If this was GW...

[wittdooley]

...the world would be on fire right now. From Privateer's Website:



As part of our continuing efforts to shorten our back order fulfillment times and ensure players have access to the core items for each Warmachine and Hordes faction we have created a Core Model Order List. This is a temporary measure as we continue to expand our production facilities to keep up with the amazing worldwide growth of both Warmachine and Hordes following the release of Mk II. The core list order system will go into effect this fall.

The core list was designed in a joint effort between Privateer Press’ development and retail support departments. The items included represent popular model choices for both new and existing players and showcase the core essence of each faction. Because Warmachine and Hordes are constantly evolving games, we will continually evaluate this list and update it when necessary based on retailer and player feedback to ensure the best possible core product remains consistently in stock for retailers and players.

As we continue to aggressively expand our production capabilities the wait time for items not on the core list will shorten until all items return to our pre–Mk II release turnaround times. Until then, distributors should expect the following approximate lead times:

•Core Model Order List POs will ship within 2 weeks.
•Warmachine and Hordes books and accessories will ship within 2–4 weeks.
•Warmachine and Hordes metal models not on the core list will ship within 6-8 weeks.
We would like to thank our entire community for your continuing support and patience during this time of unprecedented growth.

Seriously, with shipping times like that, people would be going insane were this GW. Expect shipping in 2-4 weeks of ordering a rulebook. Core models within 2 weeks. 2 weeks?

I'm just curious to see two things:

1.) Last time I ordered a Direct Item from my FLGS from GW, it took 4 days to receive it. What do you think the reaction would be if GW announced shipping times for this for their "non-core" products and books. Do you think there would be a massive Shyt Storm like I do?

2.) I really enjoy Warmahordes, but this has been one of my increasing frustrations with PP. I tried to start a Gator army when they released the new models, but it was near impossible to get Gatormen Posses, a required unit for the army. Why do you think people, essentially, ignore this fact because it's Privateer?

[Lord Azaghul]

with all due respect...So what?

[DrLove42]

In a non-specific sense 6-8 weeks for a model is ridiculous. Absolutly mental in this day and age. They can blame it on demand all they like, but thats just bad

As someone fed up of people ragging on GW because "PP are soooo much better" this makes me smile.

[wittdooley]

with all due respect...So what?

To me, the "so what" is the double standard. Bear in mind I patronize both companies. I just think the double standard is quite ridiculous, and wanted to see some other people chime in.

[MadCowCrazy]

Heck GW has a max order of 3 kits for most finecast, at least you will eventually get your order from PP...

[Lane]

I've seen items on the GW webstore listed with 4 week shipping times.

Now that GW has pulled all metal minis from retail stores and not released finecast versions of all I suspect that slower selling items will quite long waits.

[Lord Azaghul]

To me, the "so what" is the double standard. Bear in mind I patronize both companies. I just think the double standard is quite ridiculous, and wanted to see some other people chime in.


I’m a reasonable/ responsible adult. I’m used to working with smaller companies, I remember when MAIL ORDER existed, I expected to wait 6-8’s for anything. I made a linax order for a ton of 60mm bases a while back – they said: due to a heavy volumn of orders the wait was 3-5 weeks before it ships.

Ok that’s fine: you’ve told me all I needed to know BEFORE I ordered…

Business is great for PP, hence the back order – good for them.

Right now GW has pissed off so many people in so many ways that it doesn’t even matter anymore.

It’s not a ‘double standard’ it’s closer to ‘situational standards’.

That whole post came off has some sort of ‘communal tattle tailing’
(and I think to much of your posting’s to call you a troll – so lets be very clear that I’m not going there)

[Lerra]

Meh. I've ordered three things from GW through my FLGS.

#1 Never arrived. I waited 3 months and then bought it on Ebay.
#2 Took ~10 days to arrive.
#3 Took 8 weeks to arrive.

GW can be pretty terrible on shipping, too, depending on what part of the world you're in.

I've ordered twice from PP, and both orders took about 2 weeks.

[wittdooley]

That whole post came off has some sort of ‘communal tattle tailing’
(and I think to much of your posting’s to call you a troll – so lets be very clear that I’m not going there)

Appreciate that a lot.

To me, I think it's interesting at the least. This next analogy is going to be perhaps lost on some of our European friends and our non-sports friends, but I'll throw it out anyways:

I'm an Ohio State football fan. Any time there is even a SNIFF of news regarding Ohio State's 'tattoogate' ESPN.com has it as front page, headline news. Contrarily, any SEC schools (with whom ESPN is partnered) that receive bad press (Auburn players robbing a house, former Alabama players admitting on HBO they were paid by boosters) receives a side note article, and it is left to die.

I understand part of this is because anything Ohio State drives ratings. But anything Alabama drives ratings, too. There is an obvious bias at work that is frustrating, and I no longer look at ESPN any differently than I do Fox News, CNN, CNBC, or pretty much any obviously slanted "neutral" news source. I recognize these biases, but am still frustrated by them.

Back to topic: This is the SEC story. It hasn't even been mentioned on most sites. It's two-day old news, and it hasn't been touched upon here, despite the fact that it, IMO, warrants discussion. In this day and age having to wait for more than 2 weeks for anything is an anomoly. The fact that you could be waiting up to two months for some models is, again IMO, absurd, and if GW made this public declaration it would be a forum madhouse.

Beyond pre-ordering something, I don't know that I've ever waited 6-8 weeks for anything in the past 5 years. The fact that essential rulebooks are listed at 2-4 weeks is, to me, troubling. I'd have put the news in the Privateer section, but we all know it will get more traffic here. Leave GW out of it if you'd like, and ask yourself whether or not their time frames are really excusable, regardless of their growth. As a responsible business, they should have had reasonable estimates of their growth and have planned accordingly. They are losing sales because of these wait times.

Last year I was really excited about Privateer at GenCon. I knew they'd have the plastic boxed sets. I knew they'd have a few pre-release products. This year, I'm having trouble being excited, because I have no expecations on what they'll have there. I know I'll be plesantly surprised, but that will be more a product of my low expecation than anything.

EDIT:
Just read through the Cygnar "Core" list and, well, IMO it is really limiting. No Black 13. Only a few casters. No trenchers. I'm sorry Privateer, the Gallant Upgrade kit is NOT one of your "Core" products. As for Trollbloods. Yikes. No Earthborn in the "Core." No Champions in the "Core." Only Light Warbeast is the Bouncer. No Madrak at all beyond the Boxed Set... Weird...

[UltramarineFan]

I've seen items on the GW webstore listed with 4 week shipping times.

Now that GW has pulled all metal minis from retail stores and not released finecast versions of all I suspect that slower selling items will quite long waits.

That may be what it says, doesn't mean that's what will happen. I had an order which had 4 weeks shipping time; it was shipped within a few days.

Have to say I agree with wittdooley in saying that people do use double standards when talking about GW and Privateer Press. A lot of the time PP fans seem to just ignore the problems PP has while bashing GW for all its shortcomings and not even taking into account the areas where GW vastly outdoes PP.

[murrburger]

I live in a fairly rural part of Canada (a fair distance away from Vancouver), and my GW online orders have never taken more than a week. If I order something through my FLGS, the owner will tell me he'll order the stuff the next time he restocks (Which can be anywhere from 1-4 weeks).

I play Cryx, but I have such a hard time finding the models I need. I still don't own the new book yet (I can't find it), and I'm still hunting down models to build my army. I've sort of given up on Warmachine until I head to Esquimalt for naval training.

[Lord Azaghul]

I really have no problem with any of it. Just doesn't seem worth any of my nerd rage ability atm (it's all currently spent!)

I've already got a ton of my PP stuff that still needs to be build and painted, so waiting for anything outside the 'core' really don't bother me in the slightest - I don't need it urgently - and if i did - PP encourages enough proxying that it wouldn't matter in either case. :p

[fuzzbuket]

so PP lovers hate gw if it breathes but if PP charges £100000000000000 for a single mini its okay?

welcome to the internet of GW haters


-fuzz

[MaltonNecromancer]

. What do you think the reaction would be if GW announced shipping times for this for their "non-core" products and books. Do you think there would be a massive Shyt Storm like I do?

A whole bunch of whining, self-indulgent brats with an over-inflated sense of their own entitlement would whine online to each other about how unfair life was - none of them with the slightest thought about real issues in the world. The only people who would listen and care would be other brats like them, sure and safe in the knowledge that Nothing Could Possibly Be Worse Than My Toys Being Late/Overpriced/"Nerfed"/Complaint De Jour.

Their cries would go unheeded by the rest of the world, who frankly have better things to worry about (whether that be as simple as paying for mortgages, or as complex as co-ordinating revolutions against hideous fascist regimes in parts of the world where the death penalty is used with thoughtless abandon).


Why do you think people, essentially, ignore this fact because it's Privateer?

Because...

Oh, I can't even be bothered coming up with a witty/sanctimonious/patronising response. What do I think about this, GW price rises, is PP better than GW? To slightly misquote Anton Ego from Pixar's film "Ratatouille", my response to every single complaint of this nature on any internet message board is this:

"After reading a lot of overheated puffery about your <complaint>, you know what I'm craving? A little perspective. That's it. I'd like some fresh, clear, well seasoned perspective. Can you suggest a good wine to go with that?"

[house_cawdor]

I always get my GW orders eithin 2-4 days....Must be your FLGS Problem...

[Groglurk]

A whole bunch of whining, self-indulgent brats with an over-inflated sense of their own entitlement would whine online to each other about how unfair life was - none of them with the slightest thought about real issues in the world. The only people who would listen and care would be other brats like them, sure and safe in the knowledge that Nothing Could Possibly Be Worse Than My Toys Being Late/Overpriced/"Nerfed"/Complaint De Jour.

Their cries would go unheeded by the rest of the world, who frankly have better things to worry about (whether that be as simple as paying for mortgages, or as complex as co-ordinating revolutions against hideous fascist regimes in parts of the world where the death penalty is used with thoughtless abandon).



Because...

Oh, I can't even be bothered coming up with a witty/sanctimonious/patronising response. What do I think about this, GW price rises, is PP better than GW? To slightly misquote Anton Ego from Pixar's film "Ratatouille", my response to every single complaint of this nature on any internet message board is this:

"After reading a lot of overheated puffery about your <complaint>, you know what I'm craving? A little perspective. That's it. I'd like some fresh, clear, well seasoned perspective. Can you suggest a good wine to go with that?"

Not that your comments are necessarily untrue, but if these forum posts and responses are so trivial, unimportant, and lacking in perspective, may I ask why you're reading them to begin with?

[wittdooley]

"After reading a lot of overheated puffery about your <complaint>, you know what I'm craving? A little perspective. That's it. I'd like some fresh, clear, well seasoned perspective. Can you suggest a good wine to go with that?"

Love the use of the Ratatouille quote, so very much.

Groglurk. Congrats on popping your BoLS cherry. Might I suggest post #2 contain something a little more productive?

[Brass Scorpion]

Why is this in the 40K News And Rumors section?

It might qualify for General Discussion but there is neither news nor rumor relating to 40K in this topic.

[MaltonNecromancer]

if these forum posts and responses are so trivial, unimportant, and lacking in perspective, may I ask why you're reading them to begin with?

I keep browsing the forums, and every third one is some person or other complaining like this and it's doing my head in. It's like, about a week ago, I was at a friend's party, and he'd invited a mate I'd never met before who sat down and spent two hours complaining about GW. It was insane. He just sat there trashing the models (overpriced and poorly scaled, not as good as other companies) the game rules (simplistic and childish), the whole idea of painting ("I hate it, I just want pre-paints"), codicies (every codex is unbalanced and broken), just absolutely everything about the hobby wasn't good enough. It wasn't even that there was a few problems: everything was dreadful.

He was, in essence, every complainer I read on these forums made flesh, and I just got to thinking: if you hate everything so much, why do you play? And of course, it's not that he hates it - he just loves the sound of his own puffery, amking sage pronouncements while everyone around him goes "Oh how accurate you are, oh enlightened cynical one". Arrogance will ever be the armour of insecurity. He just likes to hear the sound of his own voice, and wants a little choir of yes men stroking his precious ego, the rest of us dismissed as having "Not paid close enough attention" to whatever it is that's so awful about a game that's so much fun that all his friends play it.

And the thing is, I love pretty much every aspect of the hobby but the price... And I get round that by careful purchases, 3rd party miniatures, and liberal use of the eBay, to the point where I haven't actually paid that much more for my models than back when I started in 1990.

And every time I read a post where some person or other is complaining (and it's becoming more and more often, what with the world recession driving prices of luxuries through the roof) that I just want to scream. If you don't like the hobby, fine - stop playing. because that thing that annoys you? You are so insignificantly powerless, nothing you can do will change it.

TL;DR: I post in these trivial columns because, well, I suppose I'm being trolled (albeit not deliberately). In the words of another, altogether darker film, I just want these people to know:

"You got nothing to say, and you're saying it too loud."

[Lockark]

To me, the "so what" is the double standard. Bear in mind I patronize both companies. I just think the double standard is quite ridiculous, and wanted to see some other people chime in.

It's not that it's a double standard. It's that GW like it or not has kinda set a standard in the industry for getting people their models. I've never had to wait 6-8 weeks for models from GW directly. That's 2 to 2 and a half months!

I've had to deal with that from other smaller manufactures, but not GW.

For awhail the FLGS sometimes had to wait 3-4 weeks to get sometimes in at worst for GW orders. But even then more recently they have basically been getting what they order in only a single week, two at the most.

Don't get me wrong. This is a great announcement! But it's realy just a announcement that PP with be meeting these higher standards. I know were I live thier were alot of people hot and bothered to get into Wrmahords. But the supplies issue basically killed the game since the FLGS would struggle to get in the models people need.

Got to the point he just had to sell it all off clearance and discontinue stocking it.

[Gir]

It's not that it's a double standard. It's that GW like it or not has kinda set a standard in the industry for getting people their models. I've never had to wait 6-8 weeks for models from GW directly. That's 2 to 2 and a half months!


You have some pretty strange months.

[deadmanwade]

In response to the OP.
No, it sucks that they are doing it, but at least they have announced beforehand that they are doing it rather than pretending that everything is the same as usual like GW usually do.
It's not the companies growth that is causing the problem, but rather the increase in demand. You cant just extend a factory or add a dozen new machines overnight. PP need to be careful about over investing as well. The new demand could be a temporary thing (people get upset with GW, buy PP and then go back to GW as soon as the new dex comes out).
Honestly, I can see this new policy costing them a lot of the new customers that are coming their way, but as they say in the second line, this is a temporary measure. Once they get their production capacity up to the right level, they will change back to their regular service. Compare this with GW who's price increases are temporary only in as far as they will be rising again next year and it's easier to sympathise with PP. They keep their customers informed and do their best to solve their problems.

But yeah, for the immeadiate future, it sucks.

[wittdooley]

Why is this in the 40K News And Rumors section?

It might qualify for General Discussion but there is neither news nor rumor relating to 40K in this topic.

If you'd take the time to actually read through the rest of the posts, you'd see why I posted it here.

@deadmanwade: See, I don't quite understand the, "Well, at least they're telling us about this shytty policy, and that therefore makes it all okay" sentiment.

This policy is really going to hurt LGSs. I've reverted to buying nearly all of my product from Privateer online because my LGS has such a hard time getting stock in. This is only going to make it worse.

[dagonis]

To address the OP's points:

1.) I do think there would be a lot of reasonable complaining if this was the case. I have heard a great deal of complaints about PP's inability to get product into a consumer's hands. Everyone from a newbie Warmahorder to LGS managers. I don't really get the impression that anyone it saying it is ok just because it is PP. If they are, I would suspect it is a bit of "cheer on the little guy" syndrome. GW raised their prices? PP had a sale. IMO, this should buy them a little good will among their community. PP is the underdog in the miniature gaming world right now. Additionally, PP's wrongs don't absolve GW of any wrong doing. They are independent variables. People have the right to vote with their wallets, and that is what we should all do. Since the price increase I have not purchased any Citadel models. I think they are getting too expensive for what they are. I felt the previous prices were about the top of the range for me. I would like other people to stop so they GW would get the message and lower their prices. This probably won't happen, but I feel like I can't complain if I don't try and change things.

2.) As I mentioned in my previous point, I don't think people are ignoring this. You may not see it here as BoLS is a Warhammer-centric blog. They do have stuff from other games, but the majority of the material is about GW games. Then again, all my experience is local in our very vibrant Warmahordes community. I don't see a ton of complaining online. Games Workshop, reasonably and unreasonably, have inflamed the community many times. PP doesn't seem to have done that. If they keep pulling stuff like this, I am sure that there will be a contingent of players that get upset and move on to another game.

[Dyrnwyn]

1.) Last time I ordered a Direct Item from my FLGS from GW, it took 4 days to receive it. What do you think the reaction would be if GW announced shipping times for this for their "non-core" products and books. Do you think there would be a massive Shyt Storm like I do?

2.) I really enjoy Warmahordes, but this has been one of my increasing frustrations with PP. I tried to start a Gator army when they released the new models, but it was near impossible to get Gatormen Posses, a required unit for the army. Why do you think people, essentially, ignore this fact because it's Privateer?


First off, I don't know why you posted this here. I understand you are frustrated and have a complaint. 40k News isn't the place for a PP complaint.

On your first question - yes. GW would be in trouble for announcing something like that - however, that's a production issue, and GW's production capacity FAR outstrips any of their competitors. I remember when I first bough Infinity miniatures - I was quoted a 3-6 week wait time a couple years back and it took a month for the models to reach me. Currently, I've been trying to get a Haqqislam starter out of my FLGS for two months - and they can't get it shipped to them. Granted, I don't have a ton of experience outside of these three games, but to me, this just looks like what smaller companies occasionally have to deal with, and what players of GW games don't have to because GW is the industry juggernaut with production capacity above and beyond what anyone else is capable of.

Regarding the standards issue - Yes, it's different standards for different companies. I don't hold my local farmers market to the same standards I hold my local Safeway - One's a huge chain, the other is a guy in a tent selling what he grows at home. Similarly, GW is a huge, publicly traded multi-national corporation. PP is a smaller, private company. A smaller private company that is currently having trouble meeting demand, because of a huge an unexpected surge in popularity. When a business is swamped because too many people are now interested in their product, you don't get pissed off at the store, you get pissed off at the newcomers for crowding up the place. The supply issues are forgivable because the current demand was completely unforeseen. PP didn't expect their popularity to soar like it did, or GW to make multiple mistakes that basically pushed even more players into PP's games.

Moreover, to continue the analogy further - because I know the guy at the farmers market, I'll keep buying from him. We talk back and forth about what's been going good and bad, he'll tell me what's in bloom at the moment, and if he's out of apples, I don't blame him for that problem - people just wanted apples that week, and he didn't have enough. He's personable and relates to me and because I know and like him, and thus far his only problem is that he's occasionally out of stock, I'm more forgiving about his one problem and I'll buy what I can from him. I will cut him some slack on his one issue because he has explained it to me, and he has been friendly and nice to me. PP's forums, Insider, their mag, occasional sales, their business model - it all goes to fostering goodwill, and cushioning them from when theings do go wrong. And this is where the analogy starts to break down, because unlike Safeway, GW has never offered a sale, or given me bargain pricing, or earned my goodwill in any way other than producing a game I would like to play with my friends. However, they continue to raise prices on an annual basis, switched to a cheaper material in tandem with that price raise, axed major support for my favorite games in their roster, continued to ignore issues with their rules, and generally act in such a way as to actively foster ill-will from me. So when something goes wrong, I cut them no slack because they have done nothing but treat me as if I am unimportant to them if I am not purchasing something from them at that moment.



so PP lovers hate gw if it breathes but if PP charges £100000000000000 for a single mini its okay?

welcome to the internet of GW haters
0/10. Troll harder next time.

[SMC]

If it makes anyone feel better I was going to start up WM, but this has made me decide to wait until September for the two player starter set.

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, I´ll go by parts:

- Here, in Spain, when you buy on the GW´s Webstore, it takes only from 2 to 5 days for it to arrive at home safely. So I don´t understand the complain about that. Just talk to your FLGS.

- And about the usual... GW sucks, it´s devil in disguise, whines, cries, and whatever... Please STOP IT.

It´s tired to see "GW is bad" whines like in Warseer or Dakka here in EVERY THREAD, talks it about GW or about the sex of the mushrooms...

Please, GW is a business, an enterprise, and tries to make money as ALL the business do. Like PP and the other trades... Or you don´t think so???

PP has started just like GW went long ago... Just wait 5 or 10 years, maybe they become worst than your complaints about GW today.

[wittdooley]

@Dyrnwyn - Really great post, really great analogy. Please don't misunderstand; I didn't intend this thread to be a complaint; I merely wanted to gauge how people thought the reactions would differ were it GW. I should have known better :rolleyes:

I suppose that I just don't care enough about the companies I purchase goods from to look at it that way. I'm selfish, and merely look at how they treat me when something goes wrong. In this regard, GW is phenomenal. Privateer is mostly good. This announcement prevents me from easily getting product. That affects me directly, and Privateer giving me a happy ending isn't going to change that.

Again, my purpose was to get people's reactions as to how this would play out were it GW. I think it would have been massive news, and people would be berating GW for their inability to get product to the market. Granted, it would never happen because GW is better structured than any of the smaller companies, but people are finding a way to complain about only being able to order three Finecast pieces at a time.

Simply put: 6-8 weeks is a helluva long time to wait for anything these days.

[daboarder]

I think Your wrong witdooley...


Hear me out. If GW went about it their tpical way and just suddenly changed the shipping times on various items without warning then the rage would be huge. If however they let us know in advance in a similar manner to PP then I think mostly people would shrug and sa "oh well". For example GW made an early announcement on the 3 model limit of finecast and it hasn't been a major issue. Compare this to their other surprise sales tactics and you see what I mean.

then again maybe I give people to much faith

[wittdooley]

@daboarder - I think that's a really good point that I hadn't considered. Apparently people are content with any information. If GW were to give us some, albiet bad, people may be ecstatic because they typically divulge zero information.

@SMC - This is what has me worried for Privateer. They're going to lose sales because of this. I was shocked that nearly none of the Mercenary Pirate stuff is on their core list. There just seem to be a lot of things missing from that list that cripple some armies.

It's also the reason that I have no expectations or excitement for Privateer for GenCon. I don't know what to expect. They could massively overwhelm me with excitement and have numerous new products for sale, or I could be massively disappointed and they'll have nothing. I'm sure it will fall somewhere in the middle.

[Lexington]

1.) Last time I ordered a Direct Item from my FLGS from GW, it took 4 days to receive it.
I wait for weeks or months for GW products all the time - if you're in a store without a big GW presence, it can take a while for the minimum order for Direct products to accumulate. I don't blame GW for this, or the stores. It's life.


2.) I really enjoy Warmahordes, but this has been one of my increasing frustrations with PP. I tried to start a Gator army when they released the new models, but it was near impossible to get Gatormen Posses, a required unit for the army. Why do you think people, essentially, ignore this fact because it's Privateer?
Well, clearly because of the magical hexes woven into the syllables of their name. :rolleyes:

Really, I don't think this is hard. Privateer's having issues filling exploding demand, and they're doing their damnedest to solve this without compromising the quality of their product or their workforce. They've been open and communicative every step of the way, which means we, as customers, understand the situation. People complain anyway, but not as much.

Comparatively, GW's response to the production issues with Finecast has been to pretend nothing's wrong at all, publicly state how everyone loves it, and apparently try to fix things behind the scenes. If they'd just come out and said "we've messed up, apologies, we're working to fix the problem - in the meantime, please inspect your purchases carefully beforehand, and return any miscast miniatures for an exchange or a full refund," I think the community's reaction would have been much more muted. Really, that's their policy anyway - they'd just need to say the words!

[eldargal]

Well a lot of it has to do with GW, such a high proporton of the PP fanbase seem to define themselves through their dislike of GW that PP could do anything and they would still defend them to hilt.

It is actually a bad sign. Growth is good, but not being able to keep up with growth is not. GW had the same trouble in the mid 80s and they went down the corporate route(1986) in order to keep up. I'm not saying that is what PP will do, but if at some point they outgrow the 'cottage industry' stage (however many guys with machines in a whatever building) and need to upgrade to a proper factory set up, well, that is frightfully expensive and going public is a quick way to raise the money.

[Necron2.0]

Well a lot of it has to do with GW, such a high proporton of the PP fanbase seem to define themselves through their dislike of GW that PP could do anything and they would still defend them to hilt.

Ok, this is not at all directed toward Eldargal, and I do not collect PP (in fact the only specific game related minis I collect routinely are GW), but given the number of times I personally and others in general have been viciously mauled by apologists for suggesting there might be something less than perfect with GW and its products, I definitely had to laugh out loud for this. It's actually gotten to such a point that I'm quite certain some of them are on the GW payroll as paid forum trolls.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Ok, this is not at all directed toward Eldargal, and I do not collect PP (in fact the only specific game related minis I collect routinely are GW), but given the number of times I personally and others in general have been viciously mauled by apologists for suggesting there might be something less than perfect with GW and its products, I definitely had to laugh out loud for this. It's actually gotten to such a point that I'm quite certain some of them are on the GW payroll as paid forum trolls.



Spoken for truth.

[eldargal]

Well there is a lot to be said for both sides, though it doesn't help that peple frame subjective opinions on models in objective terms. 'That sucks' instead of 'I don't like that at all'.:rolleyes: Certainly GW should be criticised where it is warranted, the point is to think before criticising and not just give free reign to the hate.