Unbalanced Game?

[Bibbums]

Grey knights are elite and pretty damn awesome. However, have they shifted the balance of the game?

[MaltonNecromancer]

What do you mean?

If it's "Are they broken?", then no.

If it's "Are they weak?", then also no.

If it's "Have they changed the metagame?", then yes, simply by virute of being a very low-model count army that has some exceptionally effective units.

Anything that challenges neckbeards suffering from Complacent Gaming Syndrome has to be good.

[Melissia]

The game itself is unbalanced; unbalanced in so confusing many ways that it's impossible to truly accurately and in detail describe the balance without a ten page essay, due to the varied interactions between the innumerable builds and armies, especially since luck and strategy both play very important roles in victory..

The GKs didn't make it worse :P

[Lerra]

The GKs have "shifted the balance of the game" like all new codices do by changing the meta. As far as power level, they seem to be roughly in line with the BA and SW dex . . . unless you're playing Daemons, in which case GKs are overpowered and extremely unbalanced.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

The game itself is unbalanced; unbalanced in so confusing many ways that it's impossible to truly accurately and in detail describe the balance without a ten page essay, due to the varied interactions between the innumerable builds and armies, especially since luck and strategy both play very important roles in victory..

The GKs didn't make it worse :P

They just made it awosemer... (apart from their fluff :L)

[MarneusCalgar]

Please, tell or make me find BALANCED games...

- Confrontation --> Unbalanced with the monthly new miniature

- Helldorado --> Unbalanced

- Infinity --> Unbalanced

- 40K --> Unbalanced

And that´s the games I´ve played...

[Lord Azaghul]

Most games are unbalanced, however I think most imbalance is really a perception of something not fitting either A: a persons easy of use or B: play style.

However, I think GK's are simply rude to all other space marine codices.

[DrLove42]

Short of releasing brand new versions of every armies codexes, all at the same time there will always be unbalenced

[DarkLink]

... unless you're playing Daemons, in which case GKs are overpowered and extremely unbalanced.

Actually, a lot of Daemon units are really, really good against GKs. A khorne heavy daemon list in particular can be an extremely difficult matchup for the GK player.


Please, tell or make me find BALANCED games...

- Confrontation --> Unbalanced with the monthly new miniature

- Helldorado --> Unbalanced

- Infinity --> Unbalanced

- 40K --> Unbalanced

And that´s the games I´ve played...

Warmachine is somewhat balanced (though it also has a rock-paper-scissors quality, but it solves that by letting you take two lists to a tournament typically so you don't have to worry as much about facing that one list that can crush yours effortlessly). It mainly achieves it through its brutal win conditions. You can lose almost every model in your army, but you still have a shot at victory if you can just get a shot at their warcaster, or pull off the win condition. Even if you're slaughtering your opponent, you can't get sloppy because if you mess up, they can come back and win it.

[drwholives]

They are so broken its believable. DE are very balanced you also cannot make a leaf blower or an list that can overpower every army. But GK can i have seen it first hand. I am not a terrible player nor do i make bad lists but i cannot beat GK lists. I think they need to make all codex's like they make Starcraft or COmmand and Conquer, and what i mean is different but fair. No race in Starcraft is more powerful then the other the same goes for Command and Conquer.

If you think that GK codex is not broken...... you either play GK and love winning or you just plain suck and do not know how to build a good list.

[Mauglum.]

Hi all,
Well there are games with provable levels of ballance.
Eg they use a FIXED method of determining PV which is proven by years of game play.
And they use army composition to reduce the effects of synergistic imballance.

Armies of Arcana , Full Trust, Firefly, ChallengerII, to name a few.

As 40k rules are primarily used to '...sell toy soldiers to children...'

Its only the skill of the game developers that allow the current ( minimal) levels of balance in the game.

40k uses inapropriate game mechanics that result in loads of additional rules , USRs , Vehicles rules , and codex special rules.
Its no wonder the devs have a hard time getting things ballanced !:eek:

[Lord Azaghul]

They are so broken its believable. DE are very balanced you also cannot make a leaf blower or an list that can overpower every army. .


I would actually call DE broken in the sense that they are VERY good at raping infanty heavy armies and force the meta to mech up.

[daboarder]

The game itself is unbalanced; unbalanced in so confusing many ways that it's impossible to truly accurately and in detail describe the balance without a ten page essay, due to the varied interactions between the innumerable builds and armies, especially since luck and strategy both play very important roles in victory..

The GKs didn't make it worse :P

What she said.

[Anggul]

Let's put it this way... don't plan on using any Eldar close combat but Wyches and Harlequins, and don't even try to think that Slaaneshi chaos marines are going to help. Halberds were a ridiculous idea which Mat Ward seems to have put in just because he couldn't stand the thought of his precious spehss mahreens being out-done at something, namely speed.

Did I mention psyk-out grenades? Because Tyranids really needed to be worse. The fact that they get so much extra stuff for absolutely no cost really throws most armies off.

[MarneusCalgar]

Warmachine is somewhat balanced (though it also has a rock-paper-scissors quality, but it solves that by letting you take two lists to a tournament typically so you don't have to worry as much about facing that one list that can crush yours effortlessly). It mainly achieves it through its brutal win conditions. You can lose almost every model in your army, but you still have a shot at victory if you can just get a shot at their warcaster, or pull off the win condition. Even if you're slaughtering your opponent, you can't get sloppy because if you mess up, they can come back and win it.

Didn´t know that. Thanks!!

But I still think in 40K can occur the same thing... Just two bad dices and you say bye bye

[drwholives]

Quote:
Originally Posted by drwholives View Post
They are so broken its believable. DE are very balanced you also cannot make a leaf blower or an list that can overpower every army. .

I would actually call DE broken in the sense that they are VERY good at raping infanty heavy armies and force the meta to mech up.
__________________
http://s1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/Lordazaghul/
Are u joking?? DE is balanced GK is not on so many levels. Try 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts who DE cant destroy because unless you destroy it which is hard enough to do since you have to reroll on the damage table hoping not to get a 1 or 2. If you do stunn it the next turn they just roll a phyic test to ignore it...they dont even have to pay for it no points its free!!!! On top of that All physic test's are at -4 if your close enough to a verable or attacking it. They can take 2 twin linked autcannon which out shoot all of the dark eldar vehicles and with physbolt ammo they are strength 8 not stregth 7 which can easliy take out a Raider or any DE vehicle you cant make that many flickerfield saves. Oh and stick a libraian close by and you can give these monsters a cover save if they didnt have 9 lives already.
THat is just one unit do i really need to expalin any other of the broken units.
I played a list that had 3 verables 2 dreads, purgataion squad, libraian and some troops i cant rember off the top of my head. It rocked me 3 games in a row..Mind you i play DE and i in no way suck at this game, i was borderline about to quit. SO EXPLAIN TO ME HOW DE ARE OVERPOWERED.....

[BuFFo]

Grey knights are elite and pretty damn awesome. However, have they shifted the balance of the game?

40k was never balanced in the first place. So who cares about shifting skewed balance.

[murrburger]

I think your link is more of a demonstration of the writer being skilled/lucky than DE being broken.

Not to mention that the 'Best General' award went to a SM player.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Grey Knights really arent that bad..? I mean, they have a ****e load of weaknesses (I.E they are still just basic marines, and destructors hurt them just the same, so on so forth. I do feel drwholives seems to have a hate GK agender too, seeing as the Dread example is easily countered by the fact that: yes, Psyrifle dreads are killey, and venerables are hard to kill... But a re-roll on the chart isnt that much of a god sent, I made my dread explode with the re-roll. Take what I say, as from a man who doesnt play tournaments though :L (btw Draigo doesn't like combat with Dreadnoughts)

[Souba]

so far GK have been not that op. if they would have been op we would be seeing them more on the winning side anyway.

ah yeah and drwholives... seriously? you sound like a codex jumper that couldnt afford the GK codex after spending his whole money on the dark eldar book and is now crying his heart out that he couldnt jump on the next bandwagon.

[steelmage99]

You dont even need to be experienced with them to trash all other armies.

Here have an example:
http://rumorsofheresy.blogspot.com/2011/07/bolsgamescon-gt-tournament-report.html
It´s ridiculous.



You cannot seriously use this tournament report as an example of how DE is broken.
Did you even read the bat reps?

[chicop76]

Grey Knights are not op. The problem with them is they're designed to do well against marine armies, and nids. Guard, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels are far worst. Another problem with Grey Knights is the army plays differant then most armies out there. If you don't read the codex grey knights can surprise you.

The int 6 halbreds make it harder for high int armies to deal with them, but lok at the cost. 200 pts for a10 man bare squad. 250 with all halbreds. 270 with 2 psycannons. 290 for strength 5 shooing thrown in an transport for 330 pts. It's an expensive unit that dies like any other marine army. The list have issues with anti-marine and terminator list. Also you have 1 storm shield terminator that cost almost 300 pts.

Now I never lost with my Knights, but I can see what can deal with them. The problem is people haven't geared or use to playing Grey Knights yet.

Dark Eldar is almost as bad as the leaf blower. I'm glad they nerfed the raider a bit, but it's still almost as bad as before. Here is an example of one of the units that causes problems

173 pts 4 Trueborn with 4 blasters and a Venom with 2 cannons. Anything within 24" of the Venom can get hhit with 4 lance weapons with the Trueborn inside. If they pop out that's a range of 32". This squa| can do some serious damage to vehicles while the Venom with it's 12 poison shots deal with anything else. If it was cheaper like a guard pcs with 4 melta in a chimera for 125 pts I would say it was cheezy. Although the Dark Eldar build is more accurate and puts out more shots.

Also a +2 Invulnerable save. With a blaster pistol and an agonizer the Archon is one of the better HQs in the game. Throw in drugs, soul trap, etc. With power from pain it gets annoying. I've seen 2 Archons with Incubi wipe out half an army by themselves. Let's not go into Vect, I'm just saying you're crazy not to take an archon. Also Grey Knights still have trouble with wytches due to a +4 invul save and still striking at the same time. Harlequins mess up Grey Knights as well.

With Space Wolves you have Thunder Calv and storm shield terms, which would give grey knights problems as well.


It's the same reason why I destroy most people with Daemons, because people are not use to what they do.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Grey Knights really arent that bad..? I mean, they have a ****e load of weaknesses

I can't think of a five-letter swearword that ends in "e."

[chicop76]

I can't think of a five-letter swearword that ends in "e."

****e ???

I guess that was it. It begins in S.

[drwholives]

so far GK have been not that op. if they would have been op we would be seeing them more on the winning side anyway.

ah yeah and drwholives... seriously? you sound like a codex jumper that couldnt afford the GK codex after spending his whole money on the dark eldar book and is now crying his heart out that he couldnt jump on the next bandwagon.

¿A codex jumper? Well i guess you got me on that one, i mean after waiting 12 years for a new codex i did JUMP from the old one to the new one. As for $$$ i have a great job and if i wanted to i could afford to buy a grey knights army But i hate SM armies i like Xeno's. I also Have Necron armies that i have been waiting for there update as well. So i guess i will be a "CODEX JUMPER" when the new codex comes out?

Your logic SOUB has much to be Desired.

[w7west]

GK tends to be an easier army for me to beat. I play dark eldar, and the standard issue grey knights seems to be dreads with autocannons, a stormraven or two, and a healthy amount of foot termies/pallies.

I don't mean to be rude but the army seems to excel in noob slaying, but not much else. Small squads that have to fully commit by turn 3 if they want to get to an objective are just too easy to take advantage of when you have high volume of range 36 shots and everything can turbo.

That said gk can take some downright scary units for the points (deathcult assassins cheaper than incubi? wtf?) and I have not played against an army that takes advantage of that yet. For the time being all the gk players around here are stuck on the same lists that bank everything on three dreads.

[newtoncain]

STR 8 x 4 shots TL for 135 on a Dreadnought Chassis is just wrong.

5pts per vehicle to ignoir stun/shaken results on a 10 or less is just broken. Other armies pay 15pts to make 2s = 1s. CSM pays 20pts to ingoir 1-2s and -1 BS.

On the possitive side, They are good at killing wolves, which in my area is a good thing.

DE are great, not broken, but really good with that meta venom build. ALso any build is competivie for the DE.

[Kall3m0n]

I play Tau, and have played against both the old and the new GK and still haven't lost a game.

Their low modelcount and somewhat lack of movement is making it easy.
Sure, the 2+ and 2 wounds suck, but with enough shots they will fail.

[Bard of Twilight]

I used to play the old Grey Knights, but I'm deeply irritated due to the fact that everyone just started playing them, and so I gave them up , in favor of Jetdars. Having made clear that I,m not an GK player, I'ld to remind to some people, that every time a Marine Codex is released we have the same story: Codex marines were broken, the Wolves were broken, the BA were broken, and the GK are now broken. Well, it can't work that way, cause if all these were truly broken, ther wouldn't be any armies at Tournaments, apart of them. Furthermore, I find The GK totally lack, what their siblings, the Wolves and the BA didn't: variety

[Hive Mind]

Up until today I didn't think so, but I lost (badly) to GK today so now they're obviously overpowered, cheesy, beardy, broken and anything else people like to throw around when they can't handle getting beaten.

[w7west]

... Codex marines were broken, the Wolves were broken, the BA were broken, and the GK are now broken. Well, it can't work that way, cause if all these were truly broken, ther wouldn't be any armies at Tournaments, apart of them...

Most tourneys in my area feature very few armies apart from these. Obviously you have one or two of the 40 year old guys who can afford $2,000+ of mech guard. There was a tau player at one once. He didn't show up for the next one...