2000pts DE "Black Tar" list (C&C is appreciated)

[Toxik]

So I guess this is my first real post other than one saying hello. :o

Right, so this is the first somewhat competitive list I've written in the past 2 years, I mostly play themed list just for the fun of it. But I decided to do this mainly to see if I can still write a list off the top of my head that has some bite to it. So any input is greatly appreciated.

HQ: 225
Sliscus
Sathonyx

Elites: 425
Incubi (x5) - Klaivex with onslaught
Venom (Bare bones)

The venom mounted incubi will be the unit I sent after lightning claw terminators and such. Other than that they will act as a clean up crew for the hellions after hit and runs that don't go so well.

Trueborn (x10) - Dark lance x2, shardcarbine x7, Dracon with agoniser

With the trueborn I wanted to make the unit capable of dishing out anti-tank and anti-infantry while maintaining a unit that can also be thrown into combat with the duke as a last ditch. But their main goal will be objective holding.

Troops: 854
Wyches (x10) - Shardnet & impaler, hydra gauntlets, Hekatrix with agoniser
Raider - Night shields, flicker field

Wyches (x10) - Shardnet & impaler, hydra gauntlets, Hekatrix with agoniser
Raider - Night shields, flicker field

I can't decided if I want to double up on the Gauntlets or the shardnets yet, so I thought I would try both out and see how I like them. I'm also thinking I could probably drop the Night Shields from the Raiders, but I haven't played enough games to to make a decision on them just yet.

Hellions (x9) - Helliarch with agoniser

Hellions (X10) - Helliarch with agoniser

The wches and hellions should be pretty self explanatory in their roles.

Fast Attack: 262
Reavers (x3) - blaster, cluster caltrops, Arena Champ with agoniser

Reavers (x3) - blaster, cluster caltrops, Arena Champ with agoniser

These are here to harass units and contest objectives. The blasters gives me easy to redeploy anti-tank and the agoniser champ gives me some punch to send them after small units without worrying about getting tied up.

Heavy: 200
Cronos - Spirit Vortex

Cronos - Spirit Vortex

I'm really undecided about the cronos at this point. Right now his main goal will be to buff the hellions before the hit combat. After that they will dish out tokens to whoever might need them. I'm also judging it's usefulness based on the fact that nothing says they can't give a token to a unit that's already in combat.

My overall thought with this list was a fast moving hit and run list that will build up pain tokens faster than hellion going after his fix. I'm sure there are aspects of the list that need tweaking. But I'll have to find a gaming grope in my area (I just moved to Indiana from Los Angeles not that long ago) before I can truly fix the list

[thecactusman17]

A few things

If you are going to drop stuff off the raider, make it the Flickerfields. At AV10, a lot of short range weapons can wreck you easily, melta being the most popular but also plasma rifles/pistols and even standard issue bolters. Nightshields protect you from these threats, allowing you to charge those raiders up as close as you feel comfortable (and your opponent feels uncomfortable). A fast moving raider has a 4+ cover save already vs. most of the things that will pose a real threat to it.

Wyches typically benefit from a clear intent. If you want to assault and plow through the enemy, get Haywire and hydra gauntlets. If you want to bog down a super unit in CC for the rest of the game, grab shardnets

Reavers: The Agonizer here is really bad. This just can't be overstated: if you want to get in close with Reavers, use their bladevanes. They will fold like a cheap suit in CC. Anything the Agonizer will kill, the blaster and poisoned shots will kill faster and with less chance of retaliation. Also, heat lance on these guys over blaster. S6 is offset by the fact that 2d6 penetration is a lot more reliable, and AP1 means that you are much more likely to get an immobilized/wrecked/explodes result.

Hellions: These guys are great, but the problem is that they are only really good when used with the Baron. I'd suggest running juts one big squad with the Baron. You will be able to really pour on the firepower, and the unit will be nearly unbreakable in cover thanks to the combined stealth and defensive grenades. Remember, Hellions don't have grenades standard, so you are going to be doing either a lot of shooting or a lot of sitting waiting for an exposed enemy unit if you don't have him.

No advice on the chronos, haven't run them and my friend hasn't figured out how to use them well enough to see much success.

[Toxik]

First off, thanks for the advice.

The raiders I'm going to leave as is for the moment. I feel like right now they aren't to pricy for what I want them to do and that having both of the upgrades is a worthwhile investment to keep the wyches safe until they pop out.

I do plan on using the wyches as a crushing unit rather than a bog.

I had a feeling giving the Reavers the agoniser was going to end up being pointless. But on that same note, is the arena champ worth keeping for that extra LD? I would guess it would be wise to keep him just based on the fact that at such small numbers even one wound and I'm forced to take a moral test with them.

The hellions I want to keep as 2 units at the moment. I don't mind having one unit that I need to be a bit more careful with. The main reason is because I have some tactics that I want to try with two units before I fall back on one big unit of death.

If I end up not liking the cronos I plan on dropping them for a pair of Ravagers or Talos.

Right now I think the main changes that will be implemented right away, will be dropping the agonisers from the Reavers and swaping their blasters for heat lances. With the wyches I'll swap the shardnets for more gauntlets and give both squads haywire grenades.

[thecactusman17]

I just noticed your Trueborn for the first time. Those guys will do lots of damage, but only in close to mid range. It's the 18" range on their guns. Even so, consider putting them in a Raider with Splinter Racks and a flickerfield (maybe a nightshield as well, but I understand that there are points limitations). Reduce the squad size to 9, place the Duke with them, now you have a mean shooting unit that can get up in an opponent's face, take some return fire, and put lots of poisoned death with rerolls to hit on your opponent/ Remember, rerolls to hit is almost ALWAYS better than an extra shot. So even minus a shooter you will actually connect with more shots.

[Toxik]

I've thought about doing that, and there is still a possibility that I might. But there main goal is really to pop a tank fist turn with the dark lances (wishful thinking, but still the plan) than steady move up the field with a cronos, giving them pie plate support and feeding them pain tokens as needed, to claim/contest an objective. While the other units in the army take the fight to the enemy.

[thecactusman17]

Pull the Dark Lances, replace with blasters. That way you can quickly kill marines too. Saves you a couple of points towards that Raider.

[Toxik]

Ok, so this is the revised list after making a few tweaks here and there.

HQ: 255
Sliscus
Sathonyx

Elites: 468
Incubi (5) - Klaivex with onslaught
Venom - bare bones

Trueborn (9) - Blaster x2, shard carbine x6, dracon with agoniser
Raider - Night shield, flicker field

Troops: 854

Wyches (10) - Hydra gauntlets x2, haywire grenades, hekatrix with agoniser
Raider - Night shield, flicker field

Wyches (10) - Hydra gauntlets x2, haywire grenades, hekatrix with agoniser
Raider - Night shield, flicker field

It wasn't till after I was adding up the points for this revised list that I remembered that I had already given the Wyches haywire grenades, but had completely forgotten to write it down... >.<

Hellions (9) - Helliarch with agoniser

Hellions (10) - Helliarch with agoniser

Fast Attack: 216

Reavers (3) - Heat lance, cluster caltrops, arena champ

Reavers (3) - Heat lance, cluster caltrops, arena champ

Heavy: 200

Cronos - Spirit vortex

Cronos - Spirit vortex

So this list only has a few changes. Such as substituting the dark lances on the Trueborn for blasters and dropping them down to 9 to give them a raider. Other than that I made the changes to the Reaves to drop the agonisers and swap the blasters for heat lances.

The other thing I was thinking about was if I combine the two units of Hellions and dropped the unit down to 14, it would give me enough points to throw in a bare bones Ravager. If I did that I'm sure I could find someplace to shave some points so I could upgrade it with Night shields and Flicker fields. Any thoughts about this?

[thecactusman17]

That would be great! The easiest way to make those points available would be to remove the Arena Champions from the Reaver squads.

[DrLove42]

Yeah, the arena champ ain't needed. All hes doing there is giving the Ld bonus...and chances are if they need to take a test, they're all dead anyway

Maybe minx the hellions unit...

I'm not sure on the reavers, full stop. I love them in games, mine never fail to earn their points back and rarely end a game without 3 pain tokens. However mine are specialised and only turboboost with double caltrops in a larger group. Usually a group that tries to multitask is a waste...they need bulk to be succesful, so either make them turboboosting bombing evils...or max out the lances. But your limited in AT so maybe...but in such small points its a gamble putting so many points in one place...

Same goes for Klaivex in Incubi....when you factor in his base cost, then the upgrade, then the powers he very expensive for what he is. And in such a small squad, he can get whiffed very fast

Other than that I do like the list. I think you may be a little short on AT, but that just opinion....

[Toxik]

Chances are that I'll end up combining the Hellions after the first few games. Same goes for the Reavers too, it doesn't really change the point cost or their gear whatsoever. It really just depends if they're doing what I want them to the way they are right now.

The main reason that they are in 2 units for now is because I want to see how well they'll work that way for this list. I feel like the list has a pretty good flow to it by taking the combat drug and buffer (Cronos) units in pairs. So I'm rather interested in seeing how well it plays out on the tabletop. If I'm not happy with it, that's when I'll combine the units and drop in a ravager. That way the ravager will help with the decrease in the number of units while also giving me more AT.

The main reason I like having the Klaixex with onslaught with the Incubi is purely nostalgic. It reminds me of my old Khorne lord lol. Granted, it's a dumb reason all in all, but it makes me smile. If I was to take this list to a tournament It would be dropped and the Venom would get the upgraded for the splinter cannon (Still might after the nostalgia fades away.).

Thanks for all the advice so far guys. It's been keeping me thinking and has helped a lot. :D

[DrLove42]

The main reason I like having the Klaixex with onslaught with the Incubi is purely nostalgic. It reminds me of my old Khorne lord lol. Granted, it's a dumb reason all in all, but it makes me smile. If I was to take this list to a tournament It would be dropped and the Venom would get the upgraded for the splinter cannon (Still might after the nostalgia fades away.).

There is absolutly nothing wrong with playing something in a list because you like it. The DE codex is the most balenced ones of all and theres nothing out there that can stop you taking an army because you think something is cool

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

I personally wouldnt take the chronos's and take ravagers cause you have no anti armor except for a couple of blasters and youll have no problem racking up pain tokens. I would also go with one squad of six reavers, three just doesnt cut the mustard

carry on

[Toxik]

Right now my AT stands at 3 Dark Lances, 2 Blasters and 2 Heat Lances. I could count the Haywire Grenades but tank hunting is a secondary role, at best, for the the units that have them. If I end up combining the Hellions I'll be dropping in a Ravager, bring me up to 6 Dark Lances. All in all I'm not to worried out the amount of AT that I have right now. It's at a happy medium for my play style but can be adjusted as needed.

The Cronos is a very under appreciated unit in my opinion. For 100 points a pop I feel like they're a bit of a steal. For those points, you get a unit that if left alone by the enemy can beef your squads up drastically in just one turn. But if even the possibility of them doing that makes them to much of a target, they won't be that big of a loss if they die. On top of that, they are T7, something that just one squad typically can't take down on their own. My opponent will either have to mass fire on it with basic troops, or, dedicate bigger guns to do the job. So the distraction they'll give for the 1-2 turns it's going to take to shoot them down will cost them dearly for ignoring so many other things in such a fast moving army. And that's only if I chose to make them easy targets. In addition to all of that they can also do a decent job of holding their own in CC if they really really need to (Yes, I know power fists/klaws can/will drop them like flies. But those drop all sorts of things like flies in CC). If given Spirit Probes they can dish out another pain token on top of one from shooting. That's 4 extra pain tokens to do with as I please for that turn.

On the other hand I also recognize the benefits of the Ravagers. But before I make a decision to drop Cronos for Ravagers in this list. I will see just how well I like the Cronos based off my play style and what I believe they are going to do to complement it.

[Toxik]

What are people's thoughts on small Beast Master packs vs. Mandrakes? I'm planing on dropping the Cluster Caltrops and Arena champs from the Reavers for sure and that would leave me with just enough points to run a small pack. I was thinking something along the lines on 1 Beast Master 2 Razerwing flocks and a clawed fiend as a small shock trooper squad. I would have to shave a few more points to fit in the fiend. But I already have a good idea where I can take those points from. Or my other choice would be a small squad of Mandrakes. They would fill the same roll as shock troopers, but I haven't been sold on them yet.