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CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-06-2011, 09:31 AM
I decided to give warmachine a try.The look & tactics of Cygnar seem to suit me best.My first purchase looks to be the battlegroup box,counters, & rulebook.The problem is I'm still under the free shipping total.The first few games will be battlegroup box games, (since everyone in my gaming group will just be getting started as well) but I was planning on ordering something else to get free shipping & since I know just a little more than nothing about this game.I thought this would be a good place to ask more experienced players for their input.The battlegroup will be my core for awhile,I want to learn how use them inside & out before I start changing the foundation of my army.With this in mind I ask,What would be your next choice to compliment the battlegroup.After your first choice,what others do you feel are essential to take the battlegroup to the next tier (I think battlegroups are 15pts & the next usual evolution is 25,please let me know if I'm mistaken).

wittdooley
07-06-2011, 10:30 AM
The Battle Group is a really great way to start your Cygnar army, to be sure. If you're intent on stickin with Stryker, it is certainly worth your time to get an Ol' Rowdy model. He's Stryker's personal Warjack and gets a ton of free activiations that make him really dangerous.

For some smaller types, you could look at:

Black 13th - Really versatile, really inexpensive unit. Honestly, a great building block for a Cygnar force.

Journeyman Warcaster - Again, an inexpensive option that works in nearly all army lists. You'll want one eventually.

Squire - The "turkey" is able to help you be more focus efficient, and grants some other nice powers.

Arlan Strangeways - Another really nice, inexpensive solo. Can be utilized almost like Journeman Warcaster.

The thing about Stryker is that he's a really versatile caster. He can do a lot with a lot of different builds. Surprisingly, I think I'd look at some of our solo options as your jumping off place, and then expand from there as you figure out how you like to play them

scadugenga
07-06-2011, 11:32 AM
The battle box starters are actually 11 points each. So you have 4 points to go to get up to 15.

Points are really what you decide to play. 15/25/35/50 tends to be the standard deviations, though--with 35 points being thought of as comparable to a 1500-1750pt game of 40k in terms of scope/duration.

There are a lot of great solos and units with Cygnar that might help you with the basic Stryker box.

The aforementioned Journeyman Warcaster & Strangeways are great solos--strangeways particularly.

You don't have a lot of ranged combat--so Stormsmith Callers, Black 13th, & Trencher chaingun/cannon could help with that in the 4 points or less category. Or you could go with a unit of Sword Knights for some added boots on the field. 15 points kinda limits you in that dept.

At 25 points, you have a lot more leeway. :)

the_puritan
07-06-2011, 07:31 PM
I would echo the Black 13th sentiments. They're a fantastic unit that you'll get a lot of milage out of (not to mention your money's worth). They're 4 points and bring you up to 15 exactly.

How much do you need to spend to get there?

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-06-2011, 09:54 PM
Thank you all for taking the time to reply & help me out.I been playing tabletop games for about 20 years & I have found that starting a new game/army is a tricky business.I often picked model/units that look cool or alot of fun to paint/model only to find,once on the table that they don't fit the theme of my army or have no real roll on the battlefield.It'll be nice to get it right for a change,there is nothing I hate more than painting up a nice unit that ends up doing nothing more than holding down my book case.With your input in mind,I've decided to go with the Black 13th(my lucky # by the way,lets hope that pleases the dice gods).I only needed $10 for free shipping & I can get the 13th for $12 & it'll bring my 11pt army up to 15pts.Now I just have to wait for them to come in the mail. :(

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-06-2011, 11:02 PM
Now that I know what the foundation of my army is (first 15pts at least) & that it'll be a little while before they arrive.I thought we could discuss a few general questions to pass the time.First off,what will this army do well,what tactics should I employ to bring their strengths to bare on the enemy?What are its weaknesses,what tactics should I employ to minimize this lists short comings?Keep in mind generalizations are fine,I've played enough games to know that all factors can't be accounted for & what looks good on paper doesn't always translate into battlefield success.But I've found picking the brain of comrades that have "been their & done that" is one of the few ways a general can prepare for battle (especially one who is as new to the game as myself).Thanks for your advice.

wittdooley
07-07-2011, 07:55 AM
First and foremost, Cygnar is going to be a shooting army. That isn't to say you can't do melee heavy--you absolutely can-- but they really excel at ranged attacks, as is evidenced by the copious amount of ranged buffs their casters can provide (snipe, deadeye, etc..).

They some really great heavies (the Stormclad is actually one of the better Heavies in the game) but you have to be able to utilize them with the proper Caster, load them up, and hope to wreck stuff on your charge. A fully charged Stormclad can take down anything in the game. Sadly, I've found he works best with one of the Nemo incarnations, who can be difficult to be REALLY competitive with. I always end up losing late in the game with him, but of course, YMMV.

The two "premier" Casters in my meta are Haley and Stryker. Both incarnations are used, but the Epic versions are used a bit more. They're both control/toolbox casters, able to to a lot of things very well, poor at pretty much nothing, and excellent on their feat turns. eCaine is also used quite a bit, and with a good ranged army he can be an absolute nightmare, particularly on his feat turn. I enjoy playing Gun Line Sloane, but again, she can be a bit tougher to win with. It seems with Wrath that Constance Blaize may be a nice infantry caster, which was needed for Cygnar, but I haven't played her yet so I dunno.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-09-2011, 03:05 AM
I was able to make a deal for a bunch of unused space marines & termies for the cygnar army i was going to buy.With that $ freed up,i think i'm going 2 get the combo starter box & tokens.i'm going to learn the rules & play my early games with those armies & develop my cygnar after understanding how some of my enemies play.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-09-2011, 05:16 AM
Could the Ironclad in the battlegroup box pass for Ol'Rowdy ?

wittdooley
07-09-2011, 06:52 AM
I don't see why not. You'll just need the card.

the_puritan
07-09-2011, 07:36 AM
Especially if you model it smashing the ground like the "actual" Ol' Rowdy.
Just make sure you're up-front with your opponent before the match starts and there shouldnt be a problem with anyone who isnt a complete tool.

scadugenga
07-09-2011, 09:34 AM
You could also magnetize an arm with a buckler to add to image.

But yeah, as long as your opponent's cool with it...not really an issue.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-09-2011, 01:48 PM
My plan was to completely convert the Ironclad into Ol'Rowdy (without a doubt).Both models seem pretty similar,they look to be the same class of Jack,but I've never held or seen a PP figure in person (2 dimensional pictures from various angles can sometimes be deceiving).The hammer & right shoulder pad seem to be different & I didn't even notice the buckler (would a Tau drone lid be to big ?).Most of the people I've chatted with say Ol'Rowdy is a no-brainer for Stryker & once you get him in your list,there is no reason or room to also take an Ironclad.I can use the 2 Light Jacks in the box & since I'm not using my $ for this army,that $ will get me the 2 player starter box armies,the rulebook & the 3 faction token sets.So now my army ceiling is 20pts(26 w/Strykers Jack pts. :confused: let me know if I'm wrong.
So if I can make the Ironclad into Ol'Rowdy,My Army so far is Stryker,Ol'Rowdy,Lancer, &Charger w/7pts to play with to bring it up to the 20pt starter box armies.20pt Stryker List to follow.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-09-2011, 02:57 PM
So assuming what I wrote above is correct this is the 20pt Cygnar Army I was going to start for play against the 2 armies in the starter box.
Stryker,Ol'Rowdy,Lancer,Charger,Black 13th, & a Journeyman Warcaster for 20pts(once again let me know if I'm wrong).Let me know what you think,would this be a fair representation of a Cygnar army that PP might have put together in place of one of the 2 20pt starter box armies.I don't want the freedom of building a 20pt Cygnar Army of my choice,to overpower the 2 army builds the other factions will be locked into @ 20pt in the beginning.I eventually plan to take them all to 35pts. & friends who like the game can buy a unit or 2 here & there & mix & match,to make their own unique list or run the 35's up to 50 w/out having to drop a ton of cash.For about $150,I'll have 3 great 20pt armies,3 token sets, & the rulebook. I'm very excited!

mazgier
07-09-2011, 09:53 PM
Ol'Rowdy is a great jack but far from being "no brainer" class. Ironclad still has its uses in this game (BTW, Shield Drone is too big). The question is: do you really need Journeyman in 20pts list? Except for upkeeping Arcane Shield he won't do much. I'd suggest to drop him and take either Squire or Arlan Strangewayes. Squire gives you increased CTRL, more focus to play with and that reroll you may need when casting Earthquake. Arlan on the other side has power booster that can make Lancer run without spending Stryker's focus and Evasive Action that allows a warjack to ignore free strikes. And for the last point you can take a Stormsmith.

the_puritan
07-10-2011, 08:54 AM
Really, you could put the Charger in Journeyman's battlegroup. It doesnt need a ton of focus to be effective and ranged jacks (in general) are good for Jr since he/she's a little on the squishy side...

Anyway, that will give Stryker some breathing room with his focus. Plus, on feat turn with Arcane Sheild, Stryker can be at +8ARM... Not to mention camping!

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-10-2011, 11:58 AM
Puritan,you read my mind,I thought the journeymen could advance w/the charger feeding it his focus.Allowing it to run & buff its Armor in the 1st turn, & using all 3 for shooting in the 2nd turn.It would free up Strykers focus to concentrate on the main battlegroup (Ol'Rowdy,Lancer, & the 13th).I haven't played any games yet,but I've watched a zillion battle reps & I can't tell you how many times I've heard one or both players saying the wish they had one more focus or wish they would have allocated them differently.I figured the extra focus would cushion the early mistakes I'll make in learning how & when to allocate them.
"You could put the charger in the journeymens battle group." I've seen this term before,but I'm having trouble finding it in game terms.I won't have a proper rulebook until the 2 player starter box ships.What does putting the journeymen & charger in a battlegroup mean in game terms?

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-10-2011, 01:04 PM
Mazgeir- I didn't mean Ol'Rowdy was a no-brainer in general terms,I meant in a Stryker army.For 2 more pts,I would be getting an ironclad w/+1Mat & Arm,a free run or charge (allowing Stryker a larger focus pool to draw from),Counter Charge,Imprint Grudge, & Affinity (Stryker)-but I don't know what that means in game terms, a - w/nothing written after it on my print out.In my 20pt Ol'Rowdy eats up the Squires 2pts,however I had planed to use it in my 15pt MM list - Stryker,Ol'Rody,Charger,Lancer,Squire,but it seem I couldn't give Stryker the Squire because of Ol'Rowdy,right ?In any case,I now plan on picking up one w/the rest of the above mentioned units & working him in where I can. Thanks for the heads up.I've heard nothing but good thing about Strangeways,but I was thinking about picking him up in my 2nd wave.
At what point list does a second Warcaster come into play?

mazgier
07-10-2011, 01:55 PM
Ol'Rowdy does not, in any way preclude using Squire. I'd advise NOT thinking about 2 caster's game before one grips strongly on the games mechanics.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-10-2011, 07:02 PM
Ol'Rowdy does not, in any way preclude using Squire. I'd advise NOT thinking about 2 caster's game before one grips strongly on the games mechanics.

Good news about Ol'Rowdy,the squire will definitely be in my 15pt list,I had read somewhere about only one attachment per warcaster.I didn't know what they meant though.I plan on playing quite a few games before I use a second warcaster,I was just curious as to what point level a second is allowed.

the_puritan
07-10-2011, 09:25 PM
I've seen this term before,but I'm having trouble finding it in game terms.I won't have a proper rulebook until the 2 player starter box ships.What does putting the journeymen & charger in a battlegroup mean in game terms?
I don't have my rulebook in front of me to tell you the page numbers, but here's the basic gist of it:
Each model with the Battlegroup Commander ability (all warcasters, warlocks and Journeyman Warcaster) can start the game with faction jacks/beasts in their battlegroup. Only the battlegroup commander may allocate focus to the jacks in their battlegroup and they may not allocate jacks that are not in their battlegroup.

In other words, Stryker (in your list) will be able to allocate focus to Ol' Rowdy and the Lancer, but not the Charger.
The Journeyman Warcaster can allocate focus to the Charger, but not to Ol' Rowdy or the Lancer.

Also, if you decide to use a Jack Marshall (such as Strangewayes), neither Stryker nor the Journeyman Warcaster will be able to allocate focus to the marshalled jack.

Also, some spells and abilities specify members of a battlegroup to be affected. Again, I dont have my stuff in front of me, but you'll know them because they will use the word "battlegroup".
...and, yes, the battlegroup commander is in their own battlegroup.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-11-2011, 07:18 AM
I see,thanks for the info puritan.Your info left me w/one more question,what happens if the journeymen is killed,could the charger receive focus from Stryker then.Or is that the price you pay for battlegrouping?

the_puritan
07-11-2011, 08:49 AM
If the Jouneyman is killed (or any Warcaster, for that matter), the jacks in the battlegroup go inert. That means they're considered stationary and can't do anything.
Another battlegroup commander (like Stryker) can reactivate a jack by going base-to-base and using an action. The jack then becomes part of Strykers battlegroup and he can start allocating it focus.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-11-2011, 09:33 AM
In the beginning,I plan to play alot of games with as much variety as possible,but since I won't be able to start playing until the 2 Player Starter Box ships I have some time.
With the army I'm building (Stryker,Ol'Rowdy,Charger,Lancer,Black 13th, & Journeymen Warcaster @ 20pts.) & your own personal experiences how would you run them?
1)All as one large group w/no battle grouping
2)Journeymen & Charger in 1 & everything else in the other (my way of thinking right now,but is based on no experience)
3)Journeymen & Lancer in 1 & everything else in the other.

mazgier
07-11-2011, 09:40 PM
In the beginning,I plan to play alot of games with as much variety as possible,but since I won't be able to start playing until the 2 Player Starter Box ships I have some time.
With the army I'm building (Stryker,Ol'Rowdy,Charger,Lancer,Black 13th, & Journeymen Warcaster @ 20pts.) & your own personal experiences how would you run them?
1)All as one large group w/no battle grouping
2)Journeymen & Charger in 1 & everything else in the other (my way of thinking right now,but is based on no experience)
3)Journeymen & Lancer in 1 & everything else in the other.

I assume that by "no battle grouping" you mean "all warjacks in Stryker's Battlegroup"? If you decide to take Journeyman I'd advise to assign him the Charger. Journeyman is rather squishy so it's better for him to stick as far from melee as possible. Thus shooting warjack is better option.
Never ever consider using Lancer other than in (proper) warcaster's BG. The whole point of taking Lancer in your army is the fact that this warjack has an arcnode ie. a relay for warcaster's spells.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-13-2011, 11:35 AM
I have some thought & questions from my previous post that I was hoping you all can clear up for me.So lets dive right in,first off does taking a Journeymen in my army mean I have to assign him a jack?Looking @ the option of battlegrouping the Journeymen & the Charger has generated a few more questions.The journeymen will have 3 focus to allocate,one will undoubtedly go to Powerful Attack,w/only 2 left to make the difficult decision whether to fire more shots or cast Arcane Shied on the Charger.Choosing the wrong option could be catastrophic for both the Journeymen & Charger,leaving me with spells arced through the Lancer or not & pistol as my only ranged options.Mazgier Squire suggestion is looking more & more viable as a fundamental building block for my army.I've started considering holding off my Jouneymen purchase for my second wave,a Journeymen & Hunter,or Grenadier,or Sentinel (each being able to fire 2 shots & receive Arcane Shied from the Journeymen)seem to be more effective battlegroups.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-13-2011, 12:26 PM
My thought on putting the Lancer & Journeymen together were based on the battle reports I viewed.It often seems whether the players are using one large battlegroup or 2 smaller ones,they never seem to be to far away from each other.By putting Ol'Rowdy & Charger in Strykers' group (knowing Ol'Rowdy can run for free & spending 2 to cast Arcane Shied or Blur on him)will leave me 4 focus & give me more options for the Charger.If my Journeymen (who's 3 focus would keep the Lancer moving & shielded) was to perish,it would be a short jog over to the Lancer for Stryker to reactivate & it would be likely that the Arc Node would be in range of something then or after its next movement.I'm not saying its a sound strategy (there is a lot of ifs & buts in there)but it was my train of thought when I asked about the Journeymen,Lancer grouping.I doubt I'll ever try it.

mazgier
07-13-2011, 09:33 PM
First: Arcane Shield and Blur are "upkeep" type spells meaning that you pay the full cost to cast them and in following turns you can keep them in play just by spending 1 focus on the controlling model (ie. the one that casted the spell) in Control Phase.
Second: Hunter's ROF is 1 so it can only fire once a turn. Grenadier requires Trencher models in BtB to fire more than once (max is 3 shots). Sentinel's Strafe (Special Attack) gives it d6 shots per turn (it's base ROF is still 1 though).
Third: "Reactivation" of a warjack my look nice on paper but as it requires that the re-activating model forfeits its action in that turn it is really hard to execute.
Fourth: Even if you can't see it now, please take my word that putting Lancer under JWC's control is simply a waste. The usual "tactics" of using JWC is to cast Arcane Shield on something valuable in the first turn and then simply keeping JWC away from any danger, just spending 1 focus a turn to upkeep AS. That's why JWC likes Hunter so much - Hunter's Extended Control Range means that JWC may park in a safe distance from enemy and after upkeeping AS he has just those 2 FOC needed to boost Hunter's to hit and dmg rolls.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-14-2011, 12:27 AM
I didn't know upkeep was only one,I thought the casting cost was what you had to pay each turn.That makes a huge difference.Even though I read it, it didn't register.
"Second: Hunter's ROF is 1 so it can only fire once a turn"-I thought spending a pt. of focus would allow me to make an additional attack or buff the to hit roll or buff the damage roll.
"Fourth: Even if you can't see it now, please take my word that putting Lancer under JWC's control is simply a waste."-I do see it & doubt if I'll ever try it,but by explaining the thought process behind my original question,I found out about-ROF being the limit that the unit can fire in a round & focus doesn't buff that.Spells w/yes in the up column only costs 1 focus to maintain (almost cutting in half the amount of focus I thought I'd be spending from round 2 on).JWC 3 Focus seems much better now & there is no doubt I'll be getting a Squire on saturday.I get what you are saying & agree,I'm just not very good at making it clear.

mazgier
07-14-2011, 02:38 AM
Talking about upkeeps, be aware that you can't have in play more than one instance of any upkeep type spell at the same time (from a single caster that is) and any model/unit can have max 1 friendly upkeep on it at the same time.

the_puritan
07-23-2011, 06:25 AM
" Hunter's ROF is 1 so it can only fire once a turn"-I thought spending a pt. of focus would allow me to make an additional attack or buff the to hit roll or buff the damage roll.
You only get to shoot a ranged weapon once per turn, but you can buy extra attacks with a ranged weapon until you've fired it a number of times equal to its RoF.

So, with the Hunter's RoF 1, you only get that first shot and can't buy any more.
Look at the Charger, it has RoF 2. That means it gets to fire the first shot (for "free") and then can buy a second shot for a focus.

Long Gunners are another good example. They have RoF 2 guns, but can't spend focus to get more shots... but they have an ability that allows them to make an additional attack.

Be on the lookout for spells or abilities that circumvent the RoF rules... those are usually really good because RoF balances out powerful ranged weapons by limiting the amount they can be used.
eHaley's Temporal Acceleration spell and Rinholdt's Reload ability are two things that spring to mind that specifically state that they ignore a weapon's RoF when making the extra attacks that they generate.