Republic?

[webare]

Hey BOLSers. I've come to you for some help! So please do your best to slap me around.

I have been a fan of 40k universe for some time. I love the story/fluff. I just decided to try and start collecting my own army. One problem tho. I cant decide who i want to collect! I don't like one army but i like certain things from many so im kinda caught in this little maze -_-.

For the most part I like to try and relate the factions of the 40k universe to things that i like and decide from there. I am interested in types of government so i decided that what ever race best represents a Republic is the one ill pick but i cant decide between them. I know its a stretch but what race do you think best represents some form of republic?

[BrokenWing]

To be honest? None of them. Nothing in 40k even comes close really.

[Wildeybeast]

Short answer, none of them really.

The Imperium is a mixture of theocracy and a dictatorial beauracracy.

The Orks are primitive tribe based culture where might makes right. The forces of Chaos are in many ways more sophisticated, but also adhere to the same philosophy when it comes to who is in charge.

Tau are an almost Utopian collective, everyone working together for the greater good, under the direction of the ethereals, to produce a happy and harmonius society for all. What happens to those who don't agree with what makes a happy and harmonius society is fairly obvious.

Tyranids have no concept of government or society, nor any need for one. Ditto the Necrons.

Dark Eldar are a mercantile society where wealth is power. The currency of the realm is pain and misery.

I believe the Eldar system of governance is based on a council of the wisest guiding the fate and direction of each craftworld, though the Eldar tend to be quite indivdualistic, so the they don't really fit the republic mold.

None of the races have any kind of democratic representation or an individual say, so the republic model isn't really applicable to any. Perhaps the Tau are closest, where those or are most qualified from all areas of society get to advise the government, but the decisions are still ultimately made by a ruling elite.

[eldargal]

Craftworld Eldar governments seem to vary, one at least is an aristocratic oligarchy, I could see others ranging from republics to monarchies, democratic or otherwise.

Apart from that, Tau would be republican along the communist vein, republican party dicatorship where the Ethereals are the party.

[Gotthammer]

If you go by the dictionary defenition:


1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.

2. any body of persons viewed as a commonwealth.

3. a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.


Tau are ruled by the Etherals and 'nids have no government so both are right out.

Orks or either Eldar would be the best fit as their rulers are based on superior talent/skill (relative to their social norms) being rewarded with command, and the populace have a theoretically equal chance at assuming the same position and say in removal.

With Orks their only societal gearing is towards battle, and they only respect skill at defeating one's enemies - so he who can defeat all other challengers in combat rules. If he does a rubbish job any boy can challenge him for rule at any time.
Dark Eldar are very similar in their might makes right rule. Vecht rose up from a slave to become de facto ruler of the Dark City. People chose to support them or fight against their power.

Craftworld Eldar can apply themselves to any Path they choose, so there is no restriction aside from natural skill as to who is in charge. They seem largely ruled by their seer castes, but they have no restrictions aside from ability to acheive the highest levels of said caste. Any person seems able to petition the seers for action, but not much of this side of society has been shown.


Imperials can fit, depending on how you look at both them and a Republic. If you consider that the Roman republic was ruled by Octavian/Augustus for a large part with the senate below him a comparison could be made to the Emperor and the High Lords. Every Imperial citizen has as much theoretical chance as any other to become a High Lord, in the same way any person can one day become Prime Minister.
You could also take the the more micro view, in which case Imperial Guard could work, so long as they come from an appropriately minded world. Catachans elect their leaders for example.
Many Marine chapters seem to weigh the opinions of the whole squad/company/chapter in regards to promoting, but the word of the former commander seems to carry more weight. Though Marines have a very different mindset, so accept this willingly even if they don't like it. Then again, like IG you could create a republic minded Chapter if you wanted.
Sororitas haven't really had enough info fleshed out about their rank structure to say with much certainty.
Inquisitors hold conclaves of their peers and are possibly one of the most democratic organisations in the Imperium, at least internally.

[eldargal]

Actually Tau do fit, a state governed by an absolute ruler or a ruling caste without a monarch is still a republic. The Soviet Union under Stalin was a republic. At the same time a monarch can also be elected (the Papacy is a theocratic elected monarchy), people tend to confuse republican and democratic but they are not one and the same.

[Wildeybeast]

Imperials can fit, depending on how you look at both them and a Republic. If you consider that the Roman republic was ruled by Octavian/Augustus for a large part with the senate below him a comparison could be made to the Emperor and the High Lords. Every Imperial citizen has as much theoretical chance as any other to become a High Lord, in the same way any person can one day become Prime Minister.
You could also take the the more micro view, in which case Imperial Guard could work, so long as they come from an appropriately minded world. Catachans elect their leaders for example.
Many Marine chapters seem to weigh the opinions of the whole squad/company/chapter in regards to promoting, but the word of the former commander seems to carry more weight. Though Marines have a very different mindset, so accept this willingly even if they don't like it. Then again, like IG you could create a republic minded Chapter if you wanted.
Sororitas haven't really had enough info fleshed out about their rank structure to say with much certainty.
Inquisitors hold conclaves of their peers and are possibly one of the most democratic organisations in the Imperium, at least internally.

I have to diagree with a number of your points here.
1) The senate under augustus functioned in puppet role only, they had little to know authority.

2)Most Imperial citizens have no chance whatsoever to advance their standing in life. Most Imperial worlds work on almost a caste system, where the social strata you are born into is almost always the one you die in. The are rare exceptions, but the Imperium has no interest whatsoever in promoting talented individuals, it desires only that people do as they are told and fulfill their alloted role in maintaining the Imperium. It is a stagnant giant where all traces of individuality and creativity are crushed in the cogs of vast and uncaring galatic mechanism.
3)You could in theory make a Guard/SM army that elected it's officers, but that is really stretching the fluff. In SM chapter it is the most skilled warrior/leader who is promoted, whilst in many Guard regiments it is usually the upper ecehlons of society who command. Whether they are comptent commanders or not seems largely irrelvant. Either way, on a larger scale, they both function in the dictatorial way most armies do, where the word of the ranking officer is absolute.

[Wildeybeast]

Actually Tau do fit, a state governed by an absolute ruler or a ruling caste without a monarch is still a republic. The Soviet Union under Stalin was a republic. At the same time a monarch can also be elected (the Papacy is a theocratic elected monarchy), people tend to confuse republican and democratic but they are not one and the same.

It depends whether webare is looking for a republic in the sense of one that has simply bumped off it's monarch a la revolutionary France, or one where everyone actually gets a say, a la ancient Athens. Most people in the Tau empire have no say, nor for that matter do they have any desire to do so, they are quite content to trust their unelected ruling elite to do what is best for them and blindly follow orders.

[Gotthammer]

1) The senate under augustus functioned in puppet role only, they had little to know authority.

Just because it was a crappy republic doesn't stop it being a republic. Given what exactly a being a republic means is very vague (as you point out above), it's an academic discussion as to when Rome transitioned from Republic to Empire not really relevant here.



2)Most Imperial citizens have no chance whatsoever to advance their standing in life. Most Imperial worlds work on almost a caste system, where the social strata you are born into is almost always the one you die in. The are rare exceptions, but the Imperium has no interest whatsoever in promoting talented individuals, it desires only that people do as they are told and fulfill their alloted role in maintaining the Imperium. It is a stagnant giant where all traces of individuality and creativity are crushed in the cogs of vast and uncaring galatic mechanism.

Depending on how cynical you are the same argument could be made of western society. And very few people changed social stratas in the classical republics. Republics such as Rome and Athens also excluded huge swathes of their populations from the limited democratic processes and were rife with corruption and such like.
I can think of more stories from 40k featuring 'rags to greatness' tales than I can recall historical equivalents.



3)You could in theory make a Guard/SM army that elected it's officers, but that is really stretching the fluff. In SM chapter it is the most skilled warrior/leader who is promoted, whilst in many Guard regiments it is usually the upper ecehlons of society who command. Whether they are comptent commanders or not seems largely irrelvant. Either way, on a larger scale, they both function in the dictatorial way most armies do, where the word of the ranking officer is absolute.

It's hardly stretching the fluff: "The leader of a Deathworld Regiment or Company is usually elected by his men" - Codex Catachans (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180160_Codex__Catachans.pdf).

[SotonShades]

While the Imperium most certainly isn't a republic, individual planets and systems range across all types of governance, from tyranical dictatorships to fuedal monarchies to probably anything else you'd imagine. While Space Marines may not work (though the lodges mentioned in the Horus Heresy series may account for something more akin to a republic) you could quite easilly right up some fluff for an IG or SOB army where the commander/cannoness is more a ceremonial title so that they fit in with the main Imperial organisation.


Edit- Sorry, committed the cardinal sin of forum posting and didn't fully read all former posts before pasting the exact same sentiment...

[DarkLink]

Depending on how cynical you are the same argument could be made of western society. And very few people changed social stratas in the classical republics. Republics such as Rome and Athens also excluded huge swathes of their populations from the limited democratic processes and were rife with corruption and such like.
I can think of more stories from 40k featuring 'rags to greatness' tales than I can recall historical equivalents.


But there's a massive difference between poor opportunity and active denial. Poor kids in western nations don't have all the opportunities given to them that rich kids do, but this has nothing to do with the government dictating their path. In fact, most poor kids are, in theory at least, perfectly capable of doing well in school and getting scholarships and graduating from a quality college. The reason it is somewhat rare isn't because schools aren't doing their jobs (contrary to popular belief), but because of much fuzzier things like how the kids are raised, how they learn to deal with authority, and whether or not they take advantage of the opportunities given to them. Capitalism or the government or democracy is not somehow responsible for this.

[webare]

WOW thank you everyone so far for helping! From your guys posts/my brain this is what i have come up with so far.

Tau - They are run by the Etherals but the leaders of the cast systems come together and do make decisions as a whole if i am not mistaken. Which might I add the people in there casts support (that we know of).

Imperial Guard/ Space Marines - The electing of the leader is a start but Hitler was also elected :). Dosent make it a republic. For the most part I am not that fond of the post-heresy imperium but i am willing to work with it to get what i want out of it :).

Orks - I know you might be saying WTF? Republic? Think about it. Every Ork has a shot of being Bigger and Greener! He is elected to lead (for the most part). All Orks have "rights" that cant be taken away by a majority vote. The thing that really intrigues me is.. well for the most part Ork Bosses don't live that long so the cycle of power is always flowing and that avoids corruption.

Keep this thread going! Thanks again.

[Gotthammer]

But there's a massive difference between poor opportunity and active denial.

...

Capitalism or the government or democracy is not somehow responsible for this.

Didn't say it is - my point was that you can still have a republic that discriminates / excludes large segments of the population. Up until very recently our own goverments have discriminated who gets a say in elections on the basis of race and gender, yet they're still republics (well, mine isn't, but you get the idea ;) ).

It doesn't make it a good government from our perspective, but it doesn't stop it being classed as a republic.

[Denzark]

I respectfully disagree that Orks are republic-like. They are tribal/feudal. A Warboss is the single biggest challenger by death-combat. I have never seen a reference of a warboss replaced by a 'coup' or massive upswell of opinion - it to my best knowledge is always single combat. So to stretch to 'majority vote' is a little far.

Again Tau-communism is around your best bet - Although SOTON is probably quite right. You could have an Imperial world where the political structures are a republic planet-wide - its just there is tithing to a wider external organisation who also has power over you, such as defence, taxes, and religion.

Sounds a bit like the EU to me, eh? And most of those countries are republics.

[HsojVvad]

I am guessing the Original Poster doesn't want a Hitler or Stalin Type kind of Goverment. So any Imperial race is out because in the end they serve the Emperor and I believe nobody is elected. They are chosen. Right now, the Inquition and the Powers of Terra to me are like Hitler's minions, Stalin's Minions, Ghengis Kahn, etc etc all rolled into one. So I do not think that would be your type.

I guess you can say you have your own planet where it's a True Republic but that will be your fluff though, and I don't think you want that so that is out as well.

As was said, Tyranids would be out, since they are bascially like Ants or Bees, run by a collective mind. I am not sure about Necrons but reading what others have said, they would be out as well.

Space Marines, Imperial Guard would be out unless you make your own fluff, so they are out as well. Sisters of Battle would be out as well and Grey Knights. Again, the Notsees of the future.

Chaos would be more of a Dictatorship so I say Deamons and Chaos SM are out.

Tau, I don't think wold be a Republic. While they might have the most freedoms if you agree with what they say. Then again this is the Imperium as well. As long as you say do what the Powers of Terra say, then all is good. So Tau is out since it's more of a Caste system of old.

I thought maybe Eldar or Dark Eldar, but I don't know much about them so not sure about them.

So this would leave Orks. I didn't think Orks would be a Republic but once I started reading what alot of posters here were saying, I agree. Any Ork can be a leader. All they have to be is more stronger and powerfull than anyone else. That goes how the US, Canada or any Free World Country goes. Who every has the money can get into politics and be voted in. Same goes for Orks. Instead of money and politics, it's strength and Teeth. If you can gather enought Orks you are in Power then just like how a politician today gets enoguht people behind them you are elceted in.

For Orks if you don't have the power, the Orks will not stand behind them then.

So while the Orks are a violent race, they are the most liberal of them all. Anyone can become leader if they so choose to and try. They love to fight. They live to fight.

So I think the Orks would be the best for you. They are the most, less EVIL of all the races. They are the most liberal in where if you become the biggest, you can become a leader, not so in the Tau, Imperium. (again not sure how the Eldar and DE work).

[Lockark]

Orks - I know you might be saying WTF? Republic? Think about it. Every Ork has a shot of being Bigger and Greener! He is elected to lead (for the most part). All Orks have "rights" that cant be taken away by a majority vote. The thing that really intrigues me is.. well for the most part Ork Bosses don't live that long so the cycle of power is always flowing and that avoids corruption.


http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/3/2055/thumb_620x2000/800px-Da_warboss_Lincoln.jpg

You know what you must do.

[Crae]

The Imperium - is in my opinion a Totalitarian fascist Empire......yup...that pretty much describes it....

The Tau - are a Corporatism/technocracy with a egalitarian belief system and a Oligarchy/theocracy rule. ergo casts work together and the casts have individual leaders that are generally "leaders" via proficiency/Knowledge/Skill , but all are viewed as equals and all are ruled by the etherals absolute.

The Orks - Rule by despotism, pure and simple, despots rule as long as they are stronger and they see every one else as inferior to them. As a whole they live by Kratocracy: government by those who are strong enough to seize power through force or cunning.

The Eldar :confused: - I think they are a sociocracy ruled by the councils consisting of the different political powers of a craftworld. Decisions are made when there are no remaining "paramount objections", that is, when there is informed consent from all participants. Objections must be reasoned and argued and based on the ability of the objector to work productively toward the goals of the Craftworld.

Chaos <---->Anarchy<---->Tyranny/Despotism/Fascism/Theocracy<---->Everything negative you can think of :)

Tyranids - Well all have a say, and yet they don't ;)

Necrons - Arhmmm Necromancy ? :rolleyes:

Dark eldar - about the same as Chaos, just more organised

[Chuck777]

The Tau government is an oligarchy that keeps control over society by dividing the populous into 4 castes and uniting them under the Oligarch's banner with theocratic rhetoric.

The Imperium is simply a Theocratic Dictatorship with a massive bureaucracy.

Ork society is based upon the acquisition of prestige via the slaughtering of enemies and an individual's ability to inspire fear and loyalty from other Orks through such violence. They are not a Republic in any sense of the word, though you could call their society a Meritocracy (as long as you do not include all the smaller orkoid species).

Chaos are subject to the will of their gods.

The Dark Eldar are a mobacracy where torture, despicable acts of violence, slavery and assassination lead a chosen few to the highest echelons of society.

Tyranids are a society of one - the Hive Mind.

Necrons are the slaves of their Lords and their Gods.

Eldar government varies from Craftworld to Craftworld. Some are more council driven while others more Monarchical. Their society is by far the most egalitarian but they are not truely a Republic in the sense that we know them.

Out of them all, your best bet is the Eldar.

[Lockark]

Personaly I think the idea of a Republic of Morkinia is a amazing idea.

"Oi! I am warboss gaz chuchka. I gon' be yah gitz fairly electred warboss! Elected when I smuch in duh face of duh old warboss Gutz Freckz. Any questions?"

*Gretchin raises his hand*

*Gretchin's head is vaporized into a cloud of blood.*

"Stupid git! He shud of knowen we dun have time fur questions! we'z got'z a WWAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH to fight!"

[eldargal]

Nope, feudal theocratic empire, about as far from fascist as you can get. Fascism states the supreme authority is the state, a theocray says it is the god(s). Remember that whole God-Emperor thing.;) At the same time each planet basically runs itself so long as it pays its tithes, which is feudal, not fascist.


The Imperium - is in my opinion a Totalitarian fascist Empire......yup...that pretty much describes it....

[Wildeybeast]

Look, it all depends on what you define a republic as. The original republic was Athens where every citizen (and that excluded women, slaves, adolscents, criminals and other undesirable elements of society) had a say. They literally had a say, they could all just turn up to meetings and have a say in government policy. Of course this often didn't work, so Rome refined the model by having senators, representatives who spoke on behalf of a district. In between then and the modern period, there have been many governments which called themselves republics, but this was simply to maintain the illusion that the majority of the populace was enfranchised, when in fact it was a small elite making decisions, it was just a different elite to the one that had been making all the decisions before (revoluntionary France, USSR etc). More modern Republics such as France and the USA have got back towards the original model.

So if you want a 40k republic along the original idea and ethos, there isn't one, no matter how much you try to shoehorn it in. The 40k universe is in a constant state of war and in war luxuries such as univeral representation quickly go out the window. If you want to be a republic where the illusion of democracy is maintained but in reality decisions are made by an unelected elite, then Tau or one of the Imperial forces is the one for you.

[eldargal]

You are confusing Athenian direct democracy with republic though. Athenian democracy had citizens voting for public official, it was a republic because there was no king. They could have elected a king and been a democratic elected monarchy, they could have had a tyrant (like Syracuse) and still be a republic. Heck they could have had a king and elected officials and still be democratic just not republican.

The Roman Republic was a republic but it was not particularly democratic, it had democatic elements but it also had strong oligarchic elements.

The USA is a democratic republic, much to the disgust of the Founding Fathers who distrusted democracy as mob rule. They just wanted a republic. France is also a democratic republic. Great Britain is a democratic (constitutional) monarchy, with elected officials chosen by the entirety of the populace, who all have a say in government policy.

People also tend to confuse modern democracies with universal suffrage with democracy. Britain was a democracy in 1707 at the Union even though only a fraction of the populace had a vote. The USA in 1776 was a democracy even though only white males with property could vote. Why? Because democracy was invented in Athens, and only males born in the city to parents born in the city could vote. The idea of everyone participating (universal suffrage) is an Enlightenment idea that didn't catch on until quite late (1920 in the USA, 1928 in Britain, 1946 for France).

[Wildeybeast]

So in other words, there is no fixed definition of what a republic is. Getting back to webare's original post, we need him to define what he thinks a republic is before we can really advise him as to what army best fits with what he wants.

[eldargal]

No there is, any form of government without a monarch. But yes it depends on what his conception of a republic is in this context. Tau are republican along the Soviet line, Orks along the tribal line, but if he wants a modern democratic republic with full sufrage, then there isn't one.

[webare]

I was searching for any form of republic. The Tau and Orks are the ones i am most interested in. Now i just need to make up my own mind on which one to pick. Thanks for everyone's help!

From reading posts on the forms i know the Tau are mainly a ranged army with no decent assault phase. As the for the Orks you can "tune" them to your needs. If i am mistaken please redirect me on this one. I am brand new to the table top! Any info about how the 2 army's generally play would be helpful.

[Lockark]

That has a bit to do with the age of the books, and the design philosophy the books were written with.

If the meta of your local gaming environment Favors 5th ed mec, then Tau can game the meta realy well.
(Your bassicly looking at 2 Hammerheads, 3 Broadsides, Kroot "bubble wrap", Some Fire Warrioirs, and a unit of path finders.) But the problem is you only have like.

In my local meta game the best list has been dubbed "Kroot Bubble Wrap". The list is generally two hammer heads, a squad of fire warriors, path finders, a squad of 2-3 broadsides, ect. You delploy your army and wrap it in a kroot meat Armour.
=B


Basically what I'm saying with tau is. It's not even worth it to try and write your own list. Just find a good 5th ed Tau list on the internet. This is my honest opinion. Tau can be very competitive, but unless you know exactly how to do that it's not going to happen. A Net list and strategy guide to playing said net list is your best bet with Tau.




Orks on the other hand were released at the very end of 4th, meant for the release of 5th edition. Their are very few units in the book that are out right bad, and you can generally take what ever you want and it can work. This is a list you can have allot of fun with. Their also forgiving enough that they make a good starter army.

If your new to table to gaming I would realy suggest the orks. I recently started playing them after getting tired of my Emperor's Children CSM, and their just a plain old fun army to play. Both for new layers and vets alike.
XD

If your REALLY have your heart set out of Tau, keep in mind that the tau will probably be getting a new book early next year.

[Wildeybeast]

I've had my heart set on Tau for many years, to the extent I bought and army and even played with it on several occasions. They suck, unless, as Lockark says, you build them in a very specific (and non-fun) way. Get orks, or wait until the new Tau codex comes out and hope it makes them good.

[Crae]

Nope, feudal theocratic empire, about as far from fascist as you can get. Fascism states the supreme authority is the state, a theocray says it is the god(s). Remember that whole God-Emperor thing.;) At the same time each planet basically runs itself so long as it pays its tithes, which is feudal, not fascist.

I can see where the "Feudal theocracy" comes from, but the Impire isn't ruled by the Emperor, who is God divine, but by the Highlords. The public might think they are ruled by the "Emperor divine", but in reality it is propaganda and they are ruled by the highlords. While each world within the empire might be under separate rule, they are still obliged to follow the imperial edict and they are not free to leave or have different opinions other then "The Imperial truth".

I originally wrote ...with Theocracy tendencies, but the reality is, that it doesn't have much to do with that any more. "The divine god emperor" has become more of a state ideology/religion, but in reality has little say (Ecclesiarchy has one seat with the Highlords council). The Imperial ideology is forced upon all within the Impire and all who oppose the Imperial rule is by force removed. They decide what to think, believe, if you are race pure and so on.
So Totalitarian and Fascist defiantly apply to the Imperium. On top of that a Theocracy is in general perceived to be ruled by a religious elite of some form or another and I suspect that allot of the ruling elite in the Impire does not believe as such in the "Divine god Emperor", but they wont dare to oppose the Imperial ideology, that being the Emperor as "Divine" and the Imperial truth to be THE ideology and only way, since they will, by force, be removed. So they act within the system, as best they can. You are a free within the Imperium...as long as you follow the Imperial ideology....diverge and you will be "Taught the right way". The true might of the Impire is the common ideology and the fear to diverge from it.


Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible. Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that is often marked by personality cultism, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

Fascism is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology.Fascists advocate the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy including eugenics. Fascists seek to purge forces, ideas, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration and produce their nation's rebirth based on commitment to the national community based on organic unity where individuals are bound together by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. Fascists believe that a nation requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the state.

Fascists promote violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.Fascists view conflict as a fact of life that is responsible for all human progress. Fascists exalt militarism as providing positive transformation in society, in providing spiritual renovation, education, instilling of a will to dominate in people's character, and creating national comradeship through military service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy. Geopolitically, the term empire has denoted very different, territorially-extreme states — at the strong end, the extensive Spanish Empire (16th c.) and the British Empire, at the weak end, the Holy Roman Empire (8th c.–19th c.), in its medieval and early-modern forms.

Etymologically, the political usage of empire denotes a strong, centrally-controlled nation-state, but in the looser vernacular usage, it can denote a large-scale business enterprise (i.e. a transnational corporation) and a political organisation of either national-, regional- or city scale, controlled either by a person (a political boss) or a group authority (political bosses).[1]

An imperial political structure is established and maintained two ways: (i) as a territorial empire of direct conquest and control with force (direct, physical action to compel the emperor’s goals), and (ii) as a coercive, hegemonic empire of indirect conquest and control with power (the perception that the emperor can physically enforce his desired goals). The former provides greater tribute and direct political control, yet limits further expansion because it absorbs military forces to fixed garrisons. The latter provides less tribute and indirect control, but avails military forces for further expansion.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire

[eldargal]

The Imperium isn't a single party state though. If anything the High Lords are the equivalent of a medieval kings council, or regency council. The way the Imperium is structured is feudal, not fascist.

Iran is a theocracy and yet is isn't ruled by god either, it doesn't matter the state justifies its control through the religion, just as the Imperium does. A fascist state justifies its control because it holds the supreme authority is the state. That alone debars the Imperium from being fascist.

The Imperium is certainly totalitarian, but it is equally certainly feudal. Each planet is largely independent and left alone so long as it pays its tithes. There is very little direct involvement of the central bureaucracy (Adeptus Administratum) in the day to day lives of the citizens. They pay their tithes ot the planetary lord, their feudal lord, who pays the alotted share on to the central authority. The Imperial Guard are forces maintain by the planet in the form of a military tihe, just like in Feudal Europe where each lord was expected to maintain armed forces on behalf of the supreme ruler.

You then have the Ecclesiarchy with its own armed forces (again anathema to fascism, they took the monopolisation of force very seriously) with its own worlds and tithes. You have the Space Marines, private armies largely indepednent of the state but dedicates to its protection (militant orders, another point to feudal, see above for private armies being anathema to fascism). Etcetera

[Lockark]

I've had my heart set on Tau for many years, to the extent I bought and army and even played with it on several occasions. They suck, unless, as Lockark says, you build them in a very specific (and non-fun) way. Get orks, or wait until the new Tau codex comes out and hope it makes them good.

In all honesty with Assault on Black Reach being discontinued in a year from now (I.E. Next summer with 6th ed, and new starter set.) right now is a very good time to start Orks. Orks are also one of the cheaper armies to collect if you plan your purchases correctly.

If you want my honest opinion. He should just start collecting orks now. By the time a new Tau Codex comes out, the Ork army would be well finished. I just checked the more recent rumors and saw that Tau would not be getting updated until 6th ed. Witch means you have a good year plus before that book comes out. =S

Sad as it is to say. In respect to gameing thier is very little reason to collect Tau over orks. More verity in how you build your list, the book dosen't suffer from mono-build, a better army to learn to play the game with. (Unless you REALY prefer the model range of the Tau over the orks. Never collect a army were you dislike the model range. You've got to build and paint a army of thows suckers after all. Might as well be the suckers you like the look of most!)

[condottiere]

I think the Gretchin are ready for a Republican model of government:

1. French Revolution - they overthrow Ork aristocracy and institute a reign of terror, until a shorter than normal Gretchin takes over the reins of power.

2. American Revolution - they expel Orks from some of their outlying planetary bodies and form a union pursuing happiness.

3. Russian Revolution - The Eldar brainwash a Gretchin with a goatee; he's followed by one with a moustache who successfully repels Imperium incursions.

[Lockark]

3. Russian Revolution - The Eldar brainwash a Gretchin with a goatee; he's followed by one with a moustache who successfully repels Imperium incursions.

http://www.shop.microartstudio.com/goblins-troopers-soviet-set-10-p-287.html

http://www.shop.microartstudio.com/goblins-generals-soviet-set-p-291.html

Very fun modles. Seen alot of people do count-as guard with them.

[Crae]

First of, sorry for derailing the discussion a bit, but it has gotten very interesting :).
Secondly I agree with most about Eldar being your best bet for a Republic way of thinking
Thirdly I would recommend Ork's as the best army to start out with, as they are fun, fast to learn (depending on build of cause) and straight up super cool and really forgiving to paint (Nobody expects a ork trukk to have an expert paint job after all :) ).

and lastly yo Eldargal:

The Imperium IS a single party state. The definition of single party, is that there is no other political group then that party, there is no political opposition. There might be different interest groups in the party, but all power is by de facto with the Highlords council. They decides who can join and who cant, with certain seats fixed. There is and wont ever be a "opposition" in the Highlords council. Just because there is different interest represented in Highlords council, doesn't mean its not single party. Single party means there is no opposition to the current ruling party. The Impire doesn't allow any political opposition to the imperial way. They will in fact squash any opposition or force it into submission.

Facism doesn't mean there is no divine/religious aspect or disallows it. Certainly it has played a big aspect in many early fascist states, especially the heightening of a "charismatic individual" to something godlike like, Mousolini, Stalin, Hitler to mention a few.

Not to mention that Mousoline had to accept and incorporate the Roman catholic church with certain restrictions into his state, even thou he was very anti religion and an atheist (like the Emperor was) but he couldn't get the Italians to "not belive" and had to accept them as a part of the state. Kinda reminds me of "The Emperor god divine" movement that flared up during and after the Heresy, that the leaders couldn't ignore, even thou they where against it ? :)

The whole "One truth, one peopleall under one rule" ideology, is very fascist. All thou it might not affect individual planets day to day workings, they are required to be pro Impire and they have no say what so ever when it comes to being under the rule of the Impire.

While I can agree see certain aspects of the feudal system, applies to the Impire I still don't see it as feudal, since the feudal system is build on the principal of a lord, vassal and fief. The king grants some one land and in return they provide taxes, military power and rule the land. The vassals represent the law and they control military power and so on in their tief. But because each tief has military power, they represent a significant power, and if several where to go together, they are powerful enough to take power for them self and that is where the Feudal system doesn't apply to the Impire. The king is ruler and head of state, the barons, dukes and so on, his sword to keep his underlings in place. His power ultimately rest in his vassals being loyal to him and their in, they posses a certain amount of political power. A King only rules as long as he is powerful enough, having strong enough vassals that no one else will oppose him, as we have seen often enough, through out history, vassals at time become so powerful them self, that they become kings/rulers that via military or economic might.
The rulers of a planet represent no power, since if they where to oppose the Impire they would just be removed and strong armed into submission or annihilated.

I don't disagree on the Empereor being God, but the ruling party isn't in power via the divine (even thou they want others to think they are - propaganda) but via all dominating military and political power. Several parts of the Imperial system is directly anti-religious like several of the Spacemarine chapters and the Adeptus Mechanicum. A totalitarian theocracy with a monotheistic god wouldn't allow that, if they where in power (As we saw with Gorge Vandir declaring the Mechanicum and Spacemarines heretics).

Fascism can allow for several parties to have a certain amount of power, as long as they defer to their rule ultimately. Several facist states allow other parties to form, but they have no say other then to advise or discus things and they all have to be supportive of the state, opposition isn't tolerated.

The Impire is a Empire and it is in my opinion ruled by a fascist totalitarian state.

Impire = rule by fear, propaganda, terror and total power by the single party central government, that has unlimited power and no opposition.

Stalin is still perceived by many former soviet citizens to be a hero.....we might know differently, but they only heard and saw what his propaganda machine told about him..........

ps. I apologise if my English is bad,it isn't my first language.
pps. We are probably going to have to end with agreeing to disagree :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state


The Imperium isn't a single party state though. If anything the High Lords are the equivalent of a medieval kings council, or regency council. The way the Imperium is structured is feudal, not fascist.

Iran is a theocracy and yet is isn't ruled by god either, it doesn't matter the state justifies its control through the religion, just as the Imperium does. A fascist state justifies its control because it holds the supreme authority is the state. That alone debars the Imperium from being fascist.

The Imperium is certainly totalitarian, but it is equally certainly feudal. Each planet is largely independent and left alone so long as it pays its tithes. There is very little direct involvement of the central bureaucracy (Adeptus Administratum) in the day to day lives of the citizens. They pay their tithes ot the planetary lord, their feudal lord, who pays the alotted share on to the central authority. The Imperial Guard are forces maintain by the planet in the form of a military tihe, just like in Feudal Europe where each lord was expected to maintain armed forces on behalf of the supreme ruler.

You then have the Ecclesiarchy with its own armed forces (again anathema to fascism, they took the monopolisation of force very seriously) with its own worlds and tithes. You have the Space Marines, private armies largely indepednent of the state but dedicates to its protection (militant orders, another point to feudal, see above for private armies being anathema to fascism). Etcetera

[eldargal]

No, the Imperium is a no party state. They don't even pay lipservice to the idea that the people are important in the decision making process like Communism and Fascism do.

Your description of feudalism is exactly how the planets in the Imperium are run, with the planetary lord being the feudal lord, the High Lords being the equivalent of the ruling council and the Emperor the Divine King at the top.;)

We will have to agree to disagree yes, I see totalitarian aspects but I see no fascist aspects. Not in the Imperium as a whole anyway, some armies and planets etc are depicted as having fascist elements.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I am a nid player myself, but here is my take on the idea of orks vs tau.

if you are a new player, tau can and are very unforgiving, and you have to pretty much know what your doing to succeed with them. they are very ranged and if you dont constantly move or protect your ranged units your pretty boned, and deeps strike can really **** your world up, as can outflanking.

orks are easy to learn, and if you make a mistake you can make up for it. they have a lot of random crazy shinanegans that are just funny to watch because of how they work. from my understanding they are really easy to learn, and have lots of viable options to play around with.

hell as for painting they are very forgiving, you can pretty much do what you want as long as you make their skin green and splash some red in here and there. hell ive seen kill a kans made from old GW paint pots, or a Stompa walker made from a Mr. Potatoe head. really ive seen people only buy GW models for their infantry, and build their trucks out of cheap toy trucks from toys r us with a little conversion with plasticard and painting to make it look orky. i mean the sky is the limit with creativity with the orks, and that is the nice part about them. they arent my style and thus i probably wont play them myself, but should a friend ever ask me to help them make their ork army, i would be happy to help.

btw, as for the mr potatoe head titan, ill link it below
http://www.irondogstudios.com/images/tater/mek_tater.html

hell just being able to do that is almost enough to make me want to play orks, than i remember how hyper masculine they are and im turned off. but i would love to do things like this just for fun. this is like the epitome of epic conversion

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Damn Eldargal, are you a political science grad student or something? I'm not being sarcastic when I say you seem to know your stuff.

[eldargal]

I studied a little politics at university yes, but not as part of my degree. A lot of it comes from my interest in history and my own families history.

[celestialatc]

I know everyone is kind of writing off chaos because they see them as dictatorships and that is mostly true of the Original Traitor Legions. But you could make a renegade SM legion of chaos (or space marines or IG) that have turned from the Imperium to bring a republic society totheir system. Maybe your legion thinks their system should have an autonomous rule and that they are the only ones who should control their destiny. You could make up your own heroes based on historical figures from democratic revolutions like Chapter Master George Washington, Librarian Maximilien Robespierre or Commissar Simon Bolivar.

[Crae]

Fascism and Communism was initially based on the working class having a say, but as they evolved they both turned into something else. Both fascism and communism in their worst form gave NO power to the individual citizen. It was the power holders that decided for them. Their Ideology was to be followed or you where an enemy of the state. As I said, Mussolini had to give way for the Roman catholic church, since he couldn't force people into not believing in god. The whole story of the imperium screams ****sm/fascism with certain aspects of Stalin's soviet.....its a very very grey world.

Being a vassal means you in return sit on a large amount of power and represent a certain political power in the nation.....in the Imperium a planet ruler might be powerful on that planet, but as a whole to the Imperium, he is more or less just the janitor....
Feudalism implies the sharing of power...the Imperium doesn't share, they monopolise it. The Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicum are necessary evils to the state, just like the catholic church and the private landowners and industrial powers where in Mussolini's fascist italy.

By definition: An empire is a group of states or peoples under the control of a centralized ruling authority

Definition of EMPIRE
1
a (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state (2) : the territory of such a political unit

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empire

The system by which the Impire holds control over its territories is definitely the Imperial model. The Impire was after all conquered and dominated via Imperialism and the planets where either by wish (or no choise) or force brought under Imperial rule.

Empire not feudal......


But again...We got to agree to disagree. I just think you see the Imperium a bit more rosy then I do :p.





No, the Imperium is a no party state. They don't even pay lipservice to the idea that the people are important in the decision making process like Communism and Fascism do.

Your description of feudalism is exactly how the planets in the Imperium are run, with the planetary lord being the feudal lord, the High Lords being the equivalent of the ruling council and the Emperor the Divine King at the top.;)

We will have to agree to disagree yes, I see totalitarian aspects but I see no fascist aspects. Not in the Imperium as a whole anyway, some armies and planets etc are depicted as having fascist elements.

[Thornblood]

Orks iz a democracy. A potential warboss puts himself forward for election. There is then a contest held between the two candidates (with headbutting replacing thinking). Then the orks vote by following who they think is the stronger candidate (normally because the opposition is now dead). Whilst Orks seem to govern through "oo's da biggest" and might makes right, they do flock around those they want to follow. The society/government dosn't force them to follow a specific warboss, they seem to simply choose. Sometimes there is only a choice of one because the biggest one has killed the other opponents.

Of Course Ghazagkull is a different matter. Due to his religious connotations.

:D

[Lockark]

Orks iz a democracy. A potential warboss puts himself forward for election. There is then a contest held between the two candidates (with headbutting replacing thinking). Then the orks vote by following who they think is the stronger candidate (normally because the opposition is now dead). Whilst Orks seem to govern through "oo's da biggest" and might makes right, they do flock around those they want to follow. The society/government dosn't force them to follow a specific warboss, they seem to simply choose. Sometimes there is only a choice of one because the biggest one has killed the other opponents.

Of Course Ghazagkull is a different matter. Due to his religious connotations.

:D

Also remember. Their is also the notion of what is "orky". Orks will reject a warboss who is not holding up his obligations as warboss. (They showed it in some of the Dawn of War games when the Orks rebel ageist their warboss.)

[condottiere]

Orkish Republics:

Closest historical equivalent is chimpanzee extended family group, warband and Banana Republic, where the Generalissimo is President for Life, while keeping a close eye on ambitious subordinates and competing interest groups and inter tribal rivalry.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Orkish Republics:

Closest historical equivalent is chimpanzee extended family group, warband and Banana Republic, where the Generalissimo is President for Life, while keeping a close eye on ambitious subordinates and competing interest groups and inter tribal rivalry.

So much like the US state of Arkansas then?