Venomthrope Spore Cloud Question

[Necron_Lord]

Greetings all,

I got in a game this last weekend and a complex assault situation occurred, and I just want to make sure that I got it right.

The situation was I had a squad of wyches with a haemonculus attached to them multi-assault a unit of termagants and the swarmlord with a tyrant guard attached. I also had my archon and incubi assault the swarmlord and tyrant guard as well. The termagants and swarmlord and tyrant guard were within 6" of a unit of venomthropes, so they all had to take dangerous terrain tests during the assault. My haemonculus took a wound and five out of seven of my incubi took wounds (ouch!!).

The BRB says that the 25% casualty rule is waived when the unit is locked in CC. The spore cloud rule only comes into play if the unit is assaulted (which they were). Reading the dangerous terrain test section in the BRB, it sounds like the test is taken after moving, so the models would have been locked at that point.

This is what I did. I did NOT take a 25% casualties morale check for my incubi, as they were locked in CC, and did not count the failed dangerous terrain tests for combat results as they were not caused by fighting. I know that Cleansing Flame for Purifiers does contribute to CC results, but that is stated in the codex which is an exception (or is it?) to the normal rules.

Was this correct?

For those who are curious, my Archon struck at I 1 because of the Lash Whip, but was not in B2B with the Swarmlord. At I 6, all of my wyches except for the Yraqna in B2B with the Tyrant Guard with the lash whip could attack, as well as the Swarmlord. The Swarmlord killed my haemonculus (big surprise), but my hekatrix attacked the swarmlord and the tyrant guard with her agoniser, inflicting two wounds. Both models only had one wound left (that's why I charged them) and the Swarmlord failed his blade parry and both of them died. The normal wyches inflicted enough damage on the termagants that they won the assault. The termagants were in synapse range and failed enough of the no retreat wounds to be wiped out.

This also brought up a pain token question. Since the wyches were the only unit attacking the termagants, they got the pain token for killing them. However, since both the incubi unit and the wych unit were attacking the Tyrant Guard with the Swarmlord, I randomly assigned the pain tokens between these two units, even though the incubi unit never got a chance to attack because the Tyrand Guard and Swarmlord were killed in CC at a higher initiative. Was it correct assigning the pain tokens for killing them randomly?

Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[Tynskel]

morale checks are taken at the end of the phase. Since your ladies, boys? (I am not sure what the hemonculus is...) are locked in combat, you are bound by the morale rules set by units in assault.

If your unit did not get to charge (ie no one was in range because of the models that died), then you would be bound by normal morale rules.

[AbusePuppy]

You are correct- morale tests are not taken due to normal casualties in the Assault Phase, so even though you lost enough models, you need not roll.

[Necron_Lord]

morale checks are taken at the end of the phase. Since your ladies, boys? (I am not sure what the hemonculus is...) are locked in combat, you are bound by the morale rules set by units in assault.

If your unit did not get to charge (ie no one was in range because of the models that died), then you would be bound by normal morale rules.

Yes, both units were locked after assault moves and dangerous terrain tests.

[mathhammer]

okay this is a little long bug the rules flow as follows:

The assault phase is broke into 3 sections for each combined combat. A combined combat may included one or moe units.

Stage 1: Before the initiative is started
Stage 2: Combat (initiative steps)
Stage 3: After the Combat.

A combined combat can have wounds inflicted in any of the 3 stages. I will list some examples:
Stage 1: Dangerous Terrain, Exploding Vehicles, Templates
Stage 2: Close Combat, Purifying Flame, Exploding Vehicles
Stage 3: Exploding Vehicles, Templates

For combat results the only wounds that matter are those that occur in stage 2.
If your unit is nit engaged in close combat at the end of the phase then add the total of the wounds from stage 1 and stage 3. If this represents a 25% loss fromt the start of the phase then you are required to take a morale check.

-) Stage 2 wounds only apply to the close combat resilts.
-) Stage 1 and 3 wounds cannot apply to the close combat results.
-) By rule if your locked in close combat at the end of the phase you ignore the morale check.

[Nabterayl]

okay this is a little long bug the rules flow as follows:

The assault phase is broke into 3 sections for each combined combat. A combined combat may included one or moe units.

Stage 1: Before the initiative is started
Stage 2: Combat (initiative steps)
Stage 3: After the Combat.

A combined combat can have wounds inflicted in any of the 3 stages. I will list some examples:
Stage 1: Dangerous Terrain, Exploding Vehicles, Templates
Stage 2: Close Combat, Purifying Flame, Exploding Vehicles
Stage 3: Exploding Vehicles, Templates

For combat results the only wounds that matter are those that occur in stage 2.
If your unit is nit engaged in close combat at the end of the phase then add the total of the wounds from stage 1 and stage 3. If this represents a 25% loss fromt the start of the phase then you are required to take a morale check.

-) Stage 2 wounds only apply to the close combat resilts.
-) Stage 1 and 3 wounds cannot apply to the close combat results.
-) By rule if your locked in close combat at the end of the phase you ignore the morale check.
Quoted for accuracy.

[Necron_Lord]

okay this is a little long bug the rules flow as follows:

The assault phase is broke into 3 sections for each combined combat. A combined combat may included one or moe units.

Stage 1: Before the initiative is started
Stage 2: Combat (initiative steps)
Stage 3: After the Combat.

A combined combat can have wounds inflicted in any of the 3 stages. I will list some examples:
Stage 1: Dangerous Terrain, Exploding Vehicles, Templates
Stage 2: Close Combat, Purifying Flame, Exploding Vehicles
Stage 3: Exploding Vehicles, Templates

For combat results the only wounds that matter are those that occur in stage 2.
If your unit is nit engaged in close combat at the end of the phase then add the total of the wounds from stage 1 and stage 3. If this represents a 25% loss fromt the start of the phase then you are required to take a morale check.

-) Stage 2 wounds only apply to the close combat resilts.
-) Stage 1 and 3 wounds cannot apply to the close combat results.
-) By rule if your locked in close combat at the end of the phase you ignore the morale check.

So I guess I should have taken a morale test as the unit with which they were locked in CC was destroyed by the wyches. I would have tested with the Archon's Ld and there was a Raider within 6" with Grisly Trophies, so I probably would have made it. Your explanation makes sense.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

[chicop76]

The losses to your eldar via dangerous terrain might count towards resolution. I know it's covered in the 40k faq and I will look it up and respond back if someone don't beat me to it.

[thecactusman17]

Completely ignore what was here a moment ago, the wording is actually quite elegant but fairly explicit. If a unit with PFP destroys another unit, it gets the pain token itself. If the results after combat result in destroyed enemy units (such as running them down or No Retreat wounds) but there are multiple units who could claim the token, then the pain token is distributed randomly.

[Necron_Lord]

Completely ignore what was here a moment ago, the wording is actually quite elegant but fairly explicit. If a unit with PFP destroys another unit, it gets the pain token itself. If the results after combat result in destroyed enemy units (such as running them down or No Retreat wounds) but there are multiple units who could claim the token, then the pain token is distributed randomly.

Right. Since the wyches were the only unit to inflict wounds, they would be the only unit to get the pain tokens then. However, if the incubi unit had a chance to inflict the last wound, and the wyches had inflicted one previously, then the pain tokens would be randomized. Or if they both inflicted wounds, and the no retreat wounds inflicted by both units finished off a unit, then the pain token for the unit dying that way would be randomized. Methinks I've got it now.

Thanks again everyone!

[s_harrington]

Similar question in this theme:

If a unit that is not currently in dangerous terrain launches an assault that would take them through difficult/dangerous terrain fails the difficult terrain roll, do they have to take dangerous terrain tests?

There's a wierd example in the rulebook that boggles the mind. Something about moving the first model, and if he dies, check to see if the assault fails due to movement.

Not real helpful.

[Nabterayl]

If you don't pass your Difficult Terrain test, you don't move at all, so you wouldn't take the Dangerous Terrain tests. The example in the rulebook would be applicable if at least one model does have the movement distance to reach the assault target, but dies en route due to Dangerous Terrain. In that case you have to see if anybody else has the movement distance to make it, and if the answer is no, the unit stops moving.

[Tynskel]

However, this would not prevent the squad from taking the dangerous terrain checks because of the spore cloud. The entire unit is effected by the spore cloud, as opposed to the model by model basis that normal movement would incur.

[Nabterayl]

Mad Dog Johnson charges ahead of the squad and inhales a spore.

"Johnson! No! Don't turn around and -"

<cough cough>

"Dammit, Johnson! Cough the other way!"

[s_harrington]

I asked the question because of a moment that occured at a tournament 2 weeks ago.

Black Templar Deathstar assaults Grey Knight Librarian.
Sanctuary successfully cast.

Black Templar unit fails to reach librarian due to failed difficult terrain roll.

At this point the game ground to a halt.

After about 10 minutes, the judges sided with the Grey Knight player that the Templars still had to take the Dangerous Terrain rolls.


As the Grey Knight player, I'm still not convinced it played out rightly, even if it was in my favor. Under the difficult terrain section on page 14, models that make a difficult terrain dice roll but don't actually move only count as having moved for the purposes of firing.

Under the dangerous terrain section (14), it says a model must have entered, left, or moved in dangerous terrain to trigger the check.

Is there anywhere that states a difficult terrain roll that ends up with the unit not moving counts as having moved for any purposes besides shooting?

[Nabterayl]

Not that I'm aware of. I believe that ruling was in error.

[Tynskel]

Again, the entire unit is effected by the power, ie everyone must make the roll. The move takes every model through dangerous terrain.

[s_harrington]

I think I may have miscommunicated to you, Tynskel.

I agree that every model makes the roll.

The question is, "What if the model doesn't end up moving?"

The rulebook (34) is clear that if the closest model is found to be out of range, the assault doesn't happen. The Spore Cloud and Sanctuary both say the assaulting models take the tests. How can they be both assaulting and "assault does not happen" at the same time?