Tragedy In Norway, At Least 92 People Dead

[Brass Scorpion]

A horrible tragedy. The jerk's "manifesto" is 1500 pages long. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20082587-503543.html

Excerpt:

Anders Behring Breivik has apparently confessed to being the perpetrator of the twin attacks in Norway this weekend that killed at least 92 people.

The 32-year-old Norwegian reportedly gave up as soon as he was approached by police on Utoya Island near Oslo, but that was only after he had spent 90 minutes shooting at everything he could there.

About two hours before the massive bomb he built went off in Oslo, killing at least 7, Breivik apparently put the finishing touches on his 1,500-page manifesto, which was an accompaniment to his 12-minute long video...

[gwensdad]

I'm sick of the American media coverage of this. When this first happened, every news outlet was calling it an "obvious" muslim terrorist attack. Hours latter when the guy got captured and was reveled he was called himself "Christian" (no way in hell he is) every media outlet here rewrote their stories so it wasn't a "terrorist attack".
It was just one wacko, no conspiracy or global "WAR!" on "the west". And then when a singer dies, the media practically ignored Norway for a few hours.

[DarkLink]

I'm not sure if jerk is quite the right word.

[bknesal]

Honestly, it really hurts to read about this. What goes on in some peoples' minds is just beyond my understanding.

[scadugenga]

Now this is a true tragedy.

92 people dead, without any direct reason or justification. Just because they were unlucky to be within the sights of a lunatic.

[Psychosplodge]

And then when a singer dies, the media practically ignored Norway for a few hours.

Singer?
Oh right drug addled media whore ....

Plus most of them have probably barely heard of Norway before:eek:

[ankhcitizen]

I can't believe the maximum prison sentence in Norway is only 21 years! though I hear the judge can extend it. The man is a monster, who believes going to jail is simply part of his plan to spread his "manifesto" he won't reform in 21 years, he won't repent or ask for forgiveness. In two decades the families of those murdered will still be stricken in mourning while that ... may walk free.

I read in this morning's paper that apparently the Norwegian intelllience community was monitoring him when he appeared on their radar for buying certain chemical components online. unfortunately he had a good record so he was ignored. I shudder to think how many others around the world are ignored. Its not the raving mad violent terrorists who succeed but the quiet ones.

I'm not saying everyone should blame the intelligence service or that certain freedoms should be revoked, however the intelligence services should get a funding boost, intelligence is useless if it isn't acquired and acted upon.

[Brass Scorpion]

Suspect profile: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259989


Anders Behring Breivik, the 32-year-old charged with carrying out Friday's deadly attacks in Norway, harboured radical right-wing views, railing against what he saw as a Marxist Islamic takeover of Europe.

While he openly expressed these views online, there was little to indicate that the young man - described by friends as quiet, friendly and ordinary - would go on to kill dozens of people, many in cold blood.

The turning point seems to have come in his late 20s, when his paranoia grew about the "Islamisation of western Europe" and the perceived failure of his country's political leadership to stop its advance at home.

Lars Buehler, a Norwegian scholar and terrorism expert, said he had debated with Breivik on an extremist website frequented by what he calls xenophobes and Islamaphobes all over Europe.

"I was the single opposing voice, arguing against the xenophobic, Islamaphobic postings and comments that were the norm on this page, and Breivik did not stand out with a particularly aggressive or violent rhetoric. He was quite mainstream," Mr Buehler said.

Mr Breivik was also a member of a Swedish neo-**** internet forum called Nordisk, according to Expo, a Swedish group monitoring far-right activity.
'Policy of hatred'

It is his diary - which forms part of his dense, wordy manifesto - that gives a chilling insight into the thought processes of Mr Breivik.

In it, he describes how in early May he had prepared and stored his equipment for the attack. He talks of his paranoia at the number of police vehicles he sees near his home, wondering where he would hide were they to pay him a visit.

"It's one of the scariest documents I've ever read," forensic clinical psychologist Ian Stephen told the BBC.
Continue reading the main story
Anders Behring Breivik

* Manifesto details attacks

"It's written by a man who is absolutely meticulous in his development of his philosophy and he has researched everything, obviously shut away for a long period of time reading, researching, digging into the internet, reading books," said the psychologist.

"[He] formulated this absolute policy of hatred of anything that is non-Nordic in a sense, and looking at planning how to take over the world [in a] rather insane, over-complicated deluded manner."

A 12-minute anti-Muslim video called Knights Templar 2083, in which images of Mr Breivik appear, was also discovered online.

Mr Breivik appears to have created entries on social networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter, though the accounts were set up just days ago on 17 July.

On the Facebook page attributed to him, he describes himself as a Christian and a conservative. The Facebook page is no longer available but it also listed interests such as bodybuilding and freemasonry.

A Twitter account attributed to the suspect has also emerged but it only has one post, which is a quote from philosopher John Stuart Mill: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."
'Price of treason'

Mr Breivik had no military background except for ordinary national service, and no criminal record. Police say he put down his weapon when told to, after a shooting spree which lasted about 90 minutes.

According to court officials, Mr Breivik said that he was trying to "save Norway and western Europe from cultural Marxism and a Muslim takeover."

He has admitted to carrying out the twin attacks, but has not pleaded guilty to charges of terrorism.

"The objective of the attacks was to give a 'sharp signal' to people," said the judge in the case, Kim Heger.

"The accused explained that the Labour Party has failed the country and the people and the price of their treason is what they had to pay."

His 1,500-page manifesto - authored by "Andrew Berwick", the Anglicised version of his name - gives a detailed account of the author's "preparation phases", apparently for an "armed struggle" which he says seems "futile at this point but... is the only way forward".

The manifesto, called 2083: A European Declaration of Independence, minutely elaborates the author's belief that a process of "Islamisation" is under way.

During this preparation, the author details how he sets up front companies to allow the purchase of fertiliser, which can be used in bomb-making, and the steps he takes to obtain powerful guns - including joining a firearms club in 2005 to increase his chances to obtain a Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol six years later.

He also claims to have bought three bottles of 1979 vintage French wine, and decides to open one with his family at Christmas as his "martyrdom operation draws ever closer".

On Saturday it was confirmed that Mr Breivik was previously a member of the right-wing Progress Party (FrP), the second largest party in Norway's parliament.

He was also a member of the FrP youth wing from 1997 to 2006/2007. He deleted his membership in 2007.
'Ordinary boy'

Mr Breivik was born on 13 February 1979 in London, where his father, a diplomat, had been stationed at the time. Jens Breivik - long estranged from his son - has expressed shock at the crime.

"I view this atrocity with absolute horror," he was quoted as saying by London's Daily Telegraph newspaper from his home in south-west France.

He divorced Anders' mother, a nurse, when their child was one year old, moved to Paris and married again. From then on, he had limited contact with the boy.

"When he was young, he was a very ordinary boy. He was not interested in politics at the time," Jens Breivik said.

Their relationship broke down when Anders was a teenager, and the father and son have not spoken since then.

Anders Behring Breivik said on his Facebook page that he was a student at Oslo Handelsgymnasium, a high school that specialises in business studies, Norwegian media reported. He also claimed to have educated himself beyond that, but not through any formal educational establishment.

A school friend told Norwegian TV he did not recognise him as the boy he knew.

"One of his good work-out buddies was from the Middle East, and it seems as though they were good friends all through junior high school, and hung out a lot together," Michael Tomala said.

"It seems as though he has taken a completely different direction than what we knew of him from junior high school."

The Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang quoted another friend as saying that the suspect turned to right-wing extremism in his late 20s.

He later appears to have moved out of the city and established Breivik Geofarm, a company Norwegian media is describing as a farming sole proprietorship set up to cultivate vegetables, melons, roots and tubers.

A supply company has come forward to say that it delivered six tonnes of fertiliser to this company in May - an ingredient used in bomb-making.

In his first comment after his arrest, Mr Breivik said via his lawyer that the attacks were "atrocious, but necessary" to defeat liberal immigration policies and the spread of Islam.

Mr Breivik is being held in an Oslo jail pending his trial on charges of terrorism.

[DarkLink]

I vote for the osama bin laden treatment, though it's a little late now.

Unfortunately, there will always be the occasional random crazy person willing to do something like this, and with no or few links to more organized terror groups it's very hard to catch people like this before it's too late. And since the police can't be everywhere at once... maybe Norway should introduce a concealed carry permit system. If the right person happened to be in the right place at the right time, it might have saved a lot of lives.

[Brass Scorpion]

maybe Norway should introduce a concealed carry permit system. If the right person happened to be in the right place at the right time, it might have saved a lot of lives. When that guy went crazy in Arizona a few months ago and shot several people including a member of US Congress, an armed citizen was nearby and he almost shot the wrong person. One of the bystanders who disarmed the shooter was threatened by the armed citizen who mistook him for the culprit. It's why we need trained law enforcement people carrying weapons and shooting perps if necessary, not a bunch of gun-toting citizens with their opinions of when it's okay to shoot someone. The idea that a massively armed citizenry will cut down on violent crime is for the most part right-wing fantasy nonsense. Places with more guns have more violence and higher casualty rates from it. Yeah, crazy people kill people with knives, cudgels, ropes, poison, etc., but not seven or eight dozen in twenty minutes.

[eldargal]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/norway-attacks-girls-terrified-texts-mum-170638841.html

This whole thing is too horrible.


I'd rather they didn't take take ten years to catch him personally.

I vote for the osama bin laden treatment, though it's a little late now.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

As for the media coverage in america, that does not surprise me at all. Someone does crazy things they attack him as a terrorist of Muslim faith in this country faster than you can say "oh crap", but the second they find out its a christian "shut that up or people will link it to us". It is a common occurance really, they either call someone a muslim or an atheist, and the second they profess they are christian, they either go with the "shut this story up" method or the "he wasn't a true christian" method, both are equally inane.

This was a tragedy done by a single extremist with superiority issues, it is not indicative of all of one group, but people don't think like that in America and it makes me sad that my fellow citizenry is this easilly duped and this stupid.

[DarkLink]

I don't know if I'd go blaming it on muslim/christian relations. There's a lot of terrorism going on, and currently a significant portion of it is muslim. The news anchors say something stupid and uninformed (which they do all the time in other areas of the news), then stuff their foot in their mouth when they get called out. Never blame on malice what can be explained by incompetence.

[Psychosplodge]

I don't know if I'd go blaming it on muslim/christian relations. There's a lot of terrorism going on, and currently a significant portion of it is muslim. The news anchors say something stupid and uninformed (which they do all the time in other areas of the news), then stuff their foot in their mouth when they get called out. Never blame on malice what can be explained by incompetence.

Never blame on incompetence what can be blamed on malice.

works far better lol

[scadugenga]

As for the media coverage in america, that does not surprise me at all. Someone does crazy things they attack him as a terrorist of Muslim faith in this country faster than you can say "oh crap", but the second they find out its a christian "shut that up or people will link it to us". It is a common occurance really, they either call someone a muslim or an atheist, and the second they profess they are christian, they either go with the "shut this story up" method or the "he wasn't a true christian" method, both are equally inane.

This was a tragedy done by a single extremist with superiority issues, it is not indicative of all of one group, but people don't think like that in America and it makes me sad that my fellow citizenry is this easilly duped and this stupid.

Well--to be accurate and honest--someone who murders innocent people for whatever effed up reason by definition "isn't a true christian."

But by the same token--the 9/11 bombers and every other whackjob suicide bomber terrorist is also, by definition, "not a true muslim."

What the country failed to accurately do, after the 9/11 attack, was showcase just how much real muslims condemned that attack and those who perpetrated it.

Whackjobs will out, whatever their professed belief system.

Just look at Branch Davidians, the Michigan Militia, umpteen whatever terrorist cells in the Arabic world, what have you.

Remember, we are only a few centuries past the time when protestant and catholics murdered each other in the street like it was the world's greatest spectator sport/passtime.

[DarkLink]

But by the same token--the 9/11 bombers and every other whackjob suicide bomber terrorist is also, by definition, "not a true muslim."


Awkwardly, this is kinda not true. While there are plenty of schools of thought (mainly in western Muslims) that focus on peace, there is also plenty of stuff in the Qur'an that can be used to justify killing infidel. It really depends pretty heavily on how a particular society interprets the Qur'an. In fact, there are some significant cultural differences even between Iraq and Afghanistan that have caused issues with the wars there. Even the non-terrorists still believe that infidel should never enter a muslim household, and especially not a mosque. While there is a degree of room for interpretation, that wiggle room goes both ways.

Of course, I'm no Muslim scholar or anything.

[scadugenga]

Awkwardly, this is kinda not true. While there are plenty of schools of thought (mainly in western Muslims) that focus on peace, there is also plenty of stuff in the Qur'an that can be used to justify killing infidel. It really depends pretty heavily on how a particular society interprets the Qur'an. In fact, there are some significant cultural differences even between Iraq and Afghanistan that have caused issues with the wars there. Even the non-terrorists still believe that infidel should never enter a muslim household, and especially not a mosque. While there is a degree of room for interpretation, that wiggle room goes both ways.

Of course, I'm no Muslim scholar or anything.

I worked for a university at the time of the 9/11 attacks. One of the things I was fortunate enough to be able to do is speak with a number of muslims leaders within the community, and they were horrified at the events on 9/11.

Islamic thought is pretty alien to non-muslims, though--I'll give you that.

[condottiere]

One of the primary differences between Muslim and Christian, or even Buddhist or Hindu, is that once you're in, you're in for life, and not even death releases you.

Whereas almost anyone can convert, lapse or turn atheist. Muslims aren't allowed to, nor are they allowed to marry non-Muslims. Almost all Muslims who convert have to disappear, otherwise members of their family and community will murder them. That's not something a Western society would tolerate, and many Muslims feel that for family honour they are willing to go to jail to kill the convert (whereas they would be given a pass in Muslim majority countries).

That's not to say it doesn't happen in other religions, though in India it has more to do with crossing the caste line, it just that this tendency is more ingrained in a Muslim mindset, even in lip service, since a substantial number do not follow all or even most of the rules set out in the Islamic religion, but prefer that their actions aren't too closely scrutinized by their community.

[eldargal]

There is plenty of that sort of thing in the Old Testament though, including exhortations to rape and conduct genocide. Not to mention Christian nations conquered around 80% of the world in the nineteenth century.

Infidels not entering homes and mosques is pure nonsense, I'm technically an infidel and on trips to Morocco, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar and Dubai I and my family have been invited into homes and allowed to enter mosques to look around without hesitation whatsover. It is even forbidden under Islamic law to call Jews and Christians infidels, because they believe in God.

The fact is most of the problems with Islam (fundamentalism) are not doctrinal.


Awkwardly, this is kinda not true. While there are plenty of schools of thought (mainly in western Muslims) that focus on peace, there is also plenty of stuff in the Qur'an that can be used to justify killing infidel. It really depends pretty heavily on how a particular society interprets the Qur'an. In fact, there are some significant cultural differences even between Iraq and Afghanistan that have caused issues with the wars there. Even the non-terrorists still believe that infidel should never enter a muslim household, and especially not a mosque. While there is a degree of room for interpretation, that wiggle room goes both ways.

Of course, I'm no Muslim scholar or anything.

[scadugenga]

Muslims aren't allowed to, nor are they allowed to marry non-muslims.

Really?

I know of Muslim/non-Muslim marriages. I even know (which is shocking, and may be unique to Chicago) muslim/jewish couples.

All things change and evolve, including religion.

[eldargal]

http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/games/871121-norway-stores-pull-violent-video-games-including-call-of-duty-after-massacre

I understand the country is traumatised, but really? CoD I can see the logic with, it is a shooting simulation. I don't agree, but I see the logic. But World of Warcraft? The mmo equivalent of McDonalds and you stop selling it because one of its, what, ten million players was an evil piece of excrement? Were people protesting outside the store because they sold games a nutjob happened to enjoy?

How is this respectful to the (familes of the) victims, who were mostly teenagers and some probably played these games themselves?

[Morgan Darkstar]

http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/games/871121-norway-stores-pull-violent-video-games-including-call-of-duty-after-massacre

I understand the country is traumatised, but really? CoD I can see the logic with, it is a shooting simulation. I don't agree, but I see the logic. But World of Warcraft? The mmo equivalent of McDonalds and you stop selling it because one of its, what, ten million players was an evil piece of excrement? Were people protesting outside the store because they sold games a nutjob happened to enjoy?

How is this respectful to the (familes of the) victims, who were mostly teenagers and some probably played these games themselves?

I may be way off the mark, but i think it is a blatantly sickening attempt at free publicity from the stores concerned.

Leaves a bad taste in my mouth :mad:

[eldargal]

That is exactly what I thought. In fact I thought I said as much, must have deleted the sentence by mistake.