Math-Hammer

[Prometheus]

Websters defines Math-Hammer as... well nothing cause Websters doesn't much care for 40k apparently. Anyway (in my opinon) Math-Hammer is when a gamer figures out the mathematical probability/statistis behind a given outcome based on the models/actions invovled.

The question is, do you think Math-Hamer is useful? relivent to gaming? a valuable source of vitamin c? more helpful to power gamers?

Persoanly I like using it occasionally but often find that besides obvious things such as "Which is more deadly a Genestealer or a Guardsmen?" I find it kinda misleading and not that fun, more of a tool for power gamers. I also can point out forever when we have all seen things that statistically should never happen such as Tau beating Khorne in combat, etc....

[Exitus Acta Probat]

actually fits a good question under our 'spamming' thread.
It really is coming down to style of play. If you don't go for efficiency, then it is a waste...otherwise it's fully viable.
Whatever you do, keep in mind your style of play. If you would like to be more competitive, then yes...it'd be good to research what goes into the why of it, and who applies what to define efficient units.

If not, don't ruin your game getting too wrapped in the numbers. Go for the obvious and make it work as best you can. You won't win alot of tourneys, but you'll have a blast doin it!

[Arkaedin]

I use it, but not actively. I don't sit there thinking "what's my percentage to wound x unit with y unit". I just kind of know what to do intuitively. I think that just comes with playing a lot of games. Like you said, obviously a genestealer will beat the crap out of a guardsman.

When it comes down to it, you're right in saying mathhammer is misleading. There are a lot of other factors like dice imperfection, how you roll your dice, how many dice you're rolling, etc. Probability and statistics, while related, are still two different things. However math-hamer can be used positively when you're building a list and comparing two unit against one another. Build a few situations for it and just see what should statistically occur and you can, generally, get a feel about which should perform better in the role you have for it. I'm not saying it will perform well, but I use it this way and it has helped me create better, stronger lists.

[The AKH]

I only really use it when "what-if?" type situations pop up in discussion with my friends and we don't have the time (or the desire) to actually break out the minis and test them. I fully agree with Arkaedin when he says it comes in handy while list-building. When I'm actually playing, I focus more on the tactical problems presented by the game than the math-hammer.

[countenescu]

I find mathhammer to be a very useful tool for post-game analysis. It's very interesting to think about how certain decisions made "in the heat of battle" actually had a decent chance of success. I strive to play every game better than the next. For me, this is part of what interests me in tactical war games. So I like to analyze my post game every time I have a question to see if the moves I made given a certain scenario were the better ones to make given probable outcomes. Do I sit there in game and analyze the odds of success. . . sometimes. . . if they're easy to calculate and I don't slow the game down.

[DoctorEvil]

Come on, what really is "Mathhammer"? We use a frickin' D6 to determine the outcomes of EVERYTHING in this game, it's pretty simple math. It's not like we're calculating differential equations here. Yet, for some reason everyone gets bent out of shape when the term "Mathhammer" is thrown around.

It's very simple....you have a Weapon Skill which determines how well you hit in range combat, you have a to hit chart for assault based on opposing Weapon Slkills, you have a Wound chart which determine whether you wound based on opponent's toughness and the strength of the weapon. Then the opponent gets a save. And all these rolls are based on a D6.

So, I would be pretty stupid if I did not do some quick math and determine some probablties based on my targets stats.

During an Apocalypse game where my opponent fielded a Bio-Titan, I did some quick calculations.....With the number of wounds I had to inflict to kill it, I figured I need at least 180 Lascannon shots equivalents (rough math) to kill it, IF I rolled on average (Taking into account hits, wounds and saves). So, I did not devote any resources to killing the Bio-Titan, because I didn't have that kind of fire power. . It devastated my forces, but I still won the game. Some quick mathhammer won the game for me.

[Jackmojo]

Certain comparisons will only become clear if you "do the math". Sternguard bullet choices are a good example, as are sending dreadnaughts to fight genestealers and other seemingly incongruous choices, but once you run the numebrs you see how much the odds favour a certain choice.

Jack

[Xas]

I think math has two possible uses in 40k:

a) on the battlefield a skilled mind can calculate how much chance of sucess a certain action has. basically you can to some degree substitute experience with brainpower.

b) while list building you can play trough many different scenarios very quickly (compared to a 2h game of 40k) to determine if a unit could do it's job.


knowing the chance will not change the fact that 40k is a game of dice rolling but it will seriously affect your decissions and expectations. especially in situations where you have not yet been often.

knowingly sending your squad in for a 30% chance of sucess and 80% chance of annihilation means you will have a plan b and be prepared for if the squad fails and dies. if you think you have "pretty good chances to do the job because they are marines" and then happen to "by force of unlucky dice rolling" (your 5 vanguards died to 30+ armor saves even though the have" invinvible" 3+ saves...) loose your squad all your strategy is trown outa the window.



it's pretty simple math.

...

During an Apocalypse game where my opponent fielded a Bio-Titan, I did some quick calculations.....With the number of wounds I had to inflict to kill it, I figured I need at least 180 Lascannon shots equivalents (rough math) to kill it, IF I rolled on average (Taking into account hits, wounds and saves). So, I did not devote any resources to killing the Bio-Titan, because I didn't have that kind of fire power. . It devastated my forces, but I still won the game. Some quick mathhammer won the game for me.

it's pretty simple and yet you failed at it... unles you are playing orks which have a special rule to reroll sucessfull hits. to need 180 shots he'd have to have his 2+ be an invul (god would I love that) or you'd have to slowly kill him a few wounds a turn so regenration kicks in (which generally is a stupid thing on creatures with wounds since if you take 5 turns out of 6 to kill it, it still does 5/6 of the possible maximum damage while your firepower could have stopped tons of fexes from turn 1).

biotitan t9 w10 6++.
lascannon s9.

6++ save means you need 12 wounds to kill it.
s9 vs t9 means you need 24 hits to cause that many wounds.
bs3 (guard) means you need 48 shots to hit that many times.
bs4 (marine) means you need 36 shots to hit that many times.
bs3, reroll (guard /w order) needs 32shots.

[vman]

Mathhammer is great for working out what your intended squad will do on average in turn allowing you to make a better informed decision as to wether the choice of troop is right for the job.

It really is that simple.

Going overboard with it isnt recomended, but anyone who knows HOW to do it yet fails not too, is in my opinion wasting a valuable resource.

For some the option may not be as strong however, for us Eldar players math hammer is a make or break determining tool on wether or not to take scorpions over banshees or harlequins for example.

Embrace the hammer

[Denzark]

I do this sometimes.

Shooting Melta at Tank? No need, thats why you bought it.

Trying to decide whether or not to use krak against a landspeeder moving 12" (one hit on a 6, 4 to glance, 5 to pen) or base attacks (4 hits on a 6, but 6 to glance) with CSM - do the mathhammer

[jeffersonian000]

I use it to keep a general idea on how useful certain units are in my army, and to generate a general outcome of certain pair-ups in a given situation. Such as when I was working on a dual Redeemer list, I ran the numbers to see how "killy" the set-up was that chose, then ran those numbers against a few different Opfor armies at the same point total, just to see if in was worth the effort, and finally play tested in to see how it actually ran in real games. In the end, math-hammer gave me the impression that the set up was a bit mediocre, while the real games should me the set-up was situational at best. That's math-hammer at work!

SJ

[Jakal13]

I never seem to use math hammer. A lot of my friends are advocates of it and are constantly comparing what they roll to the percaentages per dice rolled etc, etc,...
I find that the dice gods and the chaos gods have 1 thing in common, they are both extremely fickle!! If the dice know that you are thinking of things in a math hammer way, then the little cube gods think 'screw you buddy, that's 4 out of 5 failed power armour saves!!'

[BrotherAlpharius]

Persoanly I like using it occasionally but often find that besides obvious things such as "Which is more deadly a Genestealer or a Guardsmen?" I find it kinda misleading and not that fun, more of a tool for power gamers. I also can point out forever when we have all seen things that statistically should never happen such as Tau beating Khorne in combat, etc....

But if you think Mathhammer tells you that Tau can never beat Khorne then your mathhammer is fundamentally flawed! If you charge your Berserkers into a squad of Fire Warriors and they get slaughtered this doesn't prove that Mathhammer is wrong. Mathhammer acknowledges this possibility but vindicates your tactical decision. If you ignore mathhammer and go totally on degree of belief based on experience you would conclude that to charge Berserkers into Fire Warriors was the wrong thing to do and not do it again. If you look at the maths you see that actually you were very unlucky to lose and in future you should still be confident that your berserkers can beat the tau as they will do so a substantial majority of times.

Everybody uses mathhammer. Looking at space marine and concluding that a plasma gun would be more effective against him than a lasgun, is mathhammer. It doesn't have to be written out formally. The whole game is intrinisically based on probability.

That said, I selected the second answer in the poll because what you cannot do without extremely complex mathematics is determine the impact of movement or the psychology of your opponent. Sometimes it is good to do something that is unlikely to succeed precisely because it is apparently daft - it catches your opponent off guard.

At a recent tourney I charged bloodletters with my fire warriors - as expected the fire warriors got wiped out but the bloodletters' pile in move pulled them away from more valuable units, allowing them time to redeploy and shoot the **** out of the bloodletters. You can't model that situation with normal mathhammer.

As a bonus the daemon player's reaction when I declared my charge was hilarious!:D

[Culven]

I use Math-Hammer to determine the statistical effectiveness of my units against other common unit types. This is more so that I can figure out what a particular unit build would be best suited to killing, helping me with target priority and unit role during the game. But then I start rolling dice, and the statistics mean jack. :rolleyes:

[Dragonmann]

Mathhammer is at best a guide, and it does not work for one game, but the average of many games.

That being said, I wrote a spreadsheet that allows me to quickly write up a squad and see roughly what they should be able to do. I cannot use it to say that unit A will kill Unit B in one turn, but I can use it to say that unit A has a much better chance to Kill unit B than Unit C does.

Everybody uses Mathhammer to a certain extent, every time you stop and think I need to roll 7s to get a glancing hit, or 8s to wound, you are looking at the 0 probability stuff.

[sorri]

It's definitely true that everyone does it, most people without really thinking about what they're doing.

Right now, the most I do is with dice rolls -- when I have 10 bolter Sisters rapid firing and end up with 15 (or 5) hits, I'll think that I did really well (or poorly) rolling compared to statistical probabilities. But I think I need to start doing it moe "on purpose" with things like target priority and even list composition. But I agree, it's useful to do, but it is not the end of the story.

[RocketRollRebel]

I think its a neat and useful tool for helping you plan an army and predict outcomes of certain situations. But of course there is always those times when the dice gods take a gigantic dump on you and your bezerkers get rocked by fire warriors in close combat or your terminators get gunned down by Shoota Boyz.

Its a helpful tool that shouldn't be ignored or disregarded but at the same time it shouldn't be all that you are thinking of and you start to lose sight of the game as a whole.

[DarkLink]

I do this sometimes.

Shooting Melta at Tank? No need, thats why you bought it.

Trying to decide whether or not to use krak against a landspeeder moving 12" (one hit on a 6, 4 to glance, 5 to pen) or base attacks (4 hits on a 6, but 6 to glance) with CSM - do the mathhammer

Most players probably use mathhammer subconsiously without realizing it. Mathhammer is, in essence, using math to calculate probabilities. So if you ever think I only hit on 6's or something similar, you are using mathhammer to a certain degree, even if you don't sit down and calculate everything. I've found mathhammer very useful sometimes in things such as allocating my attacks during close combat (should I put as many attacks as I can on the IC, or on the squad?).

[Benandorf]

I think mathhammer is great while you're making a list, and the basics of it should be remembered when you're playing (don't charge those boyz with ratlings, you can't penetrate a tank with a lasgun, etc.). And by "great", I, of course, mean required to know if you expect to make a tournement-winning list.

[Sangre]

The dice gods care not for mathhammer at the best of times.

[Farmer]

Personally i don't mind if somone uses math-hammer against me.

There's a differance between someone who knows his rolls to hit and wound,and knows his in a good chance.

Theres also a differance between being a **** with the calculater and holding the game up.:rolleyes:

[BlacknightIII]

Used to use math hammer but the dice gods punished me for my blasphemy, i havnt used math hammer since.