Help against the Knights!

[The Twilight Fade]

I've been playing 40k for a few years now and recently got into Eldar, now I have been having some reasonable success with them as i've found their mech to be quite durable especially when fortuned but grey knights just bring the hammer down with firepower cos what the rifleman dreads dont kill the psycannons make mince out of.

Now it may just be me and there may be something i'm doing wrong but mech doesn't hold up against them and in my experience "foot-dar" isn't durable enough to shrug off so much stormbolter fire.

Are there any tactics that you guys have been using that can help a failing Eldar player out, Strong points against are runes of warding just cos they screw around with their ability to pass tests but other than that I just find that there is too much anti-infantry and anti-mech automatically built in to the army that psychic tests aren't needed.

Any help would be much appreciated!!

[Denied]

So I am a former Eldar, current Grey Knights player :-P Things I would make sure of when playing GK your first HQ should always be Eldrad (honestly I don't think there is a Eldar list that doesn't have this). He comes pre equipped with the Runes of Warding and witnessing. Runes of Warding are essential when attacking Grey Knights it greatly increases their chance to fail Fortitude, hammerhand, and forceweapon activation. Aside from that I would just work on my target focus. I assume you are running Wave serpents loaded with Dire Avengers and doing the classic dancy Eldar thing of run up shoot up run away. The only suggestions I have is to bring as many Bright lances as possible to pop open any Rhinos/ Razorbacks as they will be the main transports used and to put hurt on the psifile dreads.

I mean Grey Knights are just Marines with a few minor tweaks most of which have to do with their psychic powers. if you negate their Fortitude saves and force them out of their vehicles they are squishy.

[The Twilight Fade]

Eldrad is nearly always in my lists anyways, if i'm running a farseer in general then I always make points for him unless i'm running a jetbike council. I mean the main problem I was having is that most eldar shooting from the troops is 12" - 24" which is fine normally but that drops me in to the grey knights kill zone aswell and they just seem so much better at it!!

Guess its just a matter of trial and error with somethings I guess but have you had any luck with eldar against knights yet Denied??

[fuzzbuket]

if he isnt running a dreadkingt/LR/SR heavy build how about a wraithlord? S4 knights cant harm him much but he could tie up a squad of paladins for a while, wraithguard are a good choice too if you have the points 2+ to kill ANYTHING (inc dreadknights) and 20pts cheaper than paladins: whats not to love?

and a tactic from the old GW website: 3 war walkers each with twin scatter lasers, throw in a farseer (or elrad) and well: 24 S6 shots (and at 36' out of range of the massed S5 that will shread them) and with re- rolls to hit and wound whats not to love! just keep them 36' away and the knights will get minced!

or try something new? rubber hawks could be fun if hes running knights on foot (especialy if they are clustered together) or how about nightspinners? if the knights are on foot you could pair some nightspinners with bikes and outmanuver them or with spiders and shoot and warp away, with the knights getting shredded via the nightspinners web?

just have your eldars being fast and in sync.

-fuzz

[Anggul]

I wouldn't bother trying to fight them in close combat with anything but Howling Banshees, and that's only because of their banshee masks. Seriously, halberds exist to put a massive middle finger up at both kinds of Eldar and Blood Angels, so I think one of the best threats against them are Dark Reapers as unlike most armies the Grey Knights don't have much really long-ranged firepower to deal with them other than the psiflemen dreads who will be busy with your tanks. Point the exarch at them and watch the power-armoured knights die.

Fire Prisms are good for a laugh against paladins.

I normally love Dire Avengers, but Grey Knights do it at 24" and are much tougher and can fight in combat too.

Night Spinners would be interesting to slow them down so that you can mince them at long range without too much retribution.

[celestialatc]

Night Spinners would be interesting to slow them down so that you can mince them at long range without too much retribution.

Urrgghh the night spinners are so annoying! Especially when you are trying to move your psycannons into range and you have to move. It's a annoying tank that will make it points up in kill IMO. It's also one of the first things I would try and take out with my psyrifle dreads if I get turn one and the night spinner is on the board.

[Image]

Winning a firefight against GK with Eldar utilizes the same risk as when fighting against regular SM. They die like any other SM, so when you shoot at something, isolate it and kill it.

In my opinion, Wave Serpents are key against GK as it protects you from the Vindicare assassin's vehicle killing shot, it's fast, and is pretty strong against Psycannons. You can outrange your opponent with Warwalkers with Scatter Lasers. Guide them and doom your target and you should kill whatever you're shooting at.

Fire Dragons are essential if you want to pop their LRs or Paladins (but I haven't seen too many paladin squads, mostly purifiers). It's business as usual with Eldar against GK just with a bit more risk if you don't finish off your target.

As an aside, Wraithlords are strong against GK unless they have their daemon hammers. Being unhurt by S4 means those halberds mean less unless they want to risk a perils check with Runes of Warding. Granted, they're slow and will probably eat the psycannon shots in that case, but Wraithlords with just swords is cheap and they're durable.

Should be a challenging fight either way, just recognize GK have a fair number of weaknesses against Eldar, given that they all want to cast psychic powers. Eldar, certainly, also have weaknesses against GK but that's what makes it such a fun fight. :)

[DarkLink]

Mechdar is about the only way to go. Relying on good armor, cover, Fortune and Runes to block Fortitude is probably the safest bet. Anything else will just get storm boltered to death, or chopped to death.


Fire Dragons are pretty obvious, because they're one of the best units that Eldar have.


Every GK player who deserves to win will have a Hammer in their units, so Wraithlords are a no-go. As a GK player, I would love to face such a slow, vulnerable unit compared to another stupid Eldar skimmer.




I do want to clarify something, though. Runes of Warding will only have any significant effect on GK vehicles using Fortitude. Virtually every other GK psychic power is used in CC (Sanctuary, Hammerhand, Force Weapons, Quickening, Might of Titan), and not everyone takes a Librarian. Shrouding is the only other real loss.

GKs do not rely on their psychic powers to beat Eldar (with the sole exception of Fortitude). They already wound on 3's with power weapons, and Eldar don't do mobs that can stand up to GKs either. Eldar rely on Runes of Warding to save themselves from GKs. There's a bit of a difference there. Don't assume that just because the GK player can't get his psychic powers off that the GKs will suddenly turn tail.

[Tynskel]

wait, what? Runes of Warding don't work during assault phase?

[celestialatc]

Pretty sure they do (unless there is an FAQ I don't know about). Runes of Warding work on every psychic test. But that is why our Lord Ward gave Grey Knights Halberds and Psycannons....we can beat you without our psychic tests!

[DarkLink]

No, I mean that GKs don't care if you can block Hammerhand. We don't need it. We already have power weapons and wound on 3's, if you assault us with anything other than Howling Banshees, Harlequins or the Avatar you're not going to be in good shape, Hammerhand or no. It's really not that big of a deal for us. Eldar just go from being completely screwed in CC to moderately screwed in CC.


And since psycannons don't rely on psychic powers...





Don't get me wrong, Runes is an absolute must. But don't think that the GK player is suddenly intimidated just because he can't get his psychic powers off reliably.

[plawolf]

Mech Eldar's ability to compete against Grey Knights depend on their ability to quickly take out the psyrifle dreads.

Using suicide squads if you have to, but take them out ASAP, and as soon as they are dead, mechdar will enjoy a significant tactical advantage in all objective games.

GK are an expensive army, so their force will be a small one, and will tend to try and cluster together for mutal support.

If its an objective game, just go sit on more objectives and plink away with 24"+ guns with impunity.

As soon as you force the GKs to split up to try and grab objectives, you can use your superior mobility to gain local superiority and pick him apart piece meal.

If you are not playing objectives, you are a bit screwed, but you can still sit back outside of stormbolter and pscyannon range and just take pot shots.

Not very fun for you, but you can take heart in that as frustrating as it is for you, it will be much more annoying for the GK player, and there is a chance he will make mistakes trying to take the fight to you.

Be patient and wait for your opportunities and do not over-extend yourself trying to force an opening. When you get your chance, fully commit and exploit it for all its worth.

That last part takes skill and experience, and you will just have to put in the tabletime to be able to spot them when they come up.

[DarkLink]

Mech Eldar's ability to compete against Grey Knights depend on their ability to quickly take out the psyrifle dreads.

Exactly, though you want to stop psycannons as well. Don't think you can run from their 30" threat range for very long. But psyrifle dreads are a higher priority, and probably easier targets as well.



Anyways, I make a big deal about the Runes of Warding because I keep hearing people say "but Eldar are so good against GKs because of Runes". No, no they aren't, at least not because of that. GKs still wound on 3's with power weapons, and since most eldar units are relatively small that is still going to kill eldar just fine, Hammerhand or no.

On the other hand, the shootout between psycannons, psyrifle dreads and eldar vehicles is everything. That is where eldar will win or lose the game, not because they can block some psychic powers that aren't really very important in this matchup anyways (with the exception of Fortitude and the Shrouding).

[plawolf]

Exactly, though you want to stop psycannons as well. Don't think you can run from their 30" threat range for very long. But psyrifle dreads are a higher priority, and probably easier targets as well.

What you want and what you can realistically expect to achieve are seldom if ever the same thing.

Unless Eldar can take Vindicares by the squad, they are not going to be stopping GK psycannons till the end of the game if they manage it at all, since psycannons are often the last to go from a squad, so if you remove all GK pscyannons, chances are you have removed all GK models.

With superior mobility, you can do what GKs do not want to do - split up.

If you send your army off in different directions but all stay in weapons range no matter where he moves to(obviously while still staying outside of stormbolter range), you make him choose between staying together or only being able to get at one of your squads while eating fire from the rest of your army.

If he splits up, that gives you the chance to use your superior mobility to gain local dominance and take him apart piecemeal.

If he stays together, take pop shots and sit on more objectives.

[chicop76]

Scorpions can also deal with Grey Knight strike teams as well.

Heck a fortuned harliquin squad with eldrad would tear up anything the knights have. Through in doom on the squad you're assaulting then you're doing good.

Seeing an all pathfinder army costing almost the same as a greyknight would do really well, also several dark reapers would be nice.

3 squads of wave serpent fire dragons could tear up anything as well. With doom and guide it would be easy for them to wipe out a squad.

Eldar have a lot of tools to deal with the Grey Knights and may be a better army because of their tools. I wouldn't say it would be an auto win, but I would be slightly surprised if the knights win against a good Eldar Player with a good list.

[DarkLink]

Unless Eldar can take Vindicares by the squad, they are not going to be stopping GK psycannons till the end of the game if they manage it at all, since psycannons are often the last to go from a squad, so if you remove all GK pscyannons, chances are you have removed all GK models.

Yeah, kinda sucks to be Eldar then, doesn't it:p.



With superior mobility, you can do what GKs do not want to do - split up.


The tough thing about this is that GKs can stay in the middle of the board and still have the range to shoot almost anything on the board. And then there are psyrifle Dreads.

You do, however, avoid combat in this case, which is mostly good for Eldar. Most Eldar units fold in CC against GKs, and the rest rely heavily on the charge. And since Eldar lack assault vehicles and GKs have storm bolters, that's a big problem. Harlequins with Veil of Tears is your best bet, combined with avoiding CC altogether.

[chicop76]

Yeah, kinda sucks to be Eldar then, doesn't it:p.



The tough thing about this is that GKs can stay in the middle of the board and still have the range to shoot almost anything on the board. And then there are psyrifle Dreads.

You do, however, avoid combat in this case, which is mostly good for Eldar. Most Eldar units fold in CC against GKs, and the rest rely heavily on the charge. And since Eldar lack assault vehicles and GKs have storm bolters, that's a big problem. Harlequins with Veil of Tears is your best bet, combined with avoiding CC altogether.

They can't take Vindicare's by the squad, but they can take Pathfinders, Fire Dragons and Darkreapers by the squad. Eldar have enough ranged and transport jump out shooting to deal with most of the Knight codex.

Depends on what the Eldar brings in CC. Harlequins will go down to purifiers and terminators even with doom, which -4 and hoods make doom slightly less reliable. Eldar seer council with Eldrad is still very scarry and effective. The wounding on 2s with enhance hitting on 3s or 4s the unit can force the greyknights to fail saves. Trying to get past re rollable 4+ and 3+ invulnerable saves helps if the grey knights go first.

I've seen Harlequin wraith wall armies do well. I don't think it would really work well against the knights. Although toughness 6 with a re rollable 3/4/5 saves will be hard for the knights to get through.

[Anggul]

Dark Reapers help.

Grey Knights spend more time on foot than most marines to take advantage of their firepower. The old reaper exarch with a couple of friends will wipe them off the board a squad at a time. Fire dragons are, as usual, great for getting rid of terminators, and especially Paladins. Don't try to out-combat them with anything but Banshees or Harlequins, and even then it probably isn't worth it, just bathe them in high-end long-ranged weaponry. Fire Prisms are handy too, 60" range means you can blast away at the psyfle-dreads and not always risk yourself too much.

I'd say Shining Spears but well... halberds.

[plawolf]

The tough thing about this is that GKs can stay in the middle of the board and still have the range to shoot almost anything on the board. And then there are psyrifle Dreads.

Well I was assuming the Eldar player has managed to take out the psyrifle dreads by that point, since I said they should be the highest priority. If you cannot even manage to silence the 2-3 dreads, then you might as pack it in and go home to draw up a new list.

If you scatter a few objectives to the far corners, you can safely sit on them and take pop shots all day long from outside of 24". Even if the Knights holds more objectives than you for most of the game, you still have a good shot to snatch a last minute win by boosting some squads in late game to contest.

[DarkLink]

Well, one thing eldar lack is quality long range anti-tank. It would probably take a couple turns at least to kill the Dreads, so by the time you got to the rest of the army it would be in position to engage you.


The problem with the eldar codex is most everything is just a bit overpriced, and they don't have very much long range anti tank.


Fire dragons are, as usual, great for getting rid of terminators, and especially Paladins.


Anything involving fire dragons will likely be the GK player's top priority. He'll use his other units to screen his Paladins, and as soon as the fire dragons expose themselves they will die.



Don't try to out-combat them with anything but Banshees or Harlequins, and even then it probably isn't worth it, just bathe them in high-end long-ranged weaponry.

And banshees can be stormboltered pretty easily. Take them in a serpent, rush them up and hope the GK player doesn't blow it up before you can disembark next turn and assault. Not ideal, but your options are limited.



Fire Prisms are handy too, 60" range means you can blast away at the psyfle-dreads and not always risk yourself too much.

A well deployed Psyrifle Dread can shoot anything on the board, so you'll be lucky to be out of range. So the question becomes whether or not the Prism is better anti-tank than the Falcon.

[chicop76]

Well, one thing eldar lack is quality long range anti-tank. It would probably take a couple turns at least to kill the Dreads, so by the time you got to the rest of the army it would be in position to engage you.


The problem with the eldar codex is most everything is just a bit overpriced, and they don't have very much long range anti tank.



Anything involving fire dragons will likely be the GK player's top priority. He'll use his other units to screen his Paladins, and as soon as the fire dragons expose themselves they will die.



And banshees can be stormboltered pretty easily. Take them in a serpent, rush them up and hope the GK player doesn't blow it up before you can disembark next turn and assault. Not ideal, but your options are limited.



A well deployed Psyrifle Dread can shoot anything on the board, so you'll be lucky to be out of range. So the question becomes whether or not the Prism is better anti-tank than the Falcon.

Scorpions and Harlequins would make for metteroptions then banshees.

Pulling out the block of cheese the bike seer council can easily take out a dreadnought. Str 9 ranged an close combat attacks with fortune maes the squad hard to kill and capable of downing a dreadnought.

If your space marines screening your terms then a few shots with pathfinders and reapers will easily remove said screen. If blocked by a vehicle that's what eldar str 8-9 weapons are for.

Other options, which the eldar have many is to take a small bike squad with a warlock. The warlock on the bike can move 12" and throw a spear 12", with the 6" assault move I don't see how you're not throwing a singing spear on turn two and possibly turn 1. Conceal or Embroden would be a good option for the squad and it can score. I would take a cannon top pop rhinos and razor backs on the first turn of shooting.

A fotuned Avatar is very hard to kill and either by shooting or close combat can play havok on anything.

I can see Nids having problems, but Eldar really shouldn't have a problem with Grey Knights in general, the same goes for Dark Eldar.

With the prisom or falcon it will be debated till the end of time. The same ratinality that drives you to pick a rifle dread should be the same to pick a falcon and for a few pts more make it basically like a venerable dreadnought.

[w7west]

Try this out vs the knights (if you have the models ofc):

Falcon w/ holofields, stones, your choice of weapon loadout (not important)
-inside rides eldrad and 5 fire dragons

So Eldrad in a falcon with dragons who cares?

Stick a 3 man viper squad on each side loaded with cannons+scats

For under 1k points you get 42 str 6 shots that you can guide each turn, plus a transport (falcon) that gk really aren't ever going to be able to break (fortune always + turbo)

[Demonus]

yeah but if you turboboost, your falcon cannot fire, and your vypers wont be in range next round to get guided will they?

[DarkLink]

Pulling out the block of cheese the bike seer council can easily take out a dreadnought. Str 9 ranged an close combat attacks with fortune maes the squad hard to kill and capable of downing a dreadnought.

Well, without fortune seer councils fall to storm bolter fire easily, so if the Gks take a psychic hood...

And honestly even with fortune I'm pretty sure a decent GK army could simply torrent the seer council to death fairly reliably, considering its expense. I don't know if the expense and risk just to kill a Dreadnought is worth it. You could tarpit some of the other Gk units pretty well, too, but other than Strike Squads the GKs will probably win the protracted combat.



If your space marines screening your terms then a few shots with pathfinders and reapers will easily remove said screen. If blocked by a vehicle that's what eldar str 8-9 weapons are for.

Do you play with terrain on your boards:p? But, yes, reapers are pretty good against GKs.



Other options, which the eldar have many is to take a small bike squad with a warlock. The warlock on the bike can move 12" and throw a spear 12", with the 6" assault move I don't see how you're not throwing a singing spear on turn two and possibly turn 1. Conceal or Embroden would be a good option for the squad and it can score. I would take a cannon top pop rhinos and razor backs on the first turn of shooting.

A single bs3 cannon isn't too likely to pop a rhino in one turn, nor is a single bs3 str9 shot, and the GKs can storm bolter your unit to death anyways. You might pop a rhino, but you're spending a lot of points on a sacrificial unit to do so.



A fotuned Avatar is very hard to kill and either by shooting or close combat can play havok on anything.

Grey Knights do get preferred enemy and psykout grenades drop you to I1, and you're kinda left out on your own unless you do footdar. And since footdar isn't mobile enough to run circles around GKs like mechdar then the GKs retain all their advantages and can just shoot you down.

It's not so much that the avatar is bad, because the Avatar is awesome, I'm just not sure how you would effectively fit him into a list to face Grey Knights. He's either left on his own unsupported where he'll die even with Fortune, or you have to build an army that sacrifices most of the Eldar advantages over GKs and try to beat them at their own game.

[chicop76]

Well, without fortune seer councils fall to storm bolter fire easily, so if the Gks take a psychic hood...

And honestly even with fortune I'm pretty sure a decent GK army could simply torrent the seer council to death fairly reliably, considering its expense. I don't know if the expense and risk just to kill a Dreadnought is worth it. You could tarpit some of the other Gk units pretty well, too, but other than Strike Squads the GKs will probably win the protracted combat.



Do you play with terrain on your boards:p? But, yes, reapers are pretty good against GKs.



A single bs3 cannon isn't too likely to pop a rhino in one turn, nor is a single bs3 str9 shot, and the GKs can storm bolter your unit to death anyways. You might pop a rhino, but you're spending a lot of points on a sacrificial unit to do so.



Grey Knights do get preferred enemy and psykout grenades drop you to I1, and you're kinda left out on your own unless you do footdar. And since footdar isn't mobile enough to run circles around GKs like mechdar then the GKs retain all their advantages and can just shoot you down.

It's not so much that the avatar is bad, because the Avatar is awesome, I'm just not sure how you would effectively fit him into a list to face Grey Knights. He's either left on his own unsupported where he'll die even with Fortune, or you have to build an army that sacrifices most of the Eldar advantages over GKs and try to beat them at their own game.

Warlocks if I recall is bs 4 and a small unit of bikes with a warlock is under 150 pts with a singing spear and 5 bikes. I think you can take 3 bikes making the squad much cheaper.

The Dark Reeper Exarch can negate cover saves, so terrain won't really matter much anyway.

Even still an Avatar with fortune and doom is a force to be recon with, but I forget it's not eternal warrioir so it would be a bad ideal to field him and yreil would be a better choice. If the Avatar was it would still do good with fortune and doom backing it up.

[DarkLink]

Warlocks are BS4, and bikes are minimum of 3, with one cannon per 3. So 1 BS4 Str9 shot, and one BS3 cannon, just like I said:p.

And I didn't even realize the Avatar wasn't eternal warrior. I thought he was, in one form or another. If so, that hurts his odds against Grey Knights even more.

[Tynskel]

Even though the avatar isn't eternal warrior, they still trump all in cc for their cost. Unless you through paladins at the avatar, it takes a while to knock one down.

It has always been better to shoot them dead.

[w7west]

yeah but if you turboboost, your falcon cannot fire, and your vypers wont be in range next round to get guided will they?

each viper squadron consists of three vipers. If you can't spread them out to get at least one within fortune/guide range stick to playing marines

edit: also avatar is t6 watch out for those str 12 weapons...

[chicop76]

124 pts for 3 bikes and a warlock with a singing spear and a shuriken cannon. 129 pts if you drop the cannon and add conceal to the squad. I seen 3 units of similiar builds with fortune and guide take down armour pretty well. The units have a threat range of 24" and with the 6" assault move can move back 18" away from a target, and closer to fortune and guide range again. The heavy flame option is a very nice option for anti horde. This build is a good way to get a protected bike warlock on the field and with 30" movement they can be anywhere on the board.