CSM (daemon princes) against GK..

[PedroKantor]

Hey all,
going to a 1500pt tournament this weekend and am expecting at least 1 GK opponent. I have not played against them yet and i am running two tzeentch daemon princes with wings, bolt of change, and warp time in my list...
was wondering if there were any GK units that I definitely should not bring my princes into assault with? Don't have the GK codex, so no idea.
Thanks ahead of time!!!

[Luke Licens]

Honestly, any of them. Those Nemesis Weapons will splat you hardcore, as they bypass Eternal Warrior when fighting Daemons. Play the old shoot & scoot, or crush them with overwhelming force before they can strike back. Halberds eat you alive at I6.

[PedroKantor]

Thanks.. thats pretty much what i was assuming :( but wasn't sure if some were worse than others..
i am running 2 full nurgle tactical marines and a bunch of terminators too, so hopefully those will help!

[fuzzbuket]

what is the T of princes?

even though they ignore EW they are only S4 and medicore at assault, with swords doing not much, halbards making them faster marines and falchions giving extra attacks. hammers only will ID heralds and S4 beasties.
dont assault tarpit 10 man termies, paladins or dragio. purifiers are best shot ot swamped.
GK arent so good at assalut anymore ( they are a 24' firefights army) so just corner them and eat them up. not much can best 2 princes in CC unless its a big squad



-fuzz

just dont assault dreadknights with hammers/swords.

[PedroKantor]

Mark of Tzeentch, so only T5.
Thanks again for the advice!!!!

[Nabterayl]

Just to clarify, Nemesis weapons don't ignore Eternal Warrior. They have a totally separate rule called Daemonbane that will force your daemon princes to take a Leadership test if they have been wounded by any Nemesis weapons that assault phase. If they pass the test, nothing happens; if they fail, they are removed as a casualty even though they have Eternal Warrior. The critical difference between this and ignoring Eternal Warrior is that you have to fail your Leadership test, rather than them having to pass a Leadership test, so this is much more favorable to you than bypassing Eternal Warrior would be. You only ever have to take one Daemonbane test per model per assault phase, no matter how many Nemesis weapons have wounded you.

That said, all GKs are armed with Nemesis weapons, and all GKs have a psychic power that gives them +1S. So you can expect them to be S5 most of the time. If you're going to assault them, make sure it won't take you very long to kill them or they'll wear you down with S5 attacks, Mark of Tzeentch or no.

I wouldn't personally worry about halberds too much. Ten halberd attacks on a Tzeentch daemon prince will only lay 1.25 wounds on you, and you don't have to test for Daemonbane until the end of the assault phase (plus, at Ld10, it's unlikely you'll fail your test anyway). What I would avoid are units with invulnerable saves - that is, things in terminator armor and dreadknights, since none of the power-armored Grey Knights have invulnerables - as those will slow down your killing spree.

Also be very wary of assaulting any unit with an attached independent character, as both the unit and the IC can cast the +1S psychic power, boosting the unit to I6 (or higher, if there are multiple ICs attached). Nemesis daemon hammers are power fist force weapons, so those can also obviously threaten a daemon prince, just like a hidden power fist can.

Terminators of all kinds and purifiers (elite power-armored GKs) have A2 base, so be wary of that. Paladins (elite terminators) also have W2 base, so they'll take longer for your daemon princes to carve through than you think.

Hope that's helpful. Good luck!

EDIT:
I know you only asked about assault with your princes, but in case you haven't already heard, let me amplify a bit on the whole shooting vs. assault thing. Power-armored GKs (except for the aforementioned purifiers) are only A1 base, so they aren't especially good at close combat. Every man has a force weapon, which can be bad, but at the end of the day, ten PAGKs will only put out 10 S5 power weapon attacks at worst if you get the charge on them. Terminators are A2 base and get some free CC upgrades, but five terminators is still only 10 S5 power weapon attacks (albeit probably at I6, since they can buy the +2I force halberds for free). Hurty, yes, but there are much scarier things in assault - particularly since PAGKs have no invulnerable saves at all, and terminators only have a 5++ (upgradeable to 4++ in assault only if they forego the +2I force halberds and take force swords instead).

In shooting, it's another story. All GKs have a storm bolter, and all storm bolter-equipped units can buy psybolt ammo to give their guns +1S. The primary squad heavy weapon is the psycannon, which is 24" S7 AP4 assault 4 rending, and all squads can buy one of those for every five men. So consider ten GKs in power armor with the standard two psycannons and psybolts. If you charge them, that's 10 WS4 S5 power attacks at worst. But if you engage in a shooting duel, you're eating 16 BS4 S5 shots and 8 BS4 S7 rending shots. Yeah, you get your armor save against the shooting, but you're taking a lot more hits (3.3 wounds in assault, average of 11.6 wounds in shooting, even with your power armor). For this reason, most players consider GKs much more of a shooting army than an assault army.

[PedroKantor]

Thanks for the details Nabterayl, really appreciate it. Been a while since i've played my CSM and the only reason Im playing them this weekind is because of a recent Daemon Prince conversion I did
http://2ndcitywarzone.blogspot.com/2011/07/hellpit-abomination-to-daemon-prince.html
, sorry for the blog plug! But, Im excited so we shall see!

[Wildcard]

Just to clarify, Nemesis weapons don't ignore Eternal Warrior. They have a totally separate rule called Daemonbane that will force your daemon princes to take a Leadership test if they have been wounded by any Nemesis weapons that assault phase. If they pass the test, nothing happens; if they fail, they are removed as a casualty even though they have Eternal Warrior.

Where is it stated that wording 'removed as a casualty' ignores Eternal Warrior?

And is it general take on this matter, ie, applies to every army, and every rule that 'removes as a casualty', or just for grey knights vs daemons (and psykers i take)?

[Tynskel]

removed as a casualty does not cause instant death. Eternal Warrior specifically ignores instant death.

[Nabterayl]

Where is it stated that wording 'removed as a casualty' ignores Eternal Warrior?

And is it general take on this matter, ie, applies to every army, and every rule that 'removes as a casualty', or just for grey knights vs daemons (and psykers i take)?
Eternal Warrior simply says that it ignores Instant Death. As Daemonbane does not inflict Instant Death, Eternal Warrior is not ignored so much as sidestepped. And yes, Daemonbane specifies that it applies to "daemons" (for the definition of which see the GK FAQ) and psykers (for the definition of which infer from the GK FAQ).

[chicop76]

Eternal Warrior simply says that it ignores Instant Death. As Daemonbane does not inflict Instant Death, Eternal Warrior is not ignored so much as sidestepped. And yes, Daemonbane specifies that it applies to "daemons" (for the definition of which see the GK FAQ) and psykers (for the definition of which infer from the GK FAQ).

1. The only model that has Daemonbane is Draigo. So unless you're getting hit by Draigo it's not even an issue.

2. Unless you're up against Draigo or a Dreadknight your prince should do well. I wouldn't be scared of fighting regular knights in hand to hand with models like khorne beserkers or thousand sons, in fact thousand sons would be ideal against the knights.

3. I would worry about the Vindicare which can kill your Icon bearers and can pop a raider. Also purifiers is something to watch out for with 2 attacks a piece with 4 special weapons or int 6 options. Another threat is the Assassain/ Crusader combo with a tech marine or inquisitor with rad and or psychotroke grenades, the tech marine can have a +2 invul save in combat.

4. For chaos I would suggest khorne and or tzeentch instead of plague marines and noise marines. Also if a model with aegis is with 12" of a dreadnought y get a -4 modifer aganist your psykers targeting a model with aegis which is usually -1 towards leadership.

5. The army is a mid range heavy army, so you can take advatage of that and try to beat them at range since the only weapon that goes over 24" is on the vindicare with 36" range, razorbacks, landraider, and stormraven.

[Wildcard]

The only model that has Daemonbane is Draigo.

This is wrong: Daemonbane comes with the nemesis-weapons (p. 54 nemesis f-weapons rules)
The reason why Draigo has it mentioned, is that hes sword isn't a nemesis forceweapon.


Unless you're up against Draigo or a Dreadknight your prince should do well.

Well, i would be a bit worried against a 10man squad of purifiers with 5x halberds and 4x psycannons (+1 extra wound guy for the psycannon dudes) and if you add a IC that has rad grenades and / or hammerhand, suddenly your prince comes close to a grinded meat: 10-15 I6 powerweapons that hit on a 4+, wounding on a 5+ on base situation (yet, add 2x hammerhand + rad 'nades its 2+ wounding, with only 5++ save allowed.) then you add in all the IC attacks + the psycannon attacks that -if you played wisely - got to shoot the daemon prince before melee). Daemon prince having only 4 wounds its gonna be a hard time for him.
PS. And don't forget that grey knights re-roll hits against daemons (prefered enemy special rule)
PPS. And add psychostroke grenades to the IC, and you have a possibility to force daemon prince take the daemonbane test on a ld2 iirc :)


Eternal Warrior simply says that it ignores Instant Death. As Daemonbane does not inflict Instant Death, Eternal Warrior is not ignored so much as sidestepped.

Do you have faq/errata/something even bit official to back this claim? I mean, my gaming group wont buy it just by that wording i am afraid.. (yet i know its not your problem :) )

[chicop76]

This is wrong: Daemonbane comes with the nemesis-weapons (p. 54 nemesis f-weapons rules)
The reason why Draigo has it mentioned, is that hes sword isn't a nemesis forceweapon.



Well, i would be a bit worried against a 10man squad of purifiers with 5x halberds and 4x psycannons (+1 extra wound guy for the psycannon dudes) and if you add a IC that has rad grenades and / or hammerhand, suddenly your prince comes close to a grinded meat: 10-15 I6 powerweapons that hit on a 4+, wounding on a 5+ on base situation (yet, add 2x hammerhand + rad 'nades its 2+ wounding, with only 5++ save allowed.) then you add in all the IC attacks + the psycannon attacks that -if you played wisely - got to shoot the daemon prince before melee). Daemon prince having only 4 wounds its gonna be a hard time for him.
PS. And don't forget that grey knights re-roll hits against daemons (prefered enemy special rule)
PPS. And add psychostroke grenades to the IC, and you have a possibility to force daemon prince take the daemonbane test on a ld2 iirc :)



Do you have faq/errata/something even bit official to back this claim? I mean, my gaming group wont buy it just by that wording i am afraid.. (yet i know its not your problem :) )

Never noticed that about Daemonbane, although he would need a roll of 11-12 for the effect to kill the Tzeentch prince anyway.

I thought I mentioned Purifiers, anyway people have discoved Purifiers can take 4 special weapons and statring to run them as combat squads, 1 with 4 psycannons and 1 with 5 Halbreds. Anyway most run awinged Tzeentch Prince so I doubt they would get the drop on him and it probably be the othere way around. The prince with it's flame attack can kill 4-5 purifiers, before they do anything unless you roll 10 or higher or if a Dreadnought is nearby then you need 6 or lower. Anyway with rad and hamerhand the model would be wounded on 3s and the purifiers basically hit on 3s causing 4-5 wounds not Including the Tech Marine or Inquisitor, with a 4+ invulnerable save the model should still be alive and kill about 4-5 knights thanks to warptime.

If nothing shoots at the purifiers plus independant character and if they assault first, more then likely via storm raven, then I can see your point, but purifiers rarely make it anywhere now, since most people blow them away, unless they're in a landraider, puting more then a quarter of your army in one spot.

So watch out fcor a full squad of purifiers with an Independant Chracter attached, watch out for a brotherhood champ, due to if you kill him and he hits you back you're dead too.

[Denied]

The primary squad heavy weapon is the psycannon, which is 24" S7 AP4 assault 4 rending


Small note it is: 24" S7 AP4 assault2 or Heavy 4, rending


The only models that always shoots it as assault though are in terminator armor.


Also most Grey Knight armies are going to be fielding a bare minimum of 2-3 Dreadnoughts with 2x TL autocannon and psybolt ammo, Str8 48" shots are going to hurt a LOT of things. These also tend to be the primary source of anti-armor vehicles, They are great for popping anything that is not AV14. As for AV14 most GK players rely on their Psycannons to pop them instead of fielding Assassins of any kind. Assassins are very expensive and easily focused by enemy forces and dealt with.

psycannons can be devastating to vehicles they are rending and they WILL pop AV14 I have blown up numerous Landraiders and Lemun Russes with psycannons.

Also if your opponent has discovered the glory that is the purgation squad you are going to want to focus them and remove them from play fast. They are a standard GK profile, but they have this ability called Astral Aim that allows them to hunker down in full cover and blast at enemy. Usually they are only a squad of 5 guys (4x psycannons though) and they tend to deploy near to a good piece of full cover in the middle of the board. Then they sit there never moving and blasting enemy units with 16x psycannons shots a turn (this is how I tend to take out AV14 :-P ) They are very weak in CC though and an easy kill point to snag. If you focus them early and remove them from game play your are going to be golden.

[chicop76]

Sorry? A Vindicare Assassin especially if you're using a Tech Marine usally will have a +2 cover save which is very hard to kill and a weapon that does 4d6+3 is well worth the points if on average the model can hit wit strength 17 shoots. You have to mess up on a 2+/4+ to hit and roll a 10 on 4 dice not to hurt a landraider and you want to rely on a 24" weapon that need a 6 to pen a landraider is silly.

The 4 shot auto cannon dread is not bad, but the auto cannon, assaul dread is much better and versitle dishing out 6 shots and the possibility to pen a raider.

Purigation is fragile and takes up a heavy slot, while you can take a 10 man Purifier squad and split them into combat teams and still have 4 psycannons at cheaper cost and a good 5 man assault squad.

Again Thousand Sons as troops will eat the grey knights in shooting and a Tzeentch HQ or Khorne whould be a good choice. Oblits, lascanons, and meltas will win you the day against grey knights.

[Nabterayl]

Do you have faq/errata/something even bit official to back this claim? I mean, my gaming group wont buy it just by that wording i am afraid.. (yet i know its not your problem :) )
Well ... not precisely, no. But I have two lines of argument I would present to them.

First and most importantly, let's consider the actual rules for a moment:

Eternal Warrior says, "The model is immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule."

Daemonbane says, "If the test is failed, the model is removed as a casualty."
I don't see how you go from "immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule" to "is immune to being removed as a casualty." But perhaps the Instant Death rule itself will shed light on the matter:

Instant Death says "If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty." However, the force weapon rules say "If the [Psychic] test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value." We are all familiar with other instances of rules that inflict Instant Death without meeting the double-Toughness criterion.
In order to argue that "is immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule" equals "is immune to being removed as a casualty," we have to establish that being removed as a casualty is the same thing as Instant Death. But if that were so, why would various rules (such as the force weapon rule) specify that they inflict Instant Death? Why not simply say "is removed as a casualty?" In fact, that is essentially what they used to say (c.f. the 3rd edition DH and WH codices), and GW has stopped doing that across multiple codices and the rulebook itself. In that context, why, when we see the Daemonbane rule, would we say, "Oh, well, when they said 'is removed as a casualty,' clearly they meant to say, 'suffers Instant Death, regardless of its Toughness value'?"

Second, let's consider the historical context of the rule. Clearly Daemonbane is intended to be used against daemons, for it applies to "any Daemon or psyker." The Grey Knights FAQ clarifies what is meant by the term "Daemon." The only Daemons on that list that are not immune to Instant Death are obliterators and Kheradruakh the Decapitator (several other Daemons being one-wound models who will never take a Daemonbane test, because if they've been wounded by a Daemonbane weapon, they're already dead).

So when we ask ourselves how likely it is that "is removed as a casualty" actually means "suffers Instant Death, regardless of its Toughness value," do we seriously mean to tell ourselves that at the time of writing the only Daemon models Daemonbane worked on were obliterators and a dark eldar special character? If this result were due to an edition change I could buy it, but that's not the case.

[chicop76]

Well ... not precisely, no. But I have two lines of argument I would present to them.

First and most importantly, let's consider the actual rules for a moment:

Eternal Warrior says, "The model is immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule."

Daemonbane says, "If the test is failed, the model is removed as a casualty."
I don't see how you go from "immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule" to "is immune to being removed as a casualty." But perhaps the Instant Death rule itself will shed light on the matter:

Instant Death says "If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty." However, the force weapon rules say "If the [Psychic] test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value." We are all familiar with other instances of rules that inflict Instant Death without meeting the double-Toughness criterion.
In order to argue that "is immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule" equals "is immune to being removed as a casualty," we have to establish that being removed as a casualty is the same thing as Instant Death. But if that were so, why would various rules (such as the force weapon rule) specify that they inflict Instant Death? Why not simply say "is removed as a casualty?" In fact, that is essentially what they used to say (c.f. the 3rd edition DH and WH codices), and GW has stopped doing that across multiple codices and the rulebook itself. In that context, why, when we see the Daemonbane rule, would we say, "Oh, well, when they said 'is removed as a casualty,' clearly they meant to say, 'suffers Instant Death, regardless of its Toughness value'?"

Second, let's consider the historical context of the rule. Clearly Daemonbane is intended to be used against daemons, for it applies to "any Daemon or psyker." The Grey Knights FAQ clarifies what is meant by the term "Daemon." The only Daemons on that list that are not immune to Instant Death are obliterators and Kheradruakh the Decapitator (several other Daemons being one-wound models who will never take a Daemonbane test, because if they've been wounded by a Daemonbane weapon, they're already dead).

So when we ask ourselves how likely it is that "is removed as a casualty" actually means "suffers Instant Death, regardless of its Toughness value," do we seriously mean to tell ourselves that at the time of writing the only Daemon models Daemonbane worked on were obliterators and a dark eldar special character? If this result were due to an edition change I could buy it, but that's not the case.

I don't see the confusion. Remove as a casuality is nothing new.
1. Chaos Marines Spawn turning power
2. Daemons Spawn turning power
3. Orcs squig turning power
4. Jaws of the Warp wolf for Space Wolves
5. Some Dark Eldar abilities

Not to mention the flame template for the Grey Knight Libby. Also you can look at Eldar wraithguard using the wording instant death instead of being removed as a casuality.

You can have Eternal Warrior with 1000 wounds and die with one hit thanks to deamonbane. Seeing before they added new daemons with the faq only the Avatar is a daemon without eternal warrior. I doubt the rule was written in so it can only kill the Eldar Avatar wth one hit.

[Wildcard]

@Nabterayl: Thanks! That post was clarifying (atleast I see the difference now) :)

So, by that wordings, we can assume, that every skill/ability/spell/hit from a 'special' weapon (not meaning melta / plasma, but unique swords etc..) that has a special rule 'is removed as casualty' rather than 'inflicts instant death' ignores Eternal Warrior special rule?

For excample:

Chaos Space Marine codex: wind of chaos (or some similarly named) that causes unit to be removed from the table, and chaos spawn placed instead of it. (can't remember the exact wording though)

Grey Knights: Daemon Bane

Imperial Guard: Summary Execution rule for executing own model to be able to re-roll morale check (ethe executed model is immediately removed as a casualty, regardless of number of wounds remaining)

EDIT: chicop76 seemed to beat me with a few excamples. Thanks for them aswell though!

[DarkLink]

Wildcard, you're trying to make this way more complicated than it is.

Weapons such as, say, a plasma gun, cause a wound if you fail a save. No "removed from play" or "instant death" involved. You lose a wound, and if you have no wounds left you die.

Now, a meltagun does cause instant death on T4 or less, as per the instant death rules. Eternal warrior ignores instant death, therefore a T4 model with multiple wounds that takes a meltagun hit would take a single wound. If it lacked the eternal warrior rule, it would lose all its wounds and die.

'Removed from play' is a separate mechanic from instant death, that has a similar but notably different effect. A model that is 'removed from play' for whatever reason is removed as a casualty. Eternal warrior has absolutely nothing to do with 'removed from play' whatsoever.

In fact, 'removed from play' often has nothing to do with wounds. It doesn't matter whether or not you lose all your wounds if you fail the initiative test for jaws of the world wolf, you are 'removed from play', eternal warrior or not.

Long story short, instant death and 'removed from play' have nothing to do with each other. The only possible way to claim that eternal warrior protects against 'removed from play' is to claim that 'removed from play' is the exact same thing as instant death, which it blatantly isn't. 'Removed from play' kills models with eternal warrior.



Sorry? A Vindicare Assassin especially if you're using a Tech Marine usally will have a +2 cover save which is very hard to kill and a weapon that does 4d6+3 is well worth the points if on average the model can hit wit strength 17 shoots.

Well, techmarines aren't that great and aren't that common (the only reason to take one is if you don't have a Grand Master or Inquisitor to carry your grenades for you), making it a 3+ save. And at T4 with a 3+ save and two wounds, guess how long the vindicare will live? That's a rhetorical question, btw. Even a 2+ save isn't much better.



You have to mess up on a 2+/4+ to hit and roll a 10 on 4 dice not to hurt a landraider and you want to rely on a 24" weapon that need a 6 to pen a landraider is silly.

No, you don't rely on a single 24" shot that needs a 6 to do damage. You rely on the tons of 24" shots where you're bound to roll a 6 eventually to do damage. But, yes, a good list should have either meltaguns or a vindicare, and since I'm not that impressed with the vindicare I would go with coteaz and a couple acolyte squads with melta.



The 4 shot auto cannon dread is not bad, but the auto cannon, assaul dread is much better and versitle dishing out 6 shots and the possibility to pen a raider.

Did you just say a psyrifle dread is "not bad"? "Not bad"? Seriously? Just "not bad"? Not "absolutely amazing", or "a ridiculously good deal" or "an auto-include in every GK list"?

You should have enough potential elsewhere to kill land raiders. They're not what you need lots of anti-tank for. You need guns to kill rhinos and chimeras, and psyrifle dreads do that far, far better than anything else in the GK codex, by a long shot. And no, even psycannons (or assault cannons) can't compare, as they only have a 24" range. Psyrifle dreads basically remove one enemy light vehicle per turn, plus you can ID T4 models such as 'nid warriors, and you can actually reach out and touch someone without having to footslog over into counter assault range.



Purigation is fragile and takes up a heavy slot, while you can take a 10 man Purifier squad and split them into combat teams and still have 4 psycannons at cheaper cost and a good 5 man assault squad.

Pretty much, yep. I've yet to find space for purgation squads in any of my lists.



Again Thousand Sons as troops will eat the grey knights in shooting and a Tzeentch HQ or Khorne whould be a good choice. Oblits, lascanons, and meltas will win you the day against grey knights.

Well, since oblits are the best heavy support choice in the CSM codex, then obviously go with those. But Thousand Sons cult troops suck. They're more elite yet less killy than Grey Knights, and they won't beat Grey Knights at their own game. Plus, taking any psyker against GKs is a very bad idea, unless you're taking it for the psychic hood or equivalent (in which case it's a must). Since Chaos doesn't have psychic hoods, all of the chaos psyker units get crossed off the list, excluding maybe a lash prince.

[chicop76]

Wildcard, you're trying to make this way more complicated than it is.

Weapons such as, say, a plasma gun, cause a wound if you fail a save. No "removed from play" or "instant death" involved. You lose a wound, and if you have no wounds left you die.

Now, a meltagun does cause instant death on T4 or less, as per the instant death rules. Eternal warrior ignores instant death, therefore a T4 model with multiple wounds that takes a meltagun hit would take a single wound. If it lacked the eternal warrior rule, it would lose all its wounds and die.

'Removed from play' is a separate mechanic from instant death, that has a similar but notably different effect. A model that is 'removed from play' for whatever reason is removed as a casualty. Eternal warrior has absolutely nothing to do with 'removed from play' whatsoever.

In fact, 'removed from play' often has nothing to do with wounds. It doesn't matter whether or not you lose all your wounds if you fail the initiative test for jaws of the world wolf, you are 'removed from play', eternal warrior or not.

Long story short, instant death and 'removed from play' have nothing to do with each other. The only possible way to claim that eternal warrior protects against 'removed from play' is to claim that 'removed from play' is the exact same thing as instant death, which it blatantly isn't. 'Removed from play' kills models with eternal warrior.




Well, techmarines aren't that great and aren't that common (the only reason to take one is if you don't have a Grand Master or Inquisitor to carry your grenades for you), making it a 3+ save. And at T4 with a 3+ save and two wounds, guess how long the vindicare will live? That's a rhetorical question, btw. Even a 2+ save isn't much better.



No, you don't rely on a single 24" shot that needs a 6 to do damage. You rely on the tons of 24" shots where you're bound to roll a 6 eventually to do damage. But, yes, a good list should have either meltaguns or a vindicare, and since I'm not that impressed with the vindicare I would go with coteaz and a couple acolyte squads with melta.



Did you just say a psyrifle dread is "not bad"? "Not bad"? Seriously? Just "not bad"? Not "absolutely amazing", or "a ridiculously good deal" or "an auto-include in every GK list"?

You should have enough potential elsewhere to kill land raiders. They're not what you need lots of anti-tank for. You need guns to kill rhinos and chimeras, and psyrifle dreads do that far, far better than anything else in the GK codex, by a long shot. And no, even psycannons (or assault cannons) can't compare, as they only have a 24" range. Psyrifle dreads basically remove one enemy light vehicle per turn, plus you can ID T4 models such as 'nid warriors, and you can actually reach out and touch someone without having to footslog over into counter assault range.



Pretty much, yep. I've yet to find space for purgation squads in any of my lists.



Well, since oblits are the best heavy support choice in the CSM codex, then obviously go with those. But Thousand Sons cult troops suck. They're more elite yet less killy than Grey Knights, and they won't beat Grey Knights at their own game. Plus, taking any psyker against GKs is a very bad idea, unless you're taking it for the psychic hood or equivalent (in which case it's a must). Since Chaos doesn't have psychic hoods, all of the chaos psyker units get crossed off the list, excluding maybe a lash prince.

1..I guess you never ran a tech marine with deathcult or purifiers. The TechMarine provide a plasma pistol, flamer, 2 str 8 weapons, and usally a +2 invulnerable. The Tech Marine is cheaper then your other grenade carriers and more durable in combat then an Inquisitor. Not saying cheaper then an Inquisitor mind you. The extra cover save is very helpful for other squads as well. I run a Tech Marine with Coteaz if the player decides to field all their units usally with 5 crusaders and 5 deathcult. With a +2 save I still have a whole army trying to kill my assassin, on average that's 9 marine str 8 or higher shots or 12 guard str 8 or higher shots to kill my assassin that is around the same cost as a rifle dreadnought and can live longer as well thanks to a +2 cover.

2. The Vindicare can easily one shot a landraider and take out models that have a +2/+3 invul save. I can see if the model cost a lot, but it really don't. It's pretty cheap and can easily earn back it's points with one shot. I know what a psycannon can do, but the limited range is very hurtful. If you don't run Dawn of War or Spearhead then I guess 24" should be good right. In 2/3 of your missions you can get picked off rather easily, unless you deep strike your cannons in.

3. The double auto cannon dread withb 4 sr 8 attacks is a bit over kill and 2 is really enough against most vehicles. The psycannon add on helps. I tried both ways and found shooting 6 times is better then 4 times and the extra rending can come in handy.

That being said you're either running a 200 pt dread or one that cost the same as a Dreadknight. Also they both can take up other slots you can use like purigation, dreadknight, purifiers, tech marine, vindicare, etc. Also. Oth dreads have 12 armour which isn't that hard to pop. To use them the way you saying you have to take like 4-6 for 600-1000 points not leaving much room for anything else. The problem with the models is they paint a big target on them saying," Hey we're they only real range this army has, so please take us out."

4. Purigation would be hard to field with dreadnoughts and raiders taking up slots

5. Thousand Sons cost as much as a knight and can easily kill them in mid range shooting. Unless the Grey Knights fielding a Libby, if I pop your dreadnoughts then you don't have much for psyker protection. Another reason why Grey Knight dreadnoughts don't last long. Also with a +4 save the thousand sons can do well against a normal grey knight squad in combat, although rapid fireing out a rhino would pick up the knights with a little flamer action for good luck. I wouldn't normaly sugguest Thousand Sons, but a few units would do well against the grey knights.

[Denied]

Purigation is fragile and takes up a heavy slot, while you can take a 10 man Purifier squad and split them into combat teams and still have 4 psycannons at cheaper cost and a good 5 man assault squad.

Pretty much, yep. I've yet to find space for purgation squads in any of my lists.



They are fragile I wont deny, but the thing is if played right they are never in the enemy sights. The only army types that they tend to be a wash against are hordes (IG/ Ork/ Nids). Usually your opponent is too busy taking care of shooting and or assaulting the other units in your army and doesn't have the time to slog over to a unit completely hiding in cover and deal with it. Lets also not forget they are respectively cheap for the number of psycannons you get only 180 points compared to having an entire squad of purifiers combat squad (that now has to stand in line of sight in order to shot the enemy meaning it becomes a target for return firer)

[chicop76]

Wildcard, you're trying to make this way more complicated than it is.

Weapons such as, say, a plasma gun, cause a wound if you fail a save. No "removed from play" or "instant death" involved. You lose a wound, and if you have no wounds left you die.

Now, a meltagun does cause instant death on T4 or less, as per the instant death rules. Eternal warrior ignores instant death, therefore a T4 model with multiple wounds that takes a meltagun hit would take a single wound. If it lacked the eternal warrior rule, it would lose all its wounds and die.

'Removed from play' is a separate mechanic from instant death, that has a similar but notably different effect. A model that is 'removed from play' for whatever reason is removed as a casualty. Eternal warrior has absolutely nothing to do with 'removed from play' whatsoever.

In fact, 'removed from play' often has nothing to do with wounds. It doesn't matter whether or not you lose all your wounds if you fail the initiative test for jaws of the world wolf, you are 'removed from play', eternal warrior or not.

Long story short, instant death and 'removed from play' have nothing to do with each other. The only possible way to claim that eternal warrior protects against 'removed from play' is to claim that 'removed from play' is the exact same thing as instant death, which it blatantly isn't. 'Removed from play' kills models with eternal warrior.




Well, techmarines aren't that great and aren't that common (the only reason to take one is if you don't have a Grand Master or Inquisitor to carry your grenades for you), making it a 3+ save. And at T4 with a 3+ save and two wounds, guess how long the vindicare will live? That's a rhetorical question, btw. Even a 2+ save isn't much better.



No, you don't rely on a single 24" shot that needs a 6 to do damage. You rely on the tons of 24" shots where you're bound to roll a 6 eventually to do damage. But, yes, a good list should have either meltaguns or a vindicare, and since I'm not that impressed with the vindicare I would go with coteaz and a couple acolyte squads with melta.



Did you just say a psyrifle dread is "not bad"? "Not bad"? Seriously? Just "not bad"? Not "absolutely amazing", or "a ridiculously good deal" or "an auto-include in every GK list"?

You should have enough potential elsewhere to kill land raiders. They're not what you need lots of anti-tank for. You need guns to kill rhinos and chimeras, and psyrifle dreads do that far, far better than anything else in the GK codex, by a long shot. And no, even psycannons (or assault cannons) can't compare, as they only have a 24" range. Psyrifle dreads basically remove one enemy light vehicle per turn, plus you can ID T4 models such as 'nid warriors, and you can actually reach out and touch someone without having to footslog over into counter assault range.



Pretty much, yep. I've yet to find space for purgation squads in any of my lists.



Well, since oblits are the best heavy support choice in the CSM codex, then obviously go with those. But Thousand Sons cult troops suck. They're more elite yet less killy than Grey Knights, and they won't beat Grey Knights at their own game. Plus, taking any psyker against GKs is a very bad idea, unless you're taking it for the psychic hood or equivalent (in which case it's a must). Since Chaos doesn't have psychic hoods, all of the chaos psyker units get crossed off the list, excluding maybe a lash prince.

1..I guess you never ran a tech marine with deathcult or purifiers. The TechMarine provide a plasma pistol, flamer, 2 str 8 weapons, and usally a +2 invulnerable. The Tech Marine is cheaper then your other grenade carriers and more durable in combat then an Inquisitor. Not saying cheaper then an Inquisitor mind you. The extra cover save is very helpful for other squads as well. I run a Tech Marine with Coteaz if the player decides to field all their units usally with 5 crusaders and 5 deathcult. With a +2 save I still have a whole army trying to kill my assassin, on average that's 9 marine str 8 or higher shots or 12 guard str 8 or higher shots to kill my assassin that is around the same cost as a rifle dreadnought and can live longer as well thanks to a +2 cover.

2. The Vindicare can easily one shot a landraider and take out models that have a +2/+3 invul save. I can see if the model cost a lot, but it really don't. It's pretty cheap and can easily earn back it's points with one shot. I know what a psycannon can do, but the limited range is very hurtful. If you don't run Dawn of War or Spearhead then I guess 24" should be good right. In 2/3 of your missions you can get picked off rather easily, unless you deep strike your cannons in.

3. The double auto cannon dread withb 4 sr 8 attacks is a bit over kill and 2 is really enough against most vehicles. The psycannon add on helps. I tried both ways and found shooting 6 times is better then 4 times and the extra rending can come in handy.

That being said you're either running a 200 pt dread or one that cost the same as a Dreadknight. Also they both can take up other slots you can use like purigation, dreadknight, purifiers, tech marine, vindicare, etc. Also. Oth dreads have 12 armour which isn't that hard to pop. To use them the way you saying you have to take like 4-6 for 600-1000 points not leaving much room for anything else. The problem with the models is they paint a big target on them saying," Hey we're they only real range this army has, so please take us out."

4. Purigation would be hard to field with dreadnoughts and raiders taking up slots

5. Thousand Sons cost as much as a knight and can easily kill them in mid range shooting. Unless the Grey Knights fielding a Libby, if I pop your dreadnoughts then you don't have much for psyker protection. Another reason why Grey Knight dreadnoughts don't last long. Also with a +4 save the thousand sons can do well against a normal grey knight squad in combat, although rapid fireing out a rhino would pick up the knights with a little flamer action for good luck. I wouldn't normaly sugguest Thousand Sons, but a few units would do well against the grey knights.

[Denied]

I have a hard time reading anything you type Chicop67, because everything I read is just bad advice. Honestly I don't think you play Grey Knights competitively, or else you must be playing against some very silly opponents. Psyfile Dreadnoughts are hands down one of the cheapest and best units in the GK codex for 135 points a piece you get a great unit that has such awesome abilities as fortitude. I field a minimum of 2 in every list I build and rarely do I even loose one. The amount of concentrated firer power that has to be directed at a Psyfile Dread to take it down is high (especially if you play it right and are behind cover). On average by turn 2 people get more concerned by my rhinos packed full of dudes blasting up their units then the Psyfile Dreads way out of the way and hard as hell to kill. The only time a dread even gets killed is when I am fighting a heavy assault army and they charge into my lines and CC the it down.

Vindicare on the other hand I have played with once and played against 3 times and every time I see it on the board it is removed by turn 2 at the latest. The thing is weak the only save it has is a cover save but its a 2 wound model which means one turn of concentrated firer and I no longer fear your armor penning machine. Also they cost 145 points which could instead be used for a Psyfile Dread which is FAR more durable because of fortitude

Techmarines are ... just terrible when considering the option for units. If you want an increased cover save grab a libby and get 4-5 amazing psy powers as well. You want a grenade machine that will boost your CC then grab a Grand Master and deck him out (still cheaper then Draigo), he will give you all the juicy grenades as well as Grand Strategy ( an ability that is almost essential in a good GK list). Lets also not forget he is a 3 wound model with a higher WS and BS plus he has an Iron Halo 4+ save which can be increased in CC to a 3+ if you grab a sword on him. The Techmarine is 1 wound, rolling around in artificer armor, with a 2+ armor save only. This is going to get killed, fast! at 90 points its a waste.

I know Chicop that these all sound good because they have cool powers, but you have to consider their survivability. Every thing you have suggested is easily dealt with by your opponent. I personally would love to see a player with the list you suggest across the table from me because I would be able to easily pick apart his special units and then mop up the rest of his army.

PS DreadKnights are also really bad.... just a warning.

[chicop76]

I have a hard time reading anything you type Chicop67, because everything I read is just bad advice. Honestly I don't think you play Grey Knights competitively, or else you must be playing against some very silly opponents. Psyfile Dreadnoughts are hands down one of the cheapest and best units in the GK codex for 135 points a piece you get a great unit that has such awesome abilities as fortitude. I field a minimum of 2 in every list I build and rarely do I even loose one. The amount of concentrated firer power that has to be directed at a Psyfile Dread to take it down is high (especially if you play it right and are behind cover). On average by turn 2 people get more concerned by my rhinos packed full of dudes blasting up their units then the Psyfile Dreads way out of the way and hard as hell to kill. The only time a dread even gets killed is when I am fighting a heavy assault army and they charge into my lines and CC the it down.

Vindicare on the other hand I have played with once and played against 3 times and every time I see it on the board it is removed by turn 2 at the latest. The thing is weak the only save it has is a cover save but its a 2 wound model which means one turn of concentrated firer and I no longer fear your armor penning machine. Also they cost 145 points which could instead be used for a Psyfile Dread which is FAR more durable because of fortitude

Techmarines are ... just terrible when considering the option for units. If you want an increased cover save grab a libby and get 4-5 amazing psy powers as well. You want a grenade machine that will boost your CC then grab a Grand Master and deck him out (still cheaper then Draigo), he will give you all the juicy grenades as well as Grand Strategy ( an ability that is almost essential in a good GK list). Lets also not forget he is a 3 wound model with a higher WS and BS plus he has an Iron Halo 4+ save which can be increased in CC to a 3+ if you grab a sword on him. The Techmarine is 1 wound, rolling around in artificer armor, with a 2+ armor save only. This is going to get killed, fast! at 90 points its a waste.

I know Chicop that these all sound good because they have cool powers, but you have to consider their survivability. Every thing you have suggested is easily dealt with by your opponent. I personally would love to see a player with the list you suggest across the table from me because I would be able to easily pick apart his special units and then mop up the rest of his army.

PS DreadKnights are also really bad.... just a warning.

Amazing. I was thinking the same thing for your advice, maybe this guy beats up on newb players or play against armies that lack ranged attacks.

1. Riflemen dreads, even with a 4+ save they're not hard to kill. Also I doubt you're getting a 4+ save against everything or half your shots either providing cover, or blocked by line on sight. The 50% rule makes it hard to fire both weapons and get a +4 cover. I put mine in cover as well, but unless I want to sacrifice some optimum shooting. I'm not getting cover from everything on the board the whole game, unless there is a terrain piece that just happens to be like a big tree blocking 50% to the model, but the arms extend out from the terrain not blocking sight on the weapons.

Also Riflemen dreads, the ones you run, without assault cannons, can fire at a land raider until they blue in the face and won't blow it up anytime soon. The best chance they have is to get a 6 and a 5 or 6 after that and glance the thing to death, so you will need to fire with marine bs 54 times at strength 8 to get on average 1 weapon destroyed, and 1 immobilized resault, depending on the raider it will still have 2-3 weapons left on it. With a Vindicare I have a really good chance of taking out a raider with a 2/4 to hit, a 10 on 4 dice, and with a roll of 4 or higher bye, bye landraider which cost 100 points more then the assassin.

Yes I admit the assassin with a +2 save usally dies in the 3rd turn instead of the 2nd turn, but the damage is done and he earned back his points. Rifflemen dreads will have problems with dealing with 13 or highr armour and need multiple shots to deal with higher armour. The 5-6s needed from the autocannons, you can switch out with the psycannon, which on 6s would pen both vehicles. The riflemen dreads are great for 12 armour and below.

Also saying a model sucks after playing it only one time. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk. I run models that I suck atleast 5 games against different types of armies before I say it sucks.

2. Not going to argue about a Libby, which can't take grenades, but can make you leadership 10, flame thrower that kills nurgle like no tommorrow, str 6 knights and dreadknight that is str 8 with 3d6 armour pen or str 6 marines with 2d6 armor pen, etc. I don't run one, because I'm anti expensive units, my rule of thumb is to say away from 1 man units and vehicles that hit around 200 points. Not to mention he can summon anything with the right upgrades near him.

I opt for Coteaz and a Xeno Inquisitor for HQ so I can put more points into troops. If I decide to run a grandmaster, I would run Mordack with Paladins and deep stike them turn 1 in my opponets face. I probably would run with a Libby attached to the squad to summon units as back up.

Mordrack is too good for me to pass up, due to being cheap compared to being a grandmaster and can spawn terminators that further lowers his cost. If you spawn 3 terminators you can look at Mordrack as an 80 point model.

The tech marine being an Elite choice I really don't see why you're compaing him to HQs. If you're using Coteaz you're limiting yourself to one grenade user. As an Elite choice you have more grenade oppurtunity and the model comes with 2 strength 8 attacks with a grenade discount. I haven't lost my Tech Marine yet thanks to the +2 invul in combat. I seen the tech marine used in many Grey Knight armies and used very well with Purifiers, Deathcult, Terminators, Paladins, etc. The model is half the cost of a Grandmaster and again not easy to kill.

3. Going back to one armour 12 is not that hard to defeat. Heck as a Daemon player I easily kill them by taking them out of cover and shooting a str 8 shot in it's rear. Although I respect warp rift and pray I go first. The problem with the riflemen is that they scream threat. As a guard player I would target the crap out of them, with bugs I'm already at a disadvatage, but would still see the wounding my big stuff on 2s as a threat, same goes to any army unless they landraider spam or you go against crons, rez orb troops don't care and destroyers can still come back and the monolith will just rain down death, I seen knights do poorly against crons a lot. I haven't faced them, but I seen crons pull out some wins against knights.

The dreadknight I take, because compared to other monsterous creatures it's really dirt cheap. It's very close in cost compared to two Paladins. I think the upgrades is a bit much. I pay 160pts for mine so it can have a hell hound cannon. Also I use the to be a walking cover save for my version of the rifleman dread. So far I haven't lost one thanks to good +5 and +2 rolling and eventually they just start trying to go for my riflemen dread hiding behind it. With 5 attacks on the charge and the flame template it has done well on the field so far. Also not many monsterous creatures can best the dreadknight at around the same cost.
If you spend 200+ points into it, then it's really too much. If the heavy incinerator wasn't working out for me then I would probably run it bar and run it up the table or summon it to a libbys location, but since I run a dreadknight I do run a venerable dreadnought, which is harder to kill, but with enough shots anything dies though.

4. I'm not saying riflemen dreads suck, I'm saying they're ok, because they can't deal with everything and the doble auto cannon limits the unit. The 4 strength 7 assault cannon shots gives it more versitility and with the 2 twin strength 8 shots it can deal with both vehicles and troops. The more cannons on the field is a good practice. The problem in 40k people see a winning army and overlook what can make it better or why it won. If you played against 1 army type or against noobs what good is the army.

I try the winnig builds and switch out stuff all the time. If you're going against foot marines for example, a riffleman dread can kill 1 marine while my build can come close to killing two. In the long run you wind up killing 6 marines when I killed 12 a whole squad and some more. If you're going against a 6 land raider blood angel list, or a space wolf storm shield term army. My dread would have the adaptability to deal with those armies while your's just sit there and look pretty.

[DarkLink]

on average that's 9 marine str 8 or higher shots or 12 guard str 8 or higher shots to kill my assassin that is around the same cost as a rifle dreadnought and can live longer as well thanks to a +2 cover.

A little basic mathammer shows that it takes, on average, 27 str 8 shots to kill a dreadnought with a 4+ cover save. It only takes 11 shots to instakill an assassin.

So which unit was more durable again?


In 2/3 of your missions you can get picked off rather easily, unless you deep strike your cannons in.

I've yet to be tabled in one turn, so this isn't a problem. By turn 2, psycannons will be in range of something. I can live with one wasted turn of shooting.

And should I point out the fact that psyrifle dreads provide significant firepower at 48", making your argument here a moot point and simultaneously undermining your argument that assault cannon dreads are better than psyrifles?



3. The double auto cannon dread withb 4 sr 8 attacks is a bit over kill and 2 is really enough against most vehicles. The psycannon add on helps. I tried both ways and found shooting 6 times is better then 4 times and the extra rending can come in handy.

There is no such thing as overkill, only open fire and reload. In 40k you want maximum effectiveness, not maximum efficiency. And what psycannon add on are you talking about?



That being said you're either running a 200 pt dread or one that cost the same as a Dreadknight. Also they both can take up other slots you can use like purigation, dreadknight, purifiers, tech marine, vindicare, etc. Also. Oth dreads have 12 armour which isn't that hard to pop. To use them the way you saying you have to take like 4-6 for 600-1000 points not leaving much room for anything else. The problem with the models is they paint a big target on them saying," Hey we're they only real range this army has, so please take us out."


I take 3, for 405pts total, and they are flat out amazing. This isn't debatable theory, this is based on how they have performed in literally every single game I've taken them.




5. Thousand Sons cost as much as a knight and can easily kill them in mid range shooting. Unless the Grey Knights fielding a Libby, if I pop your dreadnoughts then you don't have much for psyker protection. Another reason why Grey Knight dreadnoughts don't last long. Also with a +4 save the thousand sons can do well against a normal grey knight squad in combat, although rapid fireing out a rhino would pick up the knights with a little flamer action for good luck. I wouldn't normaly sugguest Thousand Sons, but a few units would do well against the grey knights.

TKsons suck. AP3 does not make them good. And did you seriously just say that the TKsons would do well in combat? Have you even looked at their unit entry?



Also I doubt you're getting a 4+ save against everything or half your shots either providing cover, or blocked by line on sight. The 50% rule makes it hard to fire both weapons and get a +4 cover. I put mine in cover as well, but unless I want to sacrifice some optimum shooting. I'm not getting cover from everything on the board the whole game, unless there is a terrain piece that just happens to be like a big tree blocking 50% to the model, but the arms extend out from the terrain not blocking sight on the weapons.

We have these things called Rhinos for controlling your unit's cover saves. They're really convenient. Try them out sometime.



Also Riflemen dreads, the ones you run, without assault cannons, can fire at a land raider until they blue in the face and won't blow it up anytime soon.

So? The rest of your list should have the tools to deal with land raiders, so this is a pointless argument, especially when you consider that psyrifle dreads are significantly better against literally every other vehicle.



With a Vindicare I have a really good chance of taking out a raider with a 2/4 to hit, a 10 on 4 dice, and with a roll of 4 or higher bye, bye landraider which cost 100 points more then the assassin.

So about a 1 in 3 chance of killing a Land Raider? Not that bad.


Rifflemen dreads will have problems with dealing with 13 or highr armour and need multiple shots to deal with higher armour. The riflemen dreads are great for 12 armour and below.

Psyrifle dreads aren't for dealing with av 14. They're for dealing with the fact that everyone and their mother takes as many rhinos as possible.

And just a side note, psyrifle dreads are better than psycannons against av13. Psyrifles are twinlinked, glance on 5s and pen on 6s. Psycannons are not twinlinked, and only pen on 6s, no glances.




If I decide to run a grandmaster, I would run Mordack with Paladins and deep stike them turn 1 in my opponets face.

You realize that, Mordrack not being an IC, he cannot join a unit of Paladins.



The tech marine being an Elite choice I really don't see why you're compaing him to HQs.

You're still spending points on a 1 wound, expensive character. That's why he compares to the HQs. GK HQs are force multipliers (which is also exactly what the techmarine is). Techmarines compete for points with GK HQs as a result. The only reason slots matter is that you can use a techmarine to take grenades if you run out of HQs, but that doesn't stop it from being a mediocre option in general.



3. Going back to one armour 12 is not that hard to defeat.

So? That's why you take three. If you lose all your dreads then, you're doing something wrong.



Heck as a Daemon player I easily kill them by taking them out of cover and shooting a str 8 shot in it's rear. Although I respect warp rift and pray I go first.

You must play against really bad GK players. If he can't protect his dread from getting shot in the rear armor, especially if he has warp rift, he doesn't know what he's doing.



The problem with the riflemen is that they scream threat. As a guard player I would target the crap out of them,

So? In fact, that's a good thing. I'd rather have my IG opponent wasting his firepower on psyrifle dreads in cover rather than on my GKs moving up to kill him. The psyrifle dreads will pop a few vehicles, then die after a few turns

And since IG are one of the few armies with the firepower to actually win a gunfight with a bunch of psyrifle dreads, this argument becomes moot against almost anyone else.




The dreadknight I take, because compared to other monsterous creatures it's really dirt cheap.

Taking something because it's cheap isn't as good an idea as taking something because its effective, and the dreadknight isn't particularly effective.




4. I'm not saying riflemen dreads suck, I'm saying they're ok, because they can't deal with everything and the doble auto cannon limits the unit. The 4 strength 7 assault cannon shots gives it more versitility and with the 2 twin strength 8 shots it can deal with both vehicles and troops. The more cannons on the field is a good practice. The problem in 40k people see a winning army and overlook what can make it better or why it won. If you played against 1 army type or against noobs what good is the army.

So long as your list has the tools to deal with anything (which GKs do), the versatility of a single unit is secondary to its effectiveness. The vast majority of lists out there have something that is very vulnerable to psyrifle dreads, far more so than the assault cannon dread.4 twin linked str 8 is better than 4 str 7 shots with rending against 90% of the armies out there. It doesn't matter if you're facing an occasional land raider, because your list should have the tools to deal with it elsewhere.




I try the winnig builds and switch out stuff all the time. If you're going against foot marines for example, a riffleman dread can kill 1 marine while my build can come close to killing two. In the long run you wind up killing 6 marines when I killed 12 a whole squad and some more. If you're going against a 6 land raider blood angel list, or a space wolf storm shield term army. My dread would have the adaptability to deal with those armies while your's just sit there and look pretty.

So you're saying that against 1% of the armies out there (and I might mention that all three lists you mention aren't very good), your Dreadnought is slightly better than a psyrifle? Of course, against the other 99% of armies out there, psyrifle Dreads are significantly better than yours.

[Denied]

I would reply but it seems my good friend DarkLink has taken the liberty of taking apart your terrible argument and poorly constructed lists.

I am done trying to explain the inaccuracy's in your lists and arguments, you tire me. It is clear to anyone who has touched the Grey Knights codex that you are wrong in your assessments of their assets and general play style.

I wash my hands of you sir. Good day.

[chicop76]

A little basic mathammer shows that it takes, on average, 27 str 8 shots to kill a dreadnought with a 4+ cover save. It only takes 11 shots to instakill an assassin.

So which unit was more durable again?



I've yet to be tabled in one turn, so this isn't a problem. By turn 2, psycannons will be in range of something. I can live with one wasted turn of shooting.

And should I point out the fact that psyrifle dreads provide significant firepower at 48", making your argument here a moot point and simultaneously undermining your argument that assault cannon dreads are better than psyrifles?



There is no such thing as overkill, only open fire and reload. In 40k you want maximum effectiveness, not maximum efficiency. And what psycannon add on are you talking about?




I take 3, for 405pts total, and they are flat out amazing. This isn't debatable theory, this is based on how they have performed in literally every single game I've taken them.




TKsons suck. AP3 does not make them good. And did you seriously just say that the TKsons would do well in combat? Have you even looked at their unit entry?



We have these things called Rhinos for controlling your unit's cover saves. They're really convenient. Try them out sometime.



So? The rest of your list should have the tools to deal with land raiders, so this is a pointless argument, especially when you consider that psyrifle dreads are significantly better against literally every other vehicle.



So about a 1 in 3 chance of killing a Land Raider? Not that bad.



Psyrifle dreads aren't for dealing with av 14. They're for dealing with the fact that everyone and their mother takes as many rhinos as possible.

And just a side note, psyrifle dreads are better than psycannons against av13. Psyrifles are twinlinked, glance on 5s and pen on 6s. Psycannons are not twinlinked, and only pen on 6s, no glances.




You realize that, Mordrack not being an IC, he cannot join a unit of Paladins.



You're still spending points on a 1 wound, expensive character. That's why he compares to the HQs. GK HQs are force multipliers (which is also exactly what the techmarine is). Techmarines compete for points with GK HQs as a result. The only reason slots matter is that you can use a techmarine to take grenades if you run out of HQs, but that doesn't stop it from being a mediocre option in general.



So? That's why you take three. If you lose all your dreads then, you're doing something wrong.



You must play against really bad GK players. If he can't protect his dread from getting shot in the rear armor, especially if he has warp rift, he doesn't know what he's doing.



So? In fact, that's a good thing. I'd rather have my IG opponent wasting his firepower on psyrifle dreads in cover rather than on my GKs moving up to kill him. The psyrifle dreads will pop a few vehicles, then die after a few turns

And since IG are one of the few armies with the firepower to actually win a gunfight with a bunch of psyrifle dreads, this argument becomes moot against almost anyone else.




Taking something because it's cheap isn't as good an idea as taking something because its effective, and the dreadknight isn't particularly effective.




So long as your list has the tools to deal with anything (which GKs do), the versatility of a single unit is secondary to its effectiveness. The vast majority of lists out there have something that is very vulnerable to psyrifle dreads, far more so than the assault cannon dread.4 twin linked str 8 is better than 4 str 7 shots with rending against 90% of the armies out there. It doesn't matter if you're facing an occasional land raider, because your list should have the tools to deal with it elsewhere.




So you're saying that against 1% of the armies out there (and I might mention that all three lists you mention aren't very good), your Dreadnought is slightly better than a psyrifle? Of course, against the other 99% of armies out there, psyrifle Dreads are significantly better than yours.

1Si. I think you're missing the point. We're comparing 4 twin strength 8 to 2 twin strength 8 and 4 strength 7 rending shots. The arguments you make is invalid for the simple point you're taking off the auto cannon and attacking the psycannon portion of the dreadnought. The arguments for the auto cannon is valid for my build as well, since I do have 2 str 8 shots as well. The double auto cannon is more effective pass 24", while mine is more effective at under 24".

2. 27 strength 8 shots really at what bs. 27 with marine bs would hit 18 times, 9 would go through, 4.5 thanks to a +4. So with 6 pens and 3 glancing knocked down to 3 pens and 1.5 glancing. So hope it's not a bolt shot or shots from an exorcist.

The Assassin still have to receive a decent amount of shots liked you said not going towards my army.

Also your're behind a rhino, great I pop the rhino and your dreadnought is cought out in the open.

3. The point I was making was with 2 strength 8 I don't have a problem doing the same as 4 strength 8. Within 24" I'm still putting out 6 shots.

4. Like I said before, it's not a bad unit, just it has a please shoot me sign hanging from it's back.

5. Sigh. I guess you forget about the tsons force weapon. Tsons will rapid fire and assault when needed. Standing still a typical 10 man grey knight squad will kill 2.5 tsons, while the tsons will kill around 2.5 greyknights, more then likely less thanks to slow and purposeful, but the tsons rapid fire and flame attack will either wipe out a squad or leave it one man standing. The fact tson can move and fire 24" away can kil 2-3 Grey Knights rather easy. I suggest a squad or two not a whole army of tsons.

6. Who doesn't use a rhino???

7. No it's not. You act like landraider list don't exist. Typically 2 and a storm raven is not unheard of. Also not like Necons not going to run a mono. Also Tau hammerheads with a 4+ and battle wagons with 4+ is quite common as well.

8. The Vindicare have like a 2/3 chance of getting a resault of 2 or higher on the damage chart so not bad at all.

9. Again you missed the point. If you fired everything you have and the raider is still there you have more options. Also you miss the point of more shot output 2 psycannons = 8 and 2 auto cannons = 4, 1 has double the shots

10. My bad . Meant ghost knights.

11. Never had the one wound guy die yet. Instant death will still kill both the same, also the Tech Marine have more weapon optons. The only thing I can see kiling him is wound allocation in shooting and thaks to a 2+ that's hard to do.

12. Not really. If a str 9 bascalisk hit your armour it hits side armour 11 and get to rol 2 dice for armour pen. Unlucky for you no cover save. So a really good chance for a pen and 1/3 chance taking you out. Marbo with a demo charge or demo charging sws, hive guard can cause problems, etc.

13. I am going to have to break this down for you. So far my daemons fought 4 different grey knight armies and won most of the time or draw. It helps playing Grey Knights back in 4th. Anyway let me explain.

A. We die off to see who goes first. This I've found is very important for me. If I go first then warp rift is pretty much useless, if I go second I try to deep strike roughly 20" away from strike and interceptor squads. So if I go first against the knights I tend to beat them badly.

B. I deep strike in the Masque. If you don't know she can possibly move 3 units d6". Very helpful dragging units out of cover, turning dreadoughts around with their backs facing me, bunching up unit together for flamer attacks, etc.

C. Once the Masque pulls your nought in the open with the rear exposed I fire upon said unit with bolt of tzeentch coming from horrors, price, herald, Fate Weaver, etc. Now that your rear armour is 10 and bolt is strength 8, I need a 2 to glance and a 3 or higher to pen. Being ap 1 I need 4 or higher to kill it, so 2 bolt shots that hitting on 2 from my prince or fateweaver tend to do the trick.

D. Another tactic is that I drop 3 horrors near the unit and glance it to death, thanks to fortitude this tactic makes my life harder.

E. I'm debating on running blue scribs just in case I roll bad and the Masque doesn't come in.

14. You have Tau, shooty Orcs, razorback/ speeder/ shoty marine armies spam, dark eldar, nahhh not that many shooting armies out there.

15. Hmmmm. The list I mentioned is not that uncommon. I have the benifit of playing at 7 different stores and Vassal.

[Kawauso]

7. No it's not. You act like landraider list don't exist. Typically 2 and a storm raven is not unheard of. Also not like Necons not going to run a mono. Also Tau hammerheads with a 4+ and battle wagons with 4+ is quite common as well.



I'd just like to take a moment to point out on behalf of the Necrons that GK have almost nothing that can threaten a Monolith all that much.

Melta won't get the extra D6 for pen, Vindicare only rolls 1D6 + S3 with no chance of rending (this was not ammended in the latest GK FAQ, so the old exception made for Turbo Penetrator rounds no longer applies), and Psycannons won't get any rending on a Monolith, either. Neither will your upgraded Assault Cannon.

[chicop76]

I'd just like to take a moment to point out on behalf of the Necrons that GK have almost nothing that can threaten a Monolith all that much.

Melta won't get the extra D6 for pen, Vindicare only rolls 1D6 + S3 with no chance of rending (this was not ammended in the latest GK FAQ, so the old exception made for Turbo Penetrator rounds no longer applies), and Psycannons won't get any rending on a Monolith, either. Neither will your upgraded Assault Cannon.

Lascannons from a Landraider or StormRaven and melta with a 6 to armour pen and a 6 on the damage table. Other then that nothing really can deal with them.

I like one Necron Player who kept his Monos backwards. He would teleport models through the mono for the re roll on we will be back and block line of sight so his models couldn't phase out. He would also keep both monos on objectives teleporting scoring units to the objectives the monolith was sitting on. Boy he ran a lot of destroyers, I really hated that list.

[Kawauso]

Lascannons from a Landraider or StormRaven and melta with a 6 to armour pen and a 6 on the damage table. Other then that nothing really can deal with them.

I like one Necron Player who kept his Monos backwards. He would teleport models through the mono for the re roll on we will be back and block line of sight so his models couldn't phase out. He would also keep both monos on objectives teleporting scoring units to the objectives the monolith was sitting on. Boy he ran a lot of destroyers, I really hated that list.

Melta can only glance Monoliths on a 6. They're 14 all around, remember.

Lascannons can pen on a 6, yes, but remember they can pen Land Raiders on a 6 as well, and everyone should be aware of how well that normally works out.

Necrons may not have a great book in 5th, but damn if they don't have a tough-as-nails tank.

[chicop76]

Melta can only glance Monoliths on a 6. They're 14 all around, remember.

Lascannons can pen on a 6, yes, but remember they can pen Land Raiders on a 6 as well, and everyone should be aware of how well that normally works out.

Necrons may not have a great book in 5th, but damn if they don't have a tough-as-nails tank.

Melta is AP 1 s a 6 on the damage chart would still wreck a Mono. I almost forgot that with psykers they can drop a strength 10 ap 1 pie plate on the Monolith.

[chicop76]

I would reply but it seems my good friend DarkLink has taken the liberty of taking apart your terrible argument and poorly constructed lists.

I am done trying to explain the inaccuracy's in your lists and arguments, you tire me. It is clear to anyone who has touched the Grey Knights codex that you are wrong in your assessments of their assets and general play style.

I wash my hands of you sir. Good day.

What list. I have played my Grey Knights and won many games with them. All I see you doing is being a fan boy to Darklink. I can atleast respect Darklink for forming an opinion, which I don't agree with. Some things mentioned only work on newbs etc.

All I see from you Denied is a yes man attitude and no attempt to back up what you say. Bullying, insulting, shows that you're very close minded and can't clearly play well, because it's obvious you probablly do the same in a game and need to do so to win.

I try to cover all scenerios and possible missions. I almost drop the Vindicare when I got dawn of war against Tau. Instead I outflanked with him and used him in combat. Sure I rather take out a vehicle or kill suits, but I was forced to use him in combat, due to what the fates had dished out to me.

Same reason why I don't use a storm raven as well or don't suggest one. I might no say anything about it, because I think it's a bad option for Grey Knights and a much better option for Blood Angels. For Grey Knights if it survived I still easily take it out of commission with so far Nids, Daemons, Witch Hunters, Guard, and Tau. If it gets close I make sure a throw away unit get killed by usually different Paladins, while I rapid fire plasma, breath of chaos, str 10 ap 2 pie plate or str 8 ap 2 demo, melta them, etc because they gt cought out in the open.

I call Paladins a unit like Nurgle space marines, if you build an army that can't deal with them it's going to be boss and the unit will steam roll over your army. If all you play aginst is people who field 5-40 terminators, storm ravens, and nurgle marines you tend to not be surprised when Grey Knights send a Storm Raven across with 2 Terminators. They're still not as bad as Thunder Calv although more cost effective.

The point is ignoring any suggestions is a sign of a fool. Different meta games will determine builds in the area. If you fight marines all the time, then your army will be anti marine, etc.

The forum is a place where I can get differant experiances from differant players and use them for my own ends. I don't agree with the 4 auto cannon dread for a multiple of reasons.

1. It's geared for long range shooting and nothing else, I like options to deal with any situation
2. I don't have many assault cannons in my army and need them to pick it up to balance my army out, helps greatly against nids, the double auto cannon is less useful against that army.
3. I played games with it and tried differant combos until I found the one that works with my play style
4. I keep my noughts close for aegis protection
5. Another cookie cutter build, in some tournaments it will cause you points
6. Not very original
7. Predictable, obvious, expected
8. Just another cut and paste internet army everyone can see coming, or unit

Sniper Dreadnoughts don't work well if Ghazkill assaults it from the rear, wolf scouts with rear melta, etc. Then going to Bols con in Texas you se the tactics and prepare and now how to deal with them. Battle Reports galore give me a good indication on how people use the unit etc.

Armies that's build to a players style tend to do beter then cookie cutter builds. Leaf Blower for example losing allies hurt it, but it lacked troop screen support and depended on a huge amount of templae weapons at cheap cost to carry the day. I fought it 5 times with my daemons and won or tied with it. The only lost 2 losses I had was leaf blower with 50 man guard squads with a commissar. I did poorly twice cause I didn't know how to deal with it. The next two games I tied and won once, after I recap my batles I learned from my mistakes and stop assaulting the 50 man squad and just bnch them togther and blew them away. I also was able to defeat leaf blower twice with my nids as well, thanks to Tyrannofex shooting and Tervigons crushing vehicles.

Darklink can support his thoughts while you Denied can't do the same.

[DarkLink]

I'm not a fan of GK Storm Ravens, either. Fragile, overpriced, and they lack the str 8 ap 1 missiles the BA have. GK Storm Ravens are only good for delivering units directly into assault, and that's not what the GK codex needs.


1. It's geared for long range shooting and nothing else, I like options to deal with any situation

The rest of a good list is good at dealing with most any other situation. The psyrifle dread just happens to cover a number of weaknesses that the rest of the army has (range, ability to kill light vehicles).



2. I don't have many assault cannons in my army and need them to pick it up to balance my army out, helps greatly against nids, the double auto cannon is less useful against that army.

I'll take the greater range, ability to ID T4 and the TL shots over rending in almost every case, including against 'nidz. I like being able to be really far away from genestealers and still be able to shoot whatever I want. Plus, you've already got a number of psycannons, so it's not like you lack rending.



4. I keep my noughts close for aegis protection

You can still move psyrifle dreads forward if need be. The 12" range is pretty generous there, and just because you have a 48" range doesn't mean you need to use it.



7. Predictable, obvious, expected
8. Just another cut and paste internet army everyone can see coming, or unit

If there were an easy way to counter it, then sure. But not everything relies on surprise in order to be effective. In fact, there are quite a few units that are very, very predictable and yet are very, very good. "Hey, I wonder what that unit of THSS Terminators is going to try to do?"



Sniper Dreadnoughts don't work well if Ghazkill assaults it from the rear, wolf scouts with rear melta, etc. Then going to Bols con in Texas you se the tactics and prepare and now how to deal with them. Battle Reports galore give me a good indication on how people use the unit etc.

Like I said, just because you have range doesn't mean you need to use it. If there's an outflanking threat, just keep your whole army away from the board edge. You've still got plenty of GK units that are pretty potent in CC to make sure your Dreads don't get tied up in combat, and so long as the psyrifle dread keeps shooting it will carry its weight.

[chicop76]

I'm not a fan of GK Storm Ravens, either. Fragile, overpriced, and they lack the str 8 ap 1 missiles the BA have. GK Storm Ravens are only good for delivering units directly into assault, and that's not what the GK codex needs.



The rest of a good list is good at dealing with most any other situation. The psyrifle dread just happens to cover a number of weaknesses that the rest of the army has (range, ability to kill light vehicles).



I'll take the greater range, ability to ID T4 and the TL shots over rending in almost every case, including against 'nidz. I like being able to be really far away from genestealers and still be able to shoot whatever I want. Plus, you've already got a number of psycannons, so it's not like you lack rending.



You can still move psyrifle dreads forward if need be. The 12" range is pretty generous there, and just because you have a 48" range doesn't mean you need to use it.



If there were an easy way to counter it, then sure. But not everything relies on surprise in order to be effective. In fact, there are quite a few units that are very, very predictable and yet are very, very good. "Hey, I wonder what that unit of THSS Terminators is going to try to do?"



Like I said, just because you have range doesn't mean you need to use it. If there's an outflanking threat, just keep your whole army away from the board edge. You've still got plenty of GK units that are pretty potent in CC to make sure your Dreads don't get tied up in combat, and so long as the psyrifle dread keeps shooting it will carry its weight.

Not saying not to take one or it's bad. With my Grey Knight list I field a lot of warbands. That being said I run 2 psycannons out side of my dreadnoughts on a strike squad. That being said if I was to field more cannons by fielding more Grey Knights I would probably go with the twin auto cannons, since I'm not running that many I will keep my psy cannon and strength 8 auto cannon build.

I'm played with purifiers with 4 psycannons and put them in an empty Chimera which has done really well, but I've found I'm forced to take Corteaz and a Grandmaster or Crowe( which is surprisingly good in a high end Purifier list with 24 psycannons in your troop slot), I combat squad the Purifiers 1 with 4 psycannons and 1 with 5 Halbreds.

Right now I'm playing around with using psykers. 8 is great for str 10 ap 1, but is rather costly when they blow up. Now I'm playing around with 5 which provides a str 7 ap 2 large blast to deal with terminators. They work well with 3 melta gunners and a psycannon Inquisitor with terminator armour in a chimera. I had 2 in each transport for str 4 ap 5 which was great against horde and was only 20 pts.