PDA

View Full Version : Cover saves & Ork KFF



ssylyss
09-06-2009, 01:11 PM
I'm sure this has been argued before but I can't find a real good answer anywhere.

If a unit of 30 boys is next to a BigMek with a kff does the majority of the unit have to be within 6" to get the cover save or does the entire unit get cover if a single boy is within 6"?

Thanks

Culven
09-06-2009, 03:50 PM
The only requirement is that the unit be within 6". There is nothing saying that the majority of the models in the unit must be within this range. So, a single model from the unit being within range is sufficient.

sorienor
09-06-2009, 03:50 PM
Single model.

Just like when taking an objective, only 1 model of the unit has to be within 3" not a majority of the unit.

It's how the rulebook uses "within"..it will be specific if the rule requires a majority of a unit (re: cover rule) or the entire unit (re: los) or just any part of a unit (re: objectives)

mercer
09-07-2009, 06:38 AM
Its rule does say all units within 6" get a cover save, so I would say like the others if even one model is within 6" then you get a cover save.

Though, by the rule book you need majority of the unit in cover to get a cover save. So would the entire unit need to be within 6" to get a cover save?

I would say any unit within 6" would get a cover save, but as per the rulebook majority of that unit must be within 6" of the big mek or you could really cheat badly the way others have suggested if its one model. Example being you have a straight line of 30 boyz 2" apart spanning the table, one of these is within 6" of the big mek, would they get a cover save because just one model is within 6" but the others span the length of the table? No, they wouldn't. As per the rule book, majority of the unit needs to be in cover the kff provides the cover ;)

Jwolf
09-07-2009, 10:20 AM
Its rule does say all units within 6" get a cover save, so I would say like the others if even one model is within 6" then you get a cover save.

Though, by the rule book you need majority of the unit in cover to get a cover save. So would the entire unit need to be within 6" to get a cover save?

I would say any unit within 6" would get a cover save, but as per the rulebook majority of that unit must be within 6" of the big mek or you could really cheat badly the way others have suggested if its one model. Example being you have a straight line of 30 boyz 2" apart spanning the table, one of these is within 6" of the big mek, would they get a cover save because just one model is within 6" but the others span the length of the table? No, they wouldn't. As per the rule book, majority of the unit needs to be in cover the kff provides the cover ;)

Incorrect. No matter how dumb it seems, any unit with a model within 6" of the Big Mek gets the cover save. The KFF doesn't provide cover within 6" of itself, which is what your interpretation (though that may be incorrect, as there isn't any need to interpret the rule - maybe "desired effect' is more accurate) requires to be correct.

ssylyss
09-07-2009, 01:49 PM
Incorrect. No matter how dumb it seems, any unit with a model within 6" of the Big Mek gets the cover save. The KFF doesn't provide cover within 6" of itself, which is what your interpretation (though that may be incorrect, as there isn't any need to interpret the rule - maybe "desired effect' is more accurate) requires to be correct.

That is probably the best aurgument I have read so far "that is does not provide cover within 6" of itself". There has been a lot of back and forth on this at the local game store. Around here people fighting orks tend to take mercer's stance.

mercer
09-08-2009, 05:08 AM
Incorrect. No matter how dumb it seems, any unit with a model within 6" of the Big Mek gets the cover save. The KFF doesn't provide cover within 6" of itself, which is what your interpretation (though that may be incorrect, as there isn't any need to interpret the rule - maybe "desired effect' is more accurate) requires to be correct.

Then thats just utter bull**** JWolf and goes against the core rules.

If thats the case you can get your mob of 30 boyz deploy them 2" apart so lets say for arguement sake you have a line of 90" boyz (2" cohency and 1" model base) and your telling me that the boy 90" + away from the big mek gets a cover save because the kff is within 6" - I doubt it.

The rule book says units get a cover save if majority of the unit is in cover, the ork codex says any unit within 6" gets a cover save - common sense says that majority of the unit must be within 6" to benefit from that cover, or else you could do what I said above and get a cover save several times and get cover for most of your army.

Rapture
09-08-2009, 06:44 AM
Then thats just utter bull**** JWolf and goes against the core rules.

If thats the case you can get your mob of 30 boyz deploy them 2" apart so lets say for arguement sake you have a line of 90" boyz (2" cohency and 1" model base) and your telling me that the boy 90" + away from the big mek gets a cover save because the kff is within 6" - I doubt it.

The rule book says units get a cover save if majority of the unit is in cover, the ork codex says any unit within 6" gets a cover save - common sense says that majority of the unit must be within 6" to benefit from that cover, or else you could do what I said above and get a cover save several times and get cover for most of your army.
That might be common seance but unfortunately they are talking about what the rule says not what it should say. Judging by what has been written in this topic it seems like the save goes to any unit with any models within the KFF.

mercer
09-08-2009, 08:21 AM
I'm not saying what it should say, I'm saying that it gives a cover save which would still follow the basic rules in the rule book. If thats not the case then a unit orks can be stretched across the table spanning 90" + and all get a cover save.

TSINI
09-08-2009, 08:27 AM
its only the same as the Lord Commissar's Aura of disciple, it makes any unit within 6" stubborn, theres no use in that only affecting the few models ina 6" range, it obviously affects the whole squad even if only a single model is within 6"

the rulebook clearly states what it means by within x"

Old_Paladin
09-08-2009, 08:39 AM
This is just another case of codex over-rides rulebook.
The KFF isn't just normal cover; so it doesn't have to follow the standard conventions.

Jwolf
09-08-2009, 08:56 AM
I'm sorry that the rules are not to your liking, Mercer. Since you're close than I, perhaps you should stop over and give the boys in Nottingham a thrashing? :)

There isn't anything in the rules to support any interpretation other than the one I have given, unless I've missed something. Further posts in this thread should have rules citatations, as we've reached the limit of opinion and preaching.

sorienor
09-08-2009, 10:49 AM
I'm not saying what it should say, I'm saying that it gives a cover save which would still follow the basic rules in the rule book. If thats not the case then a unit orks can be stretched across the table spanning 90" + and all get a cover save.

Yes, the conga line of orks is perfectly valid under the rules of the KFF. I use it all the time, actually.


This is just another case of codex over-rides rulebook.
The KFF isn't just normal cover; so it doesn't have to follow the standard conventions.

QFT

Nabterayl
09-08-2009, 01:26 PM
There isn't anything in the rules to support any interpretation other than the one I have given, unless I've missed something. Further posts in this thread should have rules citatations, as we've reached the limit of opinion and preaching.

Backing Jwolf up, page 3 of the rulebook:


When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points, as shown in the diagram below. So, for exmaple, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an enemy unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model.

Jwolf's right.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
09-09-2009, 02:43 AM
Sorry Mercer, but jwolf is correct. I've seen this question posed on several other forums including Bolter & Chainsword (an all power armour forum) and the answer is the same as jwolfs'. While this is just a fluff explanation (as it was explained to me) it may help you to visualize how the Kustom Force Field works. In the ork codex it says that Weirdboyz are the focal point for psychic energy subconsciously generated by their greenskined comrades,energy that binds them together in a common purpose. Weirdboyz resonate with the power of sheer orkiness,and the more orks nearby,the higher the charge held within their bodies. The Kustom Force Field uses this power,but in a different way. Instead of powering the machine (the way it charges a wierdboy) the machine coverts this psychic energy into a force field and this where the term causes problems. The machine does not make a bubble or a field around the entire group. Instead picture a tesla coil strapped to the back of a mekboy the arch jumps from the field generator to an ork within six inches converting this psychic energy into a material barrier that can deflect incoming fire and now visualize a chain lightning effect branching out to other members of the squad giving them each their own little protective field. Here is a very crude visual aid.

(Ork)~~(Ork)~~(Ork)~~~Mekboy~~~(Ork)~~(Ork)~~(Ork)
6' 6'


the 6' are supposed to be under the skwiggly lines between the Mekboy and the first ork in the chain it moved them over when I submitted

Gorgar
09-09-2009, 03:27 AM
In a similar vein:

Space Marine codex, Pedro Kantor's Inspiring Presence: All friendly units within 12" of Pedro receive +1 attack.
Space Marine codex, Honour Guard: Any Space Marine Unit within 12" of the Banner Bearer re-roll failed Morale & Pinning tests and same chapter units have +1 attack.

So only 1 model has to be withing 12" for the entire unit to benefit.


I'm sure there are more examples in other codex. It only seems objectionable when 30 boys get the benefit and not 10 marines.

mercer
09-09-2009, 04:12 AM
I'm sorry that the rules are not to your liking, Mercer. Since you're close than I, perhaps you should stop over and give the boys in Nottingham a thrashing? :)

There isn't anything in the rules to support any interpretation other than the one I have given, unless I've missed something. Further posts in this thread should have rules citatations, as we've reached the limit of opinion and preaching.

I'll be marching (well driving to Notts) and having words! lol.

I'm not arguing what it says and what your saying as I understand your point and not retarded (though could appear that way! lol) . My point is using common sense and logic surely you'd go on the cover save rules from the rulebook as you could do a giant conga line like I suggest. Do with this with majority of the units and you've got a 5+ cover save. Ok 5+ isn't anything to write home about, but its the principle.

Until we get a FAQ or Errata time will tell.

Culven
09-09-2009, 08:10 AM
My point is using common sense and logic surely you'd go on the cover save rules from the rulebook as you could do a giant conga line like I suggest. Do with this with majority of the units and you've got a 5+ cover save. Ok 5+ isn't anything to write home about, but its the principle.

Mercer, I think the issue may be in the way that you are looking at the rules. You seem to be operating under tha assumption that the majority of a unit must be in Cover in order to use a Cover Save. However, I do not think this is the case. Instead, think of it as, typically, the majority of the unit must be within Cover in order to be granted a Cover Save via the Cover Saves rule. However, the KFF uses a different mechanic in order to grant a Cover Save to the unit. Regardless of how it was granted to the unit, once the unit has the Cover Save, it can use it, regardless of how many models are within range or LOS of whatever granted it.

P.S. When you march up to Nottingham, could you pop into Bugman's and pick up a copy of the Bugman's Bar game for me? It would be much appreciated. :D

mercer
09-09-2009, 09:00 AM
I'll see what I can do once I've cracked some heads on decent confirmation FAQ's :)