FW Sneak Peak and nothing else

[DrLove42]

Slow week for FW. I've been so used to a new release or 2 every week now

This week...nada

They're now on facebook though

And they offer this as a sneak of something new

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/FW/heavy-mad-gun.jpg

Some new gun for something. The desription refers to it as "heavy mad gun". Looks a bit alien to me.

Also confirming lots of new stuff on show at GD Chicago this weekend

[Morgan Darkstar]

Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought arms Conversion Beamer.

[DrLove42]

Probably a veryg good call there

[wittdooley]

I'll be live blogging during that Seminar tomorrow. I'll make sure to keep you all updated.

[proeliator_legio]

same thought here contemptor class dread arm, which will be good as i got mine in the mail yesterday and went crazy and have it base coated already, after using it in a game thou i can say i still prefer my furioso's over it for my play style but if i could put a conversion beamer on it id change its roll which will be fun.

[SMC]

Don't worry guys. With the number of people here attending Games Day tomorrow I'm sure we'll be able to flood the internet with pictures and video.

*pats camera* soon...soon.

[wittdooley]

Okay kids. Were here. And way too early. Forgot about the time change from eastern to central. So were just chilling in the mcdonalds down the road playing ticket to ride on the iPad. I'll keep you updated throughout the day.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Okay kids. Were here. And way too early. Forgot about the time change from eastern to central. So were just chilling in the mcdonalds down the road playing ticket to ride on the iPad. I'll keep you updated throughout the day.

No updates :( was it realy that quiet this year? :D

[SMC]

http://duskfallsonadeadland.blogspot.com/2011/07/games-day-11-forgeworld-seminar-info.html

I got video of the full seminar and I'm uploading it to Youtube as I type. Its big so maybe tonight, maybe not.

I posted an info dump on my blog, but here's the copy/paste. There's surely things I'm forgetting.(hence the taking of video!)


More Contemptor arms.(Twin Linked Auto Cannon arms, Plasma Cannon, Heavy Conversion Beamer, Mortis Pattern(Typhoon Launchers and Assault Cannons on each arm), Heavy Bolters)
Imperial Armour 11 is set for sale Nov-Dec.(He said Holidays)
Imperial Armour 12 is likely to feature Dark Eldar
More Marine Armor variants to come...
More Marine shoulder pad sets...
More Land Raider Variants(a plasma cannon variant was explicitly mentioned)
They will continue to introduce Special Character models from the Badab War.(A beautiful Techmarine with a conversion beamer was shown off)
A full picture of the huge Dark Eldar skimmer was shown

There were a few rumor confirmations...such as Bran Redmaw being the IA 11 Space wolves special character. Also, he's going to be two models on a 40mm base. This has been floating around for a while, but the speaker said he was redoing the mini and the second "wulfen form" Redmaw was just a wireframe on his desk at the moment.

[Morgan Darkstar]

He shoots, He Scores!

Heavy Conversion Beamer FTW! :D

[SMC]

Yep, you were correct sir. He made a point of distinguishing between a "Heavy Conversion Beamer" and a regular "Conversion Beamer."

So it'll have new rules.

[Morgan Darkstar]

ahem' that was a little un-modest of me "Thinks i may have had a little to much to drink tonight" :rolleyes:

looking forward to the youtube vid, but will have to wait until tomorrow as i am off to bed.

[SMC]

Whats modesty got to do with it? You got it in one guess from a picture of just the tip of the gun. Pretty good imo.

[wittdooley]

Stuff I got from Marc Bedford & Will Hayes:

Not only will there be more Contempor Arms, but they will be doing chapter fancied up Contempors similar to the present dreads.

Bran Redmaw is being sculpted as we speak. Confirming SMC's comment that he will be two minis, one in Terminator armor, one full-out wolfen mode (confirmed by Bedford)

Elysian Veteran Troopers are coming. They look like badass versions of Tau Fire Warriors with familiar Elysian bits.

Eldar Character being sculpted. The wispering shadow, or something like that. It's a shadow spectres special character.

Warhammer Forge Skaven models on display, pending release in September with the book. A beautiful Vermin Lord, and another Hell-pitty type model; Bedford named it, but I didn't write it down.

The Chaos Dwarves flying Taurus model makes the Finecast version they just released look like a toy. It's beautiful.

Jes Goodwin confirmed some big new: Allan Carrasco and Edgar Ramos are now working for GW. They're both incredibly talented former Rackham sculptors.

[SMC]

Stuff I got from Marc Bedford & Will Hayes:

Not only will there be more Contempor Arms, but they will be doing chapter fancied up Contempors similar to the present dreads.

Bran Redmaw is being sculpted as we speak. Confirming SMC's comment that he will be two minis, one in Terminator armor, one full-out wolfen mode (confirmed by Bedford)

Elysian Veteran Troopers are coming. They look like badass versions of Tau Fire Warriors with familiar Elysian bits.

Eldar Character being sculpted. The wispering shadow, or something like that. It's a shadow spectres special character.

Warhammer Forge Skaven models on display, pending release in September with the book. A beautiful Vermin Lord, and another Hell-pitty type model; Bedford named it, but I didn't write it down.

The Chaos Dwarves flying Taurus model makes the Finecast version they just released look like a toy. It's beautiful.

Jes Goodwin confirmed some big new: Allan Carrasco and Edgar Ramos are now working for GW. They're both incredibly talented former Rackham sculptors.

I think..could be wrong...that he said the Shadow Spectre special character was going to be their lost Phoenix Lord.

And he sort of confused me on Bran Redmaw...he said the normal mini was in Runic Armor. Its established in the SW Codex fluff that only Njal has the skill to make Runic Terminator Armor...but he did say that Bran was on a 40mm base. I assumed that had to do with him saying that the Wulfen form was bigger than his normal form and had something to do with a special rule probably involving BTB attacks.

I can't believe I forgot about the Vermin Lord, good call. That thing was really good looking.

First vid uploaded here btw:
http://duskfallsonadeadland.blogspot.com/2011/07/games-day-11-forgeworld-seminar-vids.html

Would you guys prefer I just embed them? I don't usually do that in message boards because I'm a little lazy to custom fit the size so that it doesn't distort the thread I'm posting in. I can understand why folks would prefer to not click to another site when they're already on this one though.

[eldargal]

Must have the Tantalus.

[SMC]

Honestly, I feel spoiled. I play Bran Redmaw's Great Company so IA 11 is going to be awesome. And then IA 12 will bring the goodies to my DE. Not a huge fan of the Reaper, but the Tantulus makes up for it.

I need to attach a Haemy to my wallet so it feels no pain.

[eldargal]

Was there any mention of when the Tamurkhan book would be released, Mr SMC? I've watched the videos and checked your summary and unless I'm being stupid I haven't seen it mentioned.

[SMC]

No, I'm sorry I don't recall a date being mentioned. Although, I did miss a minute or two here and there while switching between devices. I got the impression that the only release date set was for the updated Apocalypse book. Wittdooley might have a better idea?

Of course, Games Day UK is their big show so that might be the likeliest announcement opportunity.

[eldargal]

Drat. Still, IA11 by Christmas will be a nice present. I can't believe no one asked about Eldar in the QetA, damned Marine players.:rolleyes:

Edit: Oh, he said they were desperately trying to get Tamurkhan our for GD UK, so it would September release if that happens.

[eldargal]

Here is the Praetor and Tantalus:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115311&d=1312114651
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115312&d=1312114651

[Wildcard]

Looking awesome <3

Any idea what that weapon is on the IG super heavy? weapon profile, name etc?

[eldargal]

It was hinted that it was anti infantry missile launcher, he said it was for eliminating Tyranid swarms but I wouldn't take it as hard evidence one way or the other.

[david5th]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M270_Multiple_Launch_Rocket_System

I WANT ONE NOW.:)

[wittdooley]

I must have gotten a really good conversation w mark Bedford! Haha. The war hammer forge book went to printers this week. They expect it to be available for sale the first or 2nd week of September.

[fade_74]

The praetor is going to be really cool. I can't wait to see more "real" pictures of it lol. The one Bedford showed was nice firsthand but having a camera shot of a powerpoint slide doesn't do it any justice. Something I don't think I have seen mentioned here is the chaos marine with the conversion beamer. I think it had army specific (don't remember what army) shoulder pads and arms with goofy looking whips, but the arms were separate parts so you could basically change the weapons and shoulder pads out for whatever you wanted. Or snag the beamer for your own master of the forge.

I talked to Mark Bedford right at the beginning of the day. Everyone ran to the FW store...and I was running to see the studio guests lol. We had a nice talk about IA Masterclass (got mine autographed!!!) He said that the second book was forthcoming. It is going to be focused on the techniques that he and Phil S. use. There is going to be a big section on battle dmg. What do different types of weapon dmg look like on different vehicles. Each army has vehicles made of different materials so what does impact dmg look like on that specific type of armor. It should be really exciting stuff for painters. He also said that it was geared toward getting people to paint their stuff instead of allowing it to sit on a shelf lol.

[eldargal]

I didn't buy the previous Masterclass book (three of my brothers have it so I can borrow it:rolleyes:)), but if they include a section on Eldar battle damage I shall buy the second one.

I wish someone had asked if there anymore Eldar vehicles forthcoming.

[Anggul]

Whilst the Tantalus is extremely cool, it raises the massive question of: "If these exist, why isn't the Dais of Destruction one?"

But hey, FW stuff will always be questionable fluff-wise, it still looks cool either way.

[eldargal]

Well, maybe Vect is old school and likes his Raider variant. Actually if FW are smart they should give Vect the option in IA12. They wouldn't even need to put Vect in it, just put a little note in the Tantalus entry 'Make me taken by Adrubael Vect in lieu of a Raider as his Dias of Extremely Expensive Destruction.

[George Labour]

No, I'm sorry I don't recall a date being mentioned. Although, I did miss a minute or two here and there while switching between devices. I got the impression that the only release date set was for the updated Apocalypse book. Wittdooley might have a better idea?

Of course, Games Day UK is their big show so that might be the likeliest announcement opportunity.

Is that an updated forgeworld Apocalypse book, or an updated GW apocalypse book?

[eldargal]

Updated ForgeWorld, to take into account new codices, rules changes, fan feedback etc.

[Achilleron]

Any idea as to what the Tantalus does? My Dark Kin could use a WMD :)

[isotope99]

The tantalus isn't quite there yet for me.

Obviously the details aren't yet clear and it is showing promise but something still feels a bit wrong about the proportions.

I hope the guns will be a more sensible size than the latest FW DE tank where the sail looks great but the gun looks a bit silly.

[Melissia]

Armored asasult launcher launches armored assaults!

[Anon!]

Armored asasult launcher launches armored assaults!
Armoured assaults? Damn, now I'll only be content with that thing if it fires Land Raiders.

[eldargal]

I'm hoping FW make this at some point:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115389&d=1312184197

[DrLove42]

Armoured assaults? Damn, now I'll only be content with that thing if it fires Land Raiders.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk141/Mechxen/ANGRY_TITAN.jpg
Also 6 lances? I want one of them as well! I want a Heavy Ravager with Splinter Cannons. Like a venom but more guns! Maybe 3 twinlinked Heavy Splinter Cannons (Heavy 8?). Or uses the Ravagers deep venom tank to have 3+ wound rolls

[eldargal]

Courtesy of MajorWesJansen on Warseer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5681660&postcount=67):


How I spent my summer (Gamesday) Vacation

Most of my time was either in seminars, or hanging out talking to the luminaries at the studio guest table.

Will Hayes:
Contemptor Dreadnought Arms- Assault Cannon, Plasma Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolters, Twin Autocannons. Plasma gun in DCCW arm option.

Venerable and Chapter-specific Contemptors next, taking advantage of shoulders being part of the Dreadnought kit and not the weapon packs.

Discussed Crassius rules- limited use now, since only 30 capacity. I suggested making it 31 or 36, and/or giving command vehicle rule like Chimaera.

I asked about female princeps, alternate heads, and amniotic tank princeps options- unsure about female princeps possibility, I mentioned the one in Helsreach. Head options maybe, but likely not. Liked the idea of the tank princeps, perhaps as a special character, an ancient veteran princpes confined to the tank. Would maybe come with alternate faceplate or other options for making the titan distinct.

Warlord Titan- Not started yet, in the idea phase. 22-24 inches tall (60cm) based on an update of the beetleback design. Hadn't considered the secondary weapon mounts on the beetleback, likely would not include. Head likely skull-face appearance.

I asked about the correlation between shield generators and void shields in rules on the Mars warhound and Reaver. He hadn't thought about it, but agreed that it works really well to designate shields lost when played. Discussed placement of void shields on Warlor if 6 on there. Possibly two on each side rear, two in front on "hood."

Discussed carapace weapon mount. Didn't want to just flip the warhound weapons over. At that point I grabbed a sharpie and piece of paper and sketched out a quick turret idea. Will then drew his version- curved front slopes into flat back. Some mechanical gribblies on the sides. On the back, each gun would have a different ammo block that attaches, and the guns themselves would probably be mounted to a curved mantlet to attach to the front. I suggested mounting on a cylinder so the guns could be elevated. I still have the sketch.






Mark Bedford:

Elysian Veteran oncept pictures, mentioned as maybe too Halo looking. I thought they are great and urged them to be made. I also asked about a drop troop commissar. Elysians likely to be drip-fed models. Maybe a few with IA 11.

Most of the rest of my discussion with him was rehashed in the FW seminar.



Jes Goodwin
Void Raven bomber art, and pictures for SSlyth and poisoner.
Void Raven is larger Razorwing, with two more engines, angular glass canopy in the nose, stubby Void Lances. Discussed frame breakdown, likely to end up on three tank sprues.

Poisoner is female, wearing a mix of armor plates and sort of a kimono.

Sslyth is snake like. No legs, sits on tail. 4 arms, with CC weapons. Crocodile like head.

Used to allow pictures of concept art, but doesn't/can't anymore since other companies/individuals have used that art as a basis for knockoffs in the past. Especially unhappy with the argument that since his work is "derivative" that pirating the design is fair game.

Another thing he dislikes is how people say things online that they would never say in person. Mentioned an e-mail received from someone who hoped GW would go under. Responded asking if the person really wanted the company to shut down and employees to lose their jobs. Person seemed surprised, but still said yes.

I mentioned Warseer, and was surprised when he recognized me from here. He also gave a shout-out to Harry. We then segued into a major discussion of the internet response to GW.
Doesn't mind people who dislike his models, but anrgy when people call designers "lazy".
Haemculous and Beastmaster/beasts specifically brought up.
Haemi pose was intentionally cruciform, with a sort of "go ahead and shoot me, I don't care."
Beastmaster was done by Jes on spare time.

He asked what I thought of the Storm Raven, and I said that I leave the tails off mine for aesthetics. Otherwise, I kind of like them.

He asked what I thought the next major internet complaint would be, and I said that if Mat Ward was writing the Necron book (lots of hedging here by both of us, rather humorous) that there would be two weeks plus of whining and doomsday. Jes agreed that that was likely, and that some designers don't go online because there are so many people spewing vitriol. He thought it was unfortunate that people have such a narrow mindset that they prejudge a release even before knowing what is inside, or twist parts to suit their complaints. He mentioned that Ward especially gets this treatment, especially by people who would never say it to his face. Criticism is fine, but simple whining/hatred is not justified. Did not like seeing someone with a banner "taking the piss" about Mat Ward.

Female Imperial Guard- "People want what they can't have" and was joking with me about a comment I made about the quality of female models by GW.

Pricing of models is nothing to do with Jes. pricing done by others.

Medusae and Ur-Ghul in cabinet. Medusae has 2 different complete head options. Got to discussing the Ur-Ghul. Jes explained that it originally came from a throwaway line about a temple of the Ur-ghul, and when asked what they were, they ended up being expanded into a race and unit entry. Also got to discussing Urghul skin, and how it is like shark skin. Some Archons like to wrap the hilts of their weapons with Ur-ghul leather.

Ended when the FW seminar as about tostart and someone wanted to do an interview. Final discussion about pirates vs ninjas- Ninjas win was agreed upon.

I had a great time talking with all three people.

Jes, Mark, Will, thanks for putting up with all my questions and suggestions.

[DrLove42]

Nice to hear some more stuff from Jes there. Look forward to rest of DE line. Should have asked about the IC's though. Guess I'll hav to do it at GD this year :P

Also FW warlord? How much of that is response to guard players whinging they don't have the best strongest titan any more.

[eldargal]

Some more:

Few more things:
Jes is not currently sculpting anything that he can't tell us about, but instead is doing mainly design work and mentoring new sculptors.
Laughed about the whole Summer of Fliers rumor. There was little studio interest in fliers at all until the Razorwing came along, now people want to put fliers in books.
He also does not like the Lucius pattern Epic titan models, as they are too blocky and generic Sci-fi.
He's also checked dates and is confident that GW was the first to seriously do the big war robots in the US, as they appeared before official imports of things like Gundam or Macross.
Jes did mention a slight Evangelion influence.
Got to talking about the Emperor titan, and changes he would make now- Thighs were a big one.

Will Hayes- wants to redo the epic titans to match the new styling- current ones are far too small and out of scale. at 6 mm, Epic models are 1/5, so a Warhound would be 2 inches tall, and the Reaver about the size of the Contemptor dreadnought. Current epic titans are far too plain as well. If redone, more detail would be added, like how Aeronautica updated the various fliers in size and detail.
Lucius Warhound was basically his first project out of Uni, so it has a lot of problems. Flat and blocky for ease of design. Later Mars pattern more refined, far more warhammer looking. Still both Warhounds have major problems with assembly, making the interior and main body out of 6 parts that all attach to each other a bad idea in retrospect. Reaver design more construction friendly, with main body more unified.
Discussed heresy terminators, and possibility of re-mastering the Mark IIb land raider. Old master gone, thus poor fitting casts now. if redone, possibly include variants like redeemer.

[fade_74]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Games_Day_Chicago_2011_Seminar_Highlights.html

Link to some better pics from FW's facebook

[DrBored]

Definitely some good stuff out of all of that.

Looks like we're finally getting to the end of the Dark Eldar releases for the Codex. with the Voidraven, Sslyth, and Lhamean, all we'll need are a few special characters. This makes me very happy! Sorry Tyranids.

Couldn't help but laugh at the convo with Jes about the Internet. It's so true. Too true. The hobby is so full of rage that nobody can be pleased, and I'm sure if we took a look through the logs, we'll find that it's only really a select few people that are discontent, and they're fueling rage about everything for no good reasons.

Oh well. Here's to a good Necron release.

[eldargal]

Thank you!

The Tantalus is gorgeous.


http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Games_Day_Chicago_2011_Seminar_Highlights.html

Link to some better pics from FW's facebook

[DrLove42]

Much better than the Blurries. No better pic of the techmarine with Converison beamer and 2 whips though...

The Tantalus is amazing, definently getting one. Don't see any weapons on it though. It is just a really big transport?

LOVE the contemptor with Cyclone missiles and autocannons. Don't do marines but I might just have to buy one

[wittdooley]

He asked what I thought the next major internet complaint would be, and I said that if Mat Ward was writing the Necron book (lots of hedging here by both of us, rather humorous) that there would be two weeks plus of whining and doomsday. Jes agreed that that was likely, and that some designers don't go online because there are so many people spewing vitriol. He thought it was unfortunate that people have such a narrow mindset that they prejudge a release even before knowing what is inside, or twist parts to suit their complaints. He mentioned that Ward especially gets this treatment, especially by people who would never say it to his face. Criticism is fine, but simple whining/hatred is not justified. Did not like seeing someone with a banner "taking the piss" about Mat Ward.

This makes me pretty sad, actually, as I was part of the group with the banner. Our intention with the entire concept is not to "take a piss" about Mat Ward. The idea is to revel in the the fact that people give the poor man so much hate for what amounts to 3 paragraphs in three entire codecies, especially when the rest of his Codecies are really great. I, for one, have been an ADAMANT support of Ward's, particularly on these boards.

I'd really love to clear this up with both Jes and Mat, so if anyone knows a way to do that, please let me know.

[eldargal]

Well, you could try emailing Dan at [email protected] and explain the situation and ask if he could pass the word on to them? Beyond that I don't know.:( An email to him was mentioned so they must get through somehow.

[wittdooley]

Thanks EG. I feel sort of terrible now.

[eldargal]

You could trying posting it on the Forge World facebook site too, perhaps a staffer will see it and pass it on:
http://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK
But I'd try emailing Dan & Jim first and foremost.

[wittdooley]

Hookay--

Email sent. Hopefully it gets through. Rough day to start the work day already, and then I read that. I feel like Captain Douchebaggery right about now...

[DrLove42]

What was your "offending" banner?

What did it say on it?

[isotope99]

Much better than the Blurries. No better pic of the techmarine with Converison beamer and 2 whips though...

The Tantalus is amazing, definently getting one. Don't see any weapons on it though. It is just a really big transport?


I was wondering this too, but the sharper pictures look like it has eldar nightspinner style weapons built into the dual prows.

I'm not sold on the underside rudders/blades, they look out of scale with the rest of the craft somehow.

[wittdooley]

What was your "offending" banner?

What did it say on it?

Here's a pic :)

http://queencityguard.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/MWH-Banner.jpg

The banner actually got 2nd place to a much deserving Armageddon banner in the banner contest.

[DrLove42]

I just coughed on my drink. That is amazing

I was all ready to say "I can understand why that would be taken negativly" but that is obviously amusing.

[flekkzo]

I just coughed on my drink. That is amazing

I was all ready to say "I can understand why that would be taken negativly" but that is obviously amusing.

Yeah, first of all it looks amazing, second of all it's a joke, not a stab. It's like a mild mild political cartoon. In all fairness, that's just a physical thing to focus on for Jes. All the crap Matt Ward has taken online is surely unjustified and unfair, but that banner is just good fun.

That said, writing Jes isn't a bad idea. Let them know that we aren't all hateful people out there in the online reflection of our hobby.

[wittdooley]

I did. Hopefully it makes a difference. I legitimately feel bad because it wasn't our intent to "take a piss;" that is, presuming my understanding of "taking a piss" is correct in that it = making fun of.

[Lexington]

Man, I totally think Mat Ward is as bad - worse, even! - than he's accused of being, but that made me guffaw aloud.

Quality illustration work, too. Who did that? Why aren't they making a 40K webcomic? These questions haunt my dreams.

[Lancel]

When there is too much negativity, sometimes even a joke can appear insulting. It's hard to take a joke when you're expecting someone to make an insulting remark. At least that's been my experience. I should be more careful about what I say as well, and for my part I accept responsibility for anything negative I've said. I'll start thinking twice on what I say and try to be more constructive and less prejudiced, even if just to make sure what I say can't be misconstrued. It is the Internet after all, and sometimes jokes don't translate well over text.

[flekkzo]

I did. Hopefully it makes a difference. I legitimately feel bad because it wasn't our intent to "take a piss;" that is, presuming my understanding of "taking a piss" is correct in that it = making fun of.

It's a very british thing to say for sure. I'm not a native speaker myself, but I feel that while it does mean making fun of, it does so in a meaner way. It's the kind of question you'd ask a guy in a bar after he has insulted you and you intend to defend your honor, whatever the cause might be.

[MajorWesJanson]

Jes didn't have a very good look at it, someone mentioned it was pro Ward he kind of shrugged. If he had a better look at it, I think he would have thought it was pretty funny, like I do now. He sees a lot of the negative stuff from lurking online, so I can easily see the assumption.

If anyone has questions about my summary of talking to Jes, Mark and Will, feel free to ask and I'll answer what I can.

[eldargal]

Welcome to BoLS Mr Major.:)

I don't suppose anything was mentioned about Craftworld Eldar? New plastic kits, for example? If I'd been there I would have asked whether we would see more female options like with Dark Eldar, sigh.

[MajorWesJanson]

Welcome to BoLS Mr Major.:)

I don't suppose anything was mentioned about Craftworld Eldar? New plastic kits, for example? If I'd been there I would have asked whether we would see more female options like with Dark Eldar, sigh.

Lots of Dark Eldar discussion, but nothing about the Craftworlders, sorry. Sort of related to the two books of Dark Eldar art. He was also pretty clear that he couldn't really confirm anything, but he did hint at a few things.

On female models, the Poisoner was a female concept drawing, with a mix of an armored top similar to the Succubus and sort of a kimono/robe from the waist down. I mentioned female guard. "People want what they can't have" was the response. Was a fairly joking conversation at that point, so take from that what you will.

On the forgeworld side, they plan to make the phoenix lord model for the shadow spectres shortly. Rules for them looked about the same as the experimental version.

[eldargal]

Well I always saw (the remote possibility of female Guard) as more of a FW upgrade kit thing than a mainstream GW thing.

I heard about the Shadow Spectre Phoenix Lord on the seminar videos, really excited to see it. Maybe it will be a girl?:rolleyes:

Oh, no mention of Dark Eldar special characters? Or concept art even. If you saw concept art of Lady Malys you have to tell us!:p

[SMC]

I think everything Mat Ward made after Codex: Space Marines was about 49% decent and 51% crap. I don't like that they KEEP putting him on new books and the only explanation I can think of is that some GW suit thinks he's got a purty mouth and soft hands.

That said, that banner isn't what I would call negative. I mean, its actually way lighter than what I would have done. Maybe a Necron giving Dante a reach around.

[eldargal]

Actually it is really only a fraction of his rules and fluff which are poor, in my opinion, it is just people focus on those and ignore the rest. Even though I hated the Draigo stuff and the bit about the GK needing SoB blood to defeat a daemonic incursion, it was like 5% of all the background in the book. For rules it is really only the fast vehicles which annoy me. Grey Knights are powerful but expensive, etc.

[Wildcard]

I've always felt that melee prowess is prefered over shooting when you need to destroy something unhuman, be that a demon, vampire,werewolf etc monster in any fluff.

That said, it must be that reason why i felt so terribly sad about the GK dex. I know the difference between game mechanics / ideology behind army versus anything related to fluff, and GK dex filled the vacuum of hard hitting middle range army.

But still it just doesn't seem right. Given the amount of daemons that usually spawn from the warp, it feels a bit silly (in the 'fluffy' point) that the grey knights manage just as long as they still have ammo for their stormbolters, and when you finally hear the *click* of hammer hitting empty chamber, and you still see hordes of daemons coming into your way, you can hear wailing more terrible than of any the daemons could ever produce, and it goes like this: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!! !"

Jokes aside, if i am not completely mistaken, all the grey knights had ws5 and got the +1a in cc from storm bolter (true grit etc?). Game balance aside, i think that it somehow captured the spirit of a truly elite force, that has battled enemies with inhuman strenght, toughness and speed for centuries (if not millenias)..

About the fluff: Although there were some nice and cool stories, yet draigo stuck in the warp was meh, Crowe not using the blades full power was a bit dull, and all in all, most of the stories were too 'over-heroic' (and even more so when compared to the actual statlines etc. of the grey knights) for a man nearing his 30s.. (Not sure if it sinks into 12+ age kids tho..)

Mordraks backround was funniest / most entertaining. But the overall unit backrounds were a bit lame. (given the fact that if you got 1:million change of becoming a GK, then odds are more or less the same to become a paladin - with a normal marine statline save for the +1 ws and +1 wound..)

I dont know about you guys, but i play / paint / read 40k for the love of the universe, lore and setting. Not just because it's just a TT-game that i have to WAAC :( ..And there when the fluff doesn't meet in any way with the performance, it really makes me sad..

---------------------------------------------

Aside from all that, got a bit carried away - sorry bout it :) - Its really nice to hear stuff from the creators of the game. As i only play 40k, i really hope that all the effort put into the Fantasy wont eat resources from the 40k though..

Hoping to hear some solid stuff / or even rumours about the Chaos Legions and the next edition of the game!

[Hive Mind]

That Skaven Brood Horror thingy is straight out of a bad James Herbert novel.

[energongoodie]

Has there been any photos or drawings of any of the Elysians floating around?

[eldargal]

I don't know who that is, but I think it is adorable myself.

That Skaven Brood Horror thingy is straight out of a bad James Herbert novel.



Just for you:

Has there been any photos or drawings of any of the Elysians floating around?

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115433&d=1312200430
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115434&d=1312200430
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115435&d=1312200430
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115436&d=1312200430

[DrLove42]

Dunno about Elysians.

But just seen an interesting post from FW on their facebook page in reply to someone asking if we'll see more Death Korp models

"The Death Korps and Elysians are 'our' Imperial Guard regiments so you can guarantee that we will continue to expand the ranges over future IA books. Remember, so far you've only really seen the Death Korps in a single theatre of operation, and a single style of warfare..."

[energongoodie]

Thanks eldargal.
Are these legit? Cause they look a little A-level rather than professional I am afraid to say.

[eldargal]

They are legit, but I think FW thinks they are too 'Halo' or something so it will probably change.

[wittdooley]

Yep, they're legit. I have some very similar pictures. I think EG is spot on with their worry that the models are "too Halo." Bedford said as much, despite my gushing about them.

I'm glad to hear that Jes wasn't super angry, as the Mat Ward Horde is the theme for our Adepticon 2012 army. Lots of fun to come, but we have to wait on our conversions until we see the new Necron dex. If you're at Adepticon 2012, you'll get some Mat Ward Horde goodies, to be sure.

[MajorWesJanson]

Thanks eldargal.
Are these legit? Cause they look a little A-level rather than professional I am afraid to say.

They are legit. I took the pictures while talking with Mark Bedford about them. He's actually the source of the "too Halo looking" comment. There was other cool pictures in there, but most of them were seen before- ork Battle Wagon upgrades like a Weirdboy tower, supa mega rokket, and super shokk guns.

[wittdooley]

They are legit. I took the pictures while talking with Mark Bedford about them. He's actually the source of the "too Halo looking" comment. There was other cool pictures in there, but most of them were seen before- ork Battle Wagon upgrades like a Weirdboy tower, supa mega rokket, and super shokk guns.

Did you happen to ask him about the big beastman hero that was sketched in there? I forgot to! Had like, scything blades for hands. Was very cool looking.

[Lancel]

Thanks eldargal.
Are these legit? Cause they look a little A-level rather than professional I am afraid to say.

They look good to me, but eh, it's only concept art. Granted some concept art looks freaking awesome, but other times not so much. Usually it looks more awesome once the concept is refined some.

I agree it looks a tad too Halo. Needs more grimdark (vague descriptors for the win).

[energongoodie]

Thanks for taking the photos and I apologise if I sounded a little Troll like.

I don't dislike the designs or mind if they are a bit Haloy. My comments were concerned with the execution.
I'm sure when they get to the final stage they will look awesome and I'll buy a bunch.

[SMC]

Actually it is really only a fraction of his rules and fluff which are poor, in my opinion, it is just people focus on those and ignore the rest. Even though I hated the Draigo stuff and the bit about the GK needing SoB blood to defeat a daemonic incursion, it was like 5% of all the background in the book. For rules it is really only the fast vehicles which annoy me. Grey Knights are powerful but expensive, etc.

Oh its there if you look hard enough.

The whole "Titan being magically disappeared into the Warp for a hundred years in the span of a few weeks."

The wtf moment where the GK were a "chapter of a thousand strong" BEFORE the Codex Astartes was in circulation.

The constant mind wipes.

The slaughter of billions of people and imperial guard. Congrats on being saved by the GKs?

There's more, but I'm sure you've read it too. Our opinions on the definition of ridiculous must differ.

As far as his rules go...they're ok for the most part, but he drops complete *** in there at random intervals.

I just prefer Phil Kelly so much more and Mat Ward's name is on almost every codex in 5th edition. He's just...not good. In my opinion.

[wittdooley]

The slaughter of billions of people and imperial guard. Congrats on being saved by the GKs?



I dunno, this part seems right in line with the rest of the Inquisition. Exeterminatus much?

I really think his stuff is quite good. Perhaps my ability to suspend my belief whilst reading stories about 8-foot tall genetically engineered super humans that spit acid and have two hearts extends further than most, though.

[MajorWesJanson]

Thanks for taking the photos and I apologise if I sounded a little Troll like.

I don't dislike the designs or mind if they are a bit Haloy. My comments were concerned with the execution.
I'm sure when they get to the final stage they will look awesome and I'll buy a bunch.

Nah, you were fine. I agree that I will get 3-4 squads of these guys when they eventually come out. Also discussed a drop commissar, currently Mark does a conversion and paint job. I mentioned Valkyrie crew and gunners, and was told that they had considered them. Plan is to drip feed elysian kits. Possibly one or two releases for IA 11, if they feel like it.

[SMC]

I dunno, this part seems right in line with the rest of the Inquisition. Exeterminatus much?

I really think his stuff is quite good. Perhaps my ability to suspend my belief whilst reading stories about 8-foot tall genetically engineered super humans that spit acid and have two hearts extends further than most, though.

Exterminatus is for when victory is unattainable and the only thing left to do is ruin the enemy's begotten spoils.

The Grey Knights win the battle and then kill everyone. Quite different imo.

That having been said, its not completely out of character considering how ruthless and evil the inquisition is, but still...pretty ridiculous that it happens every single time the GKs are called in.

[Kawauso]

Exterminatus is for when victory is unattainable and the only thing left to do is ruin the enemy's begotten spoils.

The Grey Knights win the battle and then kill everyone. Quite different imo.

That having been said, its not completely out of character considering how ruthless and evil the inquisition is, but still...pretty ridiculous that it happens every single time the GKs are called in.

They Grey Knights are concerned with preserving the Imperium at large, not the lives of individuals. It's been well-established that an individual's well-being is worthless to the Imperium as an organization.

GK only show up when there's some real hairy stuff going down. And they're a sort of 40k black ops unit, in that their existence must remain a secret. They can't risk anyone exposed to daemonic taint surviving to spread it, and they can't risk anyone knowing too much about them and getting away (they prefer being something of a 40k urban myth). This means they are ruthless. Their job isn't to show up and save people. Their job is to show up and defeat the enemies of the Imperium. Since Chaos is a corrupting influence and survivors are at risk of succumbing to it, they fall into the category of -potential- future enemies of the Imperium. The Grey Knights just don't allow for half-measures, is all.

You don't have to like the fluff, but it's not like it's poorly-conceived or anything, especially in context with the rest of 40k.

Also, what's strange about them being a chapter of 1000 strong before the codex was being circulated? They were starting a new chapter from scratch - who says they stopped at 1000? That's just how many combat personnel they had when Titan re-emerged from the Warp - and that part of the fluff was strange how, exactly? I'm curious as to what you find out of place about it, given what we know about the Warp.

As for the mind wipes, they don't do that all the time. Only people who are potentially too valuable for the Imperium to lose are deemed worthy of that 'gentle' treatment (i.e. Guard regiments that demonstrate incredible valour and SM chapters). Even then, the process they use is so harsh that most of the people put through it die. Even the longer, more careful mind wipe they perform on other Space Marines is likely to kill some of them.
For your average, run-of-the-mill Guard who happen to be stationed on a daemon-infested world, though...if they Grey Knights show up to save the day, you're screwed.

[Lexington]

They are legit, but I think FW thinks they are too 'Halo' or something so it will probably change.
Sadness. I love those designs, and would be quite pleased to see an Elysian elite unit, analogous to the Kasrkin, which these look to be. The Halo comparison's dead-on, though, so I can see why GW would want to avoid it.


Perhaps my ability to suspend my belief whilst reading stories about 8-foot tall genetically engineered super humans that spit acid and have two hearts extends further than most, though.
Eh, the problem with Ward's work isn't that it's unbelievable - it's that it has no verisimilitude. His stories feel artificial, and his unit descriptions read like ad copy - and bad ad copy at that. I couldn't tell you why, and I actually doubt it's got much to do with his skill with prose, but his work has a distinctively offputting tone that you don't see in other designer's work.

I'll be glad when GW pulls yet another "oh, well, we were so bad back then, but now we're better" maneuver a few years down the road, and more or less disavows his work.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Agreed with Kawauso, they've been killing everyone they believe isn't to ignorant to know the truth/corrupted in mind. body and soul since conception... There even rules for it in an Apocalypse data sheet (I.E, once all Daemons/Chaos are dead they rampage through your own troopers :L)

[SMC]

They Grey Knights are concerned with preserving the Imperium at large, not the lives of individuals. It's been well-established that an individual's well-being is worthless to the Imperium as an organization.

GK only show up when there's some real hairy stuff going down. And they're a sort of 40k black ops unit, in that their existence must remain a secret. They can't risk anyone exposed to daemonic taint surviving to spread it, and they can't risk anyone knowing too much about them and getting away (they prefer being something of a 40k urban myth). This means they are ruthless. Their job isn't to show up and save people. Their job is to show up and defeat the enemies of the Imperium. Since Chaos is a corrupting influence and survivors are at risk of succumbing to it, they fall into the category of -potential- future enemies of the Imperium. The Grey Knights just don't allow for half-measures, is all.

You don't have to like the fluff, but it's not like it's poorly-conceived or anything, especially in context with the rest of 40k.

Also, what's strange about them being a chapter of 1000 strong before the codex was being circulated? They were starting a new chapter from scratch - who says they stopped at 1000? That's just how many combat personnel they had when Titan re-emerged from the Warp - and that part of the fluff was strange how, exactly? I'm curious as to what you find out of place about it, given what we know about the Warp.

As for the mind wipes, they don't do that all the time. Only people who are potentially too valuable for the Imperium to lose are deemed worthy of that 'gentle' treatment (i.e. Guard regiments that demonstrate incredible valour and SM chapters). Even then, the process they use is so harsh that most of the people put through it die. Even the longer, more careful mind wipe they perform on other Space Marines is likely to kill some of them.
For your average, run-of-the-mill Guard who happen to be stationed on a daemon-infested world, though...if they Grey Knights show up to save the day, you're screwed.

Okay some of this is just you being way too invested in the fluff making sense. Because a lot it, if looked at impartially, is just dumb. There are limits to suspension of disbelief that when crossed because akin to drinking the kool aid.

You REALLY don't see a problem with a secret chapter of space marines that have been around for 10,000 years regularly killing hundreds of billions of people? Do you know how many murders that is in that span? How many worlds that were valuable enough to the Imperium to warrant deployment of the Grey Knights that are then left completely barren by the Grey Knights? Yes, the Imperium is a vast body, but its not infinite. This compounded with everything else going on that regularly gets the "hundreds of billions of people died in a cheap attempt at lending gravity to a single paragraph in a single codex" treatment means that virtually half the Imperium should be in the grave.

The Sigilite makes an entire moon disappear with his mind? It hangs out in the Warp for a hundred or so years? Why don't they have more of these "Macro Geller fields"? You know...use them to do more than just make a single chapter of Space Marines that no one was really planning on making in the first place. Why not use that technology to make more LEGIONS for the Emperor and actually WIN the Horus Heresy?

Why wouldn't they have the exact number of space marines dictated by a book put into circulation a hundred or so years AFTER they were created? Are you serious?! Its just a funny coincidence that there were a 1000 suitable marines out of all the candidates they took with them into the Warp?

You really don't have to repeat verbatim whats in the GK codex man. I own it too...that's sort of how I know its drivel.

[Kawauso]

Okay some of this is just you being way too invested in the fluff making sense. Because a lot it, if looked at impartially, is just dumb. There are limits to suspension of disbelief that when crossed because akin to drinking the kool aid.

You REALLY don't see a problem with a secret chapter of space marines that have been around for 10,000 years regularly killing hundreds of billions of people? Do you know how many murders that is in that span? How many worlds that were valuable enough to the Imperium to warrant deployment of the Grey Knights that are then left completely barren by the Grey Knights? Yes, the Imperium is a vast body, but its not infinite. This compounded with everything else going on that regularly gets the "hundreds of billions of people died in a cheap attempt at lending gravity to a single paragraph in a single codex" treatment means that virtually half the Imperium should be in the grave.

The Sigilite makes an entire moon disappear with his mind? It hangs out in the Warp for a hundred or so years? Why don't they have more of these "Macro Geller fields"? You know...use them to do more than just make a single chapter of Space Marines that no one was really planning on making in the first place. Why not use that technology to make more LEGIONS for the Emperor and actually WIN the Horus Heresy?

Why wouldn't they have the exact number of space marines dictated by a book put into circulation a hundred or so years AFTER they were created? Are you serious?! Its just a funny coincidence that there were a 1000 suitable marines out of all the candidates they took with them into the Warp?

You really don't have to repeat verbatim whats in the GK codex man. I own it too...that's sort of how I know its drivel.

I think you're trying to take it a little too literally is your problem.
The fluff in codices is populated a lot of the time by things that are more likely the exception than the rule, because they make for more dramatic, interesting little story-snippets. Exterminatus is extremely rare despite how often we see talk of it thrown around, for example. And most of the engagements Space Marines are involved in are very, very small-scale.

The Grey Knights operate in secret whenever possible, remember. When deployed I'd imagine they'd go to great lengths to keep their presence in a given theatre a secret, unless they absolutely -had- to collaborate with/interact with other Imperial forces.

And I don't think the Grey Knights have all that many people to kill, should things come to that. A daemonic infestation on the scale that warrants the presence of the Grey Knights is not likely to leave any/many survivors who aren't Marines or members of the Inquisition. And yes, I have no problems with them decimating entire Guard regiments because the Guard are a prime example of how cheaply the Imperium views human lives. They're literally expendable cannon-fodder.
No, the Imperium isn't infinite, but considering that there are million(s) of worlds in it, and that each of those worlds most likely have, on average, billions of people living on them... It's easy to see why humanity is the abundant currency of the Imperium.
Of course they wouldn't throw away resources they don't have to. But if those resources are normal human beings, the Imperium is a lot less likely to value them much in the first place.

The Sigilite making a moon vanish with his mind...yeah, I have no problems with that. 40k is full of crazy over-the-top stuff like that...that's part of what I like about it. :P Everything's cranked to 11. But I still find it pretty easy to view the practical side of things in there, too.

Macro Geller Fields..that's clearly some pretty advanced tech. Whenever someone asks about a work of fiction "why don't they use a million of X, because it's the best", think of it this way: why doesn't that ever happen in real life? Because things like resource allocation, etc. have to be taken into account. Why doesn't the US military give all of its soldiers the best weapons and equipment? That would be prohibitively expensive, and the US doesn't view it as being worth the cost. That's why.
Also, you're wondering why they didn't make more legions during the Heresy? Really?

At the end of the day I'm not going to say 40k fluff is perfect, ever. But I think a lot of people view things too seriously or too absolutely (i.e. Necrons and BA would never, ever ally against a common threat? Ever? I'd find it harder to believe if that -were- the case), which is kind of ironic, given that the whole 40k universe is filled with shades of grey regarding things like who the 'good guys' are, etc.

But hey, I'm not trying to tell you how you ought to view the fluff, just offering my perspective on why I don't think it's so abhorrent, as many people seem to. Do whatever you like. :)

Also, so that I'm not totally jacking this thread...
I agree with regards to those Elyssian designs looking a bit too Halo...but I'm not sure that I'd see that as a problem, personally. There's room for a bit of everything in the 40k universe, as far as I'm concerned. Especially for things like Guard regiments, which often seem to represent slices of military life from any number of given time periods or places or cultures. Would be interesting to see a less Halo-esque design, though. I guess we will, soon enough.

[Súil Dubh]

But just seen an interesting post from FW on their facebook page in reply to someone asking if we'll see more Death Korp models

"The Death Korps and Elysians are 'our' Imperial Guard regiments so you can guarantee that we will continue to expand the ranges over future IA books. Remember, so far you've only really seen the Death Korps in a single theatre of operation, and a single style of warfare..."

???

That's a very intriguing post.

I thought that the Death Korps were only designed for a single style of warfare: attrition.

I'm not complaining, though. It'll be great to see more Death Korps models.

[SMC]

"Macro Geller Fields..that's clearly some pretty advanced tech. Whenever someone asks about a work of fiction "why don't they use a million of X, because it's the best", think of it this way: why doesn't that ever happen in real life? Because things like resource allocation, etc. have to be taken into account. Why doesn't the US military give all of its soldiers the best weapons and equipment? That would be prohibitively expensive, and the US doesn't view it as being worth the cost. That's why.
Also, you're wondering why they didn't make more legions during the Heresy? Really?"

But...they wouldn't need millions...they could have just trained more Legions right on Titan. Legions that had no idea who Horus was aside from the fact that it was now their life's purpose to make him into the Emperor's new toilet.

Its not like Terra didn't have a trillion or so people living on it at the time.

Mat Ward just doesn't seem to think things through at all. I don't like it when someone uses the "its not real so its not important" cop out. Obviously, it IS important because the world is why we play the game.

I mean, its not like Kelly is Shakespeare, but he doesn't try to be either. He writes good stories in his fluff and leaves it at that. Ward tries to depict everything as the ultimate whatever it is and literally reshape 40k with each new codex...but he's terrible. Oh so terrible.

I don't pay 30USD to read some kid's fan fiction so why should I for Draigo's magical adventures through Imagination Land? And the tried and true "don't buy it if you don't like it" defense that usually works pretty well isn't applicable in this case. GW lets him write EVERY codex. Its impossible to politely avoid.

I'm not trying to poop on you for not feeling the way I do. Although I do find it disconcerting. ;)

[eldargal]

Jes Goodwin posted on Warseer!

You see Jamie, this is where it starts. You recall our conversation about misquotes and chinese whispers?

What I said was that I preferred the older style of Titan [the Mars/beetleback] to the more blocky forms as I felt they were a more original take on the giant robot theme. I would certainly not claim that 'GW was the first to do big war robots in the US', but I think the original Titan designs were quite new at the time.

With regard to the Evangelion 'influence', what I said was that many people have compared the Eldar titans designs to the Evas, but that I was fairly confident that the first eldar titan designs predated the release of Evangelion in the west. I did say that Evangelion is my favourite mecha anime.

Anyway, it was very nice to meet you, it was a very 'spirited' conversation and I guess some of the detail got lost in translation. ;)

I'm sure this has made its way halfway round the other forums by now, so it's probably too late, but I just wanted to put the record straight.

Oh, and I gather the Mat Ward Banner guys weren't 'taking the piss'. Sorry guys, I guess I was having a 'thin skinned' moment, mea culpa.

Bolded for Wittdooley.;) I managed not to make a fool of myself and ask if I could have his babies.

[DrLove42]

Good to hear the message got back to them, Jes is still a living legend

Make it my goal at GD this year to track him down and thank him for the DE line :P

[the collector]

total sweetness :)

[Súil Dubh]

Jes Goodwin posted on Warseer!

Wow!

Do you have a link to the original thread, or post?

[eldargal]

Post 116 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312397&page=6).

He referenced the conversation he had with MajorWes at Games Day so we know it is him.;)

[wittdooley]

Vindication. I shall now write him a sonnet.

[wittdooley]

And presenting, the Jes Goodwin Sonnet. Yes, EG, I know it is a stanza longer than the original Sonnet 18 :)

The Jes Goodwin Sonnet (Styled after Shakespeare’s Sonnet 18)

Shall I compare thee to Auguste Rodin?
Your work appears a bit more mini’ture
Yet loses none the impact one has seen
A master of green stuff you are for sure.

Oft overlooked are those who sculpt in scale
The talent there is surely on display
Whether in plate or in full combat mail
Your designs always seem to rule the day

Dark Eldar grace filled with deadly intent
The female form you seem to sculpt so well
Dynamic poses; wyches look hell-bent
Our Sisters hopes? If only Jes doth quell.

And so your work forever will endure
In armies of the beardies and the damned
Lelith’s pose, both deadly and demure
Proves that in sculpture you are quite the man.

Your influence we hope to see much more
With baited breath we wait for what’s in store.

[DrLove42]

Dunno if this is new to anyone, but FW just put this picture up on their Facebook

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281630_272502009433753_257094630974491_1358333_172 2073_n.jpg

Praeotor armoured assault vehicle. No rules or release (new Skaven stuff this week instead) but nice looking model!

[wittdooley]

Sweet mother of god.

[Kawauso]

That....um...wow.
Here's my wallet, Forge World. You can have it, if you want.

[andrewm9]

Dunno if this is new to anyone, but FW just put this picture up on their Facebook

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281630_272502009433753_257094630974491_1358333_172 2073_n.jpg

Praeotor armoured assault vehicle. No rules or release (new Skaven stuff this week instead) but nice looking model!

I want oneof those. They look awesome. Do we know how much they will be yet? or how big they actually are?

[DrLove42]

No idea on release, imagine it'd be soon

As for size, it looks like a Crassus chassis, which is up for sale on FW already. There's probably some pictures for scale for that