Grey Knights Vs Dark Eldar

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

So, this late summer/Autumn sees the start of a big 40K campaign happening for my club, and the main protagonists are Dark Eldar, Eldar and GK, Guard and likely some other Marines at some point. The kick off match is a spectacular of my GK Vs Dark Eldar. Points aren't an issue, here's what I have model-wise:

Draigo
Librarian
Crowe
Stern
10xPurifiers (currently with Halberds, 2 with Incinerator)
5xInterceptors (Halberds and Incineratorx1)
Purgatorsx5 (4xPsycannons)
Paladins or GK Terms x 17 (1 Ward Stave and psycannon, 1 D/Hammer, 1 Falchions, 1 Apoth/Sword, 5 Swords, the rest halberds and psycannonsx4)
2 Stormbirds
Rhino, Razorback and Land Raider (two are S Wolves, but meh)
2 Dread Knights (both have NG Swords, One has psilencer, other has psycannon and Hv Incinerator)
2 Venerable Dreadnoughts (I don't like Psyrifle, have had better experiences with Lascannon in all honesty - I know you guys swear by them, but that's not been my experience, especially Vs Guard)

I have new packs of GK Terminators and PAGK ready to add to this.
Personally, I am thinking Paladin overload (I don't rate Terminators to stave off mass firepower) - but what should I be looking out for? What should my tactics be? And what to do with my unassembled minis?

[newtoncain]

if the De palyer is smart and knows he is playing GKs = FF and NS on all of his vehicals = your range 24 is now range 18 with 5+ invul.

[DrLove42]

Any Eldar player worth his salt playing GK will take a farseer with Runes. You'll be taking every Physic test on 3D6 and Perils 50% of the time...

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Cool, so far I have answers to those - Vindicare should do the DE vehicles some damage, or sheer weight of fire - luckily psybolts can take them out, so most of my army has a shot at that.

Farseers are different - last time I hit it in turn 2 with Mindstrike Missiles - that sorted him out.

Other suggestions for dispatching these welcome though

[DrLove42]

Vindicare will do the job double quick against a Farseer as well...i shield breaker and hes got no save (they only get invulns)

One thing Eldar of all varieties hate (especially me) is having the battle dictated to them. They need the speed and ability to strike where they want to win. A stormraven dropping a Dread straight were they don't want it is a pain in the ***

[Blood Lord Soldado]

Heavy incinerator is very strong vs DE.

Negates FF and is unaffected by nightshields basically.

I seen a dude get pretty luck and down a venom and raider in 1 turn with 1 well placed shot.

Jumping heavy incinerator Dreadknights are pretty hard to deal with.

Dok on my Blog has a lot of detail on those shenanigans, as well as other GK strats.

[thecactusman17]

So, this late summer/Autumn sees the start of a big 40K campaign happening for my club, and the main protagonists are Dark Eldar, Eldar and GK, Guard and likely some other Marines at some point. The kick off match is a spectacular of my GK Vs Dark Eldar. Points aren't an issue, here's what I have model-wise:

Draigo
Librarian
Crowe
Stern
We eat the elite armies for breakfast. The fewer models on the board, especially with 3+ saves, the better for us. Keep that in mind.

10xPurifiers (currently with Halberds, 2 with Incinerator)
Surprisingly, this isn't a bad setup even though most people would prefer Psycannons. Incinerators always have the same range against our vehicles. Halberds will keep you and your opponent going at the same time in CC.

5xInterceptors (Halberds and Incineratorx1)
Purgatorsx5 (4xPsycannons)
Critical assault and shooting units, but be aware that your Purgators are going to be nearly useless until his vehicles go down if he has nightshields. Place them in the center of the board and 1-2 levels up if possible, deepstrike if you must to get that to happen.

Paladins or GK Terms x 17 (1 Ward Stave and psycannon, 1 D/Hammer, 1 Falchions, 1 Apoth/Sword, 5 Swords, the rest halberds and psycannonsx4)
We don't care. Safely ignored 90% of the time, especially Paladins. The ONLY way you can deliver these is to put them in the birds or DS them on top of a critical objective that we already control or placed with the expectation that only we could control it.

2 Stormbirds
These are going to be critical vs. DE. This is your primary delivery mechanism for anything you want to get into assault, and it's still going to take some doing to make that work if your opponent is focused.these are the first two units to affect with Grand Strategy, and you want to give them scout.

Rhino, Razorback and Land Raider (two are S Wolves, but meh)
What sort of Landraider? The Landraider is probably best served by taking lascannons or Flamestorm templates. In each case, you won't worry about range of guns to his vehicles.

2 Dread Knights (both have NG Swords, One has psilencer, other has psycannon and Hv Incinerator)
The incinerator here is going to be one of your best weapons. Weapons with templates aren't reduced by Nightshields, and you can position them to hit multiple enemy vehicles or units.

2 Venerable Dreadnoughts (I don't like Psyrifle, have had better experiences with Lascannon in all honesty - I know you guys swear by them, but that's not been my experience, especially Vs Guard)
Lascannon/ML dreads are great for dealing with DE vehicles with their long range, and the small blasts do good vs. Infantry.

I have new packs of GK Terminators and PAGK ready to add to this.
Personally, I am thinking Paladin overload (I don't rate Terminators to stave off mass firepower) - but what should I be looking out for? What should my tactics be? And what to do with my unassembled minis?

Paladins tend to be underwhelming vs. Dark Eldar for a few reasons. First off, S8 AP2 weapons on almost everything means that you quickly lose these guys to ID from around the army even with an apothacary. Second, they are going to suffer the same range-reducing effects that any other GK mid-range shooting unit will when firing on Dark Eldar vehicles, and many players love fully mech'd DE for the sheer speed. You are going to invest almost half of your army into a single unit leaving far less to deal with his longer range and faster assaults.

[Xas]

you cannot make a stormraven scout with grand strategy. only infantry, monstrous creatures or walkers.

[Xaereth]

Heavy incinerator is very strong vs DE.

Negates FF and is unaffected by nightshields basically.

I seen a dude get pretty luck and down a venom and raider in 1 turn with 1 well placed shot.


Um... Flickerfield is an invulnerable save, meaning that you'll always get it unless it's something that specifically negates invulnerables, which Heavy Incinerators do not.

Figured you should know.

[DarkLink]

Grey Knights are practically purpose-built for destroying DE. Every GK unit can kill DE in both shooting and in CC. It's a big uphill battle for DE against a good GK list and player.

GKs can't take lots of losses, and DE need to get into close combat to do that sort of damage. GKs will easily outshoot DE armies thanks to all those storm bolters, psycannons and psyrifle dreads, so the DE player needs to be able to open up a couple Rhinos and wreck whatever's inside. If you can do that before the GK player can blow you away, you have a chance at winning.

Frankly, though, every single DE game I've played I've been very close to tabling my opponent by turn 5. Against shooty mech-based DE, I just blew him away. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. Another guy tried out a more CC wych centered army, with aether sails, and he faired better because he was able to get some stuff into CC and take out a few units, but I was still able to blow him away fairly easily.

I haven't played against webway portal DE, so I don't know how they would fare. But in general, against GKs the faster and more aggressive the DE army is, the better. If you can't be aggressive and do a lot of damage, you won't beat GKs with DE.



As for GK advice against DE:
1. One might think that Terminators/Paladins would suck against DE, due to all the lance weapons. One would be wrong. Take them, give them as many psycannons as you can, use Rhinos for a bit of cover and shoot the crap out of any DE that get close. Then counter assault with the Terminators to finish anything that gets close.

2. Spam psycannons, and hide behind Rhinos for cover. It'll be like shooting fish in a barrel. Use the Rhinos to block the DE charges once they get close enough, and you should buy yourself enough time to shoot up everything that gets close before it can seriously harm you in CC. When you have an opportunity, which you will with all your different guns that can kill DE vehicles, take out his fire support units like Ravagers.

3. Spam Psyrifle Dreads. Nightshields/flickerfields or no, a Psyrifle Dread allows you to pick one DE vehicle per Dread each turn and tell your opponent to remove it from the board.

4. Castle for the first few turns, then spread out to grab objectives once you've taken apart the majority of his army.

5. Librarians are great against DE, thanks to the Shrouding. Coteaz is awesome as well, since DE don't like Sanctuary much and hate cheap psybacks. Driago will save some Paladins from being ID'd. GMs and the other HQs are decent, but not quite as useful.


if the De palyer is smart and knows he is playing GKs = FF and NS on all of his
vehicals = your range 24 is now range 18 with 5+ invul.

A smart DE player has flickerfields on almost everything anyways, and possibly some night shields too. But, yes, both are great against GKs.

However, GKs can put so many rounds downrange that a 5+ save won't help much, and psyrifle dreads don't care about night shields. Every good GK list should have some psyrifle dreads, limiting the usefulness of night shields.

Aether sails are a good upgrade against GKs, since they let you get into combat faster which helps prevent you from being shot to death before doing anything useful.


Any Eldar player worth his salt playing GK will take a farseer with Runes. You'll be taking every Physic test on 3D6 and Perils 50% of the time...

This only really hurts GK Librarians. Almost all other GK psychic powers are either CC only (where GKs already have an advantage over eldar due to I6 and MEQ statline)

What's really going to make the difference in eldar vs. GK is whether or not the GKs can take down the eldar vehicles. Since eldar vehicles are tough, they might survive to contest. On the other hand, with so much str 7/8 shooting there probably isn't a better army for killing eldar than GKs, aside from maybe IG with lots of Hydras.

But, yes, an eldar player would be stupid not to take a farseer with runes of warding. They should be in pretty much every single eldar list.

[DarkLink]

We eat the elite armies for breakfast. The fewer models on the board, especially with 3+ saves, the better for us. Keep that in mind.

Unfortunately for DE, GKs eat AV 10 and T3 models for breakfast. And in my experience, GKs can do this a lot faster than DE can eat elite armies.



10xPurifiers (currently with Halberds, 2 with Incinerator)
Surprisingly, this isn't a bad setup even though most people would prefer Psycannons. Incinerators always have the same range against our vehicles. Halberds will keep you and your opponent going at the same time in CC.

Halberds are great, but I would go with psycannons. Kill DE vehicles that get close, and with Halberds and Cleansing Flame you don't really care if they get the charge on you.

The thing with incinerators vs psycannons is why would you let your opponent get close to you when you could just shoot them from 24" away. Plus psycannons can kill vehicles much better than incinerators?

Basically, psycannons are always better than incinerators, even though incinerators are good.



5xInterceptors (Halberds and Incineratorx1)
Purgatorsx5 (4xPsycannons)
Critical assault and shooting units, but be aware that your Purgators are going to be nearly useless until his vehicles go down if he has nightshields. Place them in the center of the board and 1-2 levels up if possible, deepstrike if you must to get that to happen.





Paladins or GK Terms x 17 (1 Ward Stave and psycannon, 1 D/Hammer, 1 Falchions, 1 Apoth/Sword, 5 Swords, the rest halberds and psycannonsx4)
We don't care. Safely ignored 90% of the time, especially Paladins. The ONLY way you can deliver these is to put them in the birds or DS them on top of a critical objective that we already control or placed with the expectation that only we could control it.

Or just march Paladins up the board like I've done in every game vs. DE I've played. In my experience, GKs present so many targets that the Paladins are actually not a very threatening unit, meaning they won't get shot much, meaning they'll live through most of the game. And since you get lots of psycannons with them, they can own DE vehicles when they get close enough, and with a proper HQ for backup they own most DE CC units in close combat.

So while the Paladins are still alive, the DE player can't really get close enough to do anything, but if they sit back and shoot the Paladins then even if the Paladins die the rest of the GK army can blow the DE player off the board. Kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I would suggest regular Terminators over Paladins against DE specifically, though, due to the DE's abundance of str 8 ap 2. 10 Terminators backed by a Librarian or GM is a nightmare to deal with, even for DE.

Driago also solves the problem with Paladins. By the time the DE player had managed to dark lance Driago to death, the GK player's psycannons should be close enough and had enough time to do their work.



2 Stormbirds
These are going to be critical vs. DE. This is your primary delivery mechanism for anything you want to get into assault, and it's still going to take some doing to make that work if your opponent is focused.these are the first two units to affect with Grand Strategy, and you want to give them scout.

The GK player doesn't want to run the gauntlet to get into CC with the DE player. He doesn't have to, as he has superior firepower. He can destroy any DE unit that gets close to him with storm bolters and psycannons, and kill any DE unit that tries to stay away with Psyrifle Dreads.

No, the DE player is the one who has to take the initiative and try and unbalance the GKs. GKs win a shooting match, but the right DE army has a chance to do a lot of damage in close combat while avoiding psycannons and psyrifle dreads.

GK player is the control army, DE is the beatdown. And since Storm Ravens are almost exclusively for delivering GKs into close combat, they're not very useful against DE.



Rhino, Razorback and Land Raider (two are S Wolves, but meh)
What sort of Landraider? The Landraider is probably best served by taking lascannons or Flamestorm templates. In each case, you won't worry about range of guns to his vehicles.

I would stick with Rhinos and Razorbacks. Land Raiders take too many points. Rhinos are disposable cover and charge blockers, and Razorbacks can do the same while also doing some damage. DE vehicles don't like TL str 6 heavy bolters.



2 Dread Knights (both have NG Swords, One has psilencer, other has psycannon and Hv Incinerator)
The incinerator here is going to be one of your best weapons. Weapons with templates aren't reduced by Nightshields, and you can position them to hit multiple enemy vehicles or units.

Incinerators are indeed the best weapon to take against DE, but Dreadknights in general are very meh, and DE in particular have the tools to deal with them. Poison weapons and agonizers laugh at Dreadknights. I would stick with other things.



2 Venerable Dreadnoughts (I don't like Psyrifle, have had better experiences with Lascannon in all honesty - I know you guys swear by them, but that's not been my experience, especially Vs Guard)
Lascannon/ML dreads are great for dealing with DE vehicles with their long range, and the small blasts do good vs. Infantry.

Psyrifle is better in every way than las/missile dreads. You must have really weird dice, or only ever face AV14 or something.

Four TL str 8 shots is far, far more reliable than 1 TL str 9 and one str 8 shot. And even though str 9 can pen AV14, your odds of doing damage is actually better with the psyrifle dread. A las/missile Dread causes .056 immobilized or greater results vs. armor 14 on average, while a psyrifle dread causes .099 immobilized results against AV 14*. Doing more damage results is better, especially since against land raiders all you need to do is immobilize it to basically kill it. Regardless, you should be using melta or psycannons against AV 14, since both are far better than either las/missile or psyrifle Dreads.

*math is for BS4 Dreads. BS 5 is roughly the same. For ven. Dreads, las/missile does .131 immobilized or better results on average, while psyrifle dreads do .108 immobilized results, so it is marginally better. But this is the only situation in which las/missile is better than psyrifle.

Regardless, psyrifle dreads are unquestionably better in every way against AV10, 11, 12 and 13. AV 14 is debatable, but against DE it's a moot point.



That aside, take both of these. DE hate long range firepower that can reliably pop their vehicles, which both types of Dreads can do. I would take them as regular Dread, since against DE you either kill them first or you don't kill them at all. Regular dreads are slightly more fragile, but do more damage per point, and you can use your extra points to squeeze in some extra psycannons elsewhere. Or get a third Dread.



I have new packs of GK Terminators and PAGK ready to add to this.
Personally, I am thinking Paladin overload (I don't rate Terminators to stave off mass firepower) - but what should I be looking out for? What should my tactics be? And what to do with my unassembled minis?
Paladins tend to be underwhelming vs. Dark Eldar for a few reasons. First off, S8 AP2 weapons on almost everything means that you quickly lose these guys to ID from around the army even with an apothacary. Second, they are going to suffer the same range-reducing effects that any other GK mid-range shooting unit will when firing on Dark Eldar vehicles, and many players love fully mech'd DE for the sheer speed. You are going to invest almost half of your army into a single unit leaving far less to deal with his longer range and faster assaults.

Paladins should never have an apothecary anyways. For precisely this reason, actually. It's an absurdly expensive upgrade that does very little to actually make Paladins tougher.

Anyways, I mentioned above, Paladins and Terminators are not bad choices at all. Even with night shields, you should be putting the pressure on the DE player to make him come to you. You might not get to shoot psycannons first round, but you will get to shoot them and stuff will die. The physical restriction of the board means that the DE player can't run for very long, and not everything in the DE army has night shields. Use psyrifle Dreads to take down what has night shields, while you move forward with psycannons and kill everything that comes within range.

Paladins and Terminators aren't the best way to pack in psycannons, but what they do is deny the DE player an effective assault. The DE player can't outshoot you, and if he tries to assault you he gets hammered by your Halberd-equipped Terminators/Paladins backed up by your HQ. You put him between a rock and a hard place, and with a good army and good play he's likely to get smashed between them.



Here's what I would recommend:

Librarian, Shrouding, Sanctuary, warp rift, quickening....170

2x5 Purifiers, 3 halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback w/ Psybolt ammo...392
(use your purgation squad psycannons here)

10 Terminators, 2 Psycannons, halberds, Brotherhood Banner, Psycannon Bolts.....495

6 GKSS, Psycannon, Razorback w/ Psybolt ammo....180

2 Ven. Psyrifle Dreads........390
(you might prefer las/missile, but I cannot in good conscious recommend las/missile over psyrifle)


That comes out to 1630. We're mainly limited by your relative lack of power armor guys here, I'd prefer to get a few more units with psycannons. Either way, this is a solid core, and you can add units to this as you see fit.

Just for fun, I'd try this for the last 370pts:
5 paladins, 2 Psycannons, wound allocation shennanigans....340
Buy a few random upgrades, and you're at 2000. You could do some other things, too.


The nice thing about this list is that it isn't really DE specific. You could take this GK list to a tournament and do pretty well. It's a good all-comers list. Most of the weaknesses in it are a result of a lack of certain models, so we can't really avoid that.


Alternatively, Driago+Librarian+ Paladins+Dreads is a good way to go as well, and you could also turn that into an all-comers list without much real difficulty. It's probably not quite as good due to Paladin's vulnerability to ID, but it would still do pretty well.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Dark Link, I want to say a big thank you for putting so much time into your responses - they've really helped me out a lot! Thanks to the other guys for chipping in too. I actually have about 4000 points to play with, so I'm not too fussed re: how much stuff costs, so I'm likely to use Draigo and Paladins, but I can now see what you mean re: the Psycannons in the Purifier Squad - they may be a CC horde breaker, but if their transport is popped early on, they suffer from not being able to deliver anything in terms of surefire Vehicle killing. I actually do agree with you on the psyrifle front against DE, the FF mean that weight of fire is more useful than surety of kill. I used Ven psyrifles against Guard and got chewed up against LRuss, but I can see the validity of using them against DE. Normal Eldar? Maybe a mixture. Unsure whether to drop the safety blanket of Venerable dreads, considering points aren't an issue I may just get another vanilla dread for Psyrifle duties. And I am sneaking in a Vindicare if I can swing the Force org chart all the way to the beginning again (house rule).

I have another box of PAGK to assemble, and I also FINALLY found 5 old metal ones I had stashed away, so that should help too. I know what you mean re: the Dreadknights, but I'm thinking of them as a diversion tactic, i.e. Deepstrike, fire and forget.

Once again, massive thanks! I have painting to do...

[Denied]

Again with these 4000pt lists .... you guys are crazy. To quote my self:

HQ: Librarian: 3x Servoskulls, Shrouding, Sanctuary, Might of Titan, Warp Rift – 185

Elite: 3x Venerable Dread: Multi-melta, doomfist, heavy flamer, psyflame ammo (loaded on SR)-570

Troops: 2x 6man Terminators: Psycannon, 2x Daemon Hammer, 4x Halbred- 530
1x 5 man Terminators: Psycannon, 2x Daemon Hammer, 3x Halbred- 225
3x 10man Strike Squad: 2x Psycannon, 1x Daemon hammer; Rhino – 810

Fast Attack: 3x Stormraven Gunship: TL Multi-Melta, TL Lascannon – 615

Heavy Support: 3x Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo- 405

Total: 3340pts

So .... if we want to spend more points we could turn the terminators into Paladins and drop the Venerable dreads then

Elites:
2x 6man Paladin: 2xPsycannon, 2x Daemon Hammer, 4x Halbred- 850
1x 5 man Paladin: 2xPsycannon, 2x Daemon Hammer, 3x Halbred- 370

and

Troops: 6x 10man Strike Squad: 2x Psycannon, 1x Daemon hammer; Rhino –1620

Total: 4045pts

or you can make one of your troop choices a 10 man Terminator squad and add a Grand Master to give you grand Strategy and another psycannon.

HQ: Grey Knight Grand Master: Psycannon, MC Halbred, Psykotroke, Rad, Blind- 265

Troops: 5x 10man Strike Squad: 2x Psycannon, 1x Daemon hammer; Rhino –1350
1x 10 man Terminators: 2x Psycannon, Brotherhood Banner, 2x DH, 8x Halbred- 475

Total :4515pts


Or you know you can use this as a guide to figure out what you want, but I would stay away from wasting points on bad things like Monkeys, Conversion Beams, or Orbital Strikes.


I personally would probably convert a couple of the Terminators in the Storm Ravens into Paladins then grab a 10 man Terminator squad and a Grand Master for Grand strategy. This would leave you only 2 Venerable Dreads, but meh :-P

I think with this list you can show the scrub IG/DE/Anyone! that nothing can stand in the way of the Emperors Will !!



Seriously man, Lists aren't going to help you though you need to get the experience of playing a static list and knowing how to use it against numerous opponents.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

The lists help, it's tactics that really come into it, such as trying to coral the DE into a small space for flamer and other template fun etc etc,

[Denied]

The lists help, it's tactics that really come into it, such as trying to coral the DE into a small space for flamer and other template fun etc etc,

You're Grey Knights the only time a template is even remotely useful is when fighting horde armies like Nids, IG, and Orks.

If you are templating DE you are doing it wrong imo....

With DE they are going to want to come to you, have your three (or 6 if you have Venerable slots to use) Psyfile Dreads in a good place where they will get cover keep a Libby near them to provide Shrouding. Shoot his transports out of the sky. Now they have to come to you to fight and they have to do it while walking through 24"of Psycannons and Storm Bolters. By the time they get to you they are dead or dying. You will hve him tabled by turn 5 if you play it smart...

...Also please tell me your heavy support slots are full of Psyfile Dreads before you waste points on making them the Venerable Psyfile Dreads.

[thecactusman17]

Unfortunately for DE, GKs eat AV 10 and T3 models for breakfast. And in my experience, GKs can do this a lot faster than DE can eat elite armies.



Halberds are great, but I would go with psycannons. Kill DE vehicles that get close, and with Halberds and Cleansing Flame you don't really care if they get the charge on you.

The thing with incinerators vs psycannons is why would you let your opponent get close to you when you could just shoot them from 24" away. Plus psycannons can kill vehicles much better than incinerators?

Basically, psycannons are always better than incinerators, even though incinerators are good.







Or just march Paladins up the board like I've done in every game vs. DE I've played. In my experience, GKs present so many targets that the Paladins are actually not a very threatening unit, meaning they won't get shot much, meaning they'll live through most of the game. And since you get lots of psycannons with them, they can own DE vehicles when they get close enough, and with a proper HQ for backup they own most DE CC units in close combat.

So while the Paladins are still alive, the DE player can't really get close enough to do anything, but if they sit back and shoot the Paladins then even if the Paladins die the rest of the GK army can blow the DE player off the board. Kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I would suggest regular Terminators over Paladins against DE specifically, though, due to the DE's abundance of str 8 ap 2. 10 Terminators backed by a Librarian or GM is a nightmare to deal with, even for DE.

Driago also solves the problem with Paladins. By the time the DE player had managed to dark lance Driago to death, the GK player's psycannons should be close enough and had enough time to do their work.



The GK player doesn't want to run the gauntlet to get into CC with the DE player. He doesn't have to, as he has superior firepower. He can destroy any DE unit that gets close to him with storm bolters and psycannons, and kill any DE unit that tries to stay away with Psyrifle Dreads.

No, the DE player is the one who has to take the initiative and try and unbalance the GKs. GKs win a shooting match, but the right DE army has a chance to do a lot of damage in close combat while avoiding psycannons and psyrifle dreads.

GK player is the control army, DE is the beatdown. And since Storm Ravens are almost exclusively for delivering GKs into close combat, they're not very useful against DE.



I would stick with Rhinos and Razorbacks. Land Raiders take too many points. Rhinos are disposable cover and charge blockers, and Razorbacks can do the same while also doing some damage. DE vehicles don't like TL str 6 heavy bolters.



Incinerators are indeed the best weapon to take against DE, but Dreadknights in general are very meh, and DE in particular have the tools to deal with them. Poison weapons and agonizers laugh at Dreadknights. I would stick with other things.



Psyrifle is better in every way than las/missile dreads. You must have really weird dice, or only ever face AV14 or something.

Four TL str 8 shots is far, far more reliable than 1 TL str 9 and one str 8 shot. And even though str 9 can pen AV14, your odds of doing damage is actually better with the psyrifle dread. A las/missile Dread causes .056 immobilized or greater results vs. armor 14 on average, while a psyrifle dread causes .099 immobilized results against AV 14*. Doing more damage results is better, especially since against land raiders all you need to do is immobilize it to basically kill it. Regardless, you should be using melta or psycannons against AV 14, since both are far better than either las/missile or psyrifle Dreads.

*math is for BS4 Dreads. BS 5 is roughly the same. For ven. Dreads, las/missile does .131 immobilized or better results on average, while psyrifle dreads do .108 immobilized results, so it is marginally better. But this is the only situation in which las/missile is better than psyrifle.

Regardless, psyrifle dreads are unquestionably better in every way against AV10, 11, 12 and 13. AV 14 is debatable, but against DE it's a moot point.



That aside, take both of these. DE hate long range firepower that can reliably pop their vehicles, which both types of Dreads can do. I would take them as regular Dread, since against DE you either kill them first or you don't kill them at all. Regular dreads are slightly more fragile, but do more damage per point, and you can use your extra points to squeeze in some extra psycannons elsewhere. Or get a third Dread.



Paladins should never have an apothecary anyways. For precisely this reason, actually. It's an absurdly expensive upgrade that does very little to actually make Paladins tougher.

Anyways, I mentioned above, Paladins and Terminators are not bad choices at all. Even with night shields, you should be putting the pressure on the DE player to make him come to you. You might not get to shoot psycannons first round, but you will get to shoot them and stuff will die. The physical restriction of the board means that the DE player can't run for very long, and not everything in the DE army has night shields. Use psyrifle Dreads to take down what has night shields, while you move forward with psycannons and kill everything that comes within range.

Paladins and Terminators aren't the best way to pack in psycannons, but what they do is deny the DE player an effective assault. The DE player can't outshoot you, and if he tries to assault you he gets hammered by your Halberd-equipped Terminators/Paladins backed up by your HQ. You put him between a rock and a hard place, and with a good army and good play he's likely to get smashed between them.



Here's what I would recommend:

Librarian, Shrouding, Sanctuary, warp rift, quickening....170

2x5 Purifiers, 3 halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback w/ Psybolt ammo...392
(use your purgation squad psycannons here)

10 Terminators, 2 Psycannons, halberds, Brotherhood Banner, Psycannon Bolts.....495

6 GKSS, Psycannon, Razorback w/ Psybolt ammo....180

2 Ven. Psyrifle Dreads........390
(you might prefer las/missile, but I cannot in good conscious recommend las/missile over psyrifle)


That comes out to 1630. We're mainly limited by your relative lack of power armor guys here, I'd prefer to get a few more units with psycannons. Either way, this is a solid core, and you can add units to this as you see fit.

Just for fun, I'd try this for the last 370pts:
5 paladins, 2 Psycannons, wound allocation shennanigans....340
Buy a few random upgrades, and you're at 2000. You could do some other things, too.


The nice thing about this list is that it isn't really DE specific. You could take this GK list to a tournament and do pretty well. It's a good all-comers list. Most of the weaknesses in it are a result of a lack of certain models, so we can't really avoid that.


Alternatively, Driago+Librarian+ Paladins+Dreads is a good way to go as well, and you could also turn that into an all-comers list without much real difficulty. It's probably not quite as good due to Paladin's vulnerability to ID, but it would still do pretty well.

That will be a decent list. it's also going to be outranged by the DE as soon as they kill the two psyrifle dreads. And then all that has to happen for the rest of the game is kiting you around the board.

I'm not trying to say you are a bad player, I'm saying that you are approaching this from a purely dice standpoint. I'm playing it from the Dark Eldar standpoint--outmaneuver, exploit the weaknesses, disrupt his deployment options. And when he is sitting on the opposite end of the table with most of his heavy firepower at only half my range, I'm not going to worry about a "ridiculously unkillable" squad of guys who will at their best be able to attack one unit a turn charging across the table. I can avoid them and still direct firepower at his objective holders and easier killpoints.

Dark Eldar don't play against their opponents, they play with their opponents, and it's a very critical distinction.

[plawolf]

That will be a decent list. it's also going to be outranged by the DE as soon as they kill the two psyrifle dreads. And then all that has to happen for the rest of the game is kiting you around the board.

I'm not trying to say you are a bad player, I'm saying that you are approaching this from a purely dice standpoint. I'm playing it from the Dark Eldar standpoint--outmaneuver, exploit the weaknesses, disrupt his deployment options. And when he is sitting on the opposite end of the table with most of his heavy firepower at only half my range, I'm not going to worry about a "ridiculously unkillable" squad of guys who will at their best be able to attack one unit a turn charging across the table. I can avoid them and still direct firepower at his objective holders and easier killpoints.

Dark Eldar don't play against their opponents, they play with their opponents, and it's a very critical distinction.

Been there, done that, Darklink will just reply with endless stories about how ace he is and threaten to walk his padalins up the middle and table you. Cos he is just awesomesource and doesn't actually need a more in-depth strategy or plan B since he has so much skillz.

[DarkLink]

Dark Link, I want to say a big thank you for putting so much time into your responses - they've really helped me out a lot!

You're very welcome, I certainly hope they help out:).

I also don't want to discourage the use of other types of dreadnoughts, since everyone and their mother takes psyrifle dreads. They're just so absurdly good that I can't not recommend them, though. Ultimately, take what you want, and there are other good loadouts for dreads and other units than what I typically use.

On a side note, though, you could go with a TL las and TL autocannon over the las/missile. You still have the advantage of the lascannon, with the anti-tank superiority of the autocannon with psybolts.


Been there, done that, Darklink will just reply with endless stories about how ace he is and threaten to walk his padalins up the middle and table you. Cos he is just awesomesource and doesn't actually need a more in-depth strategy or plan B since he has so much skillz.

Exactly;). plawolf's got my back:).


it's also going to be outranged by the DE as soon as they kill the two psyrifle dreads. And then all that has to happen for the rest of the game is kiting you around the board.

In my experience with DE, this isn't that big of a problem. Ven. Dreads are rock hard, and DE don't have the greatest anti-tank. Anything that gets close enough to kill the dreads should be close enough to get hit by some Grey Knights. And in the couple of turns it takes to possibly kill the dreads the GK player can move the short ranged units into position where they don't leave much room to hide. The physical board is only so large, and GKs have a 30" threat range on their psycannons, assuming no nightshields.

What I would see more of a problem for GK players is getting assaulted by fast units as opposed to not having range to shoot. This is particularly the case if there are night shields. DE units have about a 21" assault range out of their vehicles, so it's possible for the DE player with night shields to avoid getting shot at all. This requires careful positioning on the part of the DE player in order to be just out of range, so it become a contest of who can judge distances better.

Nightshields also require you to prioritize targets a bit differently. Ravagers can now safely sit out of range behind the DE assault units in Raiders, putting out a lot of dark lance fire. It then falls to the GK player to figure out how to get past the DE assault units and kill the Raiders, or ignore the raiders and eat 9 dark lances a turn. Both are to the advantage of the DE player, and the shift in initiative is a game changer. If the GK player doesn't have the long range firepower to take out units like Ravagers, the DE player is in control of the flow of the game.

[me_yourself]

A lot has already been covered but I feel that as a DE player I should give my point of view. (I mostly play a warrior cabal with heavy emphasis on shooting and only cc for counterattacks)

First of. what do I least want to face? Lots of long-range fire power and vehicles. The first because it negates any redeployment and kiteing tacts and the second beacause DE have a hard time killing anything with an armour value.

As have already been said the thing in the Grey Knight book I fear the most is a rifle dread. It shoots a lot, with a range greater then mine, and is a walker. Against a normal marine army it would not be as much of a problem since I can shake it until it dies, but it does not work here. To follow up on this, a couple of rhinos or better razorbacks. Since even thought that we have a problem with tanks. If you don´t field enough then we can kill of what you got.

Regarding psycannons. In the current meta they are quite good. In the old codex DE was more of a far away army then it is now. Because people have moved quite heavily into blasters on warriors and trueborn to fill out their anti-tank since Dark lances are so expensive now. Meaning that the only lances you´l likely to see will be on ravagers and some raiders. And as soon as the Ravagers are dead they have to get close.

And regarding Ravagers. They are the key pieces in a DE army. They are the firebase around which the army is likely to be built. Once they are down the DE has to start take more risks. The only thing you kill before these are transports of the nasty cc units.


The recomended list is actually quite good. against DE anyway. but you´ll want at least one more dread to feel safe, if you face up against 30+ lances & blasters(which is possible) they can die in an alpha strike.
Another route the DE player might go against you is to just fokus out all the troops sincce you don+t have that many of them. So for the last points instead of paladins I would take a normal squad of grey knights to hold in reserve and walk in from the board edge were it is safe, and claim some objectives. And of course another dread.

Lastly. When playing against DE you must pay close atention to your deployment. You can lose the whole match if you deploy in a wrong way. I win a lot of games because the opponenst presents me with "openings" in their deployment. To sum it up it would something like. Don´t give him a clear shot to anything with longrange fire if the model/unit can move up and shoot. Grab cover. Don´t spread out, DE do not have acces to much in the blast weapon category so don´t be afraid to clump up. Just check before so that you can be certain. Because grouping up prevenst him from denying you. If you spread out he will likely redeploy in a turn to one side of the battlefield and wither you down from there.

If you face vect. Don´t be afraid to take first turn. Just deploy in the middle of the board and grab cover and place your models defensively. Depending on the list of course. Because he probably won´t dare to place his models to agresively since it is a 50% chance he won´t get first turn and then he is f##### is he placed himself in the open.


The cc parts I leave to someone who have that as their main playstyle :)

[BlindGunn]

...To sum it up it would something like. Don´t give him a clear shot to anything with longrange fire if the model/unit can move up and shoot. Grab cover. Don´t spread out, DE do not have acces to much in the blast weapon category so don´t be afraid to clump up. Just check before so that you can be certain. Because grouping up prevenst him from denying you. If you spread out he will likely redeploy in a turn to one side of the battlefield and wither you down from there.

I agree with MOST of what was said, except "Lack of Blast Weapons".

DE have access to both the Razorwing and the Voidraven - both of which will (probably) carry missiles with Large Blast radius.

If the DE player DOES NOT include either, I would agree - keep your army clumped up in cover, especially for that Mutual Supporting Fire the squads can give each other.

If the DE DOES include either (or both), you may need to re-evaluate your deployment and spread things out. Multiple infantry units clumped together mean a rich target for missile attack. Even with deviation, chances are a salvo of 4 missiles at 1 target unit will cause a lot of damage. If they deviate the right way, you could be faced with multiple units taking significant damage.

The missile attacks aren't terribly powerful to Marines (including Grey Knights), but the sheer volume of hits and wounds they can cause mean overwhelming numbers of armour saves. If DE include Splinter Cannon and Disintegrators as well to a Razorwing attack, the volume of fire put out is truely impressive. I've badly damaged a couple of units standing side-by-side with my "Main Target" with volley missile fire, while wiping out the main unit with the more accurate splinter cannon and dark lance fire (as well as the Missiles that didn't deviate (so much)).

The good news is: Not all DE players like the "Fliers". You won't always see this.

The bad news is: When a DE player loves fliers, there are usually MORE THAN 1!

(I prefer 2 Razorwings and a Ravager, myself!) :D

[w7west]

Cactus is right about the dreads.

Unfortunately for GK's, mech de is dangerous at 36" and with nightsheilds the only antitank in range will be the dreads.

It is true each time one of the dreads shoots it has a good chance of wrecking a vehicle. However, lances are really good at stunning things. Dark eldar typically are not short on lances either.

All de need do is keep the three walkers from shooting... Not a very good match for gk at all.

Purifiers are a great unit vs de since you actually have a chance vs wyches with them. The challenge is avoiding the torrent of range 36 poison and lance.

If de can keep 18" between them and the psycannons it is like playing against half of a normal space marine army.

[Tynskel]

you do forget that unless you are blasting weapons off the dreads, the Grey Knights just think really hard, and then they can shoot again.

[thecactusman17]

Cactus is right about the dreads.

Unfortunately for GK's, mech de is dangerous at 36" and with nightsheilds the only antitank in range will be the dreads.

It is true each time one of the dreads shoots it has a good chance of wrecking a vehicle. However, lances are really good at stunning things. Dark eldar typically are not short on lances either.

All de need do is keep the three walkers from shooting... Not a very good match for gk at all.

Purifiers are a great unit vs de since you actually have a chance vs wyches with them. The challenge is avoiding the torrent of range 36 poison and lance.

If de can keep 18" between them and the psycannons it is like playing against half of a normal space marine army.

Don't forget that Wyches with Haywire are also going to do all sorts of damage vs those dreads. Not only will you be playing without the double close combat weapons, but you will also be getting hit pretty much automatically with each successful hit against you.

Immobilizing one of those dreads is going to make it a sitting duck for CC haywire. I've nearly tabled all-dread armies with enough haywire wyches, they are not a fun matchup for someone who thought they were immune to anything short of a powerklaw or chainfist in CC.

[DarkLink]

you do forget that unless you are blasting weapons off the dreads, the Grey Knights just think really hard, and then they can shoot again.

What's the stunned result do again? ;)

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

He's referring to Fortitude, the psychic power you can use to clear Stunned and Shaken results from vehicles if you're GK

[Denied]

I don't even mark vehicles with stunned or shaken any more I just place two dice next to them and smile :-P

[DarkLink]

He's referring to Fortitude, the psychic power you can use to clear Stunned and Shaken results from vehicles if you're GK

I know, I was being sarcastic. I'm pretty much in the same boat as Denied. Hence the ";)".

[DarkLink]

Right, presuming the GK player positions his army properly, range is no real issue against shooty DE.

1. Dreads can touch pretty much the whole board, nightshields or no.

2. The DE player has to be within at least 36" of the Dreads to even touch them.

3. If the DE player is within 36" of the Dreads, he should be within 18-24" of the rest of the GK army.

Ergo, range is not as significant of an issue as one might think at first, even with nightshields.

Alternatively, the DE player can ignore the Dreads and hang back, shooting the GK frontlines. This keeps them relatively safe.

However, the board is only so large. GKs can move 6 and shoot 24". Assuming nightshields, that's a 24" threat range. 12" deploy+24" threat range, and there's not much room left on the board for the DE player to run. And thanks to the Run rule, the GK player should be able to shoot almost anywhere on the board turn 2 with psycannons and storm bolters.

And of course, because the DE player is ignoring the Dreads they can do their thing unhindered.

So against pure shooty DE, range is no issue.



Now, DE players can have some CC units. But by their very nature, the GK player will get to kill them early on in the game. Range is again not that much of an issue here.

The more CC the DE player has, the less that range is an issue, but GKs still have the tools to deal with hit-and-run shooty DE that try stay out of range.

[Anggul]

Fighting Dark Eldar with Grey Knights?

Halberds. The final word in 'but those guys are faster than me'.

Land Raider or Psyflemen dreads will be extremely useful simply because psycannons don't really have the range to bring down raiders before they're already where they want to be and have thus done their job. Your best bet is to storm-bolter anything possible, and if it's not a Wych, lift up your halberd and laugh at even Incubi. (I type this with a bitter heart as my Incubi take out their rage on the poor power-armoured ones without the luxury of putting their weapons on sticks.)