a sad day , take a moment to remember.......

[fuzzbuket]

the 3rd edition codices.


why am i sad? well 3rd ed dexes (DH as example)
had
written by andy chabers, phill kelly and graham mcniel (yay)
fulff/ stories
BIG armoury
army list
collecting a GK army
how to paint
how to convert
showcase (gamesday winners and staff minis)
daemonic battlefields (aka page of pics of skirmish games)
daemonic alleis for your opponent (and possesion!)
narritives (why do they fight ig?)
2 uniqe missions
special charecters
more stories!

5th ed
matt ward (boo)
matt wards 'fluff'
army lists
armoury
pics of the same GK and 1 or 2 pics of battlefields
army list


yes 5th ed is more competitive and 'child friendly' (look at the old SOB dex :P) and 'balanced'
but 3rd ed dexes were FUN :)

-fuzz

(p.s. this is my opinion, i know a lot of people disliked 3rd ed as it remeved a lot of units)

[MaltonNecromancer]

In response, my opinion:

"written by andy chabers, phill kelly and graham mcniel (yay)" - don't care.

"fulff/ stories" - always dreadful; never read a 40K story that wasn't terrible. So I don't care.

"BIG armoury" - Have you seen DE 5th?!! Every army has a massive weapon selection; it's just tailored to specific units now, rather than being for "hero" units (ugh) like before.

"army list" - They were always awful: "Really GW? My Marine army should have a Tactical squad, an assault squad, and a devastator squad? How original!I would never have thought of that!"

"collecting a GK army" - Most pointless part of the codex; I buy the models I like, and the ones that are good. I ignore the rest. I can work out which I like and which are good on my own - if I want an extended advert, I'll read White Dwarf.

I'm kidding, I'll never read White Dwarf.

"how to paint" - yes, like a total amateur. Honestly, black lining was a waste of time, and made your models look ugly too. Check the tutorials on Coolminiornot, or frankly any decent gaming blog.

"how to convert" - Or you could google "convert _______________"

"showcase (gamesday winners and staff minis)" - staff minis, I couldn't care less about. Games Day minis, yes. That I miss. Apart from on coolminiornot. Where they are posted. From multiple angles.

"daemonic battlefields (aka page of pics of skirmish games)" - Never cared too much for them myself; there seem to be quite a few in the new GK codex.

"daemonic alleis for your opponent (and possesion!)" - Not very well balanced, though. And I hear people quite like their games to be balanced. If you want them, just use house rules.

"narritives (why do they fight ig?)" - Again, just do it yourself.

"2 uniqe missions" - There's a whole book of missions now!

"special charecters" - Have you seen how many special characters there are?! DE have about ten!

"more stories!" - All of which involve heroes (yawn) bravely struggling, blah blah... blood, death, blah blah... We now have Black Library for all your war porn needs.

So ultimately, I'm not hugely convinced things have gotten as bad as you say they have...

[SonicPara]

Nostalgia is a cruel hallucinogen; if you give in to it then everything forward will always be inferior to your ever inflating memories of past "greatness." Just be happy that 5th edition is inviting, functional, flavorful, and modern casting technology has brought us models as breathtaking as the Dark Eldar revamp.

Live in the now and look to the future.

[Lexington]

Eh.

I'm no fan of a lot of what 5th Edition's Codexes do, but the Daemonhunters/Witchhunters era was pretty dreary in and of itself. Armories are unnecessary, and flatten points costs for upgrades that have variable utility depending on what they're given to. Most of the articles were bone-numbingly obvious (hey, buy miniatures, who'd have guessed?), the layout was shockingly bad, and while the background didn't nearly aspire to Ward's heights of feckless drivel, it was usually ho-hum at best. Heck, the only good story in the DH Codex was the snippet about Stern and his squad barging in on M'katchen, and that's because it was an old Bill King short from the RT days.

Honestly, if you want some really solid Codexes, the old 2nd Edition books were tough to beat. I still leaf through my copies of the Space Wolf, Chaos and Eldar books from that era, just because the writing and layout were so damn good.

[Astartes]

The fluff as of late has mostly been about the Imperium wrecking face, as opposed to the reality of our make-believe game where they're constantly on the defensive and losing worlds faster than they can deal with. I wish the Codexes would illustrate the sense of dystopian hopelessness that the 3rd ed book achieved.

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. ... Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the GRIM DARK FUTURE there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods." -Every 40k Black Library book ever

See, THEY get it. If anything, the Black Library folks should be the ones writing all the Codex fluff, to keep the game in line with the story and general mood/tone of 40k.

I feel like 40k has become toned+dumbed down, and infused with a cartoon-y element, to appeal to 'the younger audience' GW is always so concerned about. Listen: When I was 11 and I saw the Grim Dark Future of 40k, the old charcoal + pen and ink art of 3rd ed, I was like "holy ****, this is so much cooler than anything else I have ever seen" just because it felt geared towards a teen audience. The morbidness of the amazing art+fluff made the game appealing because it felt 'alternative', and what the internet has come to call 'grimdark'.

GW shouldn't forget their roots, and the appeal of a hopeless dystopian far-future of Humanity. It's what made them unique and drew in their now older customer base (who have more $$ than kids).

[Uncle Nutsy]

had a read through of the GK codex just for lulz.

half the stuff is in there for people who don't have much of an imagination. Do you need a reason why this army fights that army? just sit down for five minutes and come up with something. It doesn't have to be awesome, epic or anything. just a reason that you like. done!

Like the person above me said, if you want to learn how to paint your army? well, you can either just dive in, follow the tutorials that are everywhere or have someone else paint them for you.

I guess my tastes are fairly simple. I just like to play. and if it plays well and I don't get mullered even if I don't play a perfect game? that's cool too. I'm just in it for the fun. but a win is cool too. Couldn't care less who writes the dex as long as it works well in the current edition.

Now, if I want a good story, I can just go down to the local library, pick up a book and read that. Maybe get an idea or two from it aswell.

[Velium]

new gk book mentions ghost traps (tesserect labyrinths, my ***... thats a ghost trap) kind of hard to argue with that.

[Lexington]

new gk book mentions ghost traps (tesserect labyrinths, my ***... thats a ghost trap) kind of hard to argue with that.
True. The Grey Knights book would be slightly less odious if they'd replaced Draigo with Brother-Captain Willhelm Venkmanicus... :p

[eldargal]

3rd edition codices were terrible, they were, what, ten pags long with half a page of fluff mixed throughout. I miss Andy Chambers a bit, but beyond that I prefer the 5th ed codices even if some of the fluff is dubious.

[Xanadu]

Fuzzbuket, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you if you'd spell checked.

In my opinion, the current codexes are much larger, better written affairs than anything beforehand (other than the awesome chaos dex from the close of 3rd ed.) and we should stop moping about what was lost (like your infamous rant about losing Str6 but gaining Str4 ID CC attacks for GKs) rather concentrating on the bright things in the future to come.

[pauljc]

Sorry, Fuzz, can't agree with your statement. At all. 3rd Ed codexes were nasty. Evolution and renewal is key to our hobby, not moping around what used to be like a bunch of crusty old beardos. ;)

As has been said, the 5th Ed. 'dexes are marvelous. You can't honestly say the DE codex in 3rd is better than the new 5th one, right? If so, you're completely mental. The Necron codex? C'mon! :) Those flimsy little pamphlets like Craftworld Eldar? Please! :D

Plus, 3rd Edition painting looked like what we nowadays call beginner skill level. Dude, look at how far our hobby has come since then?

But to each his own, right?

[magickbk]

I love the old books. I also love the new ones. It's true, sometimes when you look back at your fuzzy, polaroid-faded memories it appears as if the grass is greener. It's sometimes difficult to separate the fun you had while you played an army from a certain book from the actual book itself. Progress is no better or worse than history, it is both in some ways, neither in others, which all simply makes it different. When I start any army project, the first thing I do is read the current book, and then I pull all the previous ones out and flip through those as well, focusing on artwork, models, conversions, etc. to get ideas to make my army unique, including some throwbacks as well as more recent stuff. If I have the White Dwarf issues from when those Codexes were released I check them as well.

My opinion is that current books are not balanced any more or less against contemporary codexes than 3rd edition ones were against their contemporaries. Although the internet is available now with tons of other people's models, there wasn't as much back then. At the time, more non-studio stuff in the books was more helpful than it would be now. On the other hand, White Dwarf should be packed full of it like it used to be, and hopefully the changes to White Dwarf will head in that direction.

One thing I really do miss are the variant lists, like in the Craftworld Eldar and Armageddon and Eye of Terror books. The more lists that were available, the more options people had to customize the way their army played. Making different things count as troops in the current edition somewhat leads to that, but can't possible create the variety that used to exist. Competitive players complained them out of existence, whereas a better solution would probably have been to create a list of Competition-approved lists for tournaments and have the rest be for casual play only (this existed, but inconsistencies between independent tournaments contributed to the madness). Imagine if the Black Guardian army was still useable!

[DarkLink]

3rd edition codices were terrible, they were, what, ten pags long with half a page of fluff mixed throughout. I miss Andy Chambers a bit, but beyond that I prefer the 5th ed codices even if some of the fluff is dubious.

I agree. The Black Library can handle the fluff, while the quality of the rules make or break a codex. I won't even be disappointing if they cut a lot of the fluff out of the codices and just kept the rules, personally (though I'm not saying they should do that). Extra fluff would just mean Black Library and, oh, hey, there's some actual content to put into White Dwarf.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Yeah, it would be a lot easier from a gameplay perspective if just the rules were in a dex. Let white dwarf show off the paintschemes and other hobby-related aspects, and let BL handle fluff.

That way, you get what you want without paying for something you don't want.

[murrburger]

Man, **** third edition. It took all the interesting second edition fluff, and stripped it bare. It gave us Necrons, Tau, Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, (No vehicle upgrades lol) and that mess of a Chaos book. Not to mention Space Marines+.

Honestly, the only things that have been bad about the 5th edition books is Cruddance. Give me Ward over that guy any day.

[Morgan Darkstar]

OT, I wish all the ward & cruddace haters would give it a rest.

The IG codex is good IMO, and the nid codex is fun to play.

"NOTE" (fun does not = auto win.) so yes you have to work at it. :p

[murrburger]

Ward makes balanced books, if not boring ones. With the exception of Fantasy. (No one talk about 7th edition O&G vs Daemons) Honestly, I may be in the small minority that likes his fluff. Warhammer isn't meant to be taken seriously, anyways.

Cruddance made the Guard book with many 'no brainer' choices, and the Tyranid book with units that don't really work, and poor FOC. I understand he's new as an author, so I give him a little bit of slack.

[Master Bryss]

Fuzz, I think you're missing the real point here. Yes, we have suffered a terrible loss here, and it may seem insignificant to you, but I lost a dear friend with this new Codex 'upgrade' that we shall never see the like of again.

Goodbye Inquisitorial Storm Trooper. Your AP5 Lasgun, your pre-measure powers and your cheap special weapon access utility will live on forever in out hearts, and in my book of house rules.

[DarkLink]

Goodbye Inquisitorial Storm Trooper. Your AP5 Lasgun, your pre-measure powers and your cheap special weapon access utility will live on forever in out hearts, and in my book of house rules.

I don't know if you can call the old Storm Troopers 'cheap', since not only can you fit a third meltagun now but you can get a triple melta unit for 82pts, while the old ISTs were 120 minimum.

[Myu]

Sucks so many people seem not to like the old GK fluff, I thought it was awesome, pictures too for that matter.

Very serious, grim dark and epic.

[Gir]

Cruddance made the Guard book with many 'no brainer' choices, and the Tyranid book with units that don't really work, and poor FOC. I understand he's new as an author, so I give him a little bit of slack.

And don't forget the new Sisters dex.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I sort of like parts from all 5 editions funnily enough.

I like the lost factions of Rogue Trader - Slann, squats (sorry about the clock again), genestealer cults, ENSLAVERS, zoats. Also, while I prefer the more serious tone of later editions, I could appreciate the sense of humour of RT as it's own entity. Also, how can you not like those original plastic RT001 marines? they rocked! I also liked the focus of Eldar back then with the Corsair fleets (anyone remember Eldritch Raiders? Prince Uriel's Raiders?). Oh and then theres those awesome awesome Slaves of darkness/lost and the damned chaos books!! still the best source of chaos backround IMO.

I like the nostalgia of 2nd edition. The 2nd ed necrons were really fierce and the minimal feel of them was awesome. Eldar felt more dangerous to me back then, much more lethal - I still prize my 2nd ed eldar codex complete with it's Exodites (remember them?). 2nd Ed also had it's own judge-dredd ripoffs in the form of the Arbites (awesome!). The chaos book was awesome too, so much variety.

I LIKED the necron codex of 3rd ed, which are really one of the few more innovative factions in the game really, most are just ripped off from Dune, starship troopers or Aliens, at least necrons combined a number of things (terminator, Dr who's cybermen, HP Lovecraft and a little Olaf Stapledon!) and I also liked the eye of terror and armageddon books too - with their variant lists like 13th company and lost and the damned. Lots of fun. I also liked the tau too, but then I don't mind anime either and thought the kroot were pretty awesome.

4th is harder to pin down, but I liked the move of daemons having their own codex as it was something I felt they should of done anyway. The black templar codex was interesting and both of these factions were something a little new and I like new things, even if they arent my cuppa-tea.

5th ? well I LOVE the tyranid codex....FOR THE BACKROUND, don't have a heart attack guys! it mentions so many minor xeno races it's like the excitement I got from reading Xenology. Almost. Also, Ulumeathic league and demiurg references FTW! I think 5th has given the previously boring space marine armies like blood angels and space wolves much needed diversity - justifying them more, and I dug the stuff like the sanguinary guard. The Dark Eldar codex was the most exciting book to read since 3rd ed necrons for me - I don't collect DE but damn that book rules.


So yeah, I like different things from all of the editions :D

I think any mythology that's gone through so many changes is going to INCREASINGLY have more and more divided opinions - It's a lot like Dr who in that respect, a lot of history, a lot of changes and a lot of different feelings and atmospheres which will appeal to others, and I think it's ok to be passionate about that when you've been into it for so long and invested so much time into it - more so if you grew up with them like I have, it makes sense when you see something you don't like you are more vocal about it - I don't think it's really whining, it's just passion and a want for soething you care about to be as good as it can - but that is of course subjective too. You'll never get me to watch 2005+ dr who episodes, and you'll never get me to like Orks, I'm always going to like enslavers/necrons and I'm always going to think sylvester mccoy and william hartnell kick ***.

It's a multi-generation thing, which is quite rare really - but somehow endearing and enduring.

[murrburger]

I haven't read the Sisters book yet. :p

Cheers to that, though, Dark Eldar is an awesome book.