Drop Pod tactic help

[wolflold]

Hey,

I'm building a new space marine army and i want i to be a siege/drop pod army. But i'm having trouble with the drop pod tactics! For now im fielding:

Librarian - the 5++ power and flamer power
Stern guard (5) - heavy flamer, 2x combi-melta, power weapon
*Drop pod
Dreadnought - multi-melta
*Drop pod
Tactiacal Sq (10) - multi-melta, meltagun, power fist
*Drop pod
Tactiacal Sq (10) - lascannnon, flamer, power weapon
Vindicator - Siege Shield
total 1000

On turn 1 i deploy dread + stern and libi, vindicator hugs cover (if possible) and tactical sq with lascannon takes up position in the back, tactical sq in drop pod in reserve ofc. Dread and stern kill vehicles, libi gives stern 5++ save to increase survivability or flames unit in cover. Nou the problem is the if my oppenent sees drop pods he keeps almost everything in reserve, so i have nothing to shoot, and he trapmles over my DS units. I realy like the idea of a siege/drop pod army but can't raly get it to work. Do you guys have any tips suggentions? Im gonna expend this army to 1700, and kantor is a must ;).

[Demonus]

I was just thinking yesterday about people reserving their armies against drop pods, and what to do to counter that or be effective.

What about dropping your pods down close to your opponents deployment zone, and disembarking on your side. This will give you cover saves from anything coming in, and deny him/her deployment area, as he cannot move through your troops (unless he is a skimmer), and units that cannot be deployed are destroyed.

I saw a funny article about a guy that had a line of Kroot along his opponents table edge. The opponent was playing White Scars, and reserved everything. He couldnt bring a model onto the board and lost.

[thecactusman17]

Remember to leave your Drop Pods doors movable, so you can leave panels up selectively in order to minimize his LOS while maximizing your own.

[Kawauso]

Remember to leave your Drop Pods doors movable, so you can leave panels up selectively in order to minimize his LOS while maximizing your own.

That in no way sounds like a legitimate tactic.

[whargoul666]

Boooo!

It's not.

[blackarmchair]

Remember to leave your Drop Pods doors movable, so you can leave panels up selectively in order to minimize his LOS while maximizing your own.

There's a whole thread about this in the rules section. It's acceptable from a rules standpoint in some codexes but also a very unfriendly thing to do. I wouldn't recommend doing it even if it is justifiable.

[gwensdad]

Well, as long as this thread exists can I ask about the whole DA "empty drop pods" thing.
You know, take a drop pod as a dedicated transport, deploy the unit it's assigned to on the table, then drop the empty pod when it's reserve roll comes up.
Is there an easy to point to line that says this is 100% legal? I've seen it done in battle reports but I know I'll get called on it by someone at 'ard boyz this weekend (especially when we may not have a "judge" but take care of things among ourselves.)

[Kawauso]

I don't know the rule verbatim, but there is a rule that says a unit which takes a dedicated transport does not have to be deployed in it.

So yeah, it's weird having empty pods slam down, but the rules support it. Unlike opening/closing drop pod doors to maximize cover to your advantage (just because there aren't rules about it doesn't mean that doing it is acceptable, unless you feel like invoking the Air Bud Clause. which you shouldn't. because then no one will want to play with you).

[w7west]

Troops do not need to start the game in their transport. Transport and troop can function separately if you wish, allowing you to throw empty pods on objectives while your troops do their own thing. This isn't necessarily a good idea but works well if you are not planning on moving a certain squad very far from your board edge.

Something that I have seen good drop pod armies do is focus on cutting off squads from support. The way you can do this is locate a spot on the map where your opponent is somewhat confined for space. Good options are narrow passes where his vehicles are trying to advance through or some other type of impassible terrain forcing them to bottleneck through a certain point. If you are playing bols netlist style (no los blocking terrain) then try to use their vehicles as los blockers for their support weapons.

Once you find a good spot where movement is somewhat confined, you can then pod in between the sternguard units (or whatever was leading their spearhead so to speak) and the juicy troops which he wished to guard with his front squad. Done correctly you should be cutting off significant support elements from getting to the troops, while your own squads are turning everything inside your pod area into a deathtrap.

Use your pods to entrap that which you wish to die, and cut it off from support. Once this is done your semicircle of pods also functions as a very nice castle that will prove hard to retake for most armies. The only issue with doing this is eventually you may need to leave the safety of your cleared landing zone to grab a second objective. It is best to have seperate units that do this, but if you need to venture out at least everything has a 3+ save so you should have enough bodies to get to where you need to be.

[Da Gargoyle]

Why is the use of the drop pods to restrict line of sight so bad? As I understand it, closing the ramps restricts line of sight but also stops the pod from firing its own weaponry which is inside it after all. So there is a penalty for the tactic. That tactic does not seem any worse to me than a lad blasting a rhino into the centre of the board to achieve the same thing.

[Rapture]

Totally dude. Because losing those 2 storm bolter shots is a real sacrifice.

[w7west]

If you are going to do that take it one step further and open the door when you want los then close it up when it no longer benefits you. The person is never going to play you again anyway so you might as well win the game. There is no rule saying you can't which seems to be the primary argument so far.

[Kawauso]

There is no rule saying you can't which seems to be the primary argument so far.

Again, the Air Bud Clause.
There's no rule saying dogs -can't- play basketball...

[BlindGunn]

If you are going to do that take it one step further and open the door when you want los then close it up when it no longer benefits you. The person is never going to play you again anyway so you might as well win the game. There is no rule saying you can't which seems to be the primary argument so far.

My argument to this would be that a Drop Pod, once landed, counts as an immobile vehicle.

As such - it cannot move! :cool:

But I agree - this is where RAW and RAI will forever fight on. My favorite was the discussion that there was no rule called "One Shot", so that means DE Fighters can fire up to 4 missiles every turn...

Good way to find yourself alone in a gaming room.

[Da Gargoyle]

Again, the Air Bud Clause.
There's no rule saying dogs -can't- play basketball...

Actually there is. Also, with my limited knowledge of the game, they don't have hands to drible which means they would turn over all the time :D

[pathwinder14]

It does not matter wether the doors are up or down. You cannot shoot through a model.

[pathwinder14]

Do you guys have any tips suggentions? Im gonna expend this army to 1700, and kantor is a must ;).

Reserves states you have to declare which models are with which models when you reserve. I/.E. my character is reserved with this unit, my tac squad is reserved apart from their drop pod, etc. You do not have to start a game with a unit in it's dedicated transport so it is perfectly legal (and common) to reserve a unit and it's drop pod seperately.

To make a Drop Pod army surviveable when an opponent reserves everything in response, you have 3 choices.
A. Reserve only your drop pods. Set up your army on the table and wait for the enemy reserves. You then will have to walk/run across the board while bringing in your drop pods as portable walls.

B. Reserve your units and Drop pods seperately and deploy them as seperate units, once again walking your units across the board while bringing in your drop pods in as portable walls.

C. Bring in drop pod units using normal reserves, not Drop Pod Assault. The rules for Drop Pod Assault state you may bring in half your drop pods rounding up on turn one. It does not state you have to.

The question is, how effective is your army if it had to foot slog it across the board against a reserved enemy army?

[pathwinder14]

Do you guys have any tips suggentions? Im gonna expend this army to 1700, and kantor is a must ;).

Reserves states you have to declare which models are with which models when you reserve. I/.E. my character is reserved with this unit, my tac squad is reserved apart from their drop pod, etc. You do not have to start a game with a unit in it's dedicated transport so it is perfectly legal (and common) to reserve a unit and it's drop pod seperately.

To make a Drop Pod army surviveable when an opponent reserves everything in response, you have 3 choices.
A. Reserve only your drop pods. Set up your army on the table and wait for the enemy reserves. You then will have to walk/run across the board while bringing in your drop pods as portable walls.

B. Reserve your units and Drop pods seperately and deploy them as seperate units, once again walking your units across the board while bringing in your drop pods in as portable walls.

C. Bring in drop pods using normal reserves, not Drop Pod Assault. The rules for Drop Pod Assault state you may bring in half your drop pods rounding up on turn one. It does not state you have to.

The question is, how effective is your army if it had to foot slog it across the board against a reserved enemy army?

[Wildeybeast]

Well, as long as this thread exists can I ask about the whole DA "empty drop pods" thing.
You know, take a drop pod as a dedicated transport, deploy the unit it's assigned to on the table, then drop the empty pod when it's reserve roll comes up.
Is there an easy to point to line that says this is 100% legal? I've seen it done in battle reports but I know I'll get called on it by someone at 'ard boyz this weekend (especially when we may not have a "judge" but take care of things among ourselves.)

Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad
inside? (p69)
A: Yes you can.

Space Marines FAQ.

Also, for the benefit of pathfinder, you can shoot through models. P21 makes clear that interveneing models (firend or foe) merely provide a 4+ cover up save. The only restriction is on line of sight - if you can see it you can shoot. So it does indeed make a difference whether the doors are up or down. But I'm, not going to rake that up again here, as had already been mentioned there is a whole thread on it elsewhere.

[Morgan Darkstar]

It does not matter wether the doors are up or down. You cannot shoot through a model.

"see post above. Wildeybeast put it far better than i could"


C. Bring in drop pod units using normal reserves, not Drop Pod Assault. The rules for Drop Pod Assault state you maybring in half your drop pods rounding up on turn one. It does not state you haveto.

Incorrect, the drop pod assault rule states you MUST choose half your drop pods to arrive on the first turn

[pathwinder14]

"see post above. Wildeybeast put it far better than i could"



Incorrect, the drop pod assault rule states you MUST choose half your drop pods to arrive on the first turn

Drop Pod Assault:
"Drop pods always enter play using the deep strike rules from the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a "Drop Pod Assault".

I apologize, you are correct. However, nothing states you have to make a Drop Pod Assault with your drop pods. You could just reserves them as normal.

[Morgan Darkstar]

I apologize, you are correct. However, nothing states you have to make a Drop Pod Assault with your drop pods. You could just reserves them as normal.

Unfortunatly This,


Drop Pod Assault:
"Drop pods always enter play using the deep strike rules from the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

coupled with This,


At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a "Drop Pod Assault".

makes it quite clear you cannot reserve them normally, remember codex overrides rulebook.

[pathwinder14]

...makes it quite clear you cannot reserve them normally, remember codex overrides rulebook.

I think I see the problem. We are each seeing/reading the phrase "to make a drop pod assault" differently. You are reading that you have to make a drop pod assault with your drop pods. I am reading that if I want to make a drop pod asault I have to choose half rounding up on turn one.

As per the marine rule book:"...At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a "Drop Pod Assault"..."

Let's state this a different way. To make a Drop Pod Assault you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) at the beginning of your first turn. What if I do not want to make a drop pod assault with my Drop Pods? Drop Pod Assault is a deployment option for armies with Drop Pods. It is not a requirement.

[Morgan Darkstar]

I think I see the problem. We are each seeing/reading the phrase "to make a drop pod assault" differently. You are reading that you have to make a drop pod assault with your drop pods. I am reading that if I want to make a drop pod asault I have to choose half rounding up on turn one.

As per the marine rule book:"...At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a "Drop Pod Assault"..."

Let's state this a different way. To make a Drop Pod Assault you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) at the beginning of your first turn. What if I do not want to make a drop pod assault with my Drop Pods? Drop Pod Assault is a deployment option for armies with Drop Pods. It is not a requirement.

Unfortunatly no, Drop Pod Assault is a "special rule" for the unit. You cannot ignore it nor is it optional.

If this was the case you could ignore other special rules on units, for example "Rage" "Fearless" "Slow and Purposeful."

Now we wouldn't want that would we?

[pathwinder14]

Unfortunatly no, Drop Pod Assault is a "special rule" for the unit. You cannot ignore it nor is it optional.

If this was the case you could ignore other special rules on units, for example "Rage" "Fearless" "Slow and Purposeful."

Now we wouldn't want that would we?

(I apologize for this thread being hi-jacked. I'll get back on point.)

What I am saying is that the Dorp Pod assault text can be read in 1 of 2 ways. I cannot vernbalize it for you won't hear me. But I see how it can be rea and emphasis placed on different parts of the sentence to generate a different interpretation.

Once again...As per the marine rule book:"...At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a "Drop Pod Assault"..."

One way reads you must choose your drop pods to make an assault. The other way of reading emphasizes that to make a drop pod assault you have to choose half of your drop pods.

Either way it does not matter.....let's just say you are right. He can still deploy half of the drop pods(rounding up) empty. It accomplishes the same goal. If he is runnning a drop pod army he can reserve his army or set it up and just elect not to deploy in the drop pods, thus giving an alternative deployment when his opponent reserves everything.

[Wildeybeast]

(I apologize for this thread being hi-jacked. I'll get back on point.)

What I am saying is that the Dorp Pod assault text can be read in 1 of 2 ways. I cannot vernbalize it for you won't hear me. But I see how it can be rea and emphasis placed on different parts of the sentence to generate a different interpretation.

Once again...As per the marine rule book:"...At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a "Drop Pod Assault"..."

One way reads you must choose your drop pods to make an assault. The other way of reading emphasizes that to make a drop pod assault you have to choose half of your drop pods.

Either way it does not matter.....let's just say you are right. He can still deploy half of the drop pods(rounding up) empty. It accomplishes the same goal. If he is runnning a drop pod army he can reserve his army or set it up and just elect not to deploy in the drop pods, thus giving an alternative deployment when his opponent reserves everything.

Sorry dude but you are wrong on this. If you read the sentence after the one you keep quoting you will see that it explains how a 'drop pod assult' works. It says:
"Units making adrop pod assault arrive on the player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining drop pods is roled for as normal".

There are not two ways to read this. You must select half your drop pods to make a drop pod assault (which is a special rule). This rule then plays out according to the process just descirbed above. It really is quite clear. If utilising the drop pod assault role was optional, it would say 'you may select up to....'. However you must select them to make an assult which means once you selected them (about which you have no choice) they have to go ahead with it. The wording has (on this occasion at least) been chosen very carefully to make sure that drop pods play in a way in keeping with the background. After all, the first time the enemy knows they are fighting marines is when drop pods start landing on their heads.

[pathwinder14]

Sorry dude but you are wrong on this. If you read the sentence after the one you keep quoting you will see that it explains how a 'drop pod assult' works. It says:
"Units making adrop pod assault arrive on the player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining drop pods is roled for as normal".

There are not two ways to read this. You must select half your drop pods to make a drop pod assault (which is a special rule). This rule then plays out according to the process just descirbed above. It really is quite clear. If utilising the drop pod assault role was optional, it would say 'you may select up to....'. However you must select them to make an assult which means once you selected them (about which you have no choice) they have to go ahead with it. The wording has (on this occasion at least) been chosen very carefully to make sure that drop pods play in a way in keeping with the background. After all, the first time the enemy knows they are fighting marines is when drop pods start landing on their heads.

I understand what you are saying. I simply see an additional way of reading it. Linguistically speaking there ar two ways to emphasize the words "...to make...' in the sentence"At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a "Drop Pod Assault".

That makes the difference here. Ask any English professor or Major they will agree that those two words could be read in 2 different ways. If only I could read aloud and have you hear the words spoken audibly, you could at least hear what I'm trying to say.

If you look at it your way, you're saying that every player that ever takes a Drop Pod has to use Drop Pod assault for deployment. So that single drop pod people take with a tac squad has to be deployed on turn 1? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong. I guess I'll have to call a Battle Bunker for a ruling.

But we are getting off topic. I already acquiesced to the version by Morgan Darkstar as it does not really matter for our purposes here. This topic by wolflold was about viable options for a drop pod army if an opponent reserves everything during deployment. I provided 2 other alternatives to that problem.

[Immortal]

If you use drop pods, half of them come in turn 1. Period.
This rule is worded better in later Space Marine Codices (BA, SW, ect.), but the rule remains unchanged.
Also, I was an English Major. That being said, pulling this ruling is a stretch in my opinion.

~Immortal

[DarkLink]

I think we need to establish the definition of the word 'must'.


Definition of MUST

verbal auxiliary
1
a : be commanded or requested to <you must stop>
b : be urged to : ought by all means to <you must read that book>
2
: be compelled by physical necessity to <one must eat to live> : be required by immediate or future need or purpose to <we must hurry to catch the bus>
3
a : be obliged to : be compelled by social considerations to <I must say you're looking well>
b : be required by law, custom, or moral conscience to <we must obey the rules>

...etc

'Must' means that you do not have a choice. You 'must' use the drop pod assault, which means that half your pods come in turn 1. There are no options, there are not 'alternative' ways to read the rule. You 'must' use the drop pod assault. It cannot be stated more clearly than that.



And in case you missed it the first few times;):
"...you MUST choose half of your Drop Pods...

[pathwinder14]

You must turn on your blinker on to make a left turn.

You must open the door to go outside.

You must stand to walk.

Do I have to make a left turn, go outside, or stand? No. That's why I was centering on the words "...to make..." They are the crux of the rule. Please look again.

Caveat...if later codecies have a clarification, will someeone please post it?

[jad4400]

I'm new to 40k (I still have to play a couple game to get a feel for it and figure out what kind of army I want). I have actually been looking at using a 1500 point marine drop pod assault force using a dreadnaught/ Master of the Forge combination. In general I like the idea of being able to strike in from anywhere on the board with massive space pods, something about it seems really cool and visceral.

[schulzed]

When I first started Space Marines, I wanted to do a drop pod army as well. I moved away from the idea, mostly because I found it wasn't effective. You can make it work, but a rhino does have advantages. But, forget that.

The biggest factor in playing drop pods that I've noticed is aggression. Accept that things will die, but hit hard the turn you drop. If you can cause enough damage, the opponent might not be able to hit back, or, whenever the rest of your pods arrive, they can clean up whats left. I occasionally run a dread in a drop pod, and use him as a suicide unit. I drop him in, dangerously close to something (usually troops or a tank). Have him melta a tank, which alone can almost make up the points. Then, the opponent needs to kill it, or he causes damage. It gives me some help by drawing fire from the rest of my army. I guess what I'm getting at is accept loses. "Earning back points" isn't the only way to judge a unit's usefulness.

[papa smurf]

I have a space marine Drop Pod army, and it's been pretty successful for me. However, as mentioned before, successful =/= surviving. Your drop-podded units will probably die messily, but they will do a lot of damage to the units that they drop by.

That leaves us with the problem of armies reserving to counter you. There are a few things you can do to try and survive this.

- For one, you don't necessarily have to drop-pod into your enemy's deployment zone if there's no one to shoot. deploy close to your forces, have some backup near your drop-pod forces.

- make sure drop pods are between the enemy and your drop pod troops. Whether or not you do the open/close door thing in the previous arguments (I tend to just open what I can, and leave it at that) Your drop pods can still create cover for your otherwise exposed troops.

- drop near cover. Your drop pods have the internal guidance system (I forget the exact name), so if there's nothing to shoot at, drop your models close they can run into cover. I view it in a half glass full kind of way, If there's no one in my way, I can advance on foot into cover without opposition.

- One specifically for your dreadnought: Deploy smoke if there is nothing to shoot at. That way when the enemy comes in guns a-blazing, your dread actually has some decent protection, even out in the open.

- Have other things in reserve that can benefit from pods on the ground. Think deep striking assault squads, termies, additional drop pods, etc. I usually try and include at least one homing beacon.

- Last but not least, have some supporting elements or two that can zoom in and help out drop pod forces. Whether it is a few land speeders or a squad in a rhino, something that can come in and back up those drop-podders quickly can help if they are in a tight situation.

Hopefully this helps you out some, I run drop pods all the time and my opponents don't always reserve to counter it, but when they do I've found these tactics to help me out some. Not game-winning tactics mind you, but they do at least keep me in the game, or make the game close. I hope these can help you out some! :D

[Order_from_Chaos]

If they are deploying first and you know that they are keeping units in reserve than just deploy two of your drop pod units regularly and drop the pods in their deployment zone or on objectives, that way your opponent doesnt get to isolate your units, since they are in your deployment zone supporting eachother, and your opponent has to waste shots to kill a empty drop pod just to be able to claim an objective. Meanwhile your shooting forces them to come to you and then you can drop pod whichever unit was in reserves where they are needed.

Thats what I would do anyways lol

Cheers