Counter Attack and ICs

[s_harrington]

Had an interesting thought stop me cold in a tournament tonight.

My Grandmaster gave my paladins Counter Attack. Great.
Then I attached the IC to the unit.
Does he benefit from counter attack as well?
The Grand Strategy is pretty clear you may not give the ability to ICs. But the USR keeps talking about the "unit" and not the models.
Strange.

So...

Does he benefit?
If yes, great, I handicapped myself but still had a great time.
If no, then can I use the IC's leadership to make the Counter Attack test for the attached unit?

Thanks.

[SeattleDV8]

The Counter-attack USR does not have an asterisk and is not lost when an IC joins the unit. BRB pg.74

[Wildeybeast]

Seattle is correct, the rules are clear that units and IC's do not lose counter attack when joining others without it. So in this example, the unit would still benefit from counter attack but the IC would not. However, you use the highest leadership value in the unit for Ld tests, so you may use his for the counter attack ability, even though he himself isn't making a counter attack. Seems a bit wierd but, there you go.

[s_harrington]

Whats sets Counter Attack apart from Rage or Stealth, which do impart the ability unto attached Independent Characters?

[Nabterayl]

Seattle is correct, the rules are clear that units and IC's do not lose counter attack when joining others without it.
This is true, but I think you draw the wrong conclusion from it. In this case:

Step 1: Grand Master and Paladins are two separate units.
Step 2: Paladins gain Counter-Attack via Grand Strategy. Grand Master unit does not have Counter-Attack; Paladin unit does have Counter-Attack.
Step 3: Grand Master joins Paladins.
Step 4: Paladins do not lose Counter-Attack because it is not asterisked.
Step 5: Grand Master and Paladins are now one unit. The unit has Counter-Attack.
As the Grand Master is part of a unit that has Counter-Attack, he benefits from the USR, even though he by himself would not. For the same reasons, if the Grand Master were to join a unit subject to Rage, he would be subject to rage, even though by himself he would not, and if he were to join a unit with Stealth, he would also have Stealth, even though by himself he would not.

To anticipate a potential objection: From Initiative 10 through Initiative 1 in an assault, the Grand Master potentially counts as a separate unit*, but by that time his unit has already made their Counter-Attack test, and he is either benefiting from the rule (because the test was passed) or not.

* To anticipate a further objection - the Grand Master is a separate unit whenever blows are struck, but this does not interfere with Nemesis force weapon activation for the following reason. Let us suppose that at least one Paladin has a halberd, the Grand Master has a sword, and they are fighting an Initiative 10 foe. At Initiative 10, the enemy may choose to target the Grand Master as a separate unit, as blows are being struck. However, the Grand Master is not yet a separate unit for any other purpose, so at Initiative 6 the Paladins may activate their force weapons, which will activate the force weapons of all models in the unit. At Initiative 4, the Grand Master becomes his own unit for purposes of striking blows, but his force weapon has already been activated.

[Tynskel]

one think to think about, however, is that the grand master is separate for attacks. So, wouldn't he technically lose counter attack the instant he attacks, because he is no longer a part of the unit?

just a thought.

[Foreigner]

one think to think about, however, is that the grand master is separate for attacks. So, wouldn't he technically lose counter attack the instant he attacks, because he is no longer a part of the unit?

just a thought.

This is a common misconception I see rather often from people.

If a character is attached to a unit, and that unit is then involved in assault, they do not cease to be a single unit. The character must individually be attacked, and individually attacks back, but they do not exist outside of the unit.

[Nabterayl]

one think to think about, however, is that the grand master is separate for attacks. So, wouldn't he technically lose counter attack the instant he attacks, because he is no longer a part of the unit?

just a thought.
By the time he becomes a separate unit he's already received the benefit of the Counter-Attack rule, so no.

[Tynskel]

By the time he becomes a separate unit he's already received the benefit of the Counter-Attack rule, so no.

well, not necessarily so, because when you leave a unit, you do not have the benefits (or drawbacks) of the unit. And that's what I am pointing out. The IC does not have the counter attack rule, in this case, it only benefits because it has joined the unit.

[Tynskel]

See this is sounding odd to me.

What about The Red Thirst?

The unit gains fealess and furious charge. Now a captain joins the unit. That means the captain has furious charge?

[Nabterayl]

Ah, my mistake ... that's what I get for not re-reading page 48, which points out, "Unless specified in the rule itself ... the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the [joined independent] character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

So Wildeybeast did have the correct analysis of the Counter-Attack example.

As for Rage and Stealth ... I don't think Stealth is conferred to an IC. Rage isn't either, really, except that of course the models that Rage are subject to have to move in a certain way, which might drag the IC out of the unit unless it decides to keep up.

[Tynskel]

Ah, that makes sense. I thought ICs didn't gain the benefits. I just couldn't remember where it said that.

[Wildeybeast]

Ah, my mistake ... that's what I get for not re-reading page 48, which points out, "Unless specified in the rule itself ... the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the [joined independent] character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

So Wildeybeast did have the correct analysis of the Counter-Attack example.

As for Rage and Stealth ... I don't think Stealth is conferred to an IC. Rage isn't either, really, except that of course the models that Rage are subject to have to move in a certain way, which might drag the IC out of the unit unless it decides to keep up.

As you say P48 makes it clear that the he does not gain the rule unless specified, so he would not benefit from stealth (he stands around looking concerned and confused whilst everyone else activates stealth fields). He simply doesn't get the improved cover save everyone else does. In the case of rage, he cannot get 'dragged out of the unit'. When part of the unit he "must obey the usual coherency rules" so if he is part of it then he has to move with it, as well as run and consolidate when the unit does. He can of course choose to leave it during the movement phase, but otherwise he must move in the same way, he can't choose to stay behind. If for some reason he can't move, then neither does the rest of the unit since they move at the slowest movement value. So I'd think carefully before putting a non-rage IC in a rage unit!

[Nabterayl]

In the case of rage, he cannot get 'dragged out of the unit'. When part of the unit he "must obey the usual coherency rules" so if he is part of it then he has to move with it, as well as run and consolidate when the unit does. He can of course choose to leave it during the movement phase, but otherwise he must move in the same way, he can't choose to stay behind. If for some reason he can't move, then neither does the rest of the unit since they move at the slowest movement value. So I'd think carefully before putting a non-rage IC in a rage unit!
That's what I meant. The models subject to Rage have to move as Rage dictates. The IC, not being subject to rage, can choose to move in a different direction - but if he moves out of coherency with the unit, he'll have left it, and if he doesn't move out of coherency with the unit, he's effectively choosing to move as if he had Rage.

[Anggul]

This is a common misconception I see rather often from people.

If a character is attached to a unit, and that unit is then involved in assault, they do not cease to be a single unit. The character must individually be attacked, and individually attacks back, but they do not exist outside of the unit.

Incorrect, Independent Characters are separate units in assault.

[Nabterayl]

No, Independent Characters are separate characters in assault "when the attacks are resolved." That is not the whole of assault.