BoLS community Grey Knights FAQ

[plawolf]

I have had quite a few quick questions regarding the Grey Knights as I read the codex more and started to try out new things.

Instead of starting new thread every time, I thought it might be more useful to start a general GK FAQ thread, so all GK related questions and answers can be put in one place.

Anyone can ask questions, and I will periodically update the OP to include more questions as people as them, and any answers when it appears that the community has reached a consensus.

This should make it more useful for all users so they do not need to trawl through pages and pages to find the information they are interested in.

So, I guess I will get the ball rolling.

Question

1. Would the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon work if the model equipped with it was embarked in a vehicle? Would the kind of vehicle (ie, whether the said vehicle has any firing points) it is embarked on count in terms of whether it is working or not?

Answer

Yes, the Syphon would work even if embarked in any vehicle.

Curtsey of Duo Sonata

It is not a weapon and doesn't need line of sight so no firing points needed. It only requires that the plasma model is within 12" of it, It would also work while it's in a vehicle, measuring from the hull as this is the case with all similarly wording rules.

Question

2. If a unit of Grey Knights with Halberts won combat and the enemy flees, what initiative does the GK squad use to see if they can catch the enemy?

Answer

Curtsey of Duo Sonata

the wording for Halberds only says that the model strikes at +2 I, not anything else. Additionally Sweeping Advances state that you do not add any modifiers when rolling, only the base I characteristic.

Question

3. For a unit of Grey Knights with Halberts, what initiative would be they use for initiative tests such as from JoTWW or Warp Rift etc.

Answer

Base initiative would be used.

[Question

4. What would happen if two Grey Knights squads both equipped with Psychotrocke Grenades assaulted the same enemy unit?

Answer

Both results would apply, the wording of the rules actually means none of the results can stack if the same number is rolled. If that happened, it would appear that you would just get that one affect.

Added: Curtsey of Duo again.

In the case where two 6s are rolled and the unit targeted would need to perform two initiative tests, and the results would apply if a single test was failed.

Question

5. Justicar Thawn does not have the Brotherhood of psykers special rule. Does this mean he needs to activate his force weapon separately from the rest of the squad like an attached independent character would?

Question

6. In a kill points game, how many kill points would Thawn and his terminator squad yield if they were dead by the game end, but Thawn had not been killed before, and hence had not resurrected before?

Answer

In this case, Thawn and his squad would only give up one kill point as he has not become a separate unit at that point.

[plawolf]

Some very good responses, lets try and keep it you. :)

Areas on contention:
Note: Blue writing = newly added

Q1. General consensus seems to be that the plasma syphon can work when embarked in vehicles. However, there seems to be some disagreement on whether the vehicle needs fire points to allow its use.

It would be interesting if people can set out their reasoning as well for their decisions.

Duo Sonata made some good points in post #8, and the OP has been updated to reflect this.

Q2. Again, we have people falling on both sides, some saying I4, others I6.

Having heard the arguments, I am personally leaning towards base I, but would like to hear from more people before deciding.

Duo Sonata made some good points in post #8, and the OP has been updated to reflect this.


Q5. Some say he has to roll separately, other say he gets his force weapon activated as normal if he is still with his original squad.

I personally feel that it makes more sense that he is just treated the same as any other justicar for his squad. But how do you get around the no BoP special rule?

Q6. I am going to say that I think Thawn and his squad would only give one kill point in this case, as they he has not become a separate unit at that time, as KingStuart explained.

I think Fuzz is wrong on this one since his rules specifically states he only gives 1 kill point no matter how many times he died in the game, and only if he is dead at the end of the game.

[KingStuart]

1. I would say yes it would. EDIT: it would work in the same way as a Bog Meks KFF or the Sanguinary Priests aura.

2. I4 in much the same way as a guy with a power fist would still use I4.

3. Same as above for the same reasons.

4. RAW you get two rolls on the chart, which sounds painful but would be difficult to actually make happen.

5. I would gave to say yes, but it feels like an oversight. EDIT: I agree That it seems he should operate like a normal justicar but without BoPsy it seems he should work in exactly the same way as Mordrak and his Ghost knights (for me this is that the ghost knights can cast a power and Mordrak can cast 2 himself, this is how I would have Thawn work though I could very well be wrong)

6. Would only be 1 kill point as he's not a separate unit yet.

That would be my personal answers

[fuzzbuket]

Question

1. Would the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon work if the model equipped with it was embarked in a vehicle? Would the kind of vehicle (ie, whether the said vehicle has any firing points) it is embarked on count in terms of whether it is working or not?
yes, if it has firing points counts as a gun


Question

2. If a unit of Grey Knights with Halberts won combat and the enemy flees, what initiative does the GK squad use to see if they can catch the enemy?

I6 as they have halbards as long as they pass a psy test : logic= they are weilding halbards in combat so they can weild them when cutting down the enemy
Question

3. For a unit of Grey Knights with Halberts, what initiative would be they use for initiative tests such as from JoTWW or Warp Rift etc.
no as it is equipment not a stat line change

Question

4. What would happen if two Grey Knights squads both equipped with Psychotrocke Grenades assaulted the same enemy unit?
they would both work but the effects would not stack


Question

5. Justicar Thawn does not have the Brotherhood of psykers special rule. Does this mean he needs to activate his force weapon separately from the rest of the squad like an attached independent character would?
when he is in the squad: no when he is solo yes


Question

6. In a kill points game, how many kill points would Thawn and his terminator squad yield if they were dead by the game end, but Thawn had not been killed before, and hence had not resurrected before?


each time you kill him you get another kill point



some of my answers may be wrong id check the GW faq, sadly the GW one feels rushed and some of the desicions poorly made: FALCHIONS


-fuzz

[DrLove42]

Agree with KingStu, disagree with Fuzz. Even with Halberds you use base Initiative.

Other wise if Howling banshees forced a unit to flee in combat they'd be at Init 10.
Or a unit wielding power claws (like Nob bikers) would be Init 1.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

With question 1., the rule for the syphon states: "while within 12" of a model with an Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon". It all boils down to whether or not you consider the vehicle "a model with an Ulumeathi etc" when a model holding one is on board.

I'd say no, since I don't think, say, Pedro Kantor or a Sanguinary Priest in a Land Raider can give their buff to any units within 6" of the Land Raider, but I'm not certain on the ruling.

If it can be used in a vehicle, it wouldn't require a firepoint to be used, since it's not fired as a shooting weapon.

---

The FAQ ruling on Thrawn:
"Q: If Justicar Thawn is dead at the end of a game involving kill points, does he only give away one kill point regardless of how many times he was killed? (p43)
A: Yes. It is also worth noting that if he does come back, he is treated as a seperate unit from that point on and as such both he and his unit will eachbe worth a kill point."

[plawolf]

Just to add, please feel free to ask any questions of your own you might have regarding any of the rules in the GK book.

[Duo Sonata]

1. It is not a weapon and doesn't need line of sight so no firing points needed. It only requires that the plasma model is within 12" of it, It would also work while it's in a vehicle, measuring from the hull as this is the case with all similarly wording rules.

2. I find the thought of this as silly as the thoughts going around that powerfist bonus can be used for characteristic tests which may or may not be the case... luckily the wording for Halberds only says that the model strikes at +2 I, not anything else. Additionally Sweeping Advances state that you do not add any modifiers when rolling, only the base I characteristic.

3. Again the model is only striking at +2 I not gaining +2 I, there is no actual profile stat modification to apply for either case

4. Both would apply, stacking would be irrelevant except in the case of both rolling 6's. It's my opinion that each model would be forced to take 2 Initiative tests but even if failing both tests you would still only ever do your attacks once.

5. Until Thawn dies, the squad may do 2 powers a turn, and for say if Thawn dies after having attempted 1 power but not another then the squad would lose out of casting further powers since they revert back to using only 1 a turn

6. Thawn after he dies and gets back up, he will only ever concede a single killpoint, the FAQ supports this. Additionally if Thawn never gets back up after dieing in his origional squad then he does not confer any extra killpoints as he has yet become a separate unit according to the wordings in his rules

[plawolf]

1. It is not a weapon and doesn't need line of sight so no firing points needed. It only requires that the plasma model is within 12" of it, It would also work while it's in a vehicle, measuring from the hull as this is the case with all similarly wording rules.

2. I find the thought of this as silly as the thoughts going around that powerfist bonus can be used for characteristic tests which may or may not be the case... luckily the wording for Halberds only says that the model strikes at +2 I, not anything else. Additionally Sweeping Advances state that you do not add any modifiers when rolling, only the base I characteristic.

3. Again the model is only striking at +2 I not gaining +2 I, there is no actual profile stat modification to apply for either case

4. Both would apply, stacking would be irrelevant except in the case of both rolling 6's. It's my opinion that each model would be forced to take 2 Initiative tests but even if failing both tests you would still only ever do your attacks once.

5. Until Thawn dies, the squad may do 2 powers a turn, and for say if Thawn dies after having attempted 1 power but not another then the squad would lose out of casting further powers since they revert back to using only 1 a turn

6. Thawn after he dies and gets back up, he will only ever concede a single killpoint, the FAQ supports this. Additionally if Thawn never gets back up after dieing in his origional squad then he does not confer any extra killpoints as he has yet become a separate unit according to the wordings in his rules

Some very good answers there mate, much appreciated!

I have a few questions though. On Q4, what is the basis you are using for your argument?

I know it only makes sense to treat Thawn exactly as if he was just a normal justicar but with additional powers/rules, but the lack of brotherhood of psykers rules makes it hard to argue that this should be how he is treated if someone was applying RAW.

[Duo Sonata]

Some very good answers there mate, much appreciated!

I have a few questions though. On Q4, what is the basis you are using for your argument?

I know it only makes sense to treat Thawn exactly as if he was just a normal justicar but with additional powers/rules, but the lack of brotherhood of psykers rules makes it hard to argue that this should be how he is treated if someone was applying RAW.

My reasoning for Q4 is that two separate sources are telling you to take an Initiative test that if failed you are forced into attacking your comrades rather than the enemy. This reasoning validates the stacking of two psychostoke rolls of 6. The reasoning for them not stacking beyond that is the afflicted model isn't capable attacking any more than what he would normally be able to do. So in essence 2 d6 rolls of 6 would just give you another chance at them failing that I test.

As for the others being irrelevant, making something I2 twice is somewhat redundant.

As for Thawn's lack of the brotherhood of Pskers rule, This is a bit of a grey area I was hoping to have explained in the latest FAQ update but wasn't. However I see it as being that while Thawn is in the squad they are effectively capable of casting 2 powers for the whole unit. To view Thawn as a separate character while in the squad could bring about other problems such as Thawn having 2 powers and the squad have their own which seems wrong to me.

There's several different ways this rule could be interpreted, I just find the way I pointed out simplest and feel to be RAI in something that cannot be seen clearly when looking for RAW

[Bean]

Agree with Duo Sonata on all points.

With regards to five, the relevant rule is this:

"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately)."

So, the question is:
does a unit have BoP if and only if each of its members has BoP?
or does a unit have BoP if any of its members has BoP?

If you and I are going camping together and one of us has a stove, we (as a group) have a stove. It seems that a unit has a rule as long as any of its members has the rule, unless some other rule specifies otherwise. It doesn't matter whether Thrawn has BoP--his unit does, and he is not excluded by the Independent Character clause.

[celestialatc]

Agree with Duo Sonata on all points.

With regards to five, the relevant rule is this:

"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately)."

So, the question is:
does a unit have BoP if and only if each of its members has BoP?
or does a unit have BoP if any of its members has BoP?

If you and I are going camping together and one of us has a stove, we (as a group) have a stove. It seems that a unit has a rule as long as any of its members has the rule, unless some other rule specifies otherwise. It doesn't matter whether Thrawn has BoP--his unit does, and he is not excluded by the Independent Character clause.

This brings a question to my mind, that might be answered in the Grey Knight book but I don't have it with me. When you take Grand Master Mordrak and his ghost knights he acts as a unit leader for them. Does that mean the unit only gets to activate one psyhic power or since he does not have the BoP rule can he cast hammerhands and the unit can then cast force weapons? I know Mordrak is only a level 1 psyker so this unit might become a little better if he does not count since he does not have the BoP rule.

[Bean]

This brings a question to my mind, that might be answered in the Grey Knight book but I don't have it with me. When you take Grand Master Mordrak and his ghost knights he acts as a unit leader for them. Does that mean the unit only gets to activate one psyhic power or since he does not have the BoP rule can he cast hammerhands and the unit can then cast force weapons? I know Mordrak is only a level 1 psyker so this unit might become a little better if he does not count since he does not have the BoP rule.

Yes, I think that's exactly how it works, and I would say the same goes for Thrawn. The unit uses its one psychic power as per the BoP rule to activate the Force Weapon, Mordrak gets his power from his Mastery level, and that can be Hammerhand. Mordrak's force weapon is activated because the unit's activation power affects the whole unit, including Mordrak (as he is not an IC).

So, actually, I guess I don't agree with Duo on all points: I think Thrawn gets two powers and the BoP portion of the unit gets one.

[celestialatc]

Yes, I think that's exactly how it works, and I would say the same goes for Thrawn. The unit uses its one psychic power as per the BoP rule to activate the Force Weapon, Mordrak gets his power from his Mastery level, and that can be Hammerhand. Mordrak's force weapon is activated because the unit's activation power affects the whole unit, including Mordrak (as he is not an IC).

So, actually, I guess I don't agree with Duo on all points: I think Thrawn gets two powers and the BoP portion of the unit gets one.

If this is true, then why give Mordrak only one Psyhic power per turn but give Thawn two? If I remember correctly Mordrak has more powers then Thawn.

What I think is more likely is either:

A: Mordrak and Thawn can cast one power (Hammerhands) and are then unaffected by the unit's BoP rule and the squad can cast Force Weapons and so can Thawn (for have level 2) and Mordrak can't have force weapon attacks (but maybe the BoP does affect them and I am nerfing them in my mind).

B: Mordrak and Thawn are just like a justicar and their psyhic power rolls are the only ones the unit can have.

I want to lean towards A for one reason, double hammerhands without attaching multiple characters to a unit. It would make Mordrak and Thawn so much more attractive since I like Paladins more then Terminators. And Ghost knights are kind of crappy unless you like Mordrak.

[Bean]

If this is true, then why give Mordrak only one Psyhic power per turn but give Thawn two? If I remember correctly Mordrak has more powers then Thawn.

What I think is more likely is either:

A: Mordrak and Thawn can cast one power (Hammerhands) and are then unaffected by the unit's BoP rule and the squad can cast Force Weapons and so can Thawn (for have level 2) and Mordrak can't have force weapon attacks (but maybe the BoP does affect them and I am nerfing them in my mind).

B: Mordrak and Thawn are just like a justicar and their psyhic power rolls are the only ones the unit can have.

I want to lean towards A for one reason, double hammerhands without attaching multiple characters to a unit. It would make Mordrak and Thawn so much more attractive since I like Paladins more then Terminators. And Ghost knights are kind of crappy unless you like Mordrak.

Mordrak and Thrawn are not just like Justicars. They have Mastery--justicars do not. That said, Mordrak and Thrawn are exactly like each other--no matter how you cut it, Thrawn can use more powers than Mordrak. Whether or not that is a good design feature, it is definitely the way it works.

The only question is whether they get powers from Mastery in addition to the unit's power from BoP. I think they do--Mastery gives you some number of powers and BoP gives you one. There's no overlap written into the rules, so you should get both.

Noting that Mordrak gets fewer powers than Thrawn doesn't really constitute an objection to this position--Thrawn is just a more powerful, less knowledgeable psycher, end of story.

[celestialatc]

Mordrak and Thrawn are not just like Justicars. They have Mastery--justicars do not. That said, Mordrak and Thrawn are exactly like each other--no matter how you cut it, Thrawn can use more powers than Mordrak. Whether or not that is a good design feature, it is definitely the way it works.

The only question is whether they get powers from Mastery in addition to the unit's power from BoP. I think they do--Mastery gives you some number of powers and BoP gives you one. There's no overlap written into the rules, so you should get both.

Noting that Mordrak gets fewer powers than Thrawn doesn't really constitute an objection to this position--Thrawn is just a more powerful, less knowledgeable psycher, end of story.


Then I might be using Thawn and Mordrak more because it just makes then so much better in my mind. Being able to use their Psychic master with BoP would be awesome and would make up for Ghost Knights not being able to to take any Psycannons.

[Duo Sonata]

Just to note there is a suptle difference between Mordrak and Thawn. Thawn IS a justicar so he would be affected by the BoP rule for the purposes of perils and what not unlike Mordrak who is not a justicar but a Brother-Captain so if the Ghost Knights peril he isn't forced to take the wound.

The way I said for Thawn working was just one of many ways one could view it since rules for units of psykers are far from perfect for Grey Knights. However I do find the idea that Thawn and Mordrek's powers being used in addition to the Ghost Knight/Terminator Squad's powers to be rather intriguing, boosts the viability of such choices and is well within RAW.

[Bean]

Just to note there is a suptle difference between Mordrak and Thawn. Thawn IS a justicar so he would be affected by the BoP rule for the purposes of perils and what not unlike Mordrak who is not a justicar but a Brother-Captain so if the Ghost Knights peril he isn't forced to take the wound.

The way I said for Thawn working was just one of many ways one could view it since rules for units of psykers are far from perfect for Grey Knights. However I do find the idea that Thawn and Mordrek's powers being used in addition to the Ghost Knight/Terminator Squad's powers to be rather intriguing, boosts the viability of such choices and is well within RAW.

Good points.

Though it's worth noting that, by RAW, Thrawn isn't a Justicar. He's a Justicar Thrawn, which is distinct. There is no Justicar in a unit containing Justicar Thrawn. Unless this was addressed by the FAQ, which it might have been. I really don't remember.

The real question is what happens when a unit that never had a Justicar or Knight of the Flame suffers a perils. The rules tell you what to do when there is a Justicar or Knight of the Flame and what to do if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead, but units like Ghost Knights and Paladins meet neither criteria: what do they do? It seems that they should just randomize as if they'd had a Justicar or Knight of the Flame and it died, but the rules don't actually say that.

[Gir]

Good points.

Though it's worth noting that, by RAW, Thrawn isn't a Justicar. He's a Justicar Thrawn, which is distinct. There is no Justicar in a unit containing Justicar Thrawn. Unless this was addressed by the FAQ, which it might have been. I really don't remember.


Just remember that there's precedent in this codex for Fluff = rules.

[Duo Sonata]

Just remember that there's precedent in this codex for Fluff = rules.

Exactly...

Technically the Justicar for a terminator squad is upgraded to a Justicar Thawn so alittle RAI would be needed in this case since clearly Thawn is a Justicar in his fluff and this codex uses fluff as a basis for some of its rules...also there is no 'Justicar' rule in either units profile so one would have to go with the model's profile name which both have the word justicar, otherwise even the Terminator Justicar wouldn't count as a units Justicar since it's not a Justicar it's a Terminator Justicar.

As for the case of units with no justicar/knight of flame, it's best just not to think too much on wordings like that, Just try to use common sense and overlook it, Book wasn't exactly written as well or clear as it should have so trying to go with scrictly RAW is something of a dead end.

[Bean]

Exactly...

Technically the Justicar for a terminator squad is upgraded to a Justicar Thawn so alittle RAI would be needed in this case since clearly Thawn is a Justicar in his fluff and this codex uses fluff as a basis for some of its rules...also there is no 'Justicar' rule in either units profile so one would have to go with the model's profile name which both have the word justicar, otherwise even the Terminator Justicar wouldn't count as a units Justicar since it's not a Justicar it's a Terminator Justicar.

As for the case of units with no justicar/knight of flame, it's best just not to think too much on wordings like that, Just try to use common sense and overlook it, Book wasn't exactly written as well or clear as it should have so trying to go with scrictly RAW is something of a dead end.

Fair.