failed a charge with my knights, needed a 5 got a 2 for charge distance and i did almost no damage with my cross bows. I either couldn't hit or couldn't wound any of his dudes.
So i feel a lot of the game was just bad luck on my part, but it was still interesting trying to learn a new system.

[Slug]

To bad so much came down to luck. Sometimes it wins games sometimes it loses them.
Still so long as you had fun and learnt something, though I would recommend going for one big cc unit rather than two ten man units as the two ten man units can easily get chomped up on their own by anything large.
Oh, and check how many points you were using in that list, seems to only add up to 625 for me, and if the rest is made up in items I would recommend spending it on either commands (banner, champion, musician) or more bodies.

[Lord Azaghul]

I got completely stomped. The big game changing events were:
I failed a charge with my knights, needed a 5 got a 2 for charge distance and i did almost no damage with my cross bows.


If I remember correctly, I think Cav rolls 3 dice and drops the lowest. Don't forget you're adding your 'base' movment stat to that roll.

[Shadow Puppet]

I did not see that Calvery could roll 3 drop the lowest, that would have helped. Good to know for next time
I was 12 inches away and rolled a 2 for distance, which gave me 9 in, not far enough

That was my list of dudes, i didn't include upgrades.
Here is my full list
1 10 man cross bow unit with a guardmaster
1 10 man cross bow unit
1 10 man spear unit with shields and full command
1 12 man corsairs unit full command
5 cold one knights full command
1 master on a cold one with a shield and Caledor's Bane

I'm thinking of changing my list to:
1 10 man cross bow unit with a guardmaster
1 10 man cross bow unit
1 20 man corsairs unit with hand bows and full command
5 cold one knights full command
1 master on a cold one with heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, and Caledor's Bane

[Lord Azaghul]

8th ed us about BIG units.
Don't bother with xbow dudes (sorry I know you already bought them) 8th ed shooting modifieres make them next to worthless. You magic to weaken your opponents units. DE have alot of great spells for that.

Corsairs with handbows aren't bad at all (look at the poison banner) then shooting becomes worthwhile, or even the armour piecing banner.
Units of 25 are now considered too small in 8th ed.

Cold Ones: sorry just not worth it - not even with a murder banner or the hydra banner.

xbows: make 1 big unit of 20. rank them 2x10 to start the battle, then reform them has he gets closer to get your range.

OR
If you keep you 2x10 units NEVER get in CC always shoot. WoC will kick your face in in CC.

And I can not stress enough: magic magic magic. 8th ed isn't about shooting - its about magic.

If you're going to continue in 8th you going to need large blocks and lot of magic - that's just the game now.

[Slug]

Don't forget Azaghul that he is new and only just learning the game, whilst I agree with your advice in general, though I do Think that crossbowmen are much better than you think due to their ability to cut through light infantry (5+ or less). But magic in your first few games just adds another layer of confusion, so if both players agree not to use magic it's more helpful, as once he knows what he is doing he can add magic in later. Not an attack on you, I'm just saying that he should avoid playing games with any magic in them just for now.

As for the new list, I would say much better, the unit of 20 will be able to hold up much better, I would personally say to leave crossbowmen in 2 units of ten if you continue to use them just for the added flexibility. though one tactic going off of Azaghul's advice is you could try replacing the crossbowmen with a unit of 27 (that is as many as fit in the 205 points for the crossbowmen) spearmen with shields and full command, it would give you much more punch in combat. The cold one knights along with the master, I have found them effective at smaller point levels in units of 5, they tend not to last through combats but will take out a good few guys with them potentially even breaking some units.

A final piece of advice would be try to play a few games with other people, one thing that can be bad is if you play only against one list you tend to customise your list purely against them. Also if it turns out to be a list that is very hard to beat with your army it can be a bit depressing. So, once you have a few games under your belt go into your local store and play against o few other armies, it also just adds some variety to your games

[magickbk]

Great to hear so many people starting Fantasy! For a long time in my area, no one played except for 2 or 3 older players that had armies from many editions ago.

The first thing you need to do when learning, however, is change your thinking. After a learning game, your first thought should be how much you learned, not whether you won or lost.

A few pieces of advice I have:
1. Read the rules. Play a game. Then re-read the rules, play again, and then read the rules. When you are learning, it's hard to just read the rules and then sit down and play the game. After you play or the next day, read through them again, not just skimming. Things will start to make more sense, and you'll see where you went wrong and where you missed something.
2. Basic Rules vs. Advanced Rules. The rulebook is split into sections to make it a little easier to get through. The basic rules are what you need to get through an infantry vs. infantry battle. The advanced rules put a lot of extras in (that is why you didn't know about the extra dice for your Cold One Knights, that is part of the Swiftstride rule, which all Cavalry have). One of the things to realize is that some armies have very simple rules, like Warriors of Chaos: they are tough, strong, and very straightforward to play - charge forward, fight, repeat. Their high toughness and excellent armor make them forgiving to learn. Other armies like Dark Elves heavily use Advanced Rules (such as Hatred on almost all your combat units) and work best using units in combinations to support each other to overcome their low armor save and low toughness.
3. Magic is tricky when you are learning. It was a good idea to leave it out at first, but you will find later on that Dark Elves can use magic to overcome a lot of difficulties (Chaos Warriors too tough to wound?, you can reduce their toughness with magic, or reduce their armor save, or both!)
4. Be wary of the intarwebz. Despite all these books and rules, the game is very different depending on where you play. It's what they refer to as the 'metagame', basically, the style of play in an area. This varies wildly from place to place, and has an escalating effect. In other words, a few players build their armies out with a single massive horde unit, 4 wizards, and some war machines or monsters, and suddenly everyone else does and that is the way the game is played at their store. It doesn't mean the same will be true where you play ( I hope not - that is damn boring).
5. If you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

Good luck!

[doom-kitten]

Hey alittle new to 8th Edition myself but I find upgrading your bow units with command models is often pointless with a few exceptions. I was interested in DE myself but got distracted by the Dinosaurs and went for Lizardmen, a five man unit of Cold one knights would be great at low points but once you get to the higher scale cavalry is mostly a flanking unit (still suffer the jokes about a retarded charge of 10 Cold One Riders into a unit of 50 Empire Halberdiers).

[Chronowraith]

Every unit should take a musician for the ability to use the swift reform rule. I even take them on my skaven slaves and those are largely throw away units. For ranged units they are very important as it allows the unit to reform and bring more targets into view and still shoot (depending on the weapon in question).

[tbunnelldo]

i, too, am looking into starting warhammer fantasy and am deciding between dwarves, high elf and lizardmen as my first army. any advice?

[magickbk]

i, too, am looking into starting warhammer fantasy and am deciding between dwarves, high elf and lizardmen as my first army. any advice?

The best advice that can be given is to stare at models and artwork and read snippets of the Army Books until you find something about one of the three that you love either visually or in concept. You want to love your army, and you aren't going to want to paint it if you don't like it. That's why we have crazy models instead of cards or wooden pegs.

That being said, the army should also fit the way you want to play the game. Here are a few key points of each:

Dwarfs have balance between shooting and combat, and they have a good variety of warmachines. They are also tough and well-armored, but very slow on the battlefield. They are also the least magically-inclined race in Warhammer, although they do have Rune-stuff which helps out as primarily anti-magic.

Lizardman go farther on the combat side of things than shooting. Although they can take quite a bit of shooting in an army, it is generally short ranged. Powerful magic users and large monsters-accessibilty. Good mix of unit speeds here.

High Elves are probably the most flexible of the armies you listed in terms of what type of force you want to build, but Elf units are fragile and must be used carefully to prevent them from being overwhelmed. Generally one of the faster armies with above-average magic. Not very tough, and most of your units aren't particularly heavily armored.

Of course, there are many different ways to build every army and there are plenty of players who will argue a few of the points I make here (I'm looking at you, Southlands players...), but generally speaking you still want to figure out the army you like, and then figure out the best way to use it in the game.

[tbunnelldo]

thanks, that helps. i was leaning torwards the high elves as i like there models and they have a little of everything from magic, to shooting to hand to hand to beasts.

[Shadow Puppet]

So i played another fantasy game today with this list:
10 man cross bow unit with a musician
10 man cross bow unit
20 man corsairs unit with hand bows and full command
5 cold one knights full command
master on a cold one with heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, and Caledor's Bane

My opponent played orcs with a list something like this:
50 savage orcs with a 6+ ward
hero warboss guy
6 spider riders
giant

he got first turn and it was really silly.

His giant moved forward and now that i knew my knights could roll 3 pick two on my turn i made my charge distance of 16 inches and murdered it. My knights then decided to suffer from stupidity for 3 turns and miss a very nice flank charge on his big unit of orcs. at the end of the game they did come in and mop up the rest of the orc squad after his orc mob killed both my crossbowmen units and my corsairs.
My two units of crossbowmen killed the spiders on my first turn and then picked off about 15 of the orcs and my corsairs killed another 10 or so.
I ended up winning in the last turn. It was pretty fun. After talking to some of the guys there im going to try and make a list that is something like this for the 2500 pt level that they normally play at the store.


Supreme Sorceress
Level 4
Seal of Ghrond
Sacrificial Dagger

Battle Standard Bearer
Cold One

Cauldron of Blood

Dark Elf Warriors
x50
Shields

Repeater Crossbowmen
x10
Shields
Musician

Repeater Crossbowmen
x10
shields
Musician

Repeater Crossbowmen
x10
shields
Musician

Repeater Crossbowmen
x10
shields
Musician

Repeater Crossbowmen
x10
shields
Musician

Corsairs
x30 all with hand bows
full command
pair of hand bows

Cold One knights
x5
Full Command
Ring of Hotek

Black Guards
x15
Full command

Hydra

[Lord Castellan]

The absolute most important thing to remember is that in Fantasy you aren't trying to kill your opponent outright, you're trying to route them. Making a unit flee is ten times better than grinding out for several turns trying to kill it. Always look for flank charges and force panic tests and make sure you get the advantage in combat resolution.

Oh and don't ever ever ever ever let anyone tell you something is worthless. That's just asinine and stupid to say. Everything has it's use and capability, what may not work in one list or for one player may work for another, so always make sure YOU are the judge of whether a unit works for you or not.