Dark Eldar venom spam with metrics (1850)

[thecactusman17]

Ok, so I tried my hand at gauging the metrics of a slightly modified venom spam list. This list keeps Baron and the Hellions for their triple threat of shooting, CC and base capping, and 3 Razorwings because ******* they are sexy models. Also, I could run this list with a minimal investment in modding up some more venoms.

Metrics info from Bringer of Victory: http://nike40k.blogspot.com/2011/07/40k-metrics-frequently-asked-questions.html.

I did not calculate close combat results for this list. Anti-tank units were tested for both anti-tank and anti-infantry and their scores contributes to DMT scores.

Baron

4 Trueborn, 4 blasters, Venom w/ Dual cannons and nightshields
4 Trueborn, 4 blasters, Venom w/ Dual cannons and nightshields

15 Hellions, Helliarch w/ agonizer

5 Warriors, Sybarite, Blaster, Venom w/ Dual cannons and nightshields
5 Warriors, Sybarite, Blaster, Venom w/ Dual cannons and nightshields
5 Warriors, Sybarite, Blaster, Venom w/ Dual cannons and nightshields
5 Warriors, Sybarite, Blaster, Venom w/ Dual cannons and nightshields

Razorwing, splinter cannon, darklances, monoscythe missiles, nightshields, flickerfield
Razorwing, splinter cannon, darklances, monoscythe missiles, nightshields, flickerfield
Razorwing, splinter cannon, darklances, monoscythe missiles, nightshields, flickerfield

Shooting metrics:

Dead Marines per Game: 111 (turn 5), 133 (Turn 6)

Penetrated Rhinos per Game: 29.7 (turn 5), 35.46 (Turn 6)

Dead Rhinos per game: 9.75 (turn 5), 11.7 (turn 6)

It's easy to imagine this thing just roasting space marines, ain't it? In a more nakedly aggressive game, one could expect this list to feature Ravagers, additional trueborn, and more venoms.

[BlindGunn]

Have you or anyone else actually tried fighting with this army (or similar)? How do the calculations compare to reality?

(FWIW: I'm the guy who snatches defeat from the jaws of victory, needing a single 4+ on 6 dice in the last turn to win.)

[thecactusman17]

I've used similar lists. This one has a lot more venoms than i normally field, but i've done the 3 razorwings, super-squad of hellions, and I run two warrior squads in venoms in very large games. They can really put the hurt on a lot of things if they have the opportunity to concentrate their firepower, definitely. The trick, even with the list above, is that you have to generally scalpel out whole units before moving on to the next thing because return fire from anywhere hurts you something fierce.

[thecactusman17]

This is a second version of the same above list, but with all close combat reinvested into shooting. There are critical weaknesses in this list, the most notable of which is the extremely limited anti-tank options vs. anything which may be immune to lances (two units now from Necrons and Black Templars, I would expect more in the future as new stuff comes along for Necrons, Tau, Codex: Sisters of Battle and more).

2 Archons with blasters

4 Trueborn with blasters, Raider w/ Aethersails, nightshields and flickerfields
4 Trueborn with blasters, Raider w/ Aethersails, nightshields and flickerfields
3 Trueborn with blasters, Venom with cannon, nightshields

4 squads of identical warriors:

5 models, 1 blaster, venom w/ cannon and nightshields

3 voidraven bombers (identical) with 4x monoscythe missiles, Nightshields and Flickerfields

Metrics (I ignored CC, your average space marine could take on most of these units single-handedly which is why they all got boosts in the form of nightshields and flickerfields)

Dead Marines per Game: 124
Penetrated Rhinos per Game: 48.9 (not including blast damage from Voidraven bombers)
Dead by wreck/explode: 22
Dead by weapon destroyed/immobilized: 7.45
Glanced Rhinos per game: 68.45 (not including blast damage from Voidraven bombers)
Dead rhinos from glancing: 7.45

[w7west]

Accurate name, could be more accurate.

[thecactusman17]

Venom MADNESS.

or

EVERYTHING HAS WINGS WTF!?

[darkeldardenny]

You have all these numbers yet you forget about the player attacking back. Math hammer is great until you play the game and realize im not sticking to my numbers because i didnt factor in them shooting back, cover saves, horde vs mech and other such variables, yet im still sticking to your CC isn't accounted for. Then again you are an idiot for not counting CC. I have never seen a game of 40k where something wasn't charged. Your Math hammer is garbage if you honestly expect these results from these lists.

These lists seem terrible to me especially the one with hellions. I don't know if people on the internet are realizing but hellions suck some kind of awful. Both lists have terrible anti tank problems. If I was an opponent and I had tanks, every one of my anti tank (dont forget bolters for those razorwing fighters) will fire on your fighters, bombers and raiders. Once they are gone all you have are blasters. I will pop your venoms and then kill your blasters sir. Venoms are great to get small units across the board, they are not great when massed. They have the same problem Razorbacks have in Space Wolves lists, the squad they carry cannot protect them. Razorbacks can atleast pop the transport you want to charge. Venoms look at a transport and twiddle their thumbs while you wait on the anti tank units(which by the way, I just killed) to take shots at the transport. You have blasters? Great! I will stay 18.1 inches from you sir and your blasters will fall short. I have been reading your lists and your advice and I question if you have truly ever even played Dark Eldar sir.

[thecactusman17]

Glad you noticed, Danny! This was my first experiment with Metrics, and that was primarily my interest in this list. Frankly, Venom spam is something that I've always seen big problems with, and more importantly it just doesn't come across as a fun army to play.

Hellions sucking something fierce? I think you must have had some bad, and frankly atypical, experiences with them. Hellions, with the baron, are one of the best units in the book and Baron Sathonyx is far and away the best named character. Stealth means that they only fear templates and a few other no-cover weapons, they mass immense shooting every turn from outside of normal engagement range, and 60+ CC attacks from a full squad means that even "death star" units like Nob Bikers and Paladins will end up taking a lot of wounds and losing many models before attacking back. The best way to run Hellions is with the biggest single block you can afford and attaching the baron to them. If you are fielding 10 or less in anything other than a super-small game, expect to lose them all before they do anything. But run 15-20 and you will see how they can deal with almost every threat on the board.

Bolters, meltaguns, plasma rifles, and many other mid to short range weapons are meaningless vs. this list. Many of them have their range cut by 1/4 to 1/2, including rapid fire range and 2d6 melta. That's nightshields for you.

"Every one of your anti-tank" is pretty scary. But like any good Dark Eldar player, I carefully position and engage to ensure that I will NEVER face "every one" of your anti-tank weapons, and often they will die rather quickly in the game. You are making the same mistake you accuse me of, by suggesting that your units are immortal. I certainly don't anticipate that all of my units will survive, but I'm also generally capable of making sure that they don't all die turn one. Note for example how every single unit, excepting the Venoms, can kill most tanks in shooting or CC.

[Anggul]

The thing is, calculations like this presume that nothing of yours will die, and thus are rather useless. They will shoot you back, and things on your side will die too. The list looks good though, can't go wrong with a Sathonyx mob.

[blackarmchair]

What Anggul said.

The 40k metrics are there just to give you an idea of the raw firepower of your list. It doesn't mean that this list will actually kill 133 marines in a single game. It's just a way to judge the capabilities of a list against another.

[eldargal]

See, I have to question if you have ever played Dark Eldar. Apart from the rudeness, Hellions are not at all a bad choice, while the internet does get silly about some things in this case I think there is a reason they pop up in lots of lists. Competitive or otherwise. They are good. Perhaps you use them wrong? Your point about mathhammer is valid, but then I think you miss the point, he was illustrating how many potential Marines could be killed not saying 'this is how many will die'. It is no different from saying 'I have 30 anti tank weapons in my army', doesn't mean you are going to be able to use them all.

Your most serious mistake, which makes you lose what credibility you had at this point, is your statement that you will just sit back at 18.1" and shoot the blasters. Against the fastest army in the game? You are dreaming if you think you can dictate how far away a Dark Eldar army will stay from you.

In future curb the attitude, or at least try not to make the same generalisations and sweeping statements you accuse others of (unfairly).


You have all these numbers yet you forget about the player attacking back. Math hammer is great until you play the game and realize im not sticking to my numbers because i didnt factor in them shooting back, cover saves, horde vs mech and other such variables, yet im still sticking to your CC isn't accounted for. Then again you are an idiot for not counting CC. I have never seen a game of 40k where something wasn't charged. Your Math hammer is garbage if you honestly expect these results from these lists.

These lists seem terrible to me especially the one with hellions. I don't know if people on the internet are realizing but hellions suck some kind of awful. Both lists have terrible anti tank problems. If I was an opponent and I had tanks, every one of my anti tank (dont forget bolters for those razorwing fighters) will fire on your fighters, bombers and raiders. Once they are gone all you have are blasters. I will pop your venoms and then kill your blasters sir. Venoms are great to get small units across the board, they are not great when massed. They have the same problem Razorbacks have in Space Wolves lists, the squad they carry cannot protect them. Razorbacks can atleast pop the transport you want to charge. Venoms look at a transport and twiddle their thumbs while you wait on the anti tank units(which by the way, I just killed) to take shots at the transport. You have blasters? Great! I will stay 18.1 inches from you sir and your blasters will fall short. I have been reading your lists and your advice and I question if you have truly ever even played Dark Eldar sir.

[Anggul]

These lists seem terrible to me especially the one with hellions. I don't know if people on the internet are realizing but hellions suck some kind of awful.

With the Baron, they become very deadly. 3+ cover saves and re-rolling dangerous terrain, coupled with a load of poisoned shots and even more high-strength attacks, then factor in combat drugs. I don't see Hellions working as well without the Baron, but with him they are a deadly and terrifying force. You just have to fly them up behind a bit of cover and make fast template guns like hellhounds, firestorm baals and jump infantry with flamers high priority targets. Seriously, they bring the pain to almost anything, especially with the Baron making them better against tanks.