Base Size and Model Size

[AngelsofDeath]

Throwing this out there to see if there is any specific ruling in black and white, and to get peoples opinions.

As I have been playing more 40K and going to more competative events (I even attended WargamesCon) I noticed alot of models that were not on the correct sized bases. I could not find a base size rule or portion in the 40K rule book. So I looked at the boxes that these models came in to see the correct bases, and it amazed me how many people are not using the correct sized bases for the models.

So to point out a few. I seen some older Termi's on the 25mm bases instead of the 40mm. Seen some models that should have been on 25mm bases that were placed on 40mm bases. Seen a guard player who had his missile launcher teams on 25mm bases instead of 60mm bases. Seen bikes of all kids ( both Marine and Ork) on 60mm bases instead of the correct bike bases. Seen big creatures forced on to smaller bases where the thing was balanced on a 40mm base. This has been over the course of a few months and not just at one place.

And the one that blows me away over and over again has to be the Ork Battlewagon.... I did mention bases and model size so hear me out. Well there is an Ork Battlewagon that GW has made and I have seen the actual model, it costs $66.00 ( So does my Land Raider :mad: ) and is a pretty cool model. I could not tell you the actual size of it, my Land Raider measures 4in wide by 7in long which is the hull, and the GW Battle Wagon seemed to measure up to it when I played against it.

So my point is...why and how do people get away with making these scratch built Battle wagons that are almost twice the size of the actual model? The death roller on the front looks like a roll of paper towels and the whole model can shield 1/2 an Ork army from shooting. I know Ork players like the Orkyness and all the building, but there has to be a point where enough is enough.

Well any input or thoughs would be great....Sorry Gork and Mork not trying to offend, I actually love killing Orks :D

[Nabterayl]

The only rules are that (i) models must be glued onto their bases if the miniature is normally supplied with a plastic base and (ii) you should make sure your opponent doesn't mind mounting models on different-than-normal-sized bases before the game. Both of these are found on page 3. These are often boiled to "models must be played on the base they came with."

This obviously allows a certain amount of variation in base size. If a person glues his terminators to 25mm bases because that's what they were on when he bought them, he's in the right. Certainly I know there are missile launcher teams that are sold that way.

But the truth is, I think, the common formulation misses the point of the rule. I think the only actual rule in 5th edition is that if a model is normally sold with a base of some kind, it must be mounted on a base of some kind. Rhinos may be based, but need not be because they aren't normally sold with bases. Terminators, by contrast, must be based in some way because they are normally sold with a base of some kind. End of rule. The rule doesn't really answer the tournament question because ... well, because it doesn't. That's not what it's trying to do.

As for my personal perspective on the tournament question (I assume by "tournament" we mean a gathering of gamers for the purpose of organized competition, rather than a gathering of gamers hosted by somebody who is simply providing space for folks to get together and play), I see no problem with missile launcher teams that are on a pair of 25mm bases, bikes on 60mm bases, or models on bases that are too large or too small as long as the tournament organizer has a ready answer for how such models should be treated (e.g., if I were TO, I'd say that a monster crammed onto a smaller base is deemed to have a base size equal to its footprint, and that the missile launcher team counted as two models for all purposes other than transport, the death of either one would cause the other to be removed from play as a non-casualty). At a tournament, in my opinion, it's always the TO's fault - rather than the players' - if a ready answer is not available.

As for the battlewagon ... I certainly don't think using scratch-built or kitbashed models violates the spirit of the game. If I were TO and I were really concerned about people gaming the form factors of their models, though, I think the rule I would be most happy with is to simply throw out any model with a non-standard hull that (i) exceeded one of the standard dimensions by greater than 50% or (ii) had a forward arc 50% wider or narrower than the standard.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Lots of people dislike how thin and weedy the current battlewagon is, there are several tutorials (http://blog.spikeybits.com/2010/02/super-battlewagon-orky-conversion.html) about how to graft two together to make a larger one. The results look pretty awesome, way better than the current one!

And if anyone can get so worked up about someone's toy plastic soldiers, then really, the joke's on them.

[LidlessPraetor]

Personally, I kind of thought that was the appeal of playing orks (not that I do). Being able to kit bash from your bits box and make a truly unique and individual model is not something most armies can do. Honestly, I think it's very fluffy for the army and the proportions of those wagons isn't that much more than the others. Most comp lists have to carry so much anti-mech these days that it's really a non-issue to me.

[Lerra]

I game with the old metal fiends of slaanesh - the ones that are about half the size of the current model. A few people have had problems with them, but most let it slide because I run 18 fiends and the current models are $22.25 each (or $400 for three squads). My fiends are GW models, even if they're old. My squad leaders are converted to stand as tall as the modern fiend model, so it's easy to tell how tall the squad is supposed to be.

We have a local player who bought his Ork army 10-15 years ago and has the old metal Trukks that are pint-sized. He put them on bases that are the size of the current trukk hull and we treat them as if they were the size of the current model. It works out fine.

Personally, I dislike it when people argue that you ought to replace/repaint models that aren't the standard size. It's easy enough to come to a gentleman's agreement about how to handle them. Usually a quick, "Hey, I know the Captain is supposed to be on a 25mm base, but I put him on a 40mm because otherwise his feet hang off the edge. We can treat it like a 25mm base when he's disembarking or any other time when a larger base might benefit me. Fair enough?"

[AngelsofDeath]

I agree with what people say. I have not told a person he could not play with a model due to base size ever or because there was a newer one out. Was just seeing if anyone had seen a rule or FAQ talking about specific base size requirements.

As far as the Battle Wagon I understand it is part of the Orky fluff. But when a person can take 3 battlewagons and each is 10in wide and they can put them side by side and in effect screen the whole army there has to be a point where ya say "Hold on". Thats almost 1/2 the table.

Well like I said, I was just seeing if there is a rule on these issues or not....but guess there really isnt.

[Nabterayl]

I think that's because tournaments take away the most important rule (http://store.penny-arcade.com/products/pat070181), leaving the onus on the tournament organizer to make it back up.

[thecactusman17]

At my FLGS, we've just made a habit of adding the following statement to our tournament rules: "Models should be mounted on the base size of the most recent release of that model where possible."

Typically, if there is a discrepency, it's something that can be worked around. for example, I left my Wyches and Warriors in my car over the course of a few hot days recently, and the bases warped. I just make a point of noting when models with parped bases are being targeted and offer a small bit of leniency where possible on the measurement, so long as my opponent does the same.

[Denzark]

I have many ancient citadel miniatures - from a collection built up over many years, not to try and get around sizes.

I have always been given to understand you may use the base provided - so my Abaddon is on a 25mm base. Some/most IG regiments made of metal back in the day had single base special weapon members. I use Mk I rhinos in my army. I hate 40mm bases as they get better charge range when disembarking and also take up more space in carry cases.

The only area where I have concern is the Battlewagon issue.

[AngelsofDeath]

I think that's because tournaments take away the most important rule (http://store.penny-arcade.com/products/pat070181), leaving the onus on the tournament organizer to make it back up.

What? I dont understand what your point is here...even after clicking on that crappy link....shrug

[Nabterayl]

My point was that the rules assume you won't kitbash a six-foot wide battlewagon because the most important rule is, essentially, don't be a d*ck. The assumption that gives that rule teeth is that people won't play with people who are d*cks, so d*ckery weeds itself out of the player pool. But that assumption doesn't hold true at tournaments, so the rule, while still in effect, is toothless. It is up to the tournament organizer to find another way of giving the rule teeth.

[OdinStormfist]

An interesting thread. What would you all say to home made Mycetic spores. I modeled them about as tall as a Drop pod. Also since they are able to safely carry 1 Monstrous Creature or up to 20 regular sized models I made it so it covers approximately the same amount of area (foot print) as a land raider. What to you all think?

[thecactusman17]

An interesting thread. What would you all say to home made Mycetic spores. I modeled them about as tall as a Drop pod. Also since they are able to safely carry 1 Monstrous Creature or up to 20 regular sized models I made it so it covers approximately the same amount of area (foot print) as a land raider. What to you all think?

Why would it need to cover that much area? A standard drop pod brings down a whole dreadnought, it hardly needs the footprint of a landraider. The height sounds fine, but you should probably have it no larger than a CD or large blast template at most. Something that large is just going to completely obliterate LOS on whatever table you are playing on.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Why would it need to cover that much area?

Well, seeing as the most spacious Land Raider can carry 16 25mm base infantry, one could potentially argue that modeling a Spore, which can carry 20 25mm base infantry, with a similar base area is actually a little bit small. :P

Personally, I'd keep it in the sam dimensions as the Marine Drop Pod (and assume 'Gaunts are just rolled up into balls and stacked on top of each other while being transported), but having them be that big is plausible.

[pgarfunkle]

I'm sure I've seen something from GW saying that the model should either be on the base it was provided with or at least the base should be appropriate to the model's size. So for instance if you've made a nice big conversion of your army generally and now looks a bit silly on the 25mm base it was supplied on then it should be OK to bump up to a larger size.

On the case of models changing on base sizes when they are re issued they should be fine on whatever the model was supplied with at the time, fits GWs comments on the issue

Saying that though I have some old Imperial Guard heavy weapons teams on the 25mm bases which I have bought 60mm bases for as I wanted to add some basing detail to fit in with the newer kits and so just sit the old models on top during the game and remove to represent the team losing a wound.

[AngelsofDeath]

My point was that the rules assume you won't kitbash a six-foot wide battlewagon because the most important rule is, essentially, don't be a d*ck. The assumption that gives that rule teeth is that people won't play with people who are d*cks, so d*ckery weeds itself out of the player pool. But that assumption doesn't hold true at tournaments, so the rule, while still in effect, is toothless. It is up to the tournament organizer to find another way of giving the rule teeth.

Oh....so thats what it means. When I clicked on the link I got someone trying to sell me a Jesus t-shirt for $17.99. Funny how things are just lost in translation.......

[AngelsofDeath]

An interesting thread. What would you all say to home made Mycetic spores. I modeled them about as tall as a Drop pod. Also since they are able to safely carry 1 Monstrous Creature or up to 20 regular sized models I made it so it covers approximately the same amount of area (foot print) as a land raider. What to you all think?

I would think that so long as the foot print covers the same area as the large monster base or maybe a bit bigger it would be fine. I play with Drop Pods and when they open they take up alot of room. I point out to players that the base of the drop pod is what counts, the doors once they hit the ground have been deemed nothing more then decoration. So not sure if your Spore opens up as well?

And in your situation there is not a model for this yet. If we played and an issue came up we would just discuss it no problem. Post a pic if you can be glad to discuss it. Thanks

[OdinStormfist]

Well, seeing as the most spacious Land Raider can carry 16 25mm base infantry, one could potentially argue that modeling a Spore, which can carry 20 25mm base infantry, with a similar base area is actually a little bit small. :P

Personally, I'd keep it in the same dimensions as the Marine Drop Pod (and assume 'Gaunts are just rolled up into balls and stacked on top of each other while being transported), but having them be that big is plausible.

That is what I was thinking.

I was shooting for drop pod size but the foam extended the base size. Here are some pics to get an idea of the scale. I don't think it's excessive. no where near the size of some of those battlewagons I saw at Wargames Con.

Here are some pics to get an idea of the real scale. Again I do not think this is unacceptable.

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc449/OdinStormfist/Tyranids/Nids021.jpg
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc449/OdinStormfist/Tyranids/Nids028.jpg

[Nabterayl]

I wouldn't find that unacceptable. I would find it badass.

[OdinStormfist]

I wouldn't find that unacceptable. I would find it badass.

thanks!:)

[AngelsofDeath]

Very cool indeed. Great conversion work. Thanks for the pics.

I dont want to come off as having a double standard but I dont have a problem with this. First off there isnt a real model in production to reference it too. You are trying to fit the fluff by making it actually big enough to carry 20+ models or a Large creature.Alot of the vehicles in 40K are not even close to scale. For example the Space Marine Drop pod would be a squeeze for a Dreadnought, or to put 10 Marines in a Rhino. But your model looks like it could carry anything.

So I would give it to ya until GW came out with an actual model, which I would think would be about the size of a drop pod. Especially since it is only T4 with 3 wounds.

[OdinStormfist]

Very cool indeed. Great conversion work. Thanks for the pics.

I dont want to come off as having a double standard but I dont have a problem with this. First off there isnt a real model in production to reference it too. You are trying to fit the fluff by making it actually big enough to carry 20+ models or a Large creature.Alot of the vehicles in 40K are not even close to scale. For example the Space Marine Drop pod would be a squeeze for a Dreadnought, or to put 10 Marines in a Rhino. But your model looks like it could carry anything.

So I would give it to ya until GW came out with an actual model, which I would think would be about the size of a drop pod. Especially since it is only T4 with 3 wounds.

Thanks,

When they do come out with a Mycetic Spore I will buy some. But with GW's track record I don't see that happening for years, if ever.

Again I was going with the premises that it's a monstrous creature than can carry a monstrous creature or 20 regular sized models through the atmosphere, burst open after impact, and spew out other models.

I do agree that some converts and scratch builds can be questionable. But I have personally always erred on the side of acceptance because I believe in having fun first and foremost, even if I lose the battle,

[thecactusman17]

That looks amazing, and I would totally allow it on the table. I might object however, to two or three at that size, simply because it would add another 25% or more effective LOS blocking terrain to the table. That's not meant to be dickish, just an observation on the sheer size.

[OdinStormfist]

That looks amazing, and I would totally allow it on the table. I might object however, to two or three at that size, simply because it would add another 25% or more effective LOS blocking terrain to the table. That's not meant to be dickish, just an observation on the sheer size.

Well, I have 3 but cannot ever see me using them except in an APOC gamer, but then with the size of things all bets are off! And this is a model that once killed (T:4/W:3/Sv:4+) is gone from the table so no biggie.